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finnbrodersen
2008-11-23, 01:23
Hi

I hold an M.Sc. in Computer Science and consider my self
more or less an expert,

but

could someone please explain the compilation settings in
laymans terms, the 3 bits gives 8 combinations

What is the difference in these 8 combinations ?

PSSO
2008-11-23, 01:52
Check this out http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/BeginnersGuideToTagging

finnbrodersen
2008-11-23, 07:53
Thanks for the info,

however, my problem is not so much the tagging itself, but
more how to interpret the function of the 3 bits

radish
2008-11-23, 15:30
The first one controls whether you get a Various Artists section for compilations, or whether compilations show up under the individual artists' pages.

The second one controls whether Album Artist is taken into account or not.

The third one controls whether the TPE2 tag is interpreted as "Band" or "Album Artist". Some software assumes one, some the other, SC lets you choose.

finnbrodersen
2008-11-23, 23:22
The first one controls whether you get a Various Artists section for compilations, or whether compilations show up under the individual artists' pages.

The second one controls whether Album Artist is taken into account or not.

The third one controls whether the TPE2 tag is interpreted as "Band" or "Album Artist". Some software assumes one, some the other, SC lets you choose.


Thanks a lot

Why the 3rd setting ? What is the difference between "Band" and
"Album Artist", for me it is only a name, some programs use one
others the other, as long it is TPE2 it does not matter, or does it ?


Sorry for all the stupid questions, but I find these settings
really hard to understand.

amcluesent
2008-11-24, 02:28
Search the forums for TPE2, sit back and read the flames. :)

radish
2008-11-24, 07:13
Thanks a lot

Why the 3rd setting ? What is the difference between "Band" and
"Album Artist", for me it is only a name, some programs use one
others the other, as long it is TPE2 it does not matter, or does it ?


Band is a contributor, which could be considered along with other contributors. For example, you might put The Who in Band and Roger Daltrey in Artist. Then the track would be listed under both. Album Artist is a contributor which overrides Artist, so if you have an album by The Who with some guest artists, you want it to only appear under The Who so you set Album Artist. SC will now ignore the individual Artist values.

With flexible tagging schemes (such as the one in FLAC) you can have different tags for each these. In the world of mp3/id3 they both share the same tag (TPE2) so you need to know which meaning you're giving to that tag.



Sorry for all the stupid questions, but I find these settings
really hard to understand.

It's a complex topic, and I don't think we've yet reached the ideal mix of functionality and ease of understanding. The approach most other software takes (i.e. iTunes) is to give you no choice...I prefer choice even if it makes it a little more complex. In most cases the defaults work fine, I only ever change the first setting for VA.

Philip Meyer
2008-11-24, 08:01
The second one controls whether Album Artist is taken into account or not.

Not correct. This has nothing to do with album artists at all.

If "List albums by Band" is chosen, then the display of items in the UI that is normally "album by <artist> ..." would instead display "album by <band>". And by that, it really means the band contributor role, not an album artist. I think it's main purpose is for users with classical music collections, because the TPE2 tag is used for holding BAND/ORCHESTRA information.

i.e. if you have configured TPE2 to represent Album Artist, you won't have any band contributors in your SC music collection any more.

Philip Meyer
2008-11-24, 08:07
Radish - good post. That sums things up perfectly I think.

These settings are confusing initially, and the label descriptions don't help. Some options are irrelevant depending on other chosen settings. Some settings only apply to certain file tag formats.

Changing some settings don't have an immediate effect and require a full rescan, whilst others do. i.e. some relate to the scanner, others relate to the display within the application.

radish
2008-11-24, 08:29
Not correct. This has nothing to do with album artists at all.

If "List albums by Band" is chosen, then the display of items in the UI that is normally "album by <artist> ..." would instead display "album by <band>". And by that, it really means the band contributor role, not an album artist. I think it's main purpose is for users with classical music collections, because the TPE2 tag is used for holding BAND/ORCHESTRA information.

i.e. if you have configured TPE2 to represent Album Artist, you won't have any band contributors in your SC music collection any more.

Well there you go, learn something new every day :) Did I mention this was complicated...

MrSinatra
2008-11-26, 05:42
Thanks a lot

Why the 3rd setting ? What is the difference between "Band" and
"Album Artist", for me it is only a name, some programs use one
others the other, as long it is TPE2 it does not matter, or does it ?


Sorry for all the stupid questions, but I find these settings
really hard to understand.

are your questions answered yet?

[it should be noted that the wording of the options is horrendous, and that the placement under the category "compilations" is somewhat misleading].

the first option will group comps together in one place, or let the comp get placed multiple times under every artist on it. (however, somewhat inconsistently, even if you group them, if you browse to any one artist, the comp will show up there too, if the artist is also on a comp, and only that artists song will be available, not all the comps songs).

the second option is only for denoting who an album is by. it allows you to choose using the files TPE1 (Artist) or TPE2 (Band) for denotation.

(of course all these tags are imported into the SC DB, and used there, based on your settings at scan time)

the third option is for compatibility. most mainstream apps out there call TPE2 "Album Artist" which is technically incorrect and out of spec, but it IS the de facto standard.

since this is the case, SC allow you to import the TPE2 tag as "ALBUMARTIST" in the SC DB. this means the SC DB will not get anthing populated in the BAND field, but WILL get values in the SC DB ALBUMARTIST field. (this creates expected and consistent behavior across apps)

its important to note that the second option, "List by Band" (Denote) will use the SC DB'd ALBUMARTIST field to do so when you use the "Treat TPE2 as Album Artist" function.

finnbrodersen
2008-11-26, 07:11
Hi

Thanks for all the informative answers.

I *think* I (more or less) understand the meaning of the 3 bits, although they
are exceptional hard to understand.

I re-tagged my mp3 collection the other day (got rid of all ID3v1 tags,
put in "itunescompilation" and "discnumber" tags and some other stuff)

Guess what? After that everything just works!

I think one of my main problems was ID3v1 tags, maybe the SC scanner
should warn about these, especially if there is any conflict
with ID3v2 tags in the same mp3-file.

Once again thanks to all for the input, I appreciate it a lot.

Philip Meyer
2008-11-26, 07:21
Its important to note that "List by Band" (Denote) will use the SC DB'd ALBUMARTIST field to do so when you use the "Treat TPE2 as Album Artist" function.

It is important to separate out the meaning of TPE2 from the discussion about "List by Artist" or "List by Band". The setting for indicating what TPE2 represents is the only place where TPE2 should be mentioned.

If there is an album artist associated with an album, this will ALWAYS be displayed - it takes precidence over artists or bands associated with the album, so the setting of "list by artist" or "list by band" would not change the display.

If there isn't an album artist, the artist displayed will be either the artist(s) or the band(s) associated with the album.


the second option is only for denoting who an album is by. it allows you to choose using the files TPE1 (Artist) or TPE2 (Band) for denotation.

Adding TPE1/TPE2 frame names in this makes your reply incorrect because "List by Band" will not show content if TPE2 = Album Artist.

MrSinatra
2008-11-26, 09:06
It is important to separate out the meaning of TPE2 from the discussion about "List by Artist" or "List by Band". The setting for indicating what TPE2 represents is the only place where TPE2 should be mentioned.

well, first of all, i disagree that thats the "only place it should be mentioned" like its some kind of deformed child in the basement.

i understand the very hard delineation you make between tags and the SC DB. but a lot of users don't feel it necessary to be so hard on that point. the SC DB afterall is nothing more than an interpretation of ones tags or similar info.

moreover, TPE2 is in fact the tag field used for "List by Band." it doesn't matter the setting of the "Treat TPE2" option. either way, if you say "List by Band" SC ultimately ends up using TPE2 info it found when scanning. so its not that important, to me, to stress the delineation between a tag and the SC DB on that, b/c the end result is transparent to the user.

and anyway, what you quoted first that i said is correct.


If there is an album artist associated with an album, this will ALWAYS be displayed - it takes precidence over artists or bands associated with the album, so the setting of "list by artist" or "list by band" would not change the display.

i can't test this myself (at the moment), but i assume you're correct.

its another annoying option in that its not obvious it has no effect if you happen to have album artist data for all your tracks.


If there isn't an album artist, the artist displayed will be either the artist(s) or the band(s) associated with the album.

agreed, and that is best explained, imo, to the layman as TPE1 and TPE2, especially since they will have to understand why everything they are using says "album artist" and SC is calling that "Band." at that point, the TPE2 connection and use can clarify a lot.


Adding TPE1/TPE2 frame names in this makes your reply incorrect because "List by Band" will not show content if TPE2 = Album Artist.

its only incorrect in the sense that TPE2 didn't fill the internal to SC BAND field... but so what? its transparent to the user...

the upshot is that in either case (regardng the treat function), if "List by Band" is picked, users will see the content of their TPE2 tag, and thats the point.

Philip Meyer
2008-11-26, 17:11
TPE2 is only applicable to id3 tags. It doesn't exist in other tag formats. i.e. band contributors can be populated from Band tags in FLAC files.
The scanner reads tag data into the database. If the "List by Artist/Band" option is changed, a rescan is not required. Browsing albums would instantly show different results, because it is looking for artist or band contributors from the database.

>its another annoying option in that its not obvious it has no effect if
>you happen to have album artist data for all your tracks.
It's obvious to me - if you haven't got any band tags in your files, it won't display bands when you choose "list by band".

Actually, perhaps because this option is a radio button, it's not totally obvious. If I have an album that has all tracks by the same two artists and no band, "list by band" will still list that particular album by all artists.

i.e. the "list by band" means the order of significance for display is:
1. Album Artist(s)
2. Band(s)
3. Artist(s)

the "list by all artists" means the order of significance for display is:
1. Album Artist(s)
2. Artist(s)

Perhaps it ought to be a checkbox - "list by band, otherwise by all artists".

SC works better if you don't have album artists defined for albums that don't need it. If you do have unnecessary album artists and thus track artists, then "list by all artists" or "list by band" will have no effect, because album artist will always be displayed.

>best explained, imo, to the layman as TPE1 and TPE2,
>especially since they will have to understand why everything they
>are using says "album artist" and SC is calling that "Band." at that
>point, the TPE2 connection and use can clarify a lot.
Average people have no idea what TPE1 or TPE2 are. Most apps do not mention those terms - that's a low-level thing best hidden from users. There is just one need to give the option that tells the scanner what to do, and I don't even agree that that should really mention TPE2. It should be a checkbox: "Treat the id3 Band/Orchestra tag as Album Artist".

I think all settings that are pertinent to controlling the decisions made only by the scanner at scan time should be in a separate "Scanner Settings".
Options that control what is displayed when browsing music in the local database should not mention specific tag format names - use simple generic terminology - Band, Album Artist, Artist, Compilation, etc.

Separating the two stages, and explaining things as such, is the only way this can be made easier to understand.

MrSinatra
2008-12-07, 23:56
>best explained, imo, to the layman as TPE1 and TPE2,
>especially since they will have to understand why everything they
>are using says "album artist" and SC is calling that "Band." at that
>point, the TPE2 connection and use can clarify a lot.
Average people have no idea what TPE1 or TPE2 are. Most apps do not mention those terms - that's a low-level thing best hidden from users.

best hidden from them? i think thats very ill conceived.

as someone struggling to figure out what SC was doing, it wasn't until TPE2 was explained as the common denominator between what SC called band and other apps called album artist that i was able to put it together.


There is just one need to give the option that tells the scanner what to do, and I don't even agree that that should really mention TPE2. It should be a checkbox: "Treat the id3 Band/Orchestra tag as Album Artist".

disagree. if you're using winamp or similar, as i was, you wouldn't know that the tag you want treated as album artist WAS in reality the band tag, b/c you'd think it ALREADY was the album artist tag, since thats what winamp (and all mainstream apps) say. i think full exposition is best to help clue users in; and in the new SC, i look forward to the wiki link explanations beyond the infobox stuff.


I think all settings that are pertinent to controlling the decisions made only by the scanner at scan time should be in a separate "Scanner Settings".
Options that control what is displayed when browsing music in the local database should not mention specific tag format names - use simple generic terminology - Band, Album Artist, Artist, Compilation, etc.

Separating the two stages, and explaining things as such, is the only way this can be made easier to understand.

we totally agree on this...

i've been saying regarding the new schema and scanner that first the scanner itself should be a modular plugin, secondly that all options should be clearly delineated between "scanner options" and "library options."

however, it was pointed out to me that the best solution is to design the whole deal such that rescans are not necessary! and i couldn't agree more.

take the "treat TPE2 as ____ " option as an example. why can't SC be well designed enough so that when that tag populates a field in the DB, thats all you need? and then the code of SC can manipulate that field to act as either Band or Album Artist? that would be the best way... design it such that the data can be manipulated several different ways without requiring rescan.

(and actually, b/c of the implications of treating TPE2 as album artist upon scanning, this is why i thought a sort by TPE2/Band option might have been better)

Philip Meyer
2008-12-08, 15:57
>>It should be a checkbox: "Treat the id3 Band/Orchestra tag as Album Artist".
>
>disagree. if you're using winamp or similar, as i was, you wouldn't
>know that the tag you want treated as album artist WAS in reality the
>band tag, b/c you'd think it ALREADY was the album artist tag, since
>thats what winamp (and all mainstream apps) say.
>
But "TPE2" doesn't mean anything to those users, as WinAmp, etc, don't mention TPE2 either. So they are none the wiser. Okay, I agree that "Treat id3 Band/Orchestra as Album Artist" may not fully explain it to everyone as well. Perhaps "Use mp3 in compatibility mode", or something like that? The tool-tip can explain the issues with id3 v2.3 TPE2 frame names, etc.

I'm not that bothered, but people still seem confused by it.

>however, it was pointed out to me that the best solution is to design
>the whole deal such that rescans are not necessary! and i couldn't
>agree more.
>
That has been the design goal, essentially. A full rescan should not be necessary (but scans for "new/changed music" will always be required).

There was talk about a two-stage scan. The first stage would be to ONLY read tags - more like a cache, to avoid having to re-read tags from files each time these sort of settings were changed. The second stage would then read the tags from the first-stage scan (from the cache in the database), to quickly build up the data in the form that the application uses.

>take the "treat TPE2 as ____ " option as an example. why can't SC be
>well designed enough so that when that tag populates a field in the DB,
>thats all you need? and then the code of SC can manipulate that field
>to act as either Band or Album Artist? that would be the best way...
Not really, because it means lots of special case logic throughout the code. Everything would need to conditionally decide what to do with the value, and again you are thinking just about id3 tags; there's lots of other formats, even id3v2.3 TXXX ALBUMARTIST support. Imagine if everywhere that needed to read artist/album data, had to then look for several different tags, deciding how to treat each one. The code would be a lot more complex and slower.

Items are write once, read many times for performance.

MrSinatra
2008-12-09, 19:11
>>It should be a checkbox: "Treat the id3 Band/Orchestra tag as Album Artist".
>
>disagree. if you're using winamp or similar, as i was, you wouldn't
>know that the tag you want treated as album artist WAS in reality the
>band tag, b/c you'd think it ALREADY was the album artist tag, since
>thats what winamp (and all mainstream apps) say.
>
But "TPE2" doesn't mean anything to those users, as WinAmp, etc, don't mention TPE2 either. So they are none the wiser. Okay, I agree that "Treat id3 Band/Orchestra as Album Artist" may not fully explain it to everyone as well. Perhaps "Use mp3 in compatibility mode", or something like that? The tool-tip can explain the issues with id3 v2.3 TPE2 frame names, etc.

I'm not that bothered, but people still seem confused by it.

thats true, but when i saw that TPE2 was the common denominator that put it together for me, and imo, thats what SC does now in that setting and infobox. it links the two so someone can see past the surface level contradictions.

it may seem goofy, but believe me when i say it was a revelation that put it all together for me and explained why my apps weren't consistent.

i look forward to the wiki links coming soon, so the infobox can link you to a full explanation on a slim wiki page.



>however, it was pointed out to me that the best solution is to design
>the whole deal such that rescans are not necessary! and i couldn't
>agree more.
>
That has been the design goal, essentially. A full rescan should not be necessary (but scans for "new/changed music" will always be required).

There was talk about a two-stage scan. The first stage would be to ONLY read tags - more like a cache, to avoid having to re-read tags from files each time these sort of settings were changed. The second stage would then read the tags from the first-stage scan (from the cache in the database), to quickly build up the data in the form that the application uses.

seems brilliant to me... but erland seemed to think it could be slim deciding to take the performance hit at scan time, rather than post scanning.



>take the "treat TPE2 as ____ " option as an example. why can't SC be
>well designed enough so that when that tag populates a field in the DB,
>thats all you need? and then the code of SC can manipulate that field
>to act as either Band or Album Artist? that would be the best way...
Not really, because it means lots of special case logic throughout the code. Everything would need to conditionally decide what to do with the value, and again you are thinking just about id3 tags; there's lots of other formats, even id3v2.3 TXXX ALBUMARTIST support. Imagine if everywhere that needed to read artist/album data, had to then look for several different tags, deciding how to treat each one. The code would be a lot more complex and slower.

Items are write once, read many times for performance.

ok, and this seems to be what erland was saying...

but, what if in the two stage system, the second stage could be continually rebuilt based on whatever options one chose? a quick scan and rebuild, if you will?

i would really like to experiment with how TPE2 is handled, WITHOUT doing long full clear and rescans, and thats just one example. so i hope whatever they come up with can handle that.

erland
2008-12-10, 11:42
but, what if in the two stage system, the second stage could be continually rebuilt based on whatever options one chose? a quick scan and rebuild, if you will?

That's the plan as I've understood it.

Daren
2008-12-14, 23:56
are your questions answered yet?

the first option will group comps together in one place, or let the comp get placed multiple times under every artist on it. (however, somewhat inconsistently, even if you group them, if you browse to any one artist, the comp will show up there too, if the artist is also on a comp, and only that artists song will be available, not all the comps songs.

How do you prevent compilations being listed under every artist? Please refer to my query here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=56445&highlight=Compilation+albums

Philip Meyer
2008-12-15, 02:46
>How do you prevent compilations being listed under every artist? Please
>refer to my query here:
>http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=56445&highlight=Compilation+albums
I have replied under that thread.