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jasondunn
2009-05-30, 09:12
I'm just about ready to give up here. I had my Squeezebox working quite reliably with a Linksys WRT54G, but it didn't give quite enough coverage for my whole house, so I switched to an 802.11n router to get more WiFi coverage: the Linksys WRT610N. I've configured the WRT610N to run in dual-network mode: the 5ghz band is pure 802.11n, and the 2.4Ghz band is pure 802.11g. The Squeezebox remote and player both are able to connect to the 802.11g network initially, but the player loses connection frequently and I see button on the front go yellow.

Last night I configured both the player and the remote to use a static IP - why Logitech hid the ability to do that in the initial setup only is beyond me - and I thought that would help. It doesn't - the player still can't reliably get a connection after it wakes up. The remote always connects just fine. I have to pull the power plug on the player and let it re-start before I can get it to work.

Any suggestions from other owners of the WRT610N? Are there some magic settings that help?

I know it's hard for Logitech to test every router out there, but Linksys is the 800 pound Gorilla in wireless routers and I'm frustrated the Squeezebox isn't compatible with this router since it's the most high-end one Linksys makes. Is there an approved list of 802.11n routers that Logitech knows will work with the Squeezebox? I'm getting frustrated that I keep throwing money at this problem - before this 610N router I had the Linksys WRT310N but switched to the WRT54G because the 310N wasn't compatible with the Squeezebox.

This product has way too many problems related to WiFi networking, and as much as I like it when it works, I'd never recommend it to anyone else - it's far too fragile when it comes to maintaining a reliable connection.

pablolie
2009-05-30, 10:56
The WRT610 had worked flawlessly for me. Standard setup, I think. But Most of my old SB use static addresses. The newer ones may be using DHCP, because I seem to remember they just worked out of the box.

toby10
2009-05-30, 11:28
That really sucks. My Boom uses WiFi to my WRT54GL and is absolutely flawless in it's WiFi reception at about 40 feet through 3 walls. But you may be needing further coverage and it seems the Duet is a bit more touchy with WiFi.

I don't think using static IP's would help with WiFi, though I use plain old DHCP.

Just to verify: remote = SBC Controller? and player = SBR Receiver?

You have tried the new router in G only? Repositioning the router? You are certain there are no other WiFi's near you possibly causing interference?
Only other thing might be to go back to your old router and use HomePlugs. Maybe returning the router would be about the same $$$ as HomePlugs?? :(

jasondunn
2009-05-30, 16:37
But Most of my old SB use static addresses. The newer ones may be using DHCP, because I seem to remember they just worked out of the box.

Yes, the newer ones definitely use DHCP - it works just fine out of the box, but it's not stable. It bombs out, and it's amazing how quickly it does so - I think now the most I test it, it's actually WORSE with a static IP.

I'm trying something different: giving both the player and the controller a DHCP Reservation. I've got my fingers crossed that will help...

jasondunn
2009-05-30, 16:41
Just to verify: remote = SBC Controller? and player = SBR Receiver?

Yeah, I never know what to call them - controller and player seem to make sense. ;-)


You have tried the new router in G only?

The Squeezebox can't do 5 Ghz, so it only sees the 2.4 Ghz 802.11g network. The 802.11n network has a different name, so I'm not even trying to connect to that.

[QUOTE=toby10;427970]Repositioning the router? You are certain there are no other WiFi's near you possibly causing interference?[QUOTE=toby10;427970]

I don't think it's a signal strength issue - my laptop sitting a few feet away has a near-full signal strength, and it's connected to the same network. The controller never has an issue connecting to the network.

As I mentioned in the above message, I'm going to try this DHCP Lease thing and see if that helps...

toby10
2009-05-30, 18:04
Yeah, I never know what to call them - controller and player seem to make sense. ;-)



The Squeezebox can't do 5 Ghz, so it only sees the 2.4 Ghz 802.11g network. The 802.11n network has a different name, so I'm not even trying to connect to that.

[QUOTE=toby10;427970]Repositioning the router? You are certain there are no other WiFi's near you possibly causing interference?[QUOTE=toby10;427970]

I don't think it's a signal strength issue - my laptop sitting a few feet away has a near-full signal strength, and it's connected to the same network. The controller never has an issue connecting to the network.

As I mentioned in the above message, I'm going to try this DHCP Lease thing and see if that helps...

Yes, I know it can't connect to N. But I'm wondering if the router running in "mixed mode" (N + G + ?) might cause the router to be less stable.

I'm no networking guru but I was always under the impression that DHCP just handed out (assigned) IP's to any devices on the network versus manually assigning an IP to each device. If that's all it does then I can't see how that would affect WiFi connectivity.

I've always run DHCP on my network (I have no clue how to setup/run static or fixed IP's), 7 devices with 3 WiFi units including the Boom, never had an issue. But then, I'm not using the Duet.

Any chance you have conflicting IP's? Any other networks around you?

eganders
2009-05-30, 18:18
I'm just about ready to give up here. I had my Squeezebox working quite reliably with a Linksys WRT54G, but it didn't give quite enough coverage for my whole house, so I switched to an 802.11n router to get more WiFi coverage

I think you've used the wrong fix. Assuming your WRT54G is the type with the removable antennas (they just unscrew), acquire some better antennas for your unit. Linksys and other companies sell them (they don't have to be from Linksys). Better antennas will increase the range and deliverable signal - both transmit and receive - to and from your wireless g (and b) devices all over your house. This will likely resolve your issue if the signal is marginal today (as opposed to being utterly non-existent, which would require a different fix).

In case you're wondering, the Linksys aftermarket antenna's claim a 7dbi increase in signal strength. With every 3db delivering double the signal, that's about 5x the signal strength of the stock antennas. I'm not sure if they actually meet that spec, but there is no doubt they make a generous difference everywhere I've used them.

pablolie
2009-05-30, 19:55
[QUOTE=jasondunn;428039]
I'm no networking guru but I was always under the impression that DHCP just handed out (assigned) IP's to any devices on the network versus manually assigning an IP to each device. If that's all it does then I can't see how that would affect WiFi connectivity.


because of power saving features that may be implemented on a device. So if the device and the router don't agree on the finer aspects of the protocol, the router may assume the device relinquished the address and aggin it elsewhere, and/or ignore any packets destined to the device.

The power saving aspects (vital for a device like the controller to be truly practical) were initally an issue and created all sorts of havoc with wireless. I did get the 610N to overcome the issue, and it works very well.

There is a way to log protocol issues and submit them to the support team - I haven't done it in a while so I will not try.

But I have a Duet (controller/receiver) running 7.3.2 flawlessly with a WRT610N, and have not done anything special as I configured the router.

What wireless security protocol do you use? That may be another thing to check.

pablolie
2009-05-30, 20:00
Oh, and make absolutely sure you have the latest firmware versions for both the Controller and Receiver - earlier Duets had a well documented large number of wireless issues. And for a number of early ones Logitech issued RMAs.

jasondunn
2009-05-30, 21:35
Any chance you have conflicting IP's? Any other networks around you?

It's definitely not conflicting IPs - there are a lot of IPs in the pool, and no conflict according to the router. Besides, if it was conflicting IPs, I'd have trouble with the initial connect - that works, it just drops off at random after the first successful initial connection.

Other networks around me? Yup, you bet. I live in the suburbs - there are five other networks that my laptop can see. But who doesn't have that problem? Logitech can't have designed this for use out on a farm where there are no other networks around...

jasondunn
2009-05-30, 21:42
What wireless security protocol do you use? That may be another thing to check.

WPA on the 802.11g network that the Squeezebox is connecting to. Latest firmware on the router. 1.00.00 B18

jasondunn
2009-05-30, 21:50
Oh, and make absolutely sure you have the latest firmware versions for both the Controller and Receiver

Hmm. I'm aware of how to update the software on the controller - I just checked and there's nothing newer - but after a few minutes poking around in the Web control panel for the player, I can't find any sort of software update function. Where do I look for that?

Oh, and here's my signal strength info right now:

< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
< 30 : 7 : 0%
< 40 : 336 : 3% #
< 50 : 5481 : 42% #####################
< 60 : 2009 : 15% #######
< 70 : 3082 : 24% ###########
< 80 : 2109 : 16% ########
< 90 : 1 : 0%
< 100 : 0 : 0%
>=100 : 0 : 0%
max : 80.000000
min : 28.000000
avg : 55.572131

I switched my WRT610N from "Standard Channel > Auto" to manually assign it to 2.417Ghz. I think that's improved things...no drop off so far, but we'll see.

jasondunn
2009-05-30, 21:52
I think you've used the wrong fix. Assuming your WRT54G is the type with the removable antennas (they just unscrew), acquire some better antennas for your unit. Linksys and other companies sell them (they don't have to be from Linksys). Better antennas will increase the range and deliverable signal

Hmm. I hadn't thought of that - thanks, that's an option. Though I'd hate to have wasted $150 on this nice 802.11n router for nothing... ;-) But maybe if I can't get the Squeezebox to work reliably, switching back to the WRT54G and boosting the signal might be a good solution.

I swear I don't remember having near these number of problems back in the 802.11b days...things were much easier then. ;-)

toby10
2009-05-31, 05:01
It's definitely not conflicting IPs - there are a lot of IPs in the pool, and no conflict according to the router. Besides, if it was conflicting IPs, I'd have trouble with the initial connect - that works, it just drops off at random after the first successful initial connection.

Other networks around me? Yup, you bet. I live in the suburbs - there are five other networks that my laptop can see. But who doesn't have that problem? Logitech can't have designed this for use out on a farm where there are no other networks around...

Yes, and I have 8 networks around me. :)
But this is where you may be getting interference or ch overlap. If your network is sharing a ch with a close by network these signals can interfere with each other. If both networks are on the default ch 6, you change yours to ch 11, you could see as much as a 30% gain in signal strength.

EDIT: Ah, I see you tried changing ch's and seems to have improved a bit. *fingers crossed for you*
This is why I've been harping on possible WiFi interference issues and other nearby networks. :)

What is odd about your problem is that the historical, more common WiFi problem when using the Duet seems reversed on your setup. Most seem to have WiFi issues with the Controller (connection, re-connection) not the receiver/player. This is why I suspect some sort of interference. I assume both devices are used near each other and the SBC works great while the SBR has issues. So what's the difference? Placement. Possibly your SBR is getting lots of interference from other devices in your AV rack?

Maybe try temporarily moving the SBR further away from your other stereo components to see if that helps it stay connected?

I dunno, just throwing out ideas for ya. :)

jasondunn
2009-05-31, 09:44
EDIT: Ah, I see you tried changing ch's and seems to have improved a bit. *fingers crossed for you* This is why I've been harping on possible WiFi interference issues and other nearby networks.

Indeed...what shocks me though is that the WiFi reception inside the player/receiver seems to be extremely weak. This morning I woke the player up from sleep and it connected and played music just fine - that's a good thing, it typically has problems with that.


I assume both devices are used near each other and the SBC works great while the SBR has issues. So what's the difference? Placement. Possibly your SBR is getting lots of interference from other devices in your AV rack? Maybe try temporarily moving the SBR further away from your other stereo components to see if that helps it stay connected?

That might be a factor. The good news is that there's nothing around the player except a speaker. The bad news is that the player is almost touching the speaker and I don't have much space to move it. Here's where you can see a photo of that:

http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/93858/

Look on page six.

I'll keep fiddling - thanks to everyone for the feedback and suggestions, I'm impressed with this community. :-)

jasondunn
2009-05-31, 09:45
Oh, and make absolutely sure you have the latest firmware versions for both the Controller and Receiver - earlier Duets had a well documented large number of wireless issues. And for a number of early ones Logitech issued RMAs.

How do I update/check the software on the receiver? I didn't see anything about software updates inside the Web-based control panel.

toby10
2009-05-31, 10:03
Indeed...what shocks me though is that the WiFi reception inside the player/receiver seems to be extremely weak. This morning I woke the player up from sleep and it connected and played music just fine - that's a good thing, it typically has problems with that.



That might be a factor. The good news is that there's nothing around the player except a speaker. The bad news is that the player is almost touching the speaker and I don't have much space to move it. Here's where you can see a photo of that:

http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/93858/

Look on page six.

I'll keep fiddling - thanks to everyone for the feedback and suggestions, I'm impressed with this community. :-)

Well, for starters, that room is FAR too neat and orderly so your WiFi signal doesn't have enough clutter to bounce off of for good WiFi reception.
At least that's always been *my* theory about better WiFi and lots of clutter. :)

Just kidding. :)

Being right next to the wall and the speaker may be causing WiFi reception issues. Again, TEMPORARILY, move the player away from the wall and speaker and see if the signal improves. Not suggesting you keep your player on your coffee table, just a diagnosis test to see if it improves your WiFi signal.

eganders
2009-05-31, 10:51
Indeed...what shocks me though is that the WiFi reception inside the player/receiver seems to be extremely weak. This morning I woke the player up from sleep and it connected and played music just fine - that's a good thing, it typically has problems with that.



That might be a factor. The good news is that there's nothing around the player except a speaker. The bad news is that the player is almost touching the speaker and I don't have much space to move it. Here's where you can see a photo of that:

http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/93858/

Look on page six.

I'll keep fiddling - thanks to everyone for the feedback and suggestions, I'm impressed with this community. :-)

I am really impressed with your shelving. That came out really well, the colors are great, and doing the same thing on both sides with the asymmetric pattern is really cool and different. Congrats!

1.) How physically close are your neighbors and their networks?

2.) I see that your SBR is in a bit of a cubbyhole. What is the shelving made from? How about the back wall? Is there a room on the other side or is that an external wall?

3.) How have you run the wiring / cabling necessary for power and signal (where necessary) to your various devices on the shelves? It might help with the diagnosis, but I'm curious as well ;)

4.) Where is your router relative to your SBR in distance and height? What does the signal have to penetrate to get to your SBR? Is it on the same plane or a different floor of the house, etc.?

I second toby10's suggestion to experiment with moving the SBR out away from the shelves to see how that impacts it's reception. Maybe you could even set it where you use your laptop when it works well? If not, just get it off the shelving and away from the wall and let's see what happens.

Labarum
2009-05-31, 11:05
http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/93858/



Wow. All that work. You clearly have a well finished job.

I may do something similar, but very different, as I have rather trad tastes.

Most of my effort would go into DIY speakers in or on the wall.

jasondunn
2009-05-31, 13:16
1.) How physically close are your neighbors and their networks?

It's your typical street full of houses in the suburbs - meaning houses on both sides of the street, side by side. I haven't gone knocking on doors to figure out who has WiFi routers mind you... ;-)


2.) I see that your SBR is in a bit of a cubbyhole. What is the shelving made from? How about the back wall? Is there a room on the other side or is that an external wall?

Shelves = wood. Not sure what kind, but the outside pieces are panels, I think of thicker/heavier wood, the inside are made of a different kind of wood. The back wall is the outside wall of my house - not much behind there.


3.) How have you run the wiring / cabling necessary for power and signal (where necessary) to your various devices on the shelves? It might help with the diagnosis, but I'm curious as well ;)

Vacuflo tubes - if you check out the article I linked to and look at the photos, you'll see what it all looks like.


4.) Where is your router relative to your SBR in distance and height? What does the signal have to penetrate to get to your SBR? Is it on the same plane or a different floor of the house, etc.?

It's in my basement furnace room. It's elevated up onto a high shelf, well away from any large metal objects, etc. I'd say it's about 15 feet away from the receiver, diagonally, through one layer of floor. Every WiFi router I've had for the past eight years has been in the same basic location.

Here's the thing I find very puzzling about going down the road being a signal strength issue: I had *zero* signal strength problems with the WRT54G router, and the 610N is supposed to be stronger/better/faster in every way (MIMO antennae, etc.). I really do appreciate everyone's input, but I'm quite certain it's more about the router itself and how it interacts with the receiver than pure signal strength issues.

At any rate, so far no drops outs today since I switched from Auto Channel to one specific channel - so maybe that's the only tweak I'll need. We'll see!

toby10
2009-05-31, 15:01
It's your typical street full of houses in the suburbs - meaning houses on both sides of the street, side by side. I haven't gone knocking on doors to figure out who has WiFi routers mind you... ;-)
......................

Here's the thing I find very puzzling about going down the road being a signal strength issue: I had *zero* signal strength problems with the WRT54G router, and the 610N is supposed to be stronger/better/faster in every way (MIMO antennae, etc.). I really do appreciate everyone's input, but I'm quite certain it's more about the router itself and how it interacts with the receiver than pure signal strength issues.

At any rate, so far no drops outs today since I switched from Auto Channel to one specific channel - so maybe that's the only tweak I'll need. We'll see!

You don't have to knock on any doors. Your computers WiFi software likely shows you any/all available networks in it's range. Usually this data shows the network name, freq ch and #, A-B-G-N, signal strength. From this data, find the strongest network signals that are not your network, see what ch (freq) they are on, choose a different ch for your network. It is best to choose ch's 1 or 6 or 11 if in the US. So if nearby strong signals are on 1 and 6, you should set your network to ch 11. If the nearest strong signals are both on ch 6 then choose ch 1 or 11 for your network.

Signal strength is important. But even a strong signal will have difficulties fighting another strong signal on the same ch/freq. This may well have been what plagued your previous router. All routers are shipped preset to ch 6. Most people, including your neighbors, never change from the default ch 6, making ch 6 the most crowded 2.4 ghz WiFi G freq out there. :)

jo-wie
2009-05-31, 16:15
It's your typical street full of houses in the suburbs - meaning houses on both sides of the street, side by side. I haven't gone knocking on doors to figure out who has WiFi routers mind you... ;-)

But this could be a solution. I've done it and I did agree with the neighbors (door by door) to use the channels in order 1, 6, 13 (in Germany 13 is allowed), 1, 6, 13, 1, .... Less interferences and everybody is happy.

slate
2009-05-31, 17:23
I also had issues when I fired up my router for the first time.
5-6 WLANs in my hood was running the sa,e channel (default)-

You can use heatmapper to have a look
http://www.ekahau.com/products/heatmapper/overview.html

jeremygray
2009-06-06, 07:18
Just to chime in: I'm running a 610N with my Boom and, once the G side of the network was set to a manual channel based on the channels of the networks around me, the connection has been rock solid.