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tamanaco
2009-03-30, 15:31
I was wondering why the MusicIP mixer had not been updated for a while. I went over to the MusicIP forum and found this recent thread. http://forums.musicip.com/index.php?showtopic=4286 It "appears" that that the main developer/architect (Wendell) has moved on. It would be a pity if no one picks up on the development of this mixer soon.

Maybe Logitech with its deep pockets can make a move on MusicIP (buy it from Parasoft) and incorporate its functionality in SC. Now that would really give the SC server a boost. I'm pretty sure that "if" the intellectual capital of MusicIP were to be made available for sale... a bunch of other companies in the digital music delivery business would also make a move on it.

Pipedream
2009-03-31, 06:16
Wendell is still listed on the Management Team page, so it could just be speculation. Hopefully anyway

http://musicip.com/about/team.jsp

andynormancx
2009-03-31, 06:51
His LinkedIn profile list his current job as "Director of Ad Optimization at AT&T Interactive" and his previous job as CTO at MIP.

http://www.linkedin.com/ppl/webprofile?action=gwp&id=4270989&pvs=pp&authToken=5Pw6&authType=name&trk=ppro_geturl&lnk=sign_in

sander
2009-03-31, 09:45
I too would hope that Logitech would buy MusicIP for better integration and to improve the technology, but it doesn't look likely in this climate, and they're likely to have their hands full development-wise working on the Duet/SqueezePlay issues for a while to come.

My best hope is that MusicIP stays stable and understood long enough that it can remain an integral, if not improving, part of the Squeezecenter ecosystem.

To be honest though, Squeezecenter 7.3.2 is good enough for me that if MusicIP integration became an issue I just wouldn't upgrade any more. I can live within the limitations and minor irritations of the current system for a long time, and MusicIp has become that important to me.

b33k34
2009-03-31, 12:49
I rather suspect that the business plan for MusicIP involved getting bought by someone. Reading further on their forums it's some time since they got any funding and development stopped early last year. I can't see much evidence of updates since then.

I suspect that when Apple bought a competing product Music IP effectively died.

There's no version for Intel macs and i don't see much chance of it arriving which is a real shame as I loved it when i ran Slimserver on a Windows box.

Genius integration please.

tamanaco
2009-04-08, 07:10
Genius integration please.

I would not mind having Genius integration in SC, but I think MusicIP creates better mixes. I believe Genius mixes are somehow tied to ratings and do no create mixes with obscured tracks that exist in my library. In other words, when I listen to Genius generated mixes the results do not surprise me. Genius mixes appear (to me) to be predictable and the songs selected too familiar. MusicIP generated mixes can be tuned to the sound-signature of the seed songs. I also feel that the granularity of the settings of MusicIP allow for a wider range of variety and can be adjusted to generate unpredictable mixes based on the seed track mood and can be restricted/unrestricted to specific genre/genres.

thing-fish
2009-04-08, 07:23
To be honest though, Squeezecenter 7.3.2 is good enough for me that if MusicIP integration became an issue I just wouldn't upgrade any more. I can live within the limitations and minor irritations of the current system for a long time, and MusicIp has become that important to me.

This news of Wendell and MusicIP definitely saddens me, and I just wanted to DEEPLY second the sentiment of the above paragraph. MusicIP is the #1 way that me and my family interact with our Squeezeboxen. We have a very large library with everything from hip-hop to classical and a lot of Frank Zappa, and it makes fantastic mixes for us. And of course its filtering functions keep the Zappa out of my wife's mixes and the George Michael out of mine. If an update broke MusicIP compatibility, I would not install that update.

So yes, MusicIP, please keep your product going, and Logitech, please keep it deeply integrated with SqueezeCenter. I love the idea of Logitech taking on MusicIP development, too!

socistep
2009-04-08, 08:39
This news of Wendell and MusicIP definitely saddens me, and I just wanted to DEEPLY second the sentiment of the above paragraph. MusicIP is the #1 way that me and my family interact with our Squeezeboxen. We have a very large library with everything from hip-hop to classical and a lot of Frank Zappa, and it makes fantastic mixes for us. And of course its filtering functions keep the Zappa out of my wife's mixes and the George Michael out of mine. If an update broke MusicIP compatibility, I would not install that update.

So yes, MusicIP, please keep your product going, and Logitech, please keep it deeply integrated with SqueezeCenter. I love the idea of Logitech taking on MusicIP development, too!

I have never installed this but it was on my to-do list, seems a shame that development has ended.

Genius seems to have taken off from an iTunes perspective so MusicIP integration would be a string in the Logitech bow if it was taken on

Moonbase
2009-04-08, 09:51
Not to forget that Genius doesn’t make "real neutral mixes" but internally "prefers" what Apple want us to hear in the mixes. The "SoundCheck numbers" also already contain a "secret code" hinting at that.

Maybe that’s one of the reasons why MusicIP creates better mixes.

Personally, I’d be really unhappy if one great and (rather) unbiased music service like MusicIP would die. Or someone "inappropriate" would buy them out.

I much prefer being "sold into" something by its quality (like music, hard- or software) than by proprietary and hidden marketing tricks and background affiliations.

Nonreality
2009-04-08, 12:53
I much prefer being "sold into" something by its quality (like music, hard- or software) than by proprietary and hidden marketing tricks and background affiliations.

Amen Bro! I second the above post. (plus I had to add more characters for the post to work)

Siduhe
2009-04-08, 14:11
This news of Wendell and MusicIP definitely saddens me, and I just wanted to DEEPLY second the sentiment of the above paragraph. MusicIP is the #1 way that me and my family interact with our Squeezeboxen. We have a very large library with everything from hip-hop to classical and a lot of Frank Zappa, and it makes fantastic mixes for us. And of course its filtering functions keep the Zappa out of my wife's mixes and the George Michael out of mine. If an update broke MusicIP compatibility, I would not install that update.

So yes, MusicIP, please keep your product going, and Logitech, please keep it deeply integrated with SqueezeCenter. I love the idea of Logitech taking on MusicIP development, too!

Thirded.

MIP has always worked flawlessly for me, and everyone I show it to thinks it's an amazing concept. I do think there's an opportunity here for Logitech to embed it more deeply within SC (making it easier to setup and install). No idea if this fits their long term strategy or is even a possibility, but can only say that I also wouldn't install an update which removed MIP functionality.

Philip Meyer
2009-04-09, 00:29
>Genius integration please.
Genius won't include many file formats. It doesn't allow filters. It generally produces worse results than MusicIP.

Philip Meyer
2009-04-09, 00:32
>MIP has always worked flawlessly for me, and everyone I show it to
>thinks it's an amazing concept. I do think there's an opportunity here
>for Logitech to embed it more deeply within SC (making it easier to
>setup and install). No idea if this fits their long term strategy or
>is even a possibility, but can only say that I also wouldn't install an
>update which removed MIP functionality.

It features heavily in my household too.

My worry isn't so much that an SC update could break the functionality, but more that MIP servers will eventually be switched off and there would be no way to analyse new music.

Wirrunna
2009-04-09, 00:40
>
It features heavily in my household too.

My worry isn't so much that an SC update could break the functionality, but more that MIP servers will eventually be switched off and there would be no way to analyse new music.

Phil, it will still analyze music only slower. I maintain a PC and SB3 at a friend's beach house with no internet access and new music is still analyzed and able to be mixed.

tamanaco
2009-04-09, 05:54
Phil, it will still analyze music only slower. I maintain a PC and SB3 at a friend's beach house with no internet access and new music is still analyzed and able to be mixed.

Correct, but not having the MusicIP server to accelerate the analysis will make it very inconvenient for "new" users with large libraries to integrate the MusicIP function and for existing user that want to listen to mixes based on new library additions ASAP.

<Dream> It also removes the "possibility" of adding a "suggest-a-track" function/service based on the signatures of tracks in the MusicIP server database. In other words, an enhanced client could be developed that would "display" the name(s) and link(s) to sample previews of one or several tracks in the MusicIP server which have similar signatures to that of the currently playing song. </Dream> (This could be a revenue generating service)

I'd also add my name to the list of those that can't live without MusicIP and without its excellent derivative the SugarCube plugin.

Philip Meyer
2009-04-09, 11:45
>Phil, it will still analyze music only slower.
That's good to know.

neilcoburn
2009-04-09, 15:07
I would like to echo all that's been said. Music IP is the 'real' genius, in that it really does create special moments in my collection which nothing else does. Apple's Genius seems little more than a random mix tool.

I agree that from a purely commercial point of view Logitech should embrace Genius. But for the sake of the many users here who love Music IP and see it as central to the Squeeze experience, I'd urge Logitech to acqure it and therefore secure its future. Given their previous business model apparently failed, Music IP must surely be very affordable?

netim3
2009-04-09, 15:49
There's no version for Intel macs and i don't see much chance of it arriving which is a real shame as I loved it when i ran Slimserver on a Windows box.

Genius integration please.

I run MIP on an intel-based Mac Mini.

tamanaco
2009-04-09, 16:08
Maybe someone should start a thread with a poll to get the approximate number of SC users that have installed and use the MusicIP and SugarCube plugins. If only a few SC users have installed and use the plugins, it might be because there are bit hard to install and setup. I doubt that if users experience the great mixes they generate that they would ever give these plugins up. Once I installed them and got them working (correctly) I was hooked. If Logitech were to get a hold of MusicIP and integrates its functionality in SC so that users can "easily" generate these wonderful mixes... SC could be an even bigger hit. I can just picture sliding controls in the player panel to adjust the mood and filters of the mixes for SugarCube... on the flight.

erland
2009-04-09, 23:48
But for the sake of the many users here who love Music IP and see it as central to the Squeeze experience, I'd urge Logitech to acqure it and therefore secure its future. Given their previous business model apparently failed, Music IP must surely be very affordable?

The question is just what it's worth without the lead developers of MusicIP.

If the knowlege of the MusicIP architecture and source code has been transfered to other persons in the company there has to be a business opportunity for Logitech. However, if this isn't the case the value for Logitech might just be the patents and algorithms behind the mixing and analyzing logic, which might be hard to use without the lead developers. The fact that nothing has been released for almost a year is a bit worrying.

MusicIP is unique and it offers a mixing functionality which is something SqueezeCenter IMHO really needs to take the next step.

tamanaco
2009-04-10, 05:09
The question is just what it's worth without the lead developers of MusicIP.

If the knowlege of the MusicIP architecture and source code has been transfered to other persons in the company there has to be a business opportunity for Logitech. However, if this isn't the case the value for Logitech might just be the patents and algorithms behind the mixing and analyzing logic, which might be hard to use without the lead developers. The fact that nothing has been released for almost a year is a bit worrying.

MusicIP is unique and it offers a mixing functionality which is something SqueezeCenter IMHO really needs to take the next step.


I agree that it would be a lot harder to integrate without the lead developers and lead architect. But... assuming there is nothing there execept for the patents and algorithms... Logitech can dedicate a small developers team to decipher the architecture and code. This way they can save themselves the time and pain required to develop something similar from scratch. What if a competitor like Sonos were to get a hold of MusicIP's intellectual capital? They "might" modify the server to restrict existing clients. Not to mention that if they own the patents they might use them to extract licensing fees. Of course, I'm speculating here as I don't know if MusicIP is available for purchasing or licensing. If it were available, during negotiations and under a NDA, Logitech can uncover details to see if it is worth acquiring it or licensing it. Again, I'm not disagreeing with your statements above, I just like to be a little bit more optimistic and believe that there is something there that Logitech can use to enhance SC. Withhout having to re-invent the wheel, Logitech could integrate MusicIP in SC and even keep MusicIP as an independent entity to generate additional revenue if they acquire them. Something similar to what Logitech did with SD. With a little injection of capital and some good marketing MusicIP can be made into a standard for digital music mixes... not only for SC, but for other digital music player.

raven22
2009-04-10, 06:03
I'd also add my name to the list of those that can't live without MusicIP and without its excellent derivative the SugarCube plugin.

Here another one, Sugarcube is a real gem.

Nonreality
2009-04-10, 11:19
Here another one, Sugarcube is a real gem.
I agree. I had a major crash about 8mths ago and finally reinstalled musicip and Sugarcube. Boy has Sugarcube improved. It works great and now with the sleep functions and menu controls it is a great way to listen to and explore your music.

Dave
2009-04-10, 12:58
I couldn't live without MusicIP! And I'd love to see it closely integrated into SC.

jonstahl
2009-04-10, 19:21
Count me as another enthusiastic Squeezebox user who would be lost at sea without MusicIP. It truly unlocks the enjoyment of Logitech's amazing device.

chroma
2009-04-17, 01:06
my experience has been that once a collection becomes extremely large (ie, > 25k tracks), musicip is rather error prone, and Genius is excellent.

i also use a mac, and the musicip implementation is rather poor.

i'd be happy if either technique were well integrated. or something similar. Genius could be made atleast slightly usable if the itunes plugin would scan for changes in the playlists directory and import just the changed playlist without having to rescan everything.

its very sad to have all of this music and no way to discover it.

in any case, i agree logitech should buy musicip if possible, or at least get a source license and continue the development.

tamanaco
2009-04-17, 06:54
my experience has been that once a collection becomes extremely large (ie, > 25k tracks), musicip is rather error prone, and Genius is excellent.

i also use a mac, and the musicip implementation is rather poor.

What do you mean by "error prone"?... Delays?... Picks tracks that you were not expecting? Fails to pick tracks?

Have you tried MusicIP using the more stable Windows platform? I have listened to Genius generated mixes, but the resulting Genius mixes are not as diverse as the ones that I get from MusicIP. If I don't set any limitations on variety, I get to listen to tracks in my library that I never knew I had. My FLAC library is ~230GB.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. MusicIP bases its mixes on sound signature tags (or if not embedded on tags, on an index of signatures associated with the tracks). The mixes are generated "locally" using these signatures. No need to be connected to the MusicIP server to generate mixes. I'm not too familiar with the technology behind Genius. How exactly are Genius mixes generated? Do they require a connection to iTunes... and if so why?

sander
2009-04-17, 15:20
my experience has been that once a collection becomes extremely large (ie, > 25k tracks), musicip is rather error prone, and Genius is excellent.

I can't comment on Genius, but MusicIP mixes have worked well enough for me on a large collection on a daily basis that I would say its more a matter of personal preference.

I have occasionally seen "drift" where MusicIP picks up on adjacent tracks which are individually close to each other, but slowly morph into a completely different mix style over time, but more common is long multi-hour mixes where the over theme and style are consistent yet innovative. The only exception are occasional albums which seem to flummox MusicIP's coding causing a mix based on any song from that album to bring up largely other tracks on that same album, but its rare.

My feeling is any tech that mixes based on consensus and user submissions (genius, last.fm, pandora) will inevitably lead to a greatest hits area where you'll always end up with the most popular song/artist in any given genre with enough time.

Also I do feel that any greater integration with iTunes will over time hurt Squeezecenter, as it will constantly have to react to changes brought about by Apple and users who don't understand that they effectively using two separate systems to interpret their music. If Squeezecenter ends up being an extension of iTunes, then the system is ultimately doomed.

Philip Meyer
2009-04-18, 03:22
>Also I do feel that any greater integration with iTunes will over time
>hurt Squeezecenter, as it will constantly have to react to changes
>brought about by Apple and users who don't understand that they
>effectively using two separate systems to interpret their music. If
>Squeezecenter ends up being an extension of iTunes, then the system is
>ultimately doomed.
Also, MusicIP handles a much wider range of file formats; Genius for example won't work for any FLAC files. I don't see Genius as a workable solution.

Wirrunna
2009-04-18, 03:30
Wendell Hicken has recently posted this over in the MIP forum "Sorry all, but I'm not really in a position to say anything about MusicIP at this point in time. As has been pointed out, I'm now working for another company, and I no longer represent MusicIP. If and when I can provide more details, I'll see what I can do. In the meantime my blog and twitter feed are easy enough to find from my profile for anyone who cares to follow those."
http://forums.musicip.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4286&view=findpost&p=16706

bobkoure
2009-04-18, 19:20
my experience has been that once a collection becomes extremely large (ie, > 25k tracks), musicip is rather error prone,...

Error prone how? Are you using the MusicIP plugin or SugarCube or SugarCube via Dynamic Playlists?
I'm having no problem with the MIP plugin (50k+ tracks), don't use SugarCube by itself and find SugarCube over Dynamic Playlists loads my poor little C7 based server down to the point that web response takes longer than I like.
Or do you just mean it's picking tracks you didn't expect? You do know about "Mix Variety" and the other settings?

I've not used Genius, but I have found that Pandora mixes get a bit repetitious. Could be I have tastes that don't match up with their library that well. Of course, there's a pretty good match between my music library and my tastes (only skewed by the fact that it's been some twenty years in the building, and my tastes haven't been static over that period of time)

b33k34
2009-04-20, 12:33
Can anyone give some advice on how to get MIP working on an Intel Mac? It's installed and has scanned all my music. I then hide it to get it off the desktop.

The MM icon is appearing next to much of my music but clicking on it doesn't generate a mix. The API is on.

BBear
2009-04-20, 14:00
Can anyone give some advice on how to get MIP working on an Intel Mac? It's installed and has scanned all my music. I then hide it to get it off the desktop.

The MM icon is appearing next to much of my music but clicking on it doesn't generate a mix. The API is on.

I used to have this problem and eventually figured out that you had to have at least one player connected before requesting a mix playlist.

BB

wnshall
2009-04-21, 10:49
My feeling is any tech that mixes based on consensus and user submissions (genius, last.fm, pandora) will inevitably lead to a greatest hits area where you'll always end up with the most popular song/artist in any given genre with enough time.


I agree with you, but I wouldn't lump Pandora into that crowd. In fact I believe Pandora is quite similar to MusicIP. As I understand it, Pandora has created a huge database of songs tagged with musical properties, such as "minor key", "extended vamping", "energetic electric guitars". These tags are assigned by human listeners (presumably properly trained.) When Pandora creates a mix it selects songs with similar musical properties. So this is quite similar to MusicIP, except MusicIP analyzes the music with software instead of having people do the tagging.

In fact, this raises another possibility: somehow harnessing the Pandora engine+database to choose songs from *your* library.

FredFredrickson
2009-04-22, 08:35
This intrigues me. A few years ago I wrote playlisting software that was very similar to music-ip, but used a very different approach to build playlists-

It was a crowd sourcing web-app, that kept a database of every song users had in their library. It analyzed the BPM and a few other things- but it used crowd based tags (and a Bayesian algorithm to make it work for each user), and it created playlists based on certain criteria:

You could pick a mood, or pick a song and make playlists that were similar, different, same tempo, different tempos, and so on.

I never released the client, which is based on the .net framework, and the software only creates winamp playlist files, but maybe this is something the squeezebox community would be interested in ressurecting.

I couldn't tell you if it would ever do as well as music ip- but I've used a similar technology for a photos site to find similar photos, and I've liked it (http://www.stockphox.com). In the end it would depend on the users to really push functionality (tagging), but it could turn into a fun community-type site.

Thoughts?

bobkoure
2009-04-22, 13:23
I don't use LastFM (never got around to figuring it out), but isn't that basically what they do (i.e. crowd sourcing)
Cool idea to use bayesian matching... Seems to me there were a couple of guys at MIT in the mid 80's who were building an artist-suggester (list your favorite artists and get suggestions of other artists you'd probably like) that might have used bayes.

bobkoure
2009-04-22, 13:42
As a BTW, it might be possible for Pandora to make their "find similar music" engine available online. They've already got the engine working for their own streaming app. So... there'd need to be some sort of API, plus track identification. No idea what they already use.
The interesting things for Pandora are that
- they already have the intellectual property: this would push folks into buying subscriptions if they kept it to paying customers only
- they could do this without getting music distribution licenses (which might also work as a "lever" to get agreements from licensing organizations that have been... difficult)

FredFredrickson
2009-04-22, 14:02
bobkoure,

I think the big difference here is this:

While last.fm attempts to guess which bands are similar and other information based on groups of users that tend to like the same bands (much like netflix ratings work), the system I employed puts more emphasis on the actual tags that users create for songs, tags that answer the question : How does this song make you feel? What are three words that best describe this song?

And then I do user grouping, to match you up with other people who rank music similarly to you. (To keep idiots from screweing everybody up)

erland
2009-05-20, 15:33
Just for information, it seems like the MusicIP technology now has been sold to another company:
http://www.amplifiedmusicservices.com/

Unfortunately none of the original developers seems to be part of the purchase, so it remains to be seen if this has a future or not:
http://forums.musicip.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4286&view=findpost&p=17723