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Diana
2009-01-07, 08:01
Anyone know anything about this?
http://oss.linn.co.uk/trac/wiki/SkweezyDs

andyg
2009-01-07, 08:19
It's an interesting hack, to be sure.

DaveWr
2009-01-07, 10:01
It's an interesting hack, to be sure.

Its a hack for now - but it looks like it could get competitive.

Linn gear is a little expensive - cheapest option £1000 !!

Dave

bonze
2009-01-07, 10:26
But it will only work if you also have a SqueezeBox?
(or am I reading that wrong)

In which case..... why??

pippin
2009-01-07, 10:38
But it will only work if you also have a SqueezeBox?
(or am I reading that wrong)

In which case..... why??

Because of the cooler controllers?

bonze
2009-01-07, 11:04
Because of the cooler controllers?
So to get the best out of a Linn product you would have to buy and install a rival product ;)

Any potential Linn customers coming across that site must be asking themselves why bother with Linn in the first place ??

Phil Leigh
2009-01-07, 11:09
Linn have always been mediocre-to-awful at UI design...(but good-to-excellent at audio)

If I had a Linn DS, I'd be very happy "driving it" with a Controller or even the web gui+SB! - I'd be VERY frustrated driving it with the Linn software/remote.

DaveWr
2009-01-07, 11:19
Further to the comments:

- the Linn guy is working on a Perl version requiring no squeezebox, according to the forums.

- yes everybody is right - the driver is obviously UI / features, again looking through forum comments.

Dave

bonze
2009-01-07, 11:25
Is the SC7.3 software completely open source?

So theoretically no-one need buy a SqueezeBox at all - just download the software for free ??

pfarrell
2009-01-07, 11:45
bonze wrote:
> Is the SC7.3 software completely open source?
>
> So theoretically no-one need buy a SqueezeBox at all - just download
> the software for free ??

Yes, download it, try it for free.
There are some binary parts, specifically firmware for the
microcontroller in the hardware, that is not open source. But you don't
need it, or even want that until you have hardware.

You can play with SqueezePlay or use something like Winamp and stream to it.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

cliveb
2009-01-07, 11:53
But it will only work if you also have a SqueezeBox?
(or am I reading that wrong)

In which case..... why??
As I read it, the Squeezebox is required so that SqueezeCenter has a player to stream to. The Linn software intercepts what gets sent to the Squeezebox and sends it to the DS. But it strikes me that this ought to work with SoftSqueeze, so no need to buy the actual hardware?

There's a wider issue that's affected by this. The biggest problem for streaming audio at present seems to be that there are a multitude of competing systems each with their own server technology. Before streaming audio can become mainstream, the various device manufacturers will have to converge on one (or a small number) of server technologies. Or failing that, at least they need to converge on a protocol so that different manufacturers can build servers and clients that are interoperable. The audio world doesn't expect to be locked in to one vendor's devices - we should be able to have a Duet in the bedroom and a Klimax DS in the lounge, running off the same server, if we want.

The fact that a respected high end audio company like Linn have started integrating with SqueezeCenter is good news - it signals the start of some sort of convergence (and to the "correct" server technology, as far as we here are concerned :-)

radish
2009-01-07, 11:57
The fact that it's open source doesn't affect whether someone can use it without owning an SB, it's the fact that it's free that allows that :) Having said that, SC is released under the GPL. Portions of the download archives/installers are however not GPL (such as the bundled firmware binaries) so you can't distribute them as-is.

netim3
2009-01-08, 02:52
The fact that a respected high end audio company like Linn have started integrating with SqueezeCenter is good news - it signals the start of some sort of convergence (and to the "correct" server technology, as far as we here are concerned :-)

The fact that the server software alternatives are free actually limits progress here. Given the tremendous power, flexibility and UI options of SqueezeCenter, Slimdevices could (IMHO) easily dominate the server market simply by supporting UPnP/DLNA players (including Linn, Sonus, Netgear etc.) Of course, that wouldn't necessarily drive increased SBR sales. Any ideas for a commercial model that would reward Slim for doing this?

pippin
2009-01-08, 02:57
The fact that the server software alternatives are free actually limits progress here. Given the tremendous power, flexibility and UI options of SqueezeCenter, Slimdevices could (IMHO) easily dominate the server market simply by supporting UPnP/DLNA players (including Linn, Sonus, Netgear etc.) Of course, that wouldn't necessarily drive increased SBR sales. Any ideas for a commercial model that would reward Slim for doing this?

Start with the technical idea of HOW to do this.
The SC paradigm is that the server controls the player, the UPnP paradigm is that the player or a control point controls the player which pulls it's data from the server.

The SC paradigm is more powerful but hard to adopt with "any UPnP" player, SC simply would not add value to these.

radish
2009-01-08, 09:08
Any ideas for a commercial model that would reward Slim for doing this?
There doesn't need to be one. SC is GPL, anyone who thought it was (a) worth doing and (b) possible, could add uPnP server functionality to SC tomorrow. I've thought about doing it, but it's difficult and I just don't need it enough :) If you or others see a need then you can either figure out how to do it yourselves or pay someone to develop it. If no-ones willing to do that, then maybe it's not really needed.

andyg
2009-01-08, 09:18
I'm thinking about writing a plugin that will add UPnP MediaRenderer and MediaServer support. When I get some free time, we'll see. :)

rockfather
2009-01-12, 13:06
Hi there - I wondered when this would be picked up here.

I am working on the above plugin, to enable SC controllers to be used to control Linn DS products. Whilst I am currently a Linn employee, can I emphasize that I am doing this in my own time using my own equipment. The only assistance from Linn is access to some of their hardware, and the use of their OSS site for hosting.

The design involves making a Linn DS mimic what a Squeezebox is doing. Hence SC is the controlling interface at all times (except for timing resynch at track changeover). This means that an SB or Duet controller IS required for this plugin to work. Whilst theoretically Softsqueeze or similar could be used, I have never had the required stability from this to be useful.

I started developing this because I use both SBs and Linn DS at home, and wanted to converge on one simple solution that everyone in the family could use. The original SB interface (large display and IR handset) is one of the simplest to use (if not the most sexy), and it was on that basis that development started. When the Duet controller came along, it offered another nice handheld alternative for operating the players. As a side-affect, this enabled the use of SC as the media server, rather than a UPnP offering, all of which still appear to be somewhat problematic.

thomsens
2009-01-12, 14:44
...The design involves making a Linn DS mimic what a Squeezebox is doing...

Are you touching the Linn DS firmware in any way, or is all the magic in your plug-in combined with the extra SB and essentially the SC software thinks it's talking to the SB and the Linn DS thinks it's talking to a UPnP server?

rockfather
2009-01-12, 16:04
Are you touching the Linn DS firmware in any way, or is all the magic in your plug-in combined with the extra SB and essentially the SC software thinks it's talking to the SB and the Linn DS thinks it's talking to a UPnP server?

Linn DS firmware is unmodified

SC software IS talking to the SB
Plugin is 'eavesdropping' on SC->SB comms and then driving Linn DS to do the same as the SB. Control of DS is performed using DSs telnet-like interface, rather than UPnP, and it in turn requests audio data from the plugin (using standard HTTP GET request) which is served by the plugin.

In UPnP model the renderer (Linn DS in this case) only ever requests audio data from the server, all the queries on the server (to select audio) are done by the controller (which has been replaced with SC/SB combo in this plugin)

kai
2009-01-13, 13:09
Rockfather's development just made me buy a DS and another Squeezebox (as display). Thus both, Linn and Logitech, do profit from his development.

To me the idea that a real audiophile would use a transporter as primary source in his main system is as ridiculous as the idea of putting a Sneaky DS in my bathroom or kitchen (though both are well designed products). Logitech and Linn might better cooperate for their own benefit.

sebp
2009-01-13, 13:35
To me the idea that a real audiophile would use a transporter as primary source in his main system ...
Really?
Me thought that real audiphiles used the TP as a drive coupled to a a high-end DAC. ;)


Logitech and Linn might better cooperate for their own benefit.
SqueezeCenter is already open-source and the protocols are documented, so if Linn wanted to make their products compatible with SC, they could have made so from the start. (And so did Roku at one time.)
Apart from selling a handful of Duets/Controllers to DS owners, and getting strange calls on their helpdesk about users who can't get their DS to play, I don't really see what Logi/Slim would gain there...

Anyway, what rockfather did, shows (once again) that SqueezeCenter is flexible software.
And that's why it's so great!

Nikhil
2009-01-13, 19:27
I'm thinking about writing a plugin that will add UPnP MediaRenderer and MediaServer support. When I get some free time, we'll see. :)

This is good news. Two thumbs up for Andy :)

browellm
2009-01-15, 06:41
To me the idea that a real audiophile would use a transporter as primary source in his main system is as ridiculous as the idea of putting a Sneaky DS in my bathroom or kitchen (though both are well designed products)

Would you care to expand on this potential bombshell?

Briain
2009-01-15, 11:49
Hi. My thoughts (for what they're worth; I'm getting old and they're not as good as what they used to be :)


Rockfather's development just made me buy a DS and another Squeezebox (as display). Thus both, Linn and Logitech, do profit from his development.


I used to have Sonos and Linn systems in my house, but have now changed to Logitech Duets and Linn systems due to this development (and the facts that SC7/Jive is wonderful whereas Sonos is totally unconfigurable; also that with Jive and Linn's KinskyPDA, you can scroll through the albums by looking at the artwork, whereas with Sonos, you only see the artwork when you 'park'). I thus totally agree with the above post in that it benefits both stakeholders: many Linn users will now be tempted to buy Duets and then once they have, they'll be tempted to 'pepper' their houses with Duet receivers; it's a great and affordable solution!

Many of my friends now intend going down this very route; they really like the idea of a Linn system in the lounge and a mix of Duets/Booms in bedrooms, kitchens, workshops etc. Three have actually bought Duets with the intension to possibly add Linn stuff later, one has bought a Duet for his Linn system and intends using it in his bedroom and adding a top Linn DS for his lounge later; so that's four sales to Logitech (many more for other rooms to follow), nill sales to Sonos and some sales to Linn going forward! I'd call that a seriously good result for all!



I'm thinking about writing a plugin that will add UPnP MediaRenderer and MediaServer support. When I get some free time, we'll see. :)

At the minute, I'm using the controller as a 'sacrificial' receiver (to save tying up one of my Duet receivers) but it would be fantastic not to have to do this. It would also save having to stream an unnecessary feed to the Jive and thus cut down on network traffic / NAS workload etc. It would thus be fantastic to have a SC7 UPnP plugin but I can see one area that might require some consideration: unless Jive also performed the same trick that Linn have used (to upload the selected tracks as a playlist to the UPnP renderer) it might suffer from the standard UPnP/controller shortfall which is that gaps are heard between tracks. This wouldn’t be noticeable on many albums, but on albums where tracks flow seamlessly into each other, it’s a disaster (this can be heard if you try using Cidero to control a Linn DS).

It would be great to get down to one media streamer though as it's a real pain having to ensure FLAC tagging suits several systems (I'm referring albumartist and artist Vorbis comments).

Overall summary: Both Logitech and Linn systems totally rock and no cool building should be without them both!

Bri

NB FYI Klimax DS in lounge, Sneaky DS in TV room, Duet RX + Numerik D/A in bedroom Duet in kitchen, Sonos in office (just ordered another Duet to replace it), and soon, a Duet to feed the bathroom too. I want them all be integrated (and ideally to all be fed from SlimServer). One thing that I'll miss though is the analogue input on the Sonos: it'd be nice to have a new product; a 'reverse' Duet (an A/D) to feed audio from legacy devices onto the network.

adamslim
2009-01-15, 17:34
Yeah I started a thread on this ages ago, when the SB/DS stuff was coming in the Linn forum, but no-one cared.

IMO Logitech should have started licensing their system ages ago, as lots of established audiophile players like Linn, Naim, Meridian, McIntosh and the like are getting into streaming players. They can do the sound, to the satisfaction of their customers, but have little experience with the streaming systems.

The cost of a slave Receiver is negligible (I use a slave SB3 as a second display now I have upped my Booms!). Sure Logitech are getting some sales from this, but what they want is a fully integrated system that just works, with people buying one Linn/Mc/Meridian or whatever, and half a dozen Booms, Receivers and SB Classics.

Nikhil
2009-01-15, 23:33
I'm thinking about writing a plugin that will add UPnP MediaRenderer and MediaServer support. When I get some free time, we'll see. :)

If you would like this capability, please consider voting for this feature request:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5091

Briain
2009-01-16, 04:28
IMO Logitech should have started licensing their system ages ago, as lots of established audiophile players like Linn, Naim, Meridian, McIntosh and the like are getting into streaming players. They can do the sound, to the satisfaction of their customers, but have little experience with the streaming systems.


Hi

I'd be delighted to pay for SC7 so have not issue with that; I happily paid for Twonky media server and it has bugs with FLAC! I've used both systems for a while (Linn DS for 18 months and I must be close to the first Duet user in the UK) and whilst I note your above comments about alternative streaming systems, believe it or not, though SC7 beats Twonky in many areas, there are also a couple of really key areas where Twonky (TMS4) beats SC7, so it's certainly not quite as definite as you might expect!

It would be great to have one mediaserver though and thus great if SC was UPnP.

(NB For those that don't know it, Twonky media server (TMS4) is a third party UPnP media server)

Bri

olivern
2009-01-25, 20:05
It would thus be fantastic to have a SC7 UPnP plugin but I can see one area that might require some consideration: unless Jive also performed the same trick that Linn have used (to upload the selected tracks as a playlist to the UPnP renderer) it might suffer from the standard UPnP/controller shortfall which is that gaps are heard between tracks. This wouldn’t be noticeable on many albums, but on albums where tracks flow seamlessly into each other, it’s a disaster (this can be heard if you try using Cidero to control a Linn DS).


Bri


UPnP has its flaws, but it does support a function to enable gapless track transition (the operation is SetNextAVTransportURI(), or something like that - it's been a while!). The Cidero controller and the Roku soundbridge support it, and one can listen to the Beatles Abbey Road (gapless album) using the Cidero/Roku combination without going stark raving mad.

The basic idea is that when one track starts playing and a controller is notified of that, then the controller can cue up the next track in advance. If Linn implemented this capability as Roku did on their MediaRender, then playbacks with Cidero should be gapless.

Not sure if this has any impact on future UPnP (DNLA) designs for the Slim community or not...

Cheers,

-Oliver

simongurney
2009-02-16, 08:38
I have a Linn Majik DS with Ruark speakers and a Rega power amp. I sounds phenomenal. The only problem is the Linn software. This runs on a laptop (absolute rubbish, not even album art) or a PDA/smartphone (very poor).

I have just got my Squeezebox Duet set up and it is truly wonderful except for the sound quality. On a whim and as it was cheap I have just ordered Beresford TC-7510 DAC. will this get me up to Linn quality ? How do the volume issues pan out in real life?

I'm nervous about having to transcode my studio quality FLAC files in sqeezecentre or will this not effect quality. Do I even need to transcode FLACs or can a transporter handle them.

I take it that the handset from my Squeezebox Duet will control a transpoter in the same way as a Squeezebox receiver.




I just love answering my own questions. I have just found

SkweezyDs plugin for SqueezeCenter (Beta) http://oss.linn.co.uk/trac/wiki/SkweezyDs

If I can use the Squeezebox controller to drive my Linn then I will be very happy.


Now I have found where I needed to have looked in first place.

Thanks a great deal Rockafather I'm one of those that appreciate the solution and don't understand the politics.

ddewey
2009-02-16, 09:35
Quoting simongurney (simongurney.3npj8o1234798802 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com):


> I'm nervous about having to transcode my studio quality FLAC files in
> sqeezecentre or will this not effect quality. Do I even need to
> transcode FLACs or can a transporter handle them.

no need to transcode FLAC. Support is native.

>
> I take it that the handset from my Squeezebox Duet will control a
> transpoter in the same way as a Squeezebox receiver.

Correct.

simongurney
2009-02-17, 09:44
Rockafather, I have got your software working on my Linn DS/Duet system but I have one query about the volume control system that is in place. When the volume option is ticked does the plugin interpret the commands and pass them onto the Linn so it can adjust it's own volume or is it simple using the volume from the audio stream itself?

Thanks,
Simon

Briain
2009-02-17, 10:40
Hi

Briain here. I'm not sure if Rockfather's monitoring this or not but the answer is yes, it will pass these on to the Linn. I have tried the original Linux version (on my NAS) with both a Sneaky (with internal preamp) and a Klimax DS / Klimax Kontrol combination. I haven't tried the SC plugin version as the latest automated Logitech firmware update has broken my Duet and the previous versions of Jive don't seem to be on on the Slimdevices site any more; most irritating!

Bri

rockfather
2009-02-17, 13:52
Hi there,

I do monitor this sometimes, but would request that any direct support type questions for this plugin be directed to the Linn forums, as that is the correct place for support of anything Linn, and also helps keep all the relevant information in one place. Thanks