PDA

View Full Version : Multi-room listening



spc337
2009-01-07, 14:02
I'm installing a Squeezebox in my loft and would like to have 3 pairs of speakers that can be individually controlled (i.e. Volume, On/Off). I don't need to have different sources play on different speakers simultaneously, just a single (SB3) source.

Does anyone have an Pre-Amp/Amplifier/Receiver (and/or Power Speakers) Suggestion?

Thanks

badbob
2009-01-07, 16:07
What is your budget?

SoulSurvivor
2009-01-08, 02:03
Hi there,

You should be able to do it in part.
I have a Denon AVR-1909, which has a feature where you can wire a 2nd pair of speakers for use in a 2nd room. You can switch between the two sets of speakers from the Denon remote. It cant, however, do 3 rooms and i cant think of an amp/receiver which can do 3 rooms, although i haven't researched it.

So, you can have your SB3 and Denon receiver in living room, wire up your 2nd set of speakers. Then assuming you have a Duet Controller, you can select your tunes from the loft.

Good luck.

badbob
2009-01-08, 07:55
What about a six channel poweramp, using the variable output from the SB's as the volume control? Rotel made a 60W x 6 poweramp for about £600 a while ago. That works if you want three multi-room systems - one SB3 per room and for each stereo use of the amp, but if you want to control each room seperatly you can't. Unless you split the SB3 for all six channels, so as you increase the SB3 it'll adjust all three rooms at the same time. I don't think using a Y splitter to three cables is a good idea you may need a multi-way switch.

aubuti
2009-01-08, 08:13
I'm installing a Squeezebox in my loft and would like to have 3 pairs of speakers that can be individually controlled (i.e. Volume, On/Off). I don't need to have different sources play on different speakers simultaneously, just a single (SB3) source.

Does anyone have an Pre-Amp/Amplifier/Receiver (and/or Power Speakers) Suggestion?

Thanks
Can you run speaker cable through the walls and make holes for wall-mounted volume controls, or do you need a more "non-invasive" installation? If you can tear into things, then a hefty amp and 3 impedence-matching in-wall volume controls would be a good way to go. The amp can be a multi-room amp that specifically supports 3 pairs of speakers, or you could use a conventional amp and wire the speakers in series, paying careful attention to the load/impedence that the amp will support.

How far apart are the rooms? A potential problem with powered speakers is that they will typically get a line-level output from the SB to the speaker. Ordinary line level is unbalanced, and if you run line level cable any distance you have a high probability of picking up interference, usually a humming sound. You could possibly avoid the interference with properly shieled cables, or use baluns to transfer the line level signal over balanced cable like cat5.

spc337
2009-01-08, 13:17
Budget for the amp/pre-amp solution is around $1000 could go higher if there is no obvious solutions at that price point.

I'm thinking Rotel (although more expensive) RSX-1550 which supports multiple zones would do it. I would like to use a single Duet/SB3. The maximum distance to the speakers will be 75ft so I guess I'll need some good speaker wire.

I'm not that familiar with these do it all receivers but I'm guessing that each zones volume can be controller separately without the need of a special volume control? Also, I'm hoping they can all be in "party" mode playing the same thing.

It also isn't clear if their zone outs are amplified? I'm guessing not.

I would prefer a solution at a better price point..

radish
2009-01-08, 14:27
I'm thinking about wiring ceiling speakers in a bunch of rooms in my house. Compared to your $1000 amp I'm going a little cheaper - $60 T-amp and $150 SBR per zone :) Cheap and extremely flexible.

badbob
2009-01-08, 15:01
The problem is he wants each room to be controlled, probably with remote unless he goes into the cupboard and adjusts the pot on the amp- that T-amp does not have remote control. Also if the SB has variable out, that'll effect all rooms rather than individual levels per room. So either he needs three integrated amps, or three SB's, or a amp with RF or RS232 wireless remote volume control.

I personally think a SB in each room is better sense, that way you can control volume per room with the unit itself, if you want the poweramp to control volume (remotely) you're looking at pretty expensive piece of kit- and have option to play different music in each room (and also see what's playing as you have a screen) With that six channel amp somewhere. What if you're in the two rooms without a SB and want to browse music? Better have x-ray vision to see into the room that has the SB. Or have some kind of touchscreen control either SB Duet or touch screen system to web interface.

Maybe pickup a NAD 916?

aubuti
2009-01-08, 15:05
Budget for the amp/pre-amp solution is around $1000 could go higher if there is no obvious solutions at that price point.

I'm thinking Rotel (although more expensive) RSX-1550 which supports multiple zones would do it. I would like to use a single Duet/SB3. The maximum distance to the speakers will be 75ft so I guess I'll need some good speaker wire.

I'm not that familiar with these do it all receivers but I'm guessing that each zones volume can be controller separately without the need of a special volume control? Also, I'm hoping they can all be in "party" mode playing the same thing.

It also isn't clear if their zone outs are amplified? I'm guessing not.

I would prefer a solution at a better price point..
No doubt I'm missing something, but why get a 7.1 home theater amp if your intention is to play music through 3 pairs of speakers (one left and and one right in each of 3 different rooms)? They just don't seem to fit. I would think that something more like these (http://www.crutchfield.com/g_324450/Multi-room-Amplifiers.html?tp=7330) would be what you are looking for. That Marantz ZS5300 particularly looks like it has the features you want, although I don't know anything about how good it is. It has 3 different source inputs (one for each zone), but there may be an easy way to use 1 source going to all 3 pairs of speakers. That is, something more elegant than 2 Y-adapters coming out of your SB ;o) And it does have separate volume controls.

badbob
2009-01-08, 15:13
Good find on that Marantz however it has IR control, so you'll need IR to RF system in each room, then RF to IR next the Marantz.

Plus you would need three of those Marantz remotes. And not forgetting three SB remotes as well set up into IR to RF system (another blaster wire) And you've still drawback you won't be able to see what you're doing with SB menus.

All that will probably work out similar price to another pair of SB3. I still think a more basic 6 channel amp with 3 SB's is the better option.

aubuti
2009-01-08, 15:21
All that will probably work out similar price to another pair of SB3. I still think a more basic 6 channel amp with 3 SB's is the better option.
Or even 3 SBs and 3 2-channel amps. SBs just love to be sprinkled around the house/flat (see sig). Saves stringing a lot of speaker cable, too!

badbob
2009-01-08, 15:30
That's true save on long RCA cables and speaker cables which'll add the cost and possibly pickup noise. Could then look for cheap second hand remote controlled stereo integrated amplifiers, but he'll still need some kind of remote control system up, so he can control each amplifier & SB from other rooms, so each room will need IR to RF transmitters plus RF to IR receivers, and each room with blaster wires (to the SB and amp) RJ45 comm has moved forward so I wouldn't be suprised you can do that over the ethernet cable (IR receiever to ethernet, ethernet to IR blaster)

ptrainer
2009-01-08, 15:36
Good find on that Marantz however it has IR control, so you'll need IR to RF system in each room, then RF to IR next the Marantz.

Plus you would need three of those Marantz remotes. And not forgetting three SB remotes as well set up into IR to RF system (another blaster wire) And you've still drawback you won't be able to see what you're doing with SB menus.

All that will probably work out similar price to another pair of SB3. I still think a more basic 6 channel amp with 3 SB's is the better option.

The original poster may need to clarify but I don't think he ever said anything about needing to control the zones remotely. I think he just wants his new SB3 feeding a three-zone stereo amplifier that can be controlled from a central location. He did say he doesn't want multiple sources, just that the same audio stream in 3 different zones could be turned on and off and volumes changed at will. The Marantz at $799 falls within his 1K budget and sounds like the perfect solution to me. It's the model that I found when googling for a suitable device too.

radish
2009-01-08, 15:38
The problem is he wants each room to be controlled, probably with remote unless he goes into the cupboard and adjusts the pot on the amp- that T-amp does not have remote control. Also if the SB has variable out, that'll effect all rooms rather than individual levels per room. So either he needs three integrated amps, or three SB's, or a amp with RF or RS232 wireless remote volume control.

That's why I said one SBR per room, it doesn't make sense any other way to me. The SBR volume control is just fine, I don't see why you'd want to mess around trying to control the amp itself unless you wanted to use it with other sources.

My point was he said he wanted to use a single SB but would pay $1000 for a 3-zone amp, I'm doing multiple SB's at $210 per zone, so $630 for 3 zones. Better & cheaper.

badbob
2009-01-08, 15:42
That's ok, three SB3's.

In each room you have a 2 channel poweramp. But you'll still need three IR remote control distribution systems. How would you control the volume on the other two rooms, if you're not in it?

badbob
2009-01-08, 15:47
I think he just wants his new SB3 feeding a three-zone stereo amplifier that can be controlled from a central location.

Pretty crap multi-room system, I'd say. Can't control the music unless you walk to the room with the single Squeezebox.

The OP did indeed say he wanted each zone to be controlled in volume


3 pairs of speakers that can be individually controlled (i.e. Volume, On/Off)

aubuti
2009-01-08, 15:51
That's ok, three SB3's.

In each room you have a 2 channel poweramp. But you'll still need three IR remote control distribution systems. How would you control the volume on the other two rooms, if you're not in it?
With one or more SB Controllers, which are wifi.

ptrainer
2009-01-08, 15:53
Pretty crap multi-room system, I'd say. Can't control the music unless you walk to the room with the single Squeezebox.

The OP did indeed say he wanted each zone to be controlled in volume

The Marantz does have individual volumes for each zone.

badbob
2009-01-08, 15:58
With one or more SB Controllers, which are wifi.

He's got a SB3- remote is IR. So he'll need IR to RF, and RF to IR (so control that Marantz out of line of sight, and control other SB's out of line of sight.



The Marantz does have individual volumes for each zone.

But you need to get IR signals to it. If it's in a cupboard how will it receive signals from the three SB3's IR remotes? You need RF receiver, and IR blaster wires next to the Marantz. And for each room, IR receivers to RF transmitters, and RF receivers to IR blaster wires. Unless he uses the SB3 variable output, in which case there is no need for fancy remote controlled poweramp, but he'll still need IR to RF plus RF to IR system for each SB (unless he buys three Duets) That's if he goes for the Marantz (extra cost of RCA cables and speaker calbes)

Another problem is assigning IR control to each room, how would you change volume to room 3 but not room 2, if using the SB's variable output? In which case that Marantz is the better option. But you've got the problem of how to control each SB individually and remotely, you'll need web interface system with the drop down room selector box.

I guess if you're not concerned about controlling music seperatly on each SB, then I guess better to go for stereo amp (save cost on RCA and speaker cables) - but then problem of controlling each amp seperatly, will require three different makes of amps, and require a universal remote with three sets of volume buttons) That makes a mess of things, so I guess that makes that Marantz the best option, and SB3 per room, with only setting up volume on the out of sight system. With three IR to RF systems for Marantz volume control only- will need to buy two of those Marantz remotes for the other room though unless he wants to carry the supplied Marantz remote from room to room.

aubuti
2009-01-08, 16:43
He's got a SB3- remote is IR. So he'll need IR to RF, and RF to IR (so control that Marantz out of line of sight, and control other SB's out of line of sight.
The SB3 is also wifi, and the SB Duet Controller (SBC) works perfectly well on SB3s. Just use the SBC to choose the player and control the volume, playlist, etc. via wifi.

badbob
2009-01-08, 16:53
That's quite good then, so basically he just needs to buy one more SB3 wireless version, and one SB Duet- he won't need that Marantz amp, just normal 6 channel poweramp, or a 2 channel poweramp in each room. But that means he will have to carry the Duet remote with him rather than just leaving the remote in each room on the table.

Does any of the SB make a nasty power on or power off pop from analogue outputs, when feeding that to a poweramp? Never liked the idea of sources plugged directly into poweramps without a physical volume control/muting system.

radish
2009-01-08, 18:32
That's quite good then, so basically he just needs to buy one more SB3 wireless version, and one SB Duet

Or, as I have been saying, a number of SBRs (half the price of the SB3 and you don't need a screen if it's in a closet).


But that means he will have to carry the Duet remote with him rather than just leaving the remote in each room on the table.

Or buy more SBC's (they're available individually), or use an iPhone, or a tablet, or a PC, or whatever. There are lots of ways to control SB players which don't require running IR cables.



Does any of the SB make a nasty power on or power off pop from analogue outputs, when feeding that to a poweramp? Never liked the idea of sources plugged directly into poweramps without a physical volume control/muting system.
Who said anything about plugging directly into a poweramp? I use a T-amp (as I mentioned) which is a pre/power. Have the the amp's volume set to the loudest I'll need (about half power). Then I just use the SB to attenuate to a comfortable level. And no pops.

linvale
2009-01-08, 21:19
I have the Marantz ZS5300 having looked at various options for a multi room setup (including multiple sb/amp combos). I have several SBs for individual zones (bedroom SBB) but use this multizone amp for three zones with a SB hooked into input 1. It works great, hidden out of site with an ir output from the geekport on the sb to the ir input on the marantz and using ir blaster with learning commands I can control the amp directly via the ir through the SB or via an sb controller from anywhere - perfect. I am playing with a plugin to allw zone selection via the controller or other squeezeboxes - will let you know of any success, but it seems possible to build on the irblaster plugin for this.

iainhar@aol.com
2009-01-09, 00:20
Has anyone given thought to a very simple solution. Ignoring going down the road of a specialist mutiroom supplier, (which in truth would be the sensible though expensive solution), how about wall mounting an SB Boom box in each room. Complete with amplifcation, speakers and the ability to sync (a la party mode you require). 3 x off at circa £200.........done. You could even connect an sb3 in a favorite listening room to an existing hi fi for serious listening, and the boom boxes in the other rooms again with the facility to sync. Dont forget the fantastic I Peng on I-pod / touch which would let you control your system.

Iain.


-----Original Message-----
From: spc337 <spc337.3lpo7b1231446001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Sent: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:17
Subject: Re: [slim] Multi-room listening




udget for the amp/pre-amp solution is around $1000 could go higher if
here is no obvious solutions at that price point.
I'm thinking Rotel (although more expensive) RSX-1550 which supports
ultiple zones would do it. I would like to use a single Duet/SB3.
he maximum distance to the speakers will be 75ft so I guess I'll need
ome good speaker wire.
I'm not that familiar with these do it all receivers but I'm guessing
hat each zones volume can be controller separately without the need of
special volume control? Also, I'm hoping they can all be in "party"
ode playing the same thing.
It also isn't clear if their zone outs are amplified? I'm guessing
ot.
I would prefe
r a solution at a better price point..

-
pc337
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
pc337's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14315
iew this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57836

linvale
2009-01-09, 04:53
The Marantz can be picked up discounted at around $600 US and vs the $600 for two more SBs alone without amplifiers - and no syncing problems...

garym999
2009-01-09, 10:18
How about 3 of these (http://www.sumoh.com) with 3 SBR's and one SBC. I have this working. You can sync the SBRs if you just need the same op in each room or use an SBC, Nokia, Pronto, iPhone etc. to control each zone separatley, as others have said.

toby10
2009-01-09, 10:52
The Marantz can be picked up discounted at around $600 US and vs the $600 for two more SBs alone without amplifiers - and no syncing problems...

Same with the Yamaha AVR's with multi-zones. I know the 1800's are being blown out for around $600.
Models RX-V:
1700
2700
1800
3800

The catch with the Yamaha's Zone usage is that Zones only work with an analog input source. i.e. Optical out of an SB3 into a Yamaha will not output audio to Zones 2 & 3.
I dunno if Marantz has this same limitation or not. :(
EDIT: Yes, the Marantz is also limited to analog inputs. In case it matters. :)

spc337
2009-01-09, 11:17
The Marantz ZS5300 looks perfect, thanks for the info. Given the room is a loft, I'm really just distributing music and don't require different music in each zone simultaneously. I may go with the Duet Solution so I have a WiFi controller.

I noticed that someone said they were controlling the Marantz from the SB remote. I didn't know that was possible. Any more info on that solution would be great.

Thanks

Sean

badbob
2009-01-09, 11:31
How would you duplicate the RCA outputs from SB into all six channels? I don't think using a stereo RCA pair to three Y splitters is a good idea.

toby10
2009-01-09, 11:46
How would you duplicate the RCA outputs from SB into all six channels? I don't think using a stereo RCA pair to three Y splitters is a good idea.

One SB3 input = 3 Zone output

aubuti
2009-01-09, 11:48
Same with the Yamaha AVR's with multi-zones. I know the 1800's are being blown out for around $600.
Models RX-V:
1700
2700
1800
3800

The catch with the Yamaha's Zone usage is that Zones only work with an analog input source. i.e. Optical out of an SB3 into a Yamaha will not output audio to Zones 2 & 3.
I dunno if Marantz has this same limitation or not. :(
EDIT: Yes, the Marantz is also limited to analog inputs. In case it matters. :)
This means that the "catch" with the Yamaha could actually be a feature. The outputs on SB3s and SBRs are all always active. So one could feed an SB digital out to the amp's digital input, and the analog output to one of the other zone's analog inputs. That would still mean 1 y-splitter to get both zones 2 & 3, but that's a lot better than 2 splitters.

Unless you were saying that using the digital input on the Yamaha prevents *any* use of the analog inputs for zones 2 & 3.

badbob
2009-01-09, 11:51
One SB3 input = 3 Zone output

Obviously.
Lexicon MC-12 has 3 zone outputs.

toby10
2009-01-09, 12:09
This means that the "catch" with the Yamaha could actually be a feature. The outputs on SB3s and SBRs are all always active. So one could feed an SB digital out to the amp's digital input, and the analog output to one of the other zone's analog inputs. That would still mean 1 y-splitter to get both zones 2 & 3, but that's a lot better than 2 splitters.

Unless you were saying that using the digital input on the Yamaha prevents *any* use of the analog inputs for zones 2 & 3.

Digital inputs (HDMI, digital coax, optical) on the Yamaha cannot be used to output audio to Zones 2 & 3. This limitation has no effect on analog inputs.

example:
SB3 > optical > Yamaha = playable only in "main" zone
SB3 > analog L-R > Yamaha = playable in ALL zones, or any combination of zones

The nice thing about such zones (albeit with the limitations) is that these zones are also independent of the main zone from a single AVR.

example of simultaneous zone play:
Main Zone = SB3
Zone 2 = FM tuner
Zone 3 = CD player

toby10
2009-01-09, 12:11
Obviously.
Lexicon MC-12 has 3 zone outputs.

So why do you think you need splitters? :)

badbob
2009-01-09, 12:21
Splitters are bad mmkay. But then that Lexicon MC-12 is a bit expensive, but you want the same thing, with three line out/record outputs. I know the Audiolab 8000S integrated amp has three tape loops but not sure if it can output three signals at the same time.

Ideally though want some kind of QED like distribition box. Unless the Marantz has some kind of feature to duplicate channels, like Arcam's Monolink.

toby10
2009-01-09, 12:27
Splitters are bad mmkay......

Obviously. :)

The whole point of these zone devices is to avoid such Y splitters.

linvale
2009-01-09, 18:08
My amp is hidden away in a central location but connected to the main squeezebox 3 through via a cable from the output port to the ir flasher input on the marantz. The marantz commands are stored via the ir learning part of the ir blaster plugin. The raw on off and volume commands from the controller work to control the global zone in my set up - but am working on individual zone controls at present. IR pass through allows you to access all the amp features by just pointing the original remote at the attached squeezebox....sounds great by the way.

Mark Lanctot
2009-01-14, 11:13
I noticed that someone said they were controlling the Marantz from the SB remote. I didn't know that was possible. Any more info on that solution would be great.

Use the IR Blaster plugin:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/IRBlaster

along with an IR blaster:

https://secure.slimdevices.com/products.php?product=IR%252dBlaster

which retransmits IR commands.

Or if the receiver has an IR in/remote in jack, you can wire directly to that jack without an IR blaster:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/IRBlasterDirectLink