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Gooner
2009-06-04, 04:28
Hello everyone.

I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a Squeezebox to function fault free.

If you own one of these, could you let me know how long you've had it and whether it continues to work :)

This is in relation to a dispute I'm having with DABS.COM

All input greatly received.

Thanks
Simon

amey01
2009-06-04, 04:39
How long is a piece of string? Don't forget, we're talking about a computer product so I certainly wouldn't expect 20++ years like other appliances. My SB3 is three years old and no problems yet. I don't have any reason not to see why it wouldn't double that easily and possibly make 10 years without an issue.

There are many on this very forum using almost 10 year old SlimMP3s and SB1s - they're still supported by SC and are presenting no issues. Great work Slim Devices!!

stevek1006
2009-06-04, 04:45
My oldest is an original Squeezebox dating back to 2003. It works just fine and has never had a problem. I also have Squeezebox 2 from 2005 and Duet I purchased sometime in 2008. I have had no problems with any of them.

Siduhe
2009-06-04, 04:59
I have an SB2 purchased when it was released in 05 which continues to work well and my better half is still running his original SB purchased in 03/04.

As already noted, there are people still running the SLIMP3 (first released in 2001) quite happily.

SB products do fail (wireless card issues, display issues and power issues seem most common - also people dropping them!), but my sense is that they are generally fairly reliable.

SD will also try to repair failed units even if out of warranty, so if you're in dispute with DABS, they might be persuaded to pay the $90 charge* plus P&P if they aren't prepared to give you a new unit.

*not sure if this is still the flat price for an attempted repair

mherger
2009-06-04, 05:38
> I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a
> Squeezebox to function fault free.

I'm still using my SliMP3 from 2003.

--

Michael

Gooner
2009-06-04, 05:46
Thanks for your feedback so far. This all sounds positive and helps my case. If anyone else has a squeezebox classic, please let me know how long you've had it and if it continues to function.

Thanks
Simon

Keymaster
2009-06-04, 06:05
2 Classics, 2 years old each, and my brother has a pair as well, maybe a year older.

No issues at all. Nothing but goodness =).

Best of luck!

agillis
2009-06-04, 06:45
Electronic devices that have no moving parts and generate no (or very little) heat can last almost forever. I have had a classic for 5 years with no problems.

Siduhe
2009-06-04, 06:51
Thanks for your feedback so far. This all sounds positive and helps my case. If anyone else has a squeezebox classic, please let me know how long you've had it and if it continues to function.

Thanks
Simon

Also have 2 Classics (what I would call the SB3). Both purchased in early 2006. One used daily, one used pretty much non-stop for two years but now replaced by a Boom and out of general use (in one of our spare bedrooms)*

Both working fine save for a very slight amount of screenburn on the display in one particular area, on the daily use one.

* This thread has now made me count up the number and variety of SD products in occasional and regular use in our home. Gulp.

sc53
2009-06-04, 07:21
3 Classics, all purchased before the Logitech takeover, all running fine. No display burn in or any other issues.

funkstar
2009-06-04, 07:31
Both my SB3's (now the classic) were bought in early 2006, both going scrong.

My SB2, SB and SliMP3 all still work too.

jth
2009-06-04, 07:39
I bought all my squeezeboxen shortly after they were released. I've had some problems with the original squeezebox (not Classic) but not with other models.

2 SLIMP3s - no problems since original purchase
3 Squeezebox 1s - 1 VFD display died about 1.5 years after purchase, replacement part purchased. 1 unknown problem on the main circuit board about 2 years after purchase (different unit). This one got put back in the box for spare parts and replaced with a SB3.
1 Squeezebox 3 - no problems since original purchase

Hope this helps - despite those problems I will continue to buy more as
required :)

cliveb
2009-06-04, 08:56
If you own one of these, could you let me know how long you've had it and whether it continues to work :)

This is in relation to a dispute I'm having with DABS.COM
I have an SB2 bought in April 2005 which has never missed a beat.

What's the problem you're having with DABS? I've done a lot of business with them and they always seemed pretty reputable to me. I have had cause to return a couple of items and they never made a fuss.

If you've got a SB that's gone faulty within a year, then they are obliged to get it fixed (or replace it) under warranty. If it's more than a year old, then it'll be out of warranty and they're perfectly within their rights to refer you to the manufacturer.

aubuti
2009-06-04, 09:02
Thanks for your feedback so far. This all sounds positive and helps my case. If anyone else has a squeezebox classic, please let me know how long you've had it and if it continues to function.
All my SBs are fine. The only hardware problems I have had have been with pre-production versions used during beta testing. And when those problems popped up, Slim Devices / Logitech cheefully replaced them free of charge. More importantly, those specific issues do not seem to be problems with the final production models. My SB "family includes:

-- 1 x SB3 (aka "SB Classic") purchased in December 2005
-- 2 x SB2s that I purchased second hand in 2006 (original owners probably purchased in 2005, but one of them could have been 2006)
-- 2 x SB Duet Receivers acquired in Jan-Mar 2008 (both pre-production units. One has a defective RJ-45 port, an issue that appears to have been resolved before the final product started shipping.)
-- 3 x SB Duet Controllers acquired between Sept 2007 and Jan 2008 (2 pre-production units had to be replaced because of a UUID problem)
-- 1 x SB Boom acquired June 2008

toby10
2009-06-04, 09:13
Hello everyone.

I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a Squeezebox to function fault free.

If you own one of these, could you let me know how long you've had it and whether it continues to work :)

This is in relation to a dispute I'm having with DABS.COM

All input greatly received.

Thanks
Simon

Maybe some details on your situation would result in some more insightful responses.
I think the SB3's have a 2 yr mfr warranty. I'm guessing DABS is a reseller of SB players? Not sure why they would be involved past a possible 30 day return policy.

My SB3 is 2 years old, used often, no problems.

seanadams
2009-06-04, 09:55
Like most solid state products, Squeezebox products have a "bathtub curve" reliability characteristic. This means if you're going to have a failure it is most likely to occur out-of-the-box (shipping trauma) or within the first few weeks of ownership (faulty component). After that, it should last until the DCI (direct cranial implant) MP3 players become available.

peterw
2009-06-04, 10:02
After that, it should last until the DCI (direct cranial implant) MP3 players become available.

MP3? I figured the DCI gear would at least be Red Book PCM quality. MP3 sampling artifacts pumped straight in the neurons would be so LAME.

pfarrell
2009-06-04, 10:23
Gooner wrote:
> I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a
> Squeezebox to function fault free.

I've got three SB-1 from ~2003 that work fine. Plus a Duet, Boom, and
Transporter. I've never had a failure. I've got 25 or more Slim Years of
experience.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

iPhone
2009-06-04, 10:36
Hello everyone.

I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a Squeezebox to function fault free.

If you own one of these, could you let me know how long you've had it and whether it continues to work :)

This is in relation to a dispute I'm having with DABS.COM

All input greatly received.

Thanks
Simon

Simon, hello and welcome to the Forums and the wonderful world of Squeezebox.

Sorry to hear your having a problem. Knock on wood my Squeezeboxes are no longer under warranty and all still doing fine. I think your real question should be whether or not your unit is still within the factory warranty. If not, I am sorry to say this but you are most likely barking up the wrong tree. After all it is an electronic device and parts can just up and die even with the best of manufacture's intentions (which is the case with SC). It could have been something you did or just a simple power surge.

Hardly anything lasts for ever and if its electronic it might not come back on the next time any of us hits the power button.

BTW, I am assuming you checked to make sure it wasn't something simple like the power supply being dead?

iPhone
2009-06-04, 10:39
After that, it should last until the DCI (direct cranial implant) MP3 players become available.

So THAT'S what your working on next! The DCI anyway NMP.

andynormancx
2009-06-04, 11:06
Maybe some details on your situation would result in some more insightful responses.
I think the SB3's have a 2 yr mfr warranty. I'm guessing DABS is a reseller of SB players? Not sure why they would be involved past a possible 30 day return policy.

Looks like you are thinking about it from a US point of view. Dabs are a UK company and UK consumer law is _very_ different to the US.

In the UK it is the retailers responsibility if a product fails before a within a reasonable period. What the reasonable period is deemed to be can extend to years, not just the typical US 30 days return policy.

Any warranty a manufacturer might choose to provide is in addition to the rights the consumer has under the UK Sale Of Goods act.

Robin Bowes
2009-06-04, 11:08
Gooner wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a
> Squeezebox to function fault free.
>
> If you own one of these, could you let me know how long you've had it
> and whether it continues to work :)
>
> This is in relation to a dispute I'm having with DABS.COM
>
> All input greatly received.

Simon,

As you're talking about dabs.com and your handle is "gooner" (Arsenal
fan?) I am assuming you're in the UK?

You might find this interesting:

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

R.

Goodsounds
2009-06-04, 11:27
Simon,

As you're talking about dabs.com and your handle is "gooner" (Arsenal
fan?) I am assuming you're in the UK?

You might find this interesting:

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

R.

Out of curiosity I scanned the linked material - Very interesting.

I'm not a retailer, but I don't think a rule like that would work very well in the US. I'd be interested to know more about how it works in the UK.

This would seem to really put sellers in a precarious position. Maybe that's why things always seem so expensive in the UK (and not just because of exchange rates and/or VAT). They would need to pay for such a long term "guarantee" some how, and maybe the high prices are the result.

Gooner
2009-06-04, 11:45
What's the problem you're having with DABS? I've done a lot of business with them and they always seemed pretty reputable to me. I have had cause to return a couple of items and they never made a fuss.

If you've got a SB that's gone faulty within a year, then they are obliged to get it fixed (or replace it) under warranty. If it's more than a year old, then it'll be out of warranty and they're perfectly within their rights to refer you to the manufacturer.

Not true!

ok - the scenario is that I bought my SB3 in April 2006, it recently died i.e. no activity when plugged into the mains.

I since became aware that under uk law, the Sales and Supply of Goods Act 1994 stipulates that the supplier (not manufacturer) is liable to either refund, repair or replace the product for anything up to 6 years from purchase if the product fails within a reasonable period.

DABS responded today stating that it was not reasonable to expect an SB3 to be without fault after 36 months.

Now it is up to me, the purchaser, to prove otherwise. All the responses in this thread are a great help because I can state e.g. 20 people have posted experiences of SB3 working for 3 years plus, and none have had a catastrophic failure such as mine in such a short period. Therefore it is reasonable that I should expect my unit to last for a comparable amount of time to that of fellow owners and as it hasn't, there was clearly an inherent fault with the unit.

So we'll see where it goes next.

Gooner
2009-06-04, 11:49
Out of curiosity I scanned the linked material - Very interesting.

I'm not a retailer, but I don't think a rule like that would work very well in the US. I'd be interested to know more about how it works in the UK.

This would seem to really put sellers in a precarious position. Maybe that's why things always seem so expensive in the UK (and not just because of exchange rates and/or VAT). They would need to pay for such a long term "guarantee" some how, and maybe the high prices are the result.

I don't think many people were aware of the law so they never pursued their rights.

It was on the BBC1 news segement last week which brought it to my attention. This is big stuff. It completely undermines the whole extended warranty business!!

Like some people have reclaimed unlawful bank charges, it is feasible that you could reclaim extended warranty costs if you could prove it was missold. I suspect a test case is just around the corner!!

cliveb
2009-06-04, 11:58
the scenario is that I bought my SB3 in April 2006, it recently died i.e. no activity when plugged into the mains.

I since became aware that under uk law, the Sales and Supply of Goods Act 1994 stipulates that the supplier (not manufacturer) is liable to either refund, repair or replace the product for anything up to 6 years from purchase if the product fails within a reasonable period.

DABS responded today stating that it was not reasonable to expect an SB3 to be without fault after 36 months.
The problem is that the law is phrased in very vague terms, using next-to-meaningless terms such as "reasonable period". Who gets to decide what that is? The way I read it, if something goes wrong after 3 years, it's up to the buyer to prove that it hasn't lasted for "a reasonable period". If the seller refuses to agree with you, you'll have to take them to court. And then the only people who will win are the lawyers.

FWIW, I think a solid state device like a Squeezebox can reasonably be expected to last almost indefinitely once it gets beyond the infant mortality period. But of course a court of law might not agree.

Gooner
2009-06-04, 12:09
The problem is that the law is phrased in very vague terms, using next-to-meaningless terms such as "reasonable period". Who gets to decide what that is? The way I read it, if something goes wrong after 3 years, it's up to the buyer to prove that it hasn't lasted for "a reasonable period". If the seller refuses to agree with you, you'll have to take them to court. And then the only people who will win are the lawyers.

FWIW, I think a solid state device like a Squeezebox can reasonably be expected to last almost indefinitely once it gets beyond the infant mortality period. But of course a court of law might not agree.

Totally agree with you except I'd hope it would be reasonably cheap to go to the small claims court without a lawyer... I'll have to look into that.

Given that pretty much everyone here, who owns the product, agrees that the unit should last more than 3 years, I have opinion on my side. Who decides what a reasonable amount of time is? Majority rule?

nolesrule
2009-06-04, 12:26
Is it just me or does it seem unreasonable for a government to force a retailer to guarantee a product for longer than the manufacturer guarantees it?

Gooner
2009-06-04, 12:29
Is it just me or does it seem unreasonable for a government to force a retailer to guarantee a product for longer than the manufacturer guarantees it?

For this purpose, no of course I don't!! :)

Goodsounds
2009-06-04, 12:38
Is it just me or does it seem unreasonable for a government to force a retailer to guarantee a product for longer than the manufacturer guarantees it?

The law is whatever is enacted. We have a lot of laws that are puzzling to some people too. How about the remnants of prohibition and the blue laws that still exist in the US? Complete nonsense.

American law tends to be a bit more hands-off and what may be described as perhaps less paternal than what is found in Europe. There's a lot of national legislation that is mandated by the EU (I don't know whether the case for this or not, but no matter). We look that way and scratch our heads over what they do and they look back at us and do the same thing.

Siduhe
2009-06-04, 12:48
The law is whatever is enacted. We have a lot of laws that are puzzling to some people too. How about the remnants of prohibition and the blue laws that still exist in the US? Complete nonsense.

American civil law tends to be a bit more hands-off and what may be described as perhaps less paternal than what is found in Europe. There's a lot of national legislation that is mandated by the EU (I don't know whether the case for this or not, but no matter). We look that way and scratch our heads over what they do and they look back at us and do the same thing.

The current version of the Sale of Goods Act was amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which implements an EU Directive. It may seem a bit odd, except of course that the free movement of goods within the EU is a fundamental premise. It makes sense (at least to me) that if goods have to move freely for the benefit of consumers then those consumers should be granted the same standard of protection across those member states. And the prior standard varied greatly across member countries (from min of 1 year in the UK up to 10 years for certain types of goods in France and Germany, I believe).

peter
2009-06-04, 12:51
Gooner wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I'm interested in views as to how many years I could expect a
> Squeezebox to function fault free.
>
> If you own one of these, could you let me know how long you've had it
> and whether it continues to work :)
>
> This is in relation to a dispute I'm having with DABS.COM
>
> All input greatly received.
>

Well, there's the bathtub curve:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

I have a SliMP3, an SB1, 4 SB3's and a Duet.
One of the 4 SB3's failed after six months, everything else is still
humming nicely.

Regards,
Peter

toby10
2009-06-04, 15:23
The problem is that the law is phrased in very vague terms, using next-to-meaningless terms such as "reasonable period". Who gets to decide what that is? The way I read it, if something goes wrong after 3 years, it's up to the buyer to prove that it hasn't lasted for "a reasonable period". If the seller refuses to agree with you, you'll have to take them to court. And then the only people who will win are the lawyers.

FWIW, I think a solid state device like a Squeezebox can reasonably be expected to last almost indefinitely once it gets beyond the infant mortality period. But of course a court of law might not agree.

Yeah, I'd guess the vagueness is the "gotcha". If this is the way they do it in GB/EU, why not just state the period the seller will honor this consumer right of "reasonable time". i.e. DABS will fix or replace this unit for up to 4 years after the date of the sale (see details below, BTW we sell magnifying glasses on page 117). :)

30 days seems a drop in the bucket compared to this GB/EU law, but then it's rather plain and indisputable at 30 days. For me I get automatic warranty extensions on such purchases via my credit card so my 2 year SB3 warranty is really 3 years.

Nonreality
2009-06-04, 17:34
Out of curiosity I scanned the linked material - Very interesting.

I'm not a retailer, but I don't think a rule like that would work very well in the US. I'd be interested to know more about how it works in the UK.

This would seem to really put sellers in a precarious position. Maybe that's why things always seem so expensive in the UK (and not just because of exchange rates and/or VAT). They would need to pay for such a long term "guarantee" some how, and maybe the high prices are the result.

Exactly what I was thinking. Really puts retailers in a difficult position as they may have to cover many things that a manufacturer would normally doe. Manufacturers plan for warranty costs, retailers really don't.

MrSinatra
2009-06-04, 18:59
i think i got my SB2 in oct 05. so far still works.

iPhone
2009-06-04, 20:05
Totally agree with you except I'd hope it would be reasonably cheap to go to the small claims court without a lawyer... I'll have to look into that.

Given that pretty much everyone here, who owns the product, agrees that the unit should last more than 3 years, I have opinion on my side. Who decides what a reasonable amount of time is? Majority rule?


This is nuts. It's an electronic device. It lasted longer then the warranty. Suck it up, help out the world economy and buy a new SB3. Your probably going to lose in court. The SB3 has not been around long enough to create fair established expectancy. It lasted for more then half the time they have been out.

Europe wants it all. The lowest price and if it fails after the warranty but before I think it should I want a free one. At the most if the law even made a little sense you should only receive fair market value for a 3 year old used SB3. Did I mention it's electronics.

A cap or regulator could have failed and that's why it's called Consumer Electronics.

seanadams
2009-06-04, 21:57
This whole thing makes no sense to me. A sane law might say that the dealer should expected to cover the product during the period where it is likely to fail. But what we're all telling you is that after a year or so it is very UNlikely to fail.

So I hardly see how it's fair that a retailer, who if they're doing well has collected perhaps 20-30% on the whole deal, should be liable for the full value of the product ages after they've sold it.

In other words, this is an unreasonable law if it's really as you're interpreting it. And I have no skin in the game here, just saying.

If the UK really wants this kind of coverage built in to every product that is sold there, then people are effectively saying they want to be forcibly charged for an "extended warranty" with every purchase - because that's the only way that this policy could be sustained.

jo-wie
2009-06-05, 00:29
Europe wants it all. The lowest price and if it fails after the warranty but before I think it should I want a free one. At the most if the law even made a little sense you should only receive fair market value for a 3 year old used SB3. Did I mention it's electronics.

I think that's a little bit to general.

For example, in Germany you have an implied warranty of 2 years and the reseller is responsible. The point is, in the first 6 month it is supposed that the fault do already exist when the unit was delivered and the reseller has to prove if not. That's easy for the customer. But for the rest of the time the customer has to prove that the fault do already exist during delivery. That's not easy for the customer.

This warranty is based on an European act! Edit: I have to say a EU directive. Sorry I'm not a lawyer.

But in most cases the manufacturer provide a limited guarantee which is better and the issue is handled by the manufacturer and not the reseller.

htrd
2009-06-05, 00:41
From what I understand about this process, it is not enough to show that many SB3s are still running after 3 years. A retailer has no responsibility to replace a product that has simply reached the end of its life, even if the life of your particular SB3 is shorter than average. You would need to show that the failure was due to a latent fault present at purchase, or that the SB3 lacked the expected durability.

So a better question to ask here might be whether anyone who bought an SB3 thought it was an investment that should last many years, or whether they thought it might reach its normal end of life within a few years?

cliveb
2009-06-05, 00:49
So I hardly see how it's fair that a retailer, who if they're doing well has collected perhaps 20-30% on the whole deal, should be liable for the full value of the product ages after they've sold it.
I'm not defending this law, but playing devil's advocate for a moment, perhaps it's an indirect way of weeding out products that routinely fail to give reasonable service. Over time, multiple retailers will notice that they're hurting because of repeated failures of a particular item, and make a business decision to stop selling them. Eventually said item disappears from the marketplace, to everyone's benefit (apart from the manufacturer of said shoddy item). BTW: Let me make it absolutely clear that I'm NOT suggesting the Squeezebox falls into this category!

Back to reality: I reckon the way some people on this thread are interpreting this law is not realistic. It seems that quite a few UK laws are open to unreasonable interpretation by the man in the street, in a way that was never intended when it was written. If this specific dispute went to court, I strongly suspect that DABS would win. Gooner is just unlucky: sometimes sh*t happens.

sebp
2009-06-05, 01:16
The point is, in the first 6 month it is supposed that the fault do already exist when the unit was delivered and the reseller has to prove if not. That's easy for the customer. But for the rest of the time the customer has to prove that the fault do already exist during delivery. That's not easy for the customer.
The (simplest) reality about this EU act is that the reseller is only responsible for delivering the consumer a good that conforms to its standard use and advertised specifications (could be colour, noise, width, power consumption, whatever ...).
A hardware fault, unless it existed at the moment of the delivery, is not endorsed by this EU act.

Gooner
2009-06-05, 01:20
My issue here is not that I need to replace this particular SB3 as I already have. It actually failed around the 2 year mark and that means basic cost of ownership was around 100 per annum.

I expected it to last longer.

Now, the law (which I didn't define) states that the supplier, not manufacturer is liable if the goods fail in an unreasonable length of time.

I admit I have had some benefit from the product, so I'm not expecting a full refund, but I would accept compensation for future loss of enjoyment from the product. So if we expect an SB3 to last 5 years and it died after 2, then an amount of compensation for the remaining years seems reasonable. Else they could finance the repair of it.

Cliveb makes an excellent point and in the long run, this shift in power back to the consumer may result in better quality goods in the long run. They don't make things like they used to :)

By the way, the state of the world economy is not my responsibility. I already pay in excess of 30k a year tax which goes to support the millions of useless pen-pushing administrators in the non-productive government offices. Don't get me started ;)

andynormancx
2009-06-05, 03:43
If the UK really wants this kind of coverage built in to every product that is sold there, then people are effectively saying they want to be forcibly charged for an "extended warranty" with every purchase - because that's the only way that this policy could be sustained.
This law has been in effect in the UK for at least 30 years. The reality is that people rarely take advantage of it, except when something breaks early on.

In fact most people in the UK seem to think that everything has a 12 warranty and nothing more.

I suspect that if this went to the small claims court that Dabs wouldn't even bother to contest it. It just isn't worth their while.

In the UK you can take a small claims court action just by filling in forms online and paying as little as 25. People rarely do though. Most of the people I do know who have taken an action against a large company won, simply because the company didn't bother to contest the claim.

bradcook
2009-06-05, 04:40
I bought my original SB2 back in 2005 and it worked flawlessly until Nov last year when it just died one evening.

Fortunately it was only the power supply - so a 5 replacement original supply from Patrick at At-tunes got me up and running again.

My Duet, Receivers and Boom are less than a year old so I cant really comment on those.


Warranties are a difficult one.

Any specific time is quite arbitrary, and I think you should expect a reasonable life time for a product, which is what the UK law details. I certainly wouldnt want to spend the best part of 300 on a Duet if I only expected it to last a year - but how long should it last - 3 years, 5, 10 ????

I certainly wasnt a happy bunny after my original ipods battery want down to only holding charge for 10 mins within 18 months of purchase. Not what I expected after paying the 399 at the time. I know battteries are consumer items that dont last forever - but would expect more than this (especially as it wasnt replaceable at the time).

Dont forget that companies (and I certainly dont include Slim/Logitech here) can cut corners by using cheaper parts that could outlast the warranty but not have an especially long life.

nwplace
2009-06-05, 06:58
In the UK you can take a small claims court action just by filling in forms online and paying as little as 25. People rarely do though. Most of the people I do know who have taken an action against a large company won, simply because the company didn't bother to contest the claim.

You should bear in mind that if the other party does bother to turn and wins the case then you may be liable to some or all of their costs at the discretion of the court.

toby10
2009-06-05, 07:49
You should bear in mind that if the other party does bother to turn and wins the case then you may be liable to some or all of their costs at the discretion of the court.

Which is why having such vague terms and ambiguity is just plain silly! :)

Richie
2009-06-05, 08:16
So I hardly see how it's fair that a retailer, who if they're doing well has collected perhaps 20-30% on the whole deal, should be liable for the full value of the product ages after they've sold it.


They're not liable for the full value. The law is vague but it basically says that the retailer is liable, for up to six years, for what a reasonable person would expect.

In practice, if we could assume that a reasonable person would expect a squeezebox to last four years given that it is a premium product and that it's mode of use means it sits somewhere and does it's job. If the squeezebox failed after three years the retailer would only be liable for 25% of the value. The retailer is only liable for the usage you have been deprived of not the usage you have had.

This is a reason why many products cost more in the UK. I'm sure it's a cost that many small businesses competing online underestimate.

Richard

peter
2009-06-05, 10:10
andynormancx wrote:
> toby10;429283 Wrote:
>
>> Maybe some details on your situation would result in some more
>> insightful responses.
>> I think the SB3's have a 2 yr mfr warranty. I'm guessing DABS is a
>> reseller of SB players? Not sure why they would be involved past a
>> possible 30 day return policy.
>>
>>
> Looks like you are thinking about it from a US point of view. Dabs are
> a UK company and UK consumer law is _very_ different to the US.
>
> In the UK it is the retailers responsibility if a product fails before
> a within a reasonable period. What the reasonable period is deemed to be
> can extend to years, not just the typical US 30 days return policy.
>

Isn't that an EU directive?

Regards,
Peter

andynormancx
2009-06-05, 10:15
andynormancx wrote:
> toby10;429283 Wrote:
>
>> Maybe some details on your situation would result in some more
>> insightful responses.
>> I think the SB3's have a 2 yr mfr warranty. I'm guessing DABS is a
>> reseller of SB players? Not sure why they would be involved past a
>> possible 30 day return policy.
>>
>>
> Looks like you are thinking about it from a US point of view. Dabs are
> a UK company and UK consumer law is _very_ different to the US.
>
> In the UK it is the retailers responsibility if a product fails before
> a within a reasonable period. What the reasonable period is deemed to be
> can extend to years, not just the typical US 30 days return policy.
>

Isn't that an EU directive?


It was in place back in 1976, before we implemented the later EU directive.

Gooner
2009-06-11, 01:37
Interesting now - DABS have responded with:

"Under the sales of goods act, the onus is on the customer to prove that the item is faulty. This called 'reversal of burden of proof'. Under this law, you would need to provide sufficient evidence in terms of an inherent fault report, either from the manufacturer or an independent computer expert. Once this information is received we can do one of 3 things. Repair Replace Partial Refund depending age and usage."

What is a computer expert? :-p

MrSinatra
2009-06-11, 02:22
the EU is nuts, this is the kind of thing you get when you centralize and socialize gov't and invest power in it rather than individuals. i heard the EU has rules and regs for evey possible thing under the sun. the example that struck me was specs for brake pad thickness or something like that for BICYCLES. does the EU really need to handle that? can't entire euro-countries, or an even more local form of gov't handle that?

in any case, i would suppose you'll have to ask DABS what the law/EU says makes one a 'computer expert,' as i am sure they will have it measured, weighed, and codified somewhere. my guess is some kind of official, stamped, duplicated certification filed in triplicate at the central bureau for tediousness.

toby10
2009-06-11, 05:05
Interesting now - DABS have responded with:

"Under the sales of goods act, the onus is on the customer to prove that the item is faulty. This called 'reversal of burden of proof'. Under this law, you would need to provide sufficient evidence in terms of an inherent fault report, either from the manufacturer or an independent computer expert. Once this information is received we can do one of 3 things. Repair Replace Partial Refund depending age and usage."

What is a computer expert? :-p

Uh huh. :)

But it sure sounded good when all that the EU consumers knew was "EU law dictates that a consumer purchase is covered for the expected life of the product". Once you read deep into the bureaucatic written mumbo-jumbo it amounts to very little actual protection. Then you have varying interpretations of such mumbo-jumbo, where and how it applies, procedures to collect on such warranties, etc... (i.e. your interpretation of "expected product life" is vastly different than DABS interpretation, and only now do you see what you must do to comply with documentation).

Funny "fine print" warranty example (not related to consumer law):
Years ago there was a car wiper blade mfr that offered a "lifetime warranty" on their $19.95 (per blade) wipers. Sure sounds great, don't it? Until you read the fine print....
1. return the wiper blade and allow 6 to 8 weeks processing (so you can't drive in rain, snow, or fog for 8 weeks)
2. just pay a small "processing fee".........guess how much the small processing fee was..........yes.........you guessed it.....$19.95

But it all sure sounded good on the box! :)

Letten
2009-06-11, 05:56
the EU is nuts, this is the kind of thing you get when you centralize and socialize gov't and invest power in it rather than individuals. i heard the EU has rules and regs for evey possible thing under the sun. the example that struck me was specs for brake pad thickness or something like that for BICYCLES. does the EU really need to handle that? can't entire euro-countries, or an even more local form of gov't handle that?

Sure they can, but most of this kind of regulation is actually driven by the wish to create the single market (like the US). I havn't heard about breaking pads, but as it is a safety item I wouldn't be surprised if it was true that they need to meet certain specifications. We actually use our bicycles a lot overhere :-), so it matters.

It actually makes good sense to have one set of rules instead of 24! imagine being a manufacturer of braking pads for bicycles and you want to sell them in Europe and each copuntry had their own set of rules.

I'm not saying they don't go to far some times, and very often the rules are a compromise, but I think that most of it makes sense when you know the reasoning behind it.

Letten
2009-06-11, 06:26
To my knowledge the EU regulation states a minimum of 2 years to make a claim. An error the first 6 months after delivery is assumed to have been present at the time of delivery unless the seller can prove that it was not the case - so this is like a "warranty". After the 6 months the burdon of proof is reversed.

Here is a list of the different claims periods in europe (translated my...), as you can see it's not the same everywhere.

Country / Claim period
Belgium No specific period. Reasonable time.
Bulgaria 2 years
Cyprus 2 years
Denmark 2 years
Estonia 2 years
Finland No specific period
France 2 years
Greece 2 years
Holland No limit
Ireland No limit
Iceland 2 years, and 5 years on certain goods which have a substantial longer life expectancy
Italy 2 years
Latvia 2 years
Lithuania No limit
Luxemburg 2 years
Malta 2 years
Norway 2 years, and 5 years on certain goods which have a substantial longer life expectancy
Pland 2 years
Portugal 2 years
Rumania 2 years
Slovakia 2 years in general, and at least 1 year for used goods.
5 years on certain goods which have a substantial longer life expectancy
Slovenia 2 years
Spain 3 years
UK 6 years
Sweden 3 years on goods bought after april 1. 2005
( 2 years on goods bought before april 1. 2005)
Tcheck rep. 2 years
Germany 2 years
Hungary 2 years
Austria 2 years

Pale Blue Ego
2009-06-11, 08:35
If this thread can help you make your case, then here is some data from an owner of 6 SB systems over a period of 7 years. I have a SliMP3, a SB1G, three SB3s, and a Duet system. All of them work flawlessly, and the only problem I ever had was that 2 months after I bought the SB1G, the display failed. Slim sent me a replacement, along with instructions on how to swap out the old one. No problems since.

iPhone
2009-06-11, 09:15
My issue here is not that I need to replace this particular SB3 as I already have. It actually failed around the 2 year mark and that means basic cost of ownership was around 100 per annum.

I expected it to last longer.

Now, the law (which I didn't define) states that the supplier, not manufacturer is liable if the goods fail in an unreasonable length of time.

I admit I have had some benefit from the product, so I'm not expecting a full refund, but I would accept compensation for future loss of enjoyment from the product. So if we expect an SB3 to last 5 years and it died after 2, then an amount of compensation for the remaining years seems reasonable. Else they could finance the repair of it.

Cliveb makes an excellent point and in the long run, this shift in power back to the consumer may result in better quality goods in the long run. They don't make things like they used to :)

By the way, the state of the world economy is not my responsibility. I already pay in excess of 30k a year tax which goes to support the millions of useless pen-pushing administrators in the non-productive government offices. Don't get me started ;)

This line of thinking is unreasonable and more importantly illogical. By making the Retailer responsible, all that does is force a retail out of business. Its not his product, why should he have to stand behind it. Additionally as Sean said, after expenses, the retail if he was lucky only cleared 25%. Its hard enough to stay in business as it is, but having to give a customer a new unit what cost him 60% of retail that he only made 20% on, again illogical.

This does nothing to sort out bad products, all it does is put the person with the consumer's best interest at heart in an unattainable position. Another moronic law! The manufactur should be the one named in this law. That way they bear the cost, can either offer a recall, redesign the product, or stop making it! That also stops bad goods from China and other countries from coming in if they know they are going to bear this expense.

Lastly, just how in the world is a Retailer going to be able to make a decision as to whether to carry the latest and greatest product that was just released when he is going to be responsible for it failing before the consumer thinks it should?! And yes things don't last as long as they used to because when it comes to most consumer electronics they are now disposable. If your CDP, DVDP, or VCR failed would you have it repaired? Most likely not, its cheaper to buy a new one that is going to be better then the one you owned.

MrSinatra
2009-06-11, 12:14
Sure they can, but most of this kind of regulation is actually driven by the wish to create the single market (like the US). I havn't heard about breaking pads, but as it is a safety item I wouldn't be surprised if it was true that they need to meet certain specifications. We actually use our bicycles a lot overhere :-), so it matters.

It actually makes good sense to have one set of rules instead of 24! imagine being a manufacturer of braking pads for bicycles and you want to sell them in Europe and each copuntry had their own set of rules.

I'm not saying they don't go to far some times, and very often the rules are a compromise, but I think that most of it makes sense when you know the reasoning behind it.

why stop there?

why not one WORLD gov't making rules for the entire planet?

oh yeah, the mighty UN is already trying to do that.

sorry, but i reject your explanation. it is lunacy to have such micro management from one power... what often happens is the rule shouldn't apply to a given LOCAL situation, but there is no recourse.

btw, we also ride bicycles.

bobertuk
2009-06-11, 12:26
Is the EU just becoming a Federal Government? Possibly an equivalent to the USA but with only 24 states so far?

The United States of Europe!

Hmmm....

andynormancx
2009-06-11, 17:02
This does nothing to sort out bad products, all it does is put the person with the consumer's best interest at heart in an unattainable position. Another moronic law! The manufactur should be the one named in this law. That way they bear the cost, can either offer a recall, redesign the product, or stop making it! That also stops bad goods from China and other countries from coming in if they know they are going to bear this expense.
And there lays the heart of the problem with making a law to force the manufacturer to cover a long statuary warranty period. How on earth does the consumer get some random manufacturer in China pay up when something fails 6 months after purchase ?

In fact for that matter, who is the manufacturer ? Most companies now don't do their own manufacture of electronics products. So is the "manufacturer" the company that built the goods, the company whose name is on the goods, the wholesaler who brought them into the company ?

At least with the retailer as the one responsible they are clearly defined and it gives the consumer someone to go back to with the faulty goods.

Am I right in saying that in the US, under the law, that the consumer bears pretty much all of the risk of faulty products (excluding any extra cover that some manufacturers may choose to give) ?

andynormancx
2009-06-11, 17:07
btw, we also ride bicycles.
Sure you do and you also appear to have federal regulations on how bicycles should be put together:

http://tinyurl.com/koqrfz

"Handbrakes shall be tested at least ten times by applying a force sufficient to cause the handlever to contact the handlebar, or a maximum of 445 N (100 lbf), in accordance with the loading test, 1512.18(d)(2), and shall be rocked back and forth with the weight of a 68.1 kg (150 lb) rider on the seat with the same handbrake force applied in accordance with the rocking test, 1512.18(d)(2)(iii); there shall be no visible fractures, failures, movement of clamps, or misalignment of brake components"

"Stopping distance. A bicycle equipped with only handbrakes shall be tested for stopping distance by a rider of at least 68.1 kg (150 lb) weight in accordance with the performance test, 1512.18(d)(2) (v) and (vi), and shall have a stopping distance of no greater than 4.57 m (15 ft) from the actual test speed as determined by the equivalent ground speed specified in 1512.18(d)(2)(vi)."

etc, etc

Keymaster
2009-06-11, 17:27
MP3 sampling artifacts pumped straight in the neurons would be so LAME.

Maybe I've certifiably lost it...but I thought this was hysterical...like snorting+laughing hysterical....LOL....

Nice one!!

nolesrule
2009-06-11, 18:44
And there lays the heart of the problem with making a law to force the manufacturer to cover a long statuary warranty period. How on earth does the consumer get some random manufacturer in China pay up when something fails 6 months after purchase ?

In fact for that matter, who is the manufacturer ? Most companies now don't do their own manufacture of electronics products. So is the "manufacturer" the company that built the goods, the company whose name is on the goods, the wholesaler who brought them into the company ?

At least with the retailer as the one responsible they are clearly defined and it gives the consumer someone to go back to with the faulty goods.

Am I right in saying that in the US, under the law, that the consumer bears pretty much all of the risk of faulty products (excluding any extra cover that some manufacturers may choose to give) ?

The manufacturer is the company that offers the manufacturer warranty, or in absence of that, the company that puts its name on the label (or its successors in interest).

Letten
2009-06-11, 22:39
Sure you do and you also appear to have federal regulations on how bicycles should be put together:

http://tinyurl.com/koqrfz

"Handbrakes shall be tested at least ten times by applying a force sufficient to cause the handlever to contact the handlebar, or a maximum of 445 N (100 lbf), in accordance with the loading test, 1512.18(d)(2), and shall be rocked back and forth with the weight of a 68.1 kg (150 lb) rider on the seat with the same handbrake force applied in accordance with the rocking test, 1512.18(d)(2)(iii); there shall be no visible fractures, failures, movement of clamps, or misalignment of brake components"

"Stopping distance. A bicycle equipped with only handbrakes shall be tested for stopping distance by a rider of at least 68.1 kg (150 lb) weight in accordance with the performance test, 1512.18(d)(2) (v) and (vi), and shall have a stopping distance of no greater than 4.57 m (15 ft) from the actual test speed as determined by the equivalent ground speed specified in 1512.18(d)(2)(vi)."

etc, etc

Socialist bastards ;-)

Goodsounds
2009-06-11, 23:42
Many of you have very strong opinions, and yet don't seem (from your comments) to understand these issues very well.




Am I right in saying that in the US, under the law, that the consumer bears pretty much all of the risk of faulty products (excluding any extra cover that some manufacturers may choose to give) ?

In practice, I would say that this comment is mostly not correct. One can get stung with a problem just after a warranty period ends, but usually the responsible party will help when it is clear to not be a case of abuse/misuse and the owner is being reasonable.

I think I know the origin of this UK retailer's strategy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

toby10
2009-06-12, 03:29
........
Am I right in saying that in the US, under the law, that the consumer bears pretty much all of the risk of faulty products (excluding any extra cover that some manufacturers may choose to give) ?


Yup. Sounds harsh compared to the EU consumer warranty / life expectancy expectations, no?

But in all practicality, it's pretty much the same as the EU. It sure doesn't look good for the OP to resolve his broken device with DABS after the two year mfr warranty has expired, even with all of those lovely words in the EU consumer law. In the end, more than likely, he'll end up repairing/replacing his 3 year old device himself just as if he had purchased it in the US. :)

andynormancx
2009-06-12, 12:43
Many of you have very strong opinions, and yet don't seem (from your comments) to understand these issues very well.

In practice, I would say that this comment is mostly not correct. One can get stung with a problem just after a warranty period ends, but usually the responsible party will help when it is clear to not be a case of abuse/misuse and the owner is being reasonable.

I didn't ask what happens in practice. I very clear ask who bears the risk under the law in the US. As far as I am aware the retailer and manufacturer has very little responsibilities to replace/repair faulty goods. Am I mistaken ?

And for the record I don't have very strong opinions on the matter, clearly both different approaches work out reasonably ok in practice.

Goodsounds
2009-06-12, 16:31
I didn't ask what happens in practice. I very clear ask who bears the risk under the law in the US. As far as I am aware the retailer and manufacturer has very little responsibilities to replace/repair faulty goods. Am I mistaken ?

Your question is really not relevant, because most companies do not restrict their behavior to the letter of the law. In other words, most are more generous and consumer friendly than is required. Bad reputations are more costly than replacing (when not required to) the odd item here and there that are out of warranty. But of course there are exceptions.

Some companies (mostly retailers) are known to always accept a return of their goods anytime, no matter what condition, no questions asked. I suspect they believe the benefits of doing this far outweigh the cost.

Google can help you find whatever interests you concerning the American UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). There are minor differences from place to place. I'm not sure why you would care.


And for the record I don't have very strong opinions on the matter, clearly both different approaches work out reasonably ok in practice.

My comment was directed at some of the earlier vitriolic posts, and my aim in making the comment before quoting your comment was to indicate I was referring to others. Sorry if that was not clear.

MrSinatra
2009-06-14, 11:59
Sure you do and you also appear to have federal regulations on how bicycles should be put together:

http://tinyurl.com/koqrfz

"Handbrakes shall be tested at least ten times by applying a force sufficient to cause the handlever to contact the handlebar, or a maximum of 445 N (100 lbf), in accordance with the loading test, 1512.18(d)(2), and shall be rocked back and forth with the weight of a 68.1 kg (150 lb) rider on the seat with the same handbrake force applied in accordance with the rocking test, 1512.18(d)(2)(iii); there shall be no visible fractures, failures, movement of clamps, or misalignment of brake components"

"Stopping distance. A bicycle equipped with only handbrakes shall be tested for stopping distance by a rider of at least 68.1 kg (150 lb) weight in accordance with the performance test, 1512.18(d)(2) (v) and (vi), and shall have a stopping distance of no greater than 4.57 m (15 ft) from the actual test speed as determined by the equivalent ground speed specified in 1512.18(d)(2)(vi)."

etc, etc

did i say we weren't nuts?

socialism is coming here too, its awful.