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Sike
2008-10-28, 04:57
http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/28/sonos-controller-for-iphone-and-software-2-7-bring-last-fm-inte/

gbruzzo
2008-10-28, 05:30
The Sonos system interfaces with more applications/services than Slimdevices it seems

available on both platforms:

iPhone app
Pandora (US only)
Last.fm
Rhapsody
SIRIUS Internet Radio

NOT available on Slimdevices

Napster

The lack of Napster access (or access to an equivalent service for UK and continental Europe) is a very weak point. The world consists of not only the US, you know - although some may think and act thus.

regards,

Giacomo

ds2021
2008-10-28, 05:36
http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/28/sonos-controller-for-iphone-and-software-2-7-bring-last-fm-inte/

This is actually the fourth of the available iphone/itouch apps for the Sonos system. This one, however, was put out by Sonos themselves in what I think is a fairly smart move.

Although there is a clear trade-off between increasing system appeal and cannibalizing controller sales, I wish the Slim Devices team would have considered the same.</jealousy>

EnochLight
2008-10-28, 06:45
Yeah the fact that this one is officially put out by Sonos and does *EVERYTHING* that their controller does - that's just simply fantastic. Well played Sonos - well played...

I mean for those who don't own or plan to own an iPhone or iPod Touch then the controller will be an option, but taking into consideration that users of network music players tend to be very technically savvy lends one to believe that the same demographic tends to own iPods and iPhones.

That said, I'm slightly biased. I have an iPhone and would love an officially sanctioned iPhone/iPod Touch app for SqueezeCenter!

Gizmodo's Sonos article (http://gizmodo.com/5069681/sonos-audio-system-brings-controller-app-to-iphone-firmware-27-update-with-lastfm-and-15000%252B-radio-stations)

pippin
2008-10-28, 07:08
That said, I'm slightly biased. I have an iPhone and would love an officially sanctioned iPhone/iPod Touch app for SqueezeCenter!


Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
Maybe it's enough if it's good?

ds2021
2008-10-28, 07:25
Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
Maybe it's enough if it's good?

Absolutely. I will be more than glad to pay for a good third party app. Hint hint.

benhaines
2008-10-28, 07:26
I too have an iPhone and would love a native app for SqueezeCenter.

Question then is how does it differentiate itself from the Squeezebox Controller!? Certainly a good way of selling more more receivers :)

ds2021
2008-10-28, 07:30
You can try Pippin's iPeng plugin to witness the potential for differentiation. It is significant.

For me, iPeng's simultaneous multi-player control is a revolutionary improvement. In my experience, this is necessary.

tamanaco
2008-10-28, 07:46
I think folks at SD and independent developers tried going down a similar road a while ago, but found themselves with the restrictions inherent of multipurpose mobile devices, such as PDAs. I find this iPhone Controller app "cute", but not a "real" solution as a "remote" for home use. With the current generation of WiFi chips (including the one in the iPhone) maintaining WiFi connection for prolonged periods is an easy way to quickly drain the phone battery. Not to mention that using the phone for both receiving calls and as a remote is very inconvenient. Imagine the mistress calling you while your wife is using your iPhone as a Sonos remote. The SD Controller, on the other hand, was designed from the ground up as a "dedicated" WiFi home remote with a large rechargeable battery and cradle to address the WiFi power consumption issues. Not a jack of all trades, but a master of the SC Server domain.

What I would like to see in the future from SD/Logitech is SqueezePlay ported for use in Smartphones/iPhones, but as mobile "player" not necessarily as a home remote. (It can work as a remote if you sync it another player at home) With the current generation of 3G phones streaming media from the Internet in large metropolitan areas is a piece of cake. I currently use my Smartphone with PocketPlayer to stream internet radio stations either via AT&T 3G network or via WiFi. Using PocketPlayer WebGuide I tune to Shoutcast Radio station when I'm at work or when I'm on the road in a hotel room. One thing, you need to make sure... is that you get a Smartphone with separated headphone jack so that you can use your charger and headphones simultaneously when listening for prolonged periods. (I tried using Bluetooth stereo headphones, but it was inconvenient and unreliable ) If I had SqueezePlay for Smartphone with SSH tunneling like Softsqueeze I'd be a happy camper. With such a client I'd be able to stream music to my Smartphone from my Music Library in my SC server at home and Internet radio and services via the SqueezeNetwork. I tried using the SC /Handheld Web interface via PIE with PocketPuTTY as an SSH client, but I could not get it to work. I still have not fond a working/reliable SSH tunneling client for Smartphones. Any one out there using a Smartphone as a remote player to a SC server?

jaffacake
2008-10-28, 07:58
Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
Maybe it's enough if it's good?

I don't think it has to be, but there are advantages.

In the case of Sonos, having an official application helps to maintain feature equivalence between controller options. There were some 3rd party options, but they were unable to surface all the of the 3rd party music services like Napster and Rhapsody or browse using Album Art like the official application does.

Even if they did, on the day of the release of Sonos 2.7 they wouldn't have supported any of the new additions like last.fm and Radiotime with it's podcasts etc. This would have meant that 3rd party application users had to wait for the developer to get up to speed on the new functions and then write/test new code. This can all take time, during which the iPod owner would be missing core functions.

If an official controller doesn't work, you can call tech support on the phone and ask for help. With third party tools, you're in the hands of an unknown 3rd party who doesn't have round the clock support and a freephone number.

As it is, Sonos delivered a new iPhone application on the day of release of 2.7. Going forward there will be concurrent releases and feature equivalence meaning a Sonos owner can invest in an Apple controller with the reassurance that it will always support all the newer features going forward. You just couldn't get that with a 3rd party plug-in that's not even guaranteed to have another release.

ds2021
2008-10-28, 08:21
I think folks at SD and independent developers tried going down a similar road a while ago, but found themselves with the restrictions inherent of multipurpose mobile devices, such as PDAs. I find this iPhone Controller app "cute", but not a "real" solution as a "remote" for home use. With the current generation of WiFi chips (including the one in the iPhone) maintaining WiFi connection for prolonged periods is an easy way to quickly drain the phone battery. Not to mention that using the phone for both receiving calls and as a remote is very inconvenient. Imagine the mistress calling you while your wife is using your iPhone as a Sonos remote. The SD Controller, on the other hand, was designed from the ground up as a "dedicated" WiFi home remote with a large rechargeable battery and cradle to address the WiFi power consumption issues. Not a jack of all trades, but a master of the SC Server domain.

Have to disagree. I see iPeng as a superior interface for control of music and especially multiple players. I see the iPhone as superior hardware to the Controller, with its larger screen with multi-touch, better battery life, and better processing capacity. The wi-fi battery drain issues you refer to apply to any device, including the Controller, and my experience is that the battery life on the iPhone (being used not only to control music, but as a phone and internet tablet as well) is superior to the Controller.

Some will clearly prefer the Controller to a multi-purpose handheld device. That is fine, and I hope the Controller suits the needs of those people. My experience has been, mistress aside, that I prefer iPeng to my Controller but lament the latency issues inherent to a web interface.

tamanaco
2008-10-28, 09:09
Have to disagree. I see iPeng as a superior interface for control of music and especially multiple players. I see the iPhone as superior hardware to the Controller, with its larger screen with multi-touch, better battery life, and better processing capacity. The wi-fi battery drain issues you refer to apply to any device, including the Controller, and my experience is that the battery life on the iPhone (being used not only to control music, but as a phone and internet tablet as well) is superior to the Controller. I am eager to try a native app.

I'm glad you're happy with iPeng. I have to assume that you're the only person that uses your iPhone as a remote. As "home" remote a "personal" multipurpose device on the hands of others is an accident wating to happen. As a "personal" remote the iPhone with iPeng is fine. I assume that you keep your phone on at all times to receive calls. This means that you have to connect to the WiFi and Cell network simultaneously to take full advantage of the iPhone as a remote. This connections along with the large touch screen will drain the iPhone battery a lot faster than the battery of a standalone SBC. My experiences using multiple purpose devices as "home" remotes have not been uplifting. That is the reason I mentioned in my post that using a Smartphone/iPhone as "remote" mobile "player" made a lot more sense. Again, if you want to use a Smartphone/iPhone as a remote, synching it to a local or a remote hardware player using SqueezePlay would cover the "remote" aspects when you're home or away.




Some will clearly prefer the Controller to a multi-purpose handheld device. That is fine, and I hope the Controller suits the needs of those people. My experience has been, mistress aside, that I prefer iPeng to my Controller but lament the latency issues inherent to a web interface.

The Controller is a "dedicated" remote with "optional" muscic playing capabilities. I dare to say that the iPhone is a excellent music player with "optional" remote capabilities. I believe that CLI based SqueezePlay on multi-platforms is the way to go... but to each its own.

Edit: Btw, the full capabilities of the SBC has not yet been exploited... I believe there is an IR in there that has the potential to be used to control other AV system components.

pippin
2008-10-28, 09:56
I'm glad you're happy with iPeng. I have to assume that you're the only person that uses your iPhone as a remote. As "home" remote a "personal" multipurpose device on the hands of others is an accident wating to happen. As a "personal" remote the iPhone with iPeng is fine. I assume that you keep your phone on at all times to receive calls. This means that you have to connect to the WiFi and Cell network simultaneously to take full advantage of the iPhone as a remote. This connections along with the large touch screen will drain the iPhone battery a lot faster than the battery of a standalone SBC. My experiences using multiple purpose devices as "home" remotes have not been uplifting. That is the reason I mentioned in my post that using a Smartphone/iPhone as "remote" mobile "player" made a lot more sense. Again, if you want to use a Smartphone/iPhone as a remote, synching it to a local or a remote hardware player using SqueezePlay would cover the "remote" aspects when you're home or away.


I don't care about all this dedicated/non-dedicated stuff, but I have to admit, that I prefer my iPod touch over my iPhone as a remote :-)

I don't exactly understand your point about the battery lifetime.
My iPhone is ALWAYS connected to my home WLAN when I'm home. Power management is good, it usually lasts for at least three days, including regular e-mail pulling, some browsing and use as a remote. My SBC lasts for one day.
When I don't use them for a while, both will shut off, which means with iPeng (the skin, not the app), it will take approx. 10s until you are back connected. Which is still faster than the SBC. The iPeng app takes 2-3s.
When I introduced playback through iPeng, I did a test on how long the battery lasts while doing playback, and since this is running through the browser this also included leaving the screen on and leaving WLAN on.
The result (http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?p=65) shows that it runs for a bit more than 5 hours of continuous playback, I have to do that test with my SBC.

ds2021
2008-10-28, 09:58
I have to assume that you're the only person that uses your iPhone as a remote.

That is an odd assumption.


I assume that you keep your phone on at all times to receive calls. This means that you have to connect to the WiFi and Cell network simultaneously to take full advantage of the iPhone as a remote. This connections along with the large touch screen will drain the iPhone battery a lot faster than the battery of a standalone SBC.

That has not been my experience. I have not done my own objective tests, but my subjective experience is that the iPhone lasts much, much longer. Pippin's objective power consumption tests (http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?p=65) - with the addition of streaming music - dramatically outpace anything my Controller is capable of. That test is much more demanding than typical use, in which auto-lock is on, no streaming takes place, and phone and remote use is intermittent.

In defence of the controller, I believe that it tends to keep the wi-fi connection active for longer than the iPhone. This is evidenced by the immediate response to track control and volume adjustment. However, I would prefer the wait of a few seconds (literally) in the name of longer battery life. Of course, eventually the Controller shuts down wi-fi as well, in which case delays are comparable.

tamanaco
2008-10-28, 10:31
That is an odd assumption.

Why is it odd?... I don't let anyone near my Smartphone. I have "personal" data stored there. Looking at my browsing history, you'll also find out the web sites I have visited (Including financial institution sites) I also use my Smartphone for business and personal email. Again, I don't want my wife or anyone else to find the emails from my mistress. Do you have an iPhone dedicated to iPeng?




That has not been my experience. I have not done my own objective tests, but my subjective experience is that the iPhone lasts much, much longer. Pippin's objective power consumption tests (http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?p=65) - with the addition of streaming music - dramatically outpace anything my controller is capable of. That test is much more demanding than typical use, in which auto-lock is on, no streaming takes place, and phone and remote use is intermittent.

In defence of the controller, I believe that it tends to keep the wi-fi connection active for longer than the iPhone. This is evidenced by the immediate response to track control and volume adjustment. However, I would prefer the wait of a few seconds (literally) in the name of longer battery life. Of course, eventually the Controller shuts down wi-fi as well, in which case delays are comparable.

Again, I'm going to assume that you use the iPhone for "other" functions other than just as a remote. Do you talk on the phone for prolonged periods of time? Do you get a lot of calls? I do. Talking on the phone drains the battery. I also use my Smartphone to play games and play multimedia... that drains the battery. In my case they're are not comparable... my Smartphone is "always on" and most likely on my person to receive/send calls, messages and emails. The SBC is in its cradle most of the time. My wife is going to use the controller and not bother me while I'm hiding in the bathroom talking, messaging or emailing my mistress. Maybe we have different philosophies as it relates to the use of cell phones. Maybe your cell phone is more of a communal device... my remote is communal... my Smartphone is not.

Edit: By definition "similar" multi-purpose devices will consume a lot more power than a single-purpose devices whose single purpose is in the subset of the multi-purpose devices. Of course, I hold the only "unpublished" patent to a perpetual motion device.

ds2021
2008-10-28, 10:50
Why is it odd?... I don't let anyone near my Smartphone.

Ok, I understand what you mean now. I am not as protective of my phone, actually encouraging my wife to use it on certain occasions. She does not have any interest in using it or my Controller as a remote however.


Maybe we have different philosophies as it relates to the use of cell phones.

Yes, I think it boils down to this. The introduction of a mistress would likely push me towards an ipod touch for use as a remote however.

tamanaco
2008-10-28, 11:23
Yes, I think it boils down to this. The introduction of a mistress would likely push me towards an ipod touch for use as a remote however.

Sounds like plan... Now let me ask you... Can you access your SC server remotely via the Internet with your iPhone using iPeng?... If so, how? I want to access my SC server via my Smartphone "securely". I also looked for SSH clients for the iPhone and I could not locate one... do you know if such a client exist for the iPhone... Thanks

ddewey
2008-10-28, 11:43
Quoting tamanaco (tamanaco.3i06vn1225218302 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com):

>
> ds2021;354317 Wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I think it boils down to this. The introduction of a mistress
> > would likely push me towards an ipod touch for use as a remote however.
>
> Sounds like plan... Now let me ask you... Can you access your SC server
> remotely via the Internet with your iPhone using iPeng?... If so, how? I
> want to access my SC server via my Smartphone "securely". I also looked
> for SSH clients for the iPhone and I could not locate one... do you
> know if such a client exist for the iPhone... Thanks

Short answer, yes... you can open SC up to the internet and put a
password on it, alternatively with additional layers of ip-based
authentication. You can use VPN.

There are a bunch of ssh clients for the iphone available in the
AppStore. I have 3 or 4 installed.

ds2021
2008-10-28, 11:49
Sounds like plan... Now let me ask you... Can you access your SC server remotely via the Internet with your iPhone using iPeng?... If so, how? I want to access my SC server via my Smartphone "securely". I also looked for SSH clients for the iPhone and I could not locate one... do you know if such a client exist for the iPhone... Thanks

I have set up DYNDNS (one of several dynamic dns services available) and my router's port forwarding to allow me to do so. To do it, I would go to http://user.dyndns.com:port/ipeng. This on its own likely does not constitute secure. You can password protect SqueezeCenter, but I am not sure that even that is the height of security.

The above accesses SC. If I wanted to access the server itself, I might use one of the available VNC or SSH clients that are able for the iphone/touch (iSSH, Jaadu, or Mohca). If you have iTunes, you can go to the app-store and look at these.

Juggler
2008-10-28, 12:06
Not sure if you have already seen this, it seems to be garnering a lot of press:
http://www.sonos.com/whattobuy/controllers/iphone/default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=4105

Any chance that we will see a similar offering, i.e. SqueezePlay ported to an iPhone/iPod Touch?

tamanaco
2008-10-28, 12:08
I have set up DYNDNS (one of several dynamic dns services available) and my router's port forwarding to allow me to do so. To do it, I would go to http://user.dyndns.com:port/ipeng. This on its own likely does not constitute secure. You can password protect SqueezeCenter, but I am not sure that even that is the height of security.

The above accesses SC. If I wanted to access the server itself, I might use one of the available VNC or SSH clients that are able for the iphone/touch (iSSH, Jaadu, or Mohca). If you have iTunes, you can go to the app-store and look at these.

I also use DynDNS and No-ip in conjuntion with Bitvise WinSSHD to securely connect to my SC server using SoftSqueeze with SSH when I'm using a remote desktop. I also use Bitvise Tunnelier to access the server via Remote Desktop . With my old PDA with WiFi I can connect using PocketPuTTY and PIE to the /Handheld Web UI but with that setup the PDA can only browse SC it can not act as a player. I'm impressed... there are that many SSH clients for the iPhone. I've been concentrating on free SSH clients for the Smartphone I might have to start looking for a commercial client.

pippin
2008-10-28, 14:04
One thing: I did NOT succeed in using SSH with iPeng with a non-jailbroken phone since you cannot have background processes.
What DOES work (although it's more complicated) though, is using a VPN, e.g. with IPSec.

erland
2008-10-28, 21:47
Assuming Apple allows it, there will soon be third party offerings available. There are at least two different iPhone applications for SqueezeCenter in restricted beta testing at the moment.

I have no idea if Logitech have similar plans for Squeezeplay, but I suspect they haven't since the the current Squeezeplay code will be hard to combine with the Apple licensing restrictions.

If you don't want to wait, there is always the third party iPeng plugin/skin available already today.

EnochLight
2008-10-28, 22:07
Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
Maybe it's enough if it's good?

An officially sanctioned app tends to have all of the functionality or bells and whistles. That said, if a 3rd party developer (or forum member) can come up with a worthy offering, I'd happily slap my $9.99 USD down for it on the iTunes App store. Or take it free... as the the Sonos offering came about.


You can try Pippin's iPeng plugin to witness the potential for differentiation. It is significant.

For me, iPeng's simultaneous multi-player control is a revolutionary improvement. In my experience, this is necessary.

As soon as Pippin distributes the iPeng plugin as an official app via the iTunes App store, I'd be happy to. In the meantime, I'd rather not have to jailbreak my iPhone.


...I find this iPhone Controller app "cute", but not a "real" solution as a "remote" for home use. With the current generation of WiFi chips (including the one in the iPhone) maintaining WiFi connection for prolonged periods is an easy way to quickly drain the phone battery. Not to mention that using the phone for both receiving calls and as a remote is very inconvenient. ....

This argument is simply ridiculous. I carry my iPhone in my pocket with me at all times. To be able to take it out at any time anywhere in the house and access SqueezeCenter and all of my Squeezeboxes would be far from "cute". It would be freak'n kick arse.

Battery life and the WiFi chip used in the iPhone has never been a problem for my use on my home network. I come home, it hops on the network when I wake it up from standby - ironically alot *FASTER* than my Duet's Controller if it's sitting in sleep mode off of the charger. It lasts throughout the day/night.

Do you even own an iPhone/iPod Touch?

At any rate, the person that this setup would appeal to would find it incredibly useful and an excellent complement to the Controller. 99% of the people out there don't walk around with a Controller in their pocket. An iPhone on the other hand.... There have been a hundred times when I left my SB playing in the livingroom and decided that I wanted to turn it off or adjust the volume/track while in the basement. Having left the Controller in the livingroom on the charger, I would love to be able to launch an app on my iPhone (that resides in my pocket) and go to town.

And as far as incoming calls - no worries - that's the beauty about having a device that not only serves as cell phone but a gazillion other things as well. Answer the call, finish the conversation, and then resume jamming to your tunes. What's the big deal?

I can think of no reason why this isn't a good idea, aside from Slim/Logitech worrying that it will take away from Controller sales - in which case that's too bad...

...but Sonos did it... ;^p

autopilot
2008-10-29, 01:47
Why cant Squeezeplay just be compiled for the iPhone?

amcluesent
2008-10-29, 02:01
I see Linn has open-sourced their PDA controller s/w, but it's targeted at Windows Mobile 6.

So it seems both Linn and Slimdevices are in need of an open-source controller for Touch/iPhone...

Collaboration wouldn't be too weird, there is already SkweezyDs to serve Linn streamers from the Squeezecenter.

Paul Webster
2008-10-29, 02:03
Demo video - showing it off very well
http://www.sonos.com/whattobuy/controllers/iphone/default.aspx

pippin
2008-10-29, 02:04
Why cant Squeezeplay just be compiled for the iPhone?

because it violates Apples license agreement.

autopilot
2008-10-29, 04:58
because it violates Apples license agreement.

In what way exactly? Whats so different about Sonos? Or iSqueeze etc?

pippin
2008-10-29, 05:49
In what way exactly? Whats so different about Sonos? Or iSqueeze etc?

No LUA.
Also, just compiling will not give you a usable UI on iPhone.

tamanaco
2008-10-29, 06:08
This argument is simply ridiculous. I carry my iPhone in my pocket with me at all times. To be able to take it out at any time anywhere in the house and access SqueezeCenter and all of my Squeezeboxes would be far from "cute". It would be freak'n kick arse.

Battery life and the WiFi chip used in the iPhone has never been a problem for my use on my home network. I come home, it hops on the network when I wake it up from standby - ironically alot *FASTER* than my Duet's Controller if it's sitting in sleep mode off of the charger. It lasts throughout the day/night.

Do you even own an iPhone/iPod Touch?

At any rate, the person that this setup would appeal to would find it incredibly useful and an excellent complement to the Controller. 99% of the people out there don't walk around with a Controller in their pocket. An iPhone on the other hand.... There have been a hundred times when I left my SB playing in the livingroom and decided that I wanted to turn it off or adjust the volume/track while in the basement. Having left the Controller in the livingroom on the charger, I would love to be able to launch an app on my iPhone (that resides in my pocket) and go to town.

And as far as incoming calls - no worries - that's the beauty about having a device that not only serves as cell phone but a gazillion other things as well. Answer the call, finish the conversation, and then resume jamming to your tunes. What's the big deal?

I can think of no reason why this isn't a good idea, aside from Slim/Logitech worrying that it will take away from Controller sales - in which case that's too bad...

...but Sonos did it... ;^p

To begin, as a courtesy, I never call anyone else's argument "ridiculous". I respect everyone's opinions. I state my case on my post or reply and let the readers draw their own conclusion. I guess you did not read my full argument. I said that the iPhone with iPeng or a SqueezePlay derivative solution is "fine" as "personal" remote not as "home" remote that everyone and their family and friends can use. I don't know about you, but my Smartphone is too personal and not for anyone else to use. Yes, the Sonos solution is a "cute" solution for "one" user not practical for "home" use. If someone else in your household is using your iPhone to create Playlist and you receive a call from work that's going to keep you on the iPhone for an hour... what's the person that was creating the playlist supposed to do in the meantime?... I know... they should get their own iPhone. My nephew has an iPhone on which we installed iPeng. We tested we liked, but he took his iPhone with him. Btw, no one walks around with a "remote' in their pocket because is not a multipurpose device it's always at home in the vicinity of the AV system where "anyone" can use it. I have to assume that your iPhone has either infinite battery life or you do not use it for long calls, you do not receive many calls and you do not fully take advantage of all its other multimedia capabilities on an ongoing basis. I just got an Samsung Epix for work and personal use because it comes with 18000 mAh battery. I'm giving up a couple bells and whistles, but since I use my Smartphone to make a lot of business calls and send a lot MMS messages with pictures it was the most sensible way for me to go. Battery life is the Achilles heel of all these mobile devices if you use them for prolonged periods of time... No one can argue that. The iPhone 3G comes with just a 1200 mAh battery... with the way I use my Smartphone that battery would barely last me a day. I know I can get a Mobile Power Pack... but who wants to carry that. At the end of the day I'd have to recharge it and would not be able to have it in my pocket while I walk around my house to use it as a remote. I guess the folks that see the Sonos and iPeng solutions as very practical do not use the other features of their iPhone on a "extensive" regular basis and use their iPhone as a "personal" remote. When a Squeezeplay derivative for Smartphones comes out, I'll use it, but as "personal" player, remote and on a limited basis. For me the issue is not so much hardware "performance" in the way you describe it... but more an issue of convenience.

Edit: I don't think SD/Logitech is worried about loosing controller sales to an app like the Sonos for SC. SD "open" practices allow for more outside competition than the Sonos "closed" solution. I believe that Sonos never saw the iPhone app as "replacement" for their hardware remote. They realized the limitation of the iPhone app solution.

bklaas
2008-10-29, 06:45
Apple's restrictive licensing rules are indeed prohibitive to running Squeezeplay on an iAnything. There is no Lua interpreter, and they won't allow us to put one on the thing. Point the finger at Apple for that. I'll leave it up to you which finger.

As Erland pointed out, control of a squeezebox via an iPhone/Touch has been available for quite a while through Pippin's wonderful iPeng offering. Also there is a 3rd party effort well underway towards writing a stand-alone app for the iPhone for Squeezebox control called iSqueeze. See this forum thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=51849&highlight=iSqueeze

cheers,
#!/ben

pippin
2008-10-29, 06:55
You do realize, that there is also the iPod touch, don't you?
From the feedback I get on iPeng I believe there are more people using that one than the actual iPhone as a remote control.
And it can still play music, and let's you browse the internet in bed...

Luke Redpath
2008-10-29, 07:07
Guess I better hurry up and release iSqueeze...just got to iron out those last few bugs. The Sonos app looks really nice and gives me a few ideas for future iSqueeze versions.

pippin
2008-10-29, 07:21
and gives me a few ideas for future iSqueeze versions.

Really?
Does it have anything iPeng (skin) doesn't?

tamanaco
2008-10-29, 07:56
You do realize, that there is also the iPod touch, don't you?
From the feedback I get on iPeng I believe there are more people using that one than the actual iPhone as a remote control.
And it can still play music, and let's you browse the internet in bed...

My argument was mostly related to the iPhone/Smartphone. Using the iPod Touch is a more appealing. But... the iPod Touch only has WiFi which narrows its use to home WiFi networks and to WiFi hotspots. iPhones and Smartphones with 3G widens the area of coverage where one can use them as streamed media "players"... not necessarely as "remotes". Using 3G somewhat reduces battery drain as I compare it to the current generation of WiFi chipsets in our phones.

jaffacake
2008-10-29, 08:03
I think you guys could argue this point forever, you're all right and all wrong at the same time...because there are 2 completely different markets for this kind of product and you're arguing from both camps.

The first market are those who already own an iPhone or iPod touch. They carry it all the time, especially in the case of the phone, and it's a convenience to them if they can also control their music system from this device. An official or unofficial solution is suited to this market as they didn't buy the device for this purpose and any solution (even if it wasn't fully functioned or didn't work particularly well) is a bonus. Battery life, sharing the device etc. isn't a concern as only they will use it and then only from time to time.

The second market comes from people who want a nice modern touchscreen controller. As well as being "cool" the touch interface also adds benefits in the form of an on-screen keyboard - ideal for artist/track searches which aren't so easy on a scroll wheel. For these people, this cool controller starts at $220 for a basic iPod Touch...it's a great price. Not only that, it can also be used as a portable media player with local music/video playback and it's a great little web browser.

Sonos CR100 controller? $399 - Squeezebox Controller $292.12 (amazon.com) - iPod Touch 8GB $219.94 (amazon.com)

It's obvious to see the attraction here, the iPod option is not only touch screen, but it can save $$ over the price of the proprietary controller option. People WILL buy them as dedicated controllers. People WILL pass them around at parties and people WILL treat them like any other controller.

You run the Sonos controller on an iPod touch and it works like the CR100 controller only with a better screen and a touchscreen UI. You put it on the coffee table, it goes to sleep. You pick it up, the Sonos controller is still there when it wakes. No need to switch tasks, no complications, no extra effort. You run that Sonos controller software and keep it running and that's all it will ever be...the fact that it has an Apple badge on the backside makes no difference to the end user. You just use it, and charge it, like any other controller.

tamanaco
2008-10-29, 08:24
I think you guys could argue this point forever, you're all right and all wrong at the same time...because there are 2 completely different markets for this kind of product and you're arguing from both camps.

The first market are those who already own an iPhone or iPod touch. They carry it all the time, especially in the case of the phone, and it's a convenience to them if they can also control their music system from this device. An official or unofficial solution is suited to this market as they didn't buy the device for this purpose and any solution (even if it wasn't fully functioned or didn't work particularly well) is a bonus. Battery life, sharing the device etc. isn't a concern as only they will use it and then only from time to time.

The second market comes from people who want a nice modern touchscreen controller. As well as being "cool" the touch interface also adds benefits in the form of an on-screen keyboard - ideal for artist/track searches which aren't so easy on a scroll wheel. For these people, this cool controller starts at $220 for a basic iPod Touch...it's a great price. Not only that, it can also be used as a portable media player with local music/video playback and it's a great little web browser.

Sonos CR100 controller? $399 - Squeezebox Controller $292.12 (amazon.com) - iPod Touch 8GB $219.94 (amazon.com)

It's obvious to see the attraction here, the iPod option is not only touch screen, but it can save $$ over the price of the proprietary controller option. People WILL buy them as dedicated controllers. People WILL pass them around at parties and people WILL treat them like any other controller.

You run the Sonos controller on an iPod touch and it works like the CR100 controller only with a better screen and a touchscreen UI. You put it on the coffee table, it goes to sleep. You pick it up, the Sonos controller is still there when it wakes. No need to switch tasks, no complications, no extra effort. You run that Sonos controller software and keep it running and that's all it will ever be...the fact that it has an Apple badge on the backside makes no difference to the end user. You just use it, and charge it, like any other controller.


Clarifying my points:

1. - Controller makes a better "home" remote for communal use. So does the iPod Touch or any dedicated media player with a decent interface and wifi.

2. - An iPhone or Smartphone are a bit of overkill as "home" remotes if you use their other functions on an ongoing basis for prolonged periods of time. Battery life is more of an issue for mobile multi-use battery powered devices that it is for single-use battery powered devices. They might make good "personal" remotes, but not a good "home" remotes.

3. - What I'm looking for is a good SSH client for my Smartphone or a derivative of SqueezePlay with SSH for this platform so that I can expand/widen its use as a streamed media "player" to include my SC server which at the same time would give me "personal" remote capabilities as I sync it with a hardware player at home

Luke Redpath
2008-10-29, 09:25
Really?
Does it have anything iPeng (skin) doesn't?

I don't know; I wasn't just thinking in terms of features, more improvements.

DaveWr
2008-10-29, 11:17
The second market comes from people who want a nice modern touchscreen controller. As well as being "cool" the touch interface also adds benefits in the form of an on-screen keyboard - ideal for artist/track searches which aren't so easy on a scroll wheel. For these people, this cool controller starts at $220 for a basic iPod Touch...it's a great price. Not only that, it can also be used as a portable media player with local music/video playback and it's a great little web browser.

Sonos CR100 controller? $399 - Squeezebox Controller $292.12 (amazon.com) - iPod Touch 8GB $219.94 (amazon.com)

It's obvious to see the attraction here, the iPod option is not only touch screen, but it can save $$ over the price of the proprietary controller option. People WILL buy them as dedicated controllers. People WILL pass them around at parties and people WILL treat them like any other controller.



I agree entirely. The SBC is interesting but does not yet perform as a system remote. For that I utilise a Logitech Harmony One. I need it to allow my family to control the whole TV / Sound System with ease. It works on a state basis and is used to select from a range of simple options (Listen to Music, Watch Film, Watch TV, etc....) Its a pity it does not have WiFi to fully integrate the Squeezbox experience - and its a relatively cheap touch screen + button device.

I think this would be a better prospect for Logitech / Slim long term. The SBC is just too dedicated for it's price level.

The use of an iPod Touch as an additional controller is simple (although until we have a fully localised application there are some performance frustration issues). The price / performance ration is likely to remain unbeatable.

I realise the views expressed are personal, there is no perfect solution, bt the SBC role seems a little limited.

Just leaves one question Pippin - when's the native application finished?

Regards

David

JJZolx
2008-10-29, 11:38
The iPhone/Touch platform is one of the last areas where there's any significant 3rd party development activity for Squeezebox. It would seem rather dumb for Logitech to develop their own application when developers in the community are willing to do so.

DaveWr
2008-10-29, 11:48
Well lot's of the major developer's seemed to end up on the Slim payroll. Also the excitement of LUA development doesn't seen to have attracted many plug in developers.

Agree with your sentiment - it's up to Logitech / Slim - who want's to earn the revenue?

I would be very happy with a native iPod App and a Logitech Harmony derivative. I have a media lounge and the a whole house / garden to cover.

Regards

David

Goodsounds
2008-10-29, 12:09
The iPhone/Touch platform is one of the last areas where there's any significant 3rd party development activity for Squeezebox. It would seem rather dumb for Logitech to develop their own application when developers in the community are willing to do so.

Logitech sells hardware, and so will focus development on things to enhance market acceptance, improve the user experience and eliminate problems. The biggest bang for the buck is realized from enhancements and changes that affect the greatest number of people.

The iphone/touch platform is only one group of dozens of devices that can be used over wifi to control SB music. Having a native application is likely of interest to only a small percentage of its owners since browser access is always available. And, don't forget these devices are competition for the controller that the company wouldn't necessarily want to further encourage people to use.

Logitech will act rationally as a business, which means that it would pursue any reasonable business opportunity. My bet is that developing a native app for i-devices is unlikely to be a significant opportunity. And, having one is unlikely to sell a significant number of additional boxes.

gweempose
2008-10-29, 12:49
It would seem rather dumb for Logitech to develop their own application when developers in the community are willing to do so.I think you missed the point that David was making. Logitech has a unique opportunity on their hands to combine two of their existing products into an even more attractive offering. A Harmony remote with built-in Squeezebox control would be a very compelling product indeed. In fact, I've been saying that Logitech should do this since the day they bought Slim Devices. I happen to be a fan of URC remotes, and I generally shy away from the Harmony line. That being said, a Harmony/SBC combo would really make me think long and hard about my next remote purchase.

tamanaco
2008-10-29, 13:05
I think you missed the point that David was making. Logitech has a unique opportunity on their hands to combine two of their existing products into an even more attractive offering. A Harmony remote with built-in Squeezebox control would be a very compelling product indeed. In fact, I've been saying that Logitech should do this since the day they bought Slim Devices. I happen to be a fan of URC remotes, but a Harmony/SBC combo would really have to make me think hard about my next remote purchase.

I subscribed to the Harmony Universal/Controller believers' club before the Controller existed and Logitech came into the picture. Later, I even remember asking if the Logitech Harmony developers could share some of the available code (device specific IR codes) with the Logitech/SD developers to use with the Controller but was told that this was not possible. I forgot the exact reason given, but I think it had to do with these codes not being in the public domain. Given that the Controller has an IR port that has yet to be exploited it seemed like a natural next step. The lack of a keypad and touchscreen in the controller limits this evolution with the existing controller hardware... ergonomically at least.

DaveWr
2008-10-29, 14:16
You could still port the application. So Apple won't let you fit LUA. LUA was your choice. Others appear to be creating native apps, so could you.

Regards

David

dean
2008-10-29, 14:25
I think that porting SqueezePlay to iPhone would be a mistake from a
user-interface perspective.

iPhone apps should feel like native application.

The good news is that there are several native iPhone Squeezebox
applications under development now, plus the existing iPeng skin.

bklaas
2008-10-29, 14:26
You could still port the application. So Apple won't let you fit LUA. LUA was your choice. Others appear to be creating native apps, so could you.

Regards

David

I never said creating an iPhone app to control Squeezeboxes wasn't possible, just not Squeezeplay. The licensing restriction is what makes it prohibitive from porting SqueezePlay to the iPhone. Squeezeplay uses Lua to drive the UI, and that's not going to change.

cheers,
#!/ben

lanierb
2008-10-29, 15:44
One reason they don't do it might be that it could undercut controller sales. Not sure if that's it, but it's one reason for Logitech not to do it.

Somehow the market has to sort all this out. It seems like what we really need is an iPhone that has universal remote capability (preferably via wifi not IR) including a native SB controller app, and can stream Rhapsody locally, as well as many other things. The funny thing is that this is all technologically easy but is currently blocked either by old technologies (most media components still only accept IR commands) or IP problems (Apple won't let anyone stream music to an iPhone but them).

peterw
2008-10-29, 18:09
From a business standpoint, this looks like a smart move for exactly one reason: offloading costs & risks to Apple. The Sonos controller is dated, big, clunky, and inferior to the Squeezebox Controller in pretty much every respect. Rather than do the hard work of making better hardware, they're leveraging Apple's design, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, etc. Smart, though it makes me wonder if Sonos is running out of ideas.

From a UI standpoint, who cares? There was only one part of the demo video that looked interesting, the concept of proportionately related volume control for a group of synchronized players. Beyond that, I saw nothing significant that isn't already in SqueezeCenter+SqueezePlay 7.2. It looks like early Controller firmware -- text-heavy, lots of "missed opportunities". And it's an English-only app right now -- they didn't even localize it? Is this just a market test, to see if they can bail on making Rev 2 hardware and just use iPod Touch devices? If it goes well, they'll start to flesh out the UI on this app?

Oh, and as cool as the iPod Touch/iPhone interface is (and I mean Apple's basic UI, not the new Sonos app), it looks like a two-handed UI. Probably better than the clunky old Sonos controller, but, unlike the Squeezebox Controller, not usable with one hand. I'd definitely install the Sonos app if I had an iPod Touch and Sonos gear (just as I'd try iPeng), but even with this new software, Sonos doesn't have a controller option that really competes with the Squeezebox Controller.

peterw
2008-10-29, 18:14
I never said creating an iPhone app to control Squeezeboxes wasn't possible, just not Squeezeplay. The licensing restriction is what makes it prohibitive from porting SqueezePlay to the iPhone. Squeezeplay uses Lua to drive the UI, and that's not going to change.


Also SqueezePlay has an API for third-party plugins. My understanding of the Apple you-don't-really-own-that-shiny-device SDK rules is that apps like SqueezePlay or Firefox that can host 3rd-party plugins are not allowed.

http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2008/03/has-apple-banne.html

-Peter

JJZolx
2008-10-29, 18:52
From a business standpoint, this looks like a smart move for exactly one reason: offloading costs & risks to Apple. The Sonos controller is dated, big, clunky, and inferior to the Squeezebox Controller in pretty much every respect. Rather than do the hard work of making better hardware, they're leveraging Apple's design, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, etc. Smart, though it makes me wonder if Sonos is running out of ideas.

I think you're way out in left field if you think they've developed that application simply so that they no longer have to develop and sell their own controller. They seem to have simply created an application that enables customers to use a very nice interface on a very popular gadget.


Is this just a market test, to see if they can bail on making Rev 2 hardware and just use iPod Touch devices? If it goes well, they'll start to flesh out the UI on this app?

Again, this strikes me as a really strange take on a simple software release.

pippin
2008-10-29, 19:40
Also SqueezePlay has an API for third-party plugins. My understanding of the Apple you-don't-really-own-that-shiny-device SDK rules is that apps like SqueezePlay or Firefox that can host 3rd-party plugins are not allowed.


That's not fully true.
It's not allowed to introduce technologies to do this.
It IS allowed as long as you use Apple's

erland
2008-10-29, 22:05
You could still port the application. So Apple won't let you fit LUA. LUA was your choice. Others appear to be creating native apps, so could you.

Sure they can, but it also has to make sense from a business point of view.

You will have to have to remember that Logitech earns money on the Controller and a free iPhone application from Logitech would be very confusing, since it would compete with the Controller which they earn money on. Of course they could make an iPhone application which they charge for, but they would have to charge enough for it to earn back the costs of developing the application plus the costs of decreased Controller sells. If they can't run the current code without a major rewrite, the developing costs are going to be higher.

An iPhone application might of course also make the Squeezebox products more attractive, so they might sell more squeezebox'es. But this will happen anyway, because there are already third party applications for iPhone towards SqueezeCenter under development.

So the only situation where it makes sense to me for Logitech to do an iPhone application is if it would be really simple and they could use most of the existig Squeezeplay code. However, as Dean suggest, simply porting Squeezeplay to iPhone without doing major modifications to the user interface wouldn't be a good idea. It would never be able to compete with the third party offerings which have been designed specifically for the iPhone.

So to sum it up, my guess is that Logitech is going to do as they have always done earlier related to the Squeezebox products. They focus their developers on the software close to their hardware and work together with the community to make it possible for third party developers to enhance the experience with extra features and support for third party hardware, for example an iPhone application for the Squeezebox products.

jaffacake
2008-10-30, 03:14
One reason they don't do it might be that it could undercut controller sales. Not sure if that's it, but it's one reason for Logitech not to do it.


Yes, it's inevitably going to change the sales demographic for Sonos. People are likely to buy less controllers and also less of the bundles containing controllers. Sales of CR100 controllers will undoubtedly drop.

But this is a 4 year old product and Sonos have had very good mileage out of it. All the R&D required to develop that original product was huge. Back in 2004 the components within it were extremely expensive. Prices of LCD screens, li-ion batteries and wifi components may have dropped since, but back then they cost a fortune. Take off the cost of shipping, packaging, dealer margins and tax off the price and it's clear that it must have taken a considerable time for Sonos to see return on the investment required in the controller development.

Things moved on considerably before the launch of the SB controller, meaning it could be produced cheaper and some key components, like the LCD display, are of a higher quality that the Sonos CR100 for a lower retail price. Logitech also have the advantage of their extensive consumer electronics manufacturing background and production facilities in the far east.

But the SB controller is still new and I doubt any business model had it producing a true return on investment in the 6 months or so since it's launch this year. They will need to shift more units of this product before introducing a free option for iPhone but, saying that, I doubt it will be that long until they do as they can't afford to be that far behind in the marketplace.


There was only one part of the demo video that looked interesting, the concept of proportionately related volume control for a group of synchronized players.

FYI - This has been a Sonos function since the day of release 4yrs ago and is available from CR100, PC, Mac and now iPhone controllers.

tamanaco
2008-10-30, 05:34
I don't know... but I feel that a well designed "dedicated" hardware remote is still a better solution to control any AV system than a device that was not designed from the ground up to be a remote. The Controller is not perfect, but is a good first attempt to control the SC/SB system. From the beginning I felt that it needed a keypad or touchscreen in addition to the scroll wheel to be a better remote. Without either of these the potential for it to evolve into an ergonomically efficient "Universal" remote is limited. The ability to "quickly" enter letters to execute album/track searches or ability to enter numbers to change channels won't be there. The Sonos app on an iPhone/iPod Touch is not perfect either. Not only does it have be connected to WiFi, but you have to "start" the Sonos application. What if the iPhone fails to start the app? What if you have to reset/reboot the iPhone? This is not not to say that the Controller won't face the same issue, but the potential for crashes in a multipurpose/multiapp device is a lot greater. I'm from the school of stand-alone components. I don't want an integrated AV system or a multi-user "home" remote to be tied up doing other things. I don't thing I'm the only one that feels this way. So it is nice to know that there are choices out there for those that don't feel this way.

I think Sonos sees the iPhone app as a compliment to their hardware remote. Maybe this app is there to fill the gap before they release a new and improved hardware remote. How many Sonos users own an iPhone? How many iPhone user know/knew of Sonos? I see this Sonos app as a strategy to "expose" iPhone/iPod Touch users to the Sonos. The Sonos iPhone Controller is a free application. I doubt that Sonos introduced it to cannibalized their hardware sales. Is more likely that they are using it to introduce their hardware system to a big existing and growing population of iPhone/iPod touch users.

DaveWr
2008-10-30, 12:21
Hi Erland, Dean etc.

I was not strictly arguing for a port of Squeezeplay. I am a proud and committed supporter of the whole Squeezebox approach. I am just concerned about ensuring that the future of Slim is not compromised as this type of music technology becomes mainstream.

The Squeezecenter software is by far the best and most flexible management environment of all the current players. But we now see Linn DS capable of connection to Squeezecenter (developed by one of their own staff).

The Sonos support of iPhone / iTouch now provides them a significantly lower entry price for new users. iPhone now 10 million users, iTouch we will never know.

Now as Dean has said we can look forward to the native iPeng, probably iSqueeze as well. But this is down to the commitment of third parties who today are supporting the Squeeze environment, but it is not necessarily in the control of the Slim team.

If people start streaming to these devices - they have digital outputs, then even the SB can be bypassed. I don't wish to cause offence, I just wish the best routes for success of our beloved Slim Devices product family.

I expect I will get and pay for a native iPeng application. But I wouldn't like this type of option to undermine the profitability and future of Slim.

Just a few provocative thoughts.

Regards & Long Live Slim Devices

David

dineniso
2008-10-31, 01:25
There are two different remotes in development:

iPeng
http://penguinlovesmusic.de/

iSqueeze
http://lukeredpath.co.uk/

The first one is open source and free, the second one is commercial and shall cost more than 7,-€ (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=51849&highlight=iSqueeze)

I would like to see an application as stable as the Sonos one. Sonos is much more expensive and the closed wifi is not acceptable, but they seem much more polished in general, as the iPhone app shows...

Please support such an app or both, if you want the people to buy your products, I was waiting for more than two years for a combination like iPhone and Squeezebox/Sonos (see forums). Squeezebox isn't only cheaper, its open source in many parts, that makes my decision simple.

amcluesent
2008-10-31, 01:39
I'm beginning to think the SBR/SBC design was a mistake.

The lack of IR on the SBR is major nuisance for those of us with IR based remotes like Pronto which work fine with SB3/TP.

And the SBC is too expensive for what it does (yes, even with 7.3 activation of the line-out) unless Logitech can enable Pronto levels of functionality as a universal/learning IR controller.

I'm minded that the community of Touch/iPhone owners and music streamer owners has a huge overlap. Having a controller app for the Touch/iPhone is pretty much a 'hygiene factor' for any supplier now.

Jim Wald
2008-10-31, 01:53
I think Sonos sees the iPhone app as a compliment to their hardware remote. Maybe this app is there to fill the gap before they release a new and improved hardware remote. How many Sonos users own an iPhone? How many iPhone user know/knew of Sonos? I see this Sonos app as a strategy to "expose" iPhone/iPod Touch users to the Sonos. The Sonos iPhone Controller is a free application. I doubt that Sonos introduced it to cannibalized their hardware sales. Is more likely that they are using it to introduce their hardware system to a big existing and growing population of iPhone/iPod touch users.

You are right. I am sure that Sonos sees their official FREE iPhone/iTouch app as a way to encourage more sales of their hardware. Sonos didn't develop their app because there wasn't a Sonos app on the iPhone App Store. There were already THREE Sonos apps in the app store (a $20 one called ZoneMaster, a free lite version of ZoneMaster, and a $15 one called Zones). Yet Sonos created a FREE app that virtually duplicates their hardware controller (probably to the chagrin of the guys that developed the $15 and $20 apps).

And I am SURE Sonos didn’t introduce it to “cannibalize their hardware sales”. I am also sure that most Sonos controllers are sold with the purchase of a buyer’s first Sonos player. Likewise, I am sure that most SBCs are sold with a buyer’s first Duet, rather than as a separate purchase. There are ALREADY over 10 million iPhones out there, and who knows how many iPod Touches, and that number is escalating every week. Sonos sees the potential sales of lots of their players to all those iPhone/iPod Touch owners as being a lot bigger that the potential sales of ADDITIONAL Sonos controllers to their existing customers as being a compelling business model.

As the owner of one SB2, two SB3’s, a SB Boom, and an iPhone (the iPhone since the first week of July, 2007), and given the fact that I ALWAYS have the iPhone in my shirt pocket, I would be the first to encourage SD and Logitech to follow Sonos’ lead and develop a free iPhone app for the App Store that duplicates the functionality of the SBC, for both existing customers and for the same marketing reasons that led Sonos to create a free app (even though, as I said, there were already three Sonos apps in the App Store). With 10-20 million iPhone/iPod Touch users out there, I can’t be the only one that has both an iPhone or iPod Touch AND a Squeezebox.

autopilot
2008-10-31, 02:13
I'm beginning to think the SBR/SBC design was a mistake.

If you want IR baster buy an SBc and an SB3. I'm not a developer any more, but it seems to me the mistake was LUA - a language that very few people know or want to know. The whole idea was to bring a product to market that the third party development and enthusiast 'home brew' community could really go to town with. That clearly has not happened.

I still think its a great product though. But in terms of what it does for the money it costs, it's not anywhere near as good a value prospect as an iPod touch/iPhone. Audio out on the SBc will really add a lot of value, but IMO they really need to get the IR emitor working - then it will be unbeatable.

As for the Sonos remote, i too would want a dedicated remote. Using the iPod is a great move and i would use it if i had a Sonos and iPod/iPhone - but they are hardly innovating, loads of people have do this already (including Apple themselves). What surprised me at first was the fact that a company that already knows plenty of people will pay over the odds for thier products would hand out a completely free app. Not even $5? And what about existing controller sales? But i really dont think Sonos care about sales of the CP100 - What i suspect Sonos is actually doing here is a canny bit of market research, and what better way to do it? they are watching how this (solid and slick, but fairly run-of-the-mill app) goes down and what people want, following the progress of the SBc. My guess is that Sonos are developing a new remote that will really trump SD/Logitech (touch screen, maybe even with audio) which we will see in the not to distant future.

andynormancx
2008-10-31, 02:23
The Sonos app on an iPhone/iPod Touch is not perfect either. Not only does it have be connected to WiFi, but you have to "start" the Sonos application. What if the iPhone fails to start the app? What if you have to reset/reboot the iPhone? This is not not to say that the Controller won't face the same issue, but the potential for crashes in a multipurpose/multiapp device is a lot greater.
Well written iPhone apps start up in under a second. The iPhone reconnects to wifi faster than the Controller does. There is also no issue with the iPhone having to wake up from suspend, like the Controller has to when it has been idle for more than an hour.

At the same time the iPhone's battery life is better, while giving near instant wifi reconnection and app startup.

A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in most areas:

- it should be just as responsive
- the UI has the potential to be easier to use (the flick to scroll approach to navigating lists on the iPhone works better than the Controller's wheel and the iPhone can also have its handy "jump to the initial letter" navigation)
- text entry will be far, far faster
- it reconnects to the network faster
- it never has to wake from suspend
- its battery life is better

Where the iPhone will lose out is the lack of hardware buttons for volume and playback control. Picking up the Controller to adjust the volume or pause will be a fair bit quicker than the iPhone app, assuming the Controller isn't suspended of course.

I guess I should say that I own an iPhone 3G and a Controller. They are both great devices in their own ways. I could probably live without the Controller, I find it hard to see how I lived before the iPhone, sad eh ? ;)

mherger
2008-10-31, 03:05
> A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in
> most areas:

Sure. But this perfect app still has to be written ;-).

--

Michael

pippin
2008-10-31, 03:07
The first one is open source and free, the second one is commercial and shall cost more than 7,-€ (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=51849&highlight=iSqueeze)


Just to not disappoint someone:
The iPeng SKIN is free and open source.
the iPeng APP is definitely NOT open source (would violate Apple's license agreement) and probably not free.
But seriously, do you consider, say, Luke's 7€ as expensive given the fact that we are talking about operating hardware in the €x00 range? A controller sells at €200+ alone!

pippin
2008-10-31, 04:51
> A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in
> most areas:

Sure. But this perfect app still has to be written ;-).

Not for the areas he mentioned.
The Apple remote, for example, fulfills those.

egd
2008-10-31, 05:28
hah, interesting thread. I'll bet the folks at Logitech are scratching their heads over this one. It will be interesting to see whether and how they choose to respond - take too long deciding what to do or stick to the Controller only route and watch their market share diminish or maintain and potentially grow market share by quickly following suite. There's a lot to be said for first mover advantage but in this case the barriers to entry for Logitech are low...the only question is whether they're ready to cannibalize the Controller to stay in the game.

egd
2008-10-31, 05:41
Anyone want to take a bet that after the remote war has been decided the next big push is going to be value added content inclusion a la allmusic integration on your wireless handheld remote controller internet browser thingy...

HectorHughMunro
2008-10-31, 05:46
It's a clever move by Sonos. The main thing stopping me from using their kit was that I could get similar performance from the Duet for much less and the Duet handset suited me better. I already have a 'Touch' so the cost of switching for me is now pretty cheap. I don't intend to switch in the near term but If they establish a lead in any area that I'm interested in, it's a possibility.

The remote for Itunes is quick, enjoyable to use and does make other handsets feel 'clunky'.

The main problem for Logitech here might be that they would be trying to make a business out of just selling one unit for £100 rather than two for £240-£280.

mherger
2008-10-31, 05:52
> Anyone want to take a bet that after the remote war has been decided the
> next big push is going to be value added content inclusion a la allmusic
> integration on your wireless handheld remote controller internet browser
> thingy...

Win!

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=355264#post355264

;-)

--

Michael

ds2021
2008-10-31, 06:07
I really like the way their app handles multi-player control. In the demo video, the segment where there was a master volume plus independent volume control of multiple players impressed me.

I have a Controller but am very eager to see an iphone app; regardless of what strategy they take, I'd like the Slim team to start seeing control from all interfaces more from this simultaneous multi-unit perspective rather than consecutive single-unit control. Some of the independent plugin (hopefully app soon) developers are starting to think this way.

pippin
2008-10-31, 06:50
I really like the way their app handles multi-player control. In the demo video, the segment where there was a master volume plus independent volume control of multiple players impressed me.

I have a Controller but am very eager to see an iphone app; regardless of what strategy they take, I'd like the Slim team to start seeing control from all interfaces more from this simultaneous multi-unit perspective rather than consecutive single-unit control. Some of the independent plugin (hopefully app soon) developers are starting to think this way.

ds2021, do you read your PMs?

tamanaco
2008-10-31, 09:35
Well written iPhone apps start up in under a second. The iPhone reconnects to wifi faster than the Controller does. There is also no issue with the iPhone having to wake up from suspend, like the Controller has to when it has been idle for more than an hour.

At the same time the iPhone's battery life is better, while giving near instant wifi reconnection and app startup.

A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in most areas:

- it should be just as responsive
- the UI has the potential to be easier to use (the flick to scroll approach to navigating lists on the iPhone works better than the Controller's wheel and the iPhone can also have its handy "jump to the initial letter" navigation)
- text entry will be far, far faster
- it reconnects to the network faster
- it never has to wake from suspend
- its battery life is better

Where the iPhone will lose out is the lack of hardware buttons for volume and playback control. Picking up the Controller to adjust the volume or pause will be a fair bit quicker than the iPhone app, assuming the Controller isn't suspended of course.

I guess I should say that I own an iPhone 3G and a Controller. They are both great devices in their own ways. I could probably live without the Controller, I find it hard to see how I lived before the iPhone, sad eh ? ;)

I'm really taken by the devotion of iPhone users. This is a compliment. I guess my issue with the "iPhone" or any cell phone as a remote is that I get too many calls and emails. Even after hours. After I get home from work I put my phone on its charger and don't want to go near it for fear that I might end up doing some more work. Or with the current downsizing trend I don't want to get the news that I'm one of the lucky ones selected for an extended vacation. I want to be left alone while I'm at home listening to my SqueezeBox. In my case, I see the iTouch as a better option for the Sonos solution. I agree about the touchscreen interface of the iPhone/iTouch... it leaves a lot to be desired as I compare with a traditional remotes with physical buttons. Call me old fashion, but I want buttons in my remote. As I said before, for me listening to music is more of a "passive" activity than an "interactive" one. I want to hold a beer (an IPA preferably) on one hand and the remote on the other and without looking at the remote lower/raise the volume or skip to the next song. I am not one of those folks that can handle a touchscreen with one hand without looking at it. Having to use two hands to use my remote forces me to put down my beer. That's a no, no... after a long day. I have played with the Phillips Pronto and with the not too popular Harmony 1000. These had ergonomically efficient "physical" buttons for certain frequently used functions. I don't see these in the iPhone/iTouch. Not having at least a comfortable volume up/down button would drive me up a wall. Touchscreens are the trend, but I'm afraid that it also has its limitations as a remote. A combination of ergonomically placed buttons and a touchscreen would be best. Seeing all these iPhones I'm thinking I need to go to touchscreen school.

PRGeno
2008-10-31, 10:04
I'm really taken by the devotion of iPhone users. This is a compliment. I guess my issue with the "iPhone" or any cell phone as a remote is that I get too many calls and emails. Even after hours. After I get home from work I put my phone on its charger and don't want to go near it for fear that I might end up doing some more work. Or with the current downsizing trend I don't want to get the news that I'm one of the lucky ones selected for an extended vacation. I want to be left alone while I'm at home listening to my SqueezeBox. In my case, I see the iTouch as a better option for the Sonos solution. I agree about the touchscreen interface of the iPhone/iTouch... it leaves a lot to be desired as I compare with a traditional remotes with physical buttons. Call me old fashion, but I want buttons in my remote. As I said before, for me listening to music is more of a "passive" activity than an "interactive" one. I want to hold a beer (an IPA preferably) on one hand and the remote on the other and without looking at the remote lower/raise the volume or skip to the next song. I am not one of those folks that can handle a touchscreen with one hand without looking at it. Having to use two hands to use my remote forces me to put down my beer. That's a no, no... after a long day. I have played with the Phillips Pronto and with the not too popular Harmony 1000. These had ergonomically efficient "physical" buttons for certain frequently used functions. I don't see these in the iPhone/iTouch. Not having at least a comfortable volume up/down button would drive me up a wall. Touchscreens are the trend, but I'm afraid that it also has its limitations as a remote. A combination of ergonomically placed buttons and a touchscreen would be best. Seeing all these iPhones I'm thinking I need to go to touchscreen school.


I might not be as popular as you, but I have never gotten a phone call on my iPod Touch <grin>.

My iTouch lays around like the SB Controller would (use to), and my iPhone is usually on my person, so it can be used at a moment's notice as well (although there is that chance someone might call me on that one).

I'm not a fan of Apple's but this really is slick as a controller. I like physical buttons on my remotes too, but this is not a remote. It's a controller with a view into SC, without having to look at the front panel of my SBs, or even be in the same room. I'm quite sure touchscreen school would be a very short class for someone like yourself.

So if we can just get a native iPhone/Touch app, life would be truly grand. iPeng is nice, and pippen did a great job with it. But being a Safari app, it can never match the performance and smoothness of a well done native iApp.

There simply is no down side to this. Those who don't "get it", don't have to get it. Sonos, and their users, seem to have gotten it however.

ajkidle
2008-10-31, 11:19
I want to hold a beer (an IPA preferably) on one hand and the remote on the other and without looking at the remote lower/raise the volume or skip to the next song.

I know it risks going off topic, but I couldn't let the IPA thing go without commenting. Nothing better than a good IPA.

I'll throw my two cents in to say that an official (or native) iPod Touch app would be enough to get me to buy an iPod and give it a try. (I own the Duet bundle.) Obviously selling more iPods is not in Logitech's interest, but when I use a Touch to control the SBR, it'll be that much easier to rope friends & family into the cool world of Squeezebox. It'd be a huge selling point for the platform, methinks.

egd
2008-10-31, 12:23
Win!

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=355264#post355264

I like it, but for the 'c' word. Also, i think there'd be merit in having the information locally stored so that it's accessible without having to be online.

DaveWr
2008-10-31, 12:43
Not at all.

I would pay up to €10.00

regards

David

Mark Lanctot
2008-10-31, 12:57
Threads merged.

jaffacake
2008-10-31, 13:10
Obviously selling more iPods is not in Logitech's interest, but when I use a Touch to control the SBR, it'll be that much easier to rope friends & family into the cool world of Squeezebox

Is that because an iPod remote would be better? Cheaper? Or just cooler?

ds2021
2008-10-31, 14:02
In my experience, all of the above.

I think the conclusion that Sonos came to is that the app is unlikely to sell more remotes, but it is likely to sell more systems. It may also effectively drive down the cost of such systems, probably a sore point since the advent of the Duet. Also, the amount of internet press (i.e., blogs) I saw after the release of this app was worth a significant amount.

I still favour the Squeezebox for many reasons. However, at least some part of this is the suspicion that someone is going to release an app.

HectorHughMunro
2008-10-31, 15:10
Is that because an iPod remote would be better? Cheaper? Or just cooler?

It's faster and a whole lot more responsive. Very stable too. It feels like there's a lot more processing power. The touch sensitivity is better done than anything I've ever used before.

andynormancx
2008-11-01, 02:27
I am not one of those folks that can handle a touchscreen with one hand without looking at it. Having to use two hands to use my remote forces me to put down my beer. That's a no, no... after a long day. I have played with the Phillips Pronto and with the not too popular Harmony 1000.

Have you played with an iPhone or Touch though ? It sounds like you haven't.

The good news is that for mainly list based apps, like the Squeezebox apps are going to be, you only need one hand. Your beer can stay safely in your other hand.

The iPhone interface really is like no other remote, phone or mp3 player interface (though I haven't played with the HTC Touch stuff much, which I imagine has borrowed some bits). You really can hold it in one hand and navigate with your thumb.

You only need to resort to a second hand when typing text, clicking on links in webpages or if you want fine control of zooming in and out of web pages and images.

I take your point on the lack of physical buttons for things like volume and track skipping and I doubt the apps will be able to hijack the iPhones own volume buttons unfortunately.

I know I sound like a complete Apple fanboy, but I'm not. I use the best tool that I can find for the job in hand. For my servers that is Linux, for my .net development machines that is Windows, for my phone/pda/quick web browser/games machine/portable mp3 player/emailer that is the iPhone. When we have a native iPhone app I imagine it will also take over most of my Squeezebox controlling tasks too.

ajkidle
2008-11-01, 10:01
Is that because an iPod remote would be better? Cheaper? Or just cooler?

Probably all of the above. The real basis of my argument here is that the iPod already has mass market appeal and acceptance. They're everywhere and everyone uses them. The Squeezebox platform is very cool, but still niche. Bridging these two worlds can only help. If I can show friends or family the cool thing I can do using an iPod that they're already familiar with, it'll sell the Squeezebox platform that much easier. Sonos has obviously figured this out.

HectorHughMunro
2008-11-01, 12:48
Incidentally, I would be absolutely happy to pay a reasonable amount for a Slimdevices Iphone/Touch app. if that's what it takes to get it going.

rdb001
2008-11-01, 23:54
This thread is rather amusing to me. The iPhone applications are first and foremost directed to iPhone users. If you are an iPhone owner like me, there is nothing more satisfying than adding another killer application to your iPhone. The Sonos native application is just that -- a killer application for iPhone owners. It is fast, slick, and based on my casual use of it, really does nothing to my battery. It is comparable to the Apple Remote application, but not as good in some ways. The only significant downside that I have seen so far is that you need to relaunch it after switching to anything else. It certainly is much better than the $15 Zones application that I bought, and I liked that as well.

Now, for Sonos and others like them, the iPhone application gives all of the iPhone users a reason to either (1) buy Sonos or (2) increase support for the same if they already own a Sonos system (like me). I am eagerly awaiting the Slim Devices native iPhone application (or iPeng native -- love the Penguin). I have a Transporter and a Duet, and the iPeng plug-in and the Pronto 9600 remote with Barry's Prontoscript application, but somehow my life is not complete without the iPhone remote appplication. Sound crazy? It isn't for an iPhone owner. Comparing the iPhone remote to the Duet remote or any other remote isn't the issue. The only comparison that really matters in my opinion is with another iPhone application.

I have several good examples. I have been waiting for a killer iPhone stock trading application. So far the only one that I know about is dedicated to the Ameritrade brokerage. I don't have an account with them, but am considering jumping from a broker that I love because they don't have a comparable (or any) iPhone application. On the other hand, I own a Vudu box and it can be controlled via a wifi remote. While waiting for a native or other application to appear in the iTunes store, I set up my Pronto 9600 to control the box. It looked great but would not connect. When I got in touch with Vudu support, they informed me that a few days before my inquiry they began to block the wifi ports and would no longer "support" (open) the port for wifi control. I am so angry that I will likely take it back. Imagine if Logitech did that! Those guys deserve to go out of business. I am going to laugh when Sonos begins to add video to its system and puts Vudu out to pasture (someone will do it). Indeed, I am now exploring Apple TV simply because of the great iPhone remote application for that box.

Well, the point of this thread is that the iPhone is the must have gadget and those that have it (soon to be nearly everyone) want everything to work with it. That is the perspective. Does the iPhone replace all of my remotes (the Pronto, Duet controller, Sonos controller, etc)? It certainly could and would if cost were the issue, but I still keep the others around. The buttons come in handy at times for example.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-02, 06:53
Incidentally, I would be absolutely happy to pay a reasonable amount for a Slimdevices Iphone/Touch app. if that's what it takes to get it going.

Just in case you or anybody else missed it:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54479

Nearly ready.

egd
2008-11-02, 15:44
and don't forget the Pippin's iPeng that's given us the ability to control our Squeezeboxen from our iPod Touch and iPhones, first via web plugin and shortly via native app.

autopilot
2008-11-03, 02:42
Yep, a few competing apps could be a really good thing.

pippin
2008-11-03, 02:43
Yep, a few competing apps could be a really good thing.

Isn't a little competition always a nice thing ;-)

cakes
2008-11-04, 14:35
Very interesting thread indeed. But the most important question has not been answered yet. When will we see iPeng or iSqueeze in the appstore?

Luke Redpath
2008-11-04, 18:21
I'm hoping to submit iSqueeze by the weekend. Then it's in Apple hands although I've seen reports that approval times have come right down recently.

pippin
2008-11-05, 02:26
Very interesting thread indeed. But the most important question has not been answered yet. When will we see iPeng or iSqueeze in the appstore?

As for iPeng: Whenever Apple lets me :-)
Currently trying to get my company registered on the DevProgram (so far I'm only registered as an individual programmer). No idea how long that takes.

socistep
2008-11-05, 05:14
Have you played with an iPhone or Touch though ? It sounds like you haven't.

The good news is that for mainly list based apps, like the Squeezebox apps are going to be, you only need one hand. Your beer can stay safely in your other hand.

The iPhone interface really is like no other remote, phone or mp3 player interface (though I haven't played with the HTC Touch stuff much, which I imagine has borrowed some bits). You really can hold it in one hand and navigate with your thumb.

You only need to resort to a second hand when typing text, clicking on links in webpages or if you want fine control of zooming in and out of web pages and images.

I take your point on the lack of physical buttons for things like volume and track skipping and I doubt the apps will be able to hijack the iPhones own volume buttons unfortunately.

I know I sound like a complete Apple fanboy, but I'm not. I use the best tool that I can find for the job in hand. For my servers that is Linux, for my .net development machines that is Windows, for my phone/pda/quick web browser/games machine/portable mp3 player/emailer that is the iPhone. When we have a native iPhone app I imagine it will also take over most of my Squeezebox controlling tasks too.

I agree entirely with this, the iPhone is an excellent tool for the above and I look forward to having a native app for my Duet and hopefully a Boom. I think I would mainly use it for the Boom and use it to control in the bedroom and the Duet controller in the living room.

robroe
2008-11-07, 11:31
As for iPeng: Whenever Apple lets me :-)
Currently trying to get my company registered on the DevProgram (so far I'm only registered as an individual programmer). No idea how long that takes.

So a version 1.0 is pretty much ready then?? I look forward to seeing one or both up there :) It'll be interesting to compare the two.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but have you finalised what you think you will charge for these apps?

As a few people have said these could well be the first apps I actual pay for! TBH assuming that it is around the price banded around I would definitely grab iPeng without even checking its features because I appreciate all the work thats been put in on the web app, and because I know it'll rock!

pippin
2008-11-07, 16:59
I expect to be ready for AppEtore submission this weekend of early next week. Pricing will probably be $9.99
I'll post some screenshots over the weekend

Borgen
2008-11-11, 01:24
Can we get an update on what is happening with your applications?

Luke:
Are your application iSqueeze sent to Apple?
If so have your recived any date when it would come up in App Store?
If not, when will you send it to Apple?

Pippin:
Are your application iPeng sent to Apple?
If so have your recived any date when it would come up in App Store?
If not, when will you send it to Apple?

danco
2008-11-11, 01:42
And will either app allow one to stream music to the iTouch?

There is an internet radio program called CastCatcher that is meant to allow streaming, but the developer says that this is currently broken.

pippin
2008-11-11, 01:57
Pippin:
Are your application iPeng sent to Apple?

No, I wanted to have automatic server discovery in there and that took a little longer than expected. Release Candidate is going out to beta testers today.


If so have your recived any date when it would come up in App Store?

No, I haven't done this before.
But my other formal act holding me up (Comapny Registration) is done now.


If not, when will you send it to Apple?
Plan: tomorrow.
I will post a bigger update when it's submitted.

pippin
2008-11-11, 01:58
And will either app allow one to stream music to the iTouch?

There is an internet radio program called CastCatcher that is meant to allow streaming, but the developer says that this is currently broken.

Not for 1.0

Borgen
2008-11-11, 02:15
Plan: tomorrow.
I will post a bigger update when it's submitted.

Pippin, sound promising.....

Saw another post from you where you said that your would post some screen shots. Have you done that? I cant find any iPeng (native) screenshots in this forum

pippin
2008-11-11, 02:33
Pippin, sound promising.....

Saw another post from you where you said that your would post some screen shots. Have you done that? I cant find any iPeng (native) screenshots in this forum

Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again (they are a bit older but only details have changed):

autopilot
2008-11-11, 02:42
Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again (they are a bit older but only details have changed):

Wow, that look fantastic. I need a iTouch now!!!

Borgen
2008-11-11, 02:50
Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again (they are a bit older but only details have changed):

Pippin, this looks really greate!

Looking forward to the release.

Can you share some information on what functionality will be included in the first release? An perhapps some information on features that will be in coming version?

robroe
2008-11-11, 06:13
Yeah that looks fantastic!

Looks like castcatcher has been pulled from the Apple store at the mo http://gizmodo.com/5082341/apple-rejects-castcatcher-13-app-for-transferring-excessive-volumes-of-data

GlenL
2008-11-11, 07:19
Wow, that look fantastic. I need a iTouch now!!!

I'm in the market for an MP3 player and this thread is definitely pushing me towards an iPod Touch :-)

Luke Redpath
2008-11-11, 08:06
Not submitted to the store yet; decided at the last minute to bring forward shuffle/repeat functionality, so hopefully submitting this week.

thing-fish
2008-11-11, 08:14
What I would like to see in the future from SD/Logitech is SqueezePlay ported for use in Smartphones/iPhones, but as mobile "player" not necessarily as a home remote. (It can work as a remote if you sync it another player at home) With the current generation of 3G phones streaming media from the Internet in large metropolitan areas is a piece of cake. I currently use my Smartphone with PocketPlayer to stream internet radio stations either via AT&T 3G network or via WiFi.

I got the unlimited data plan for my Treo to give it a try. I enjoyed the heck out of it, it was amazing to listen to internet radio in the car and such.

However, I was deeply disappointed in SqueezeCenter's capability to serve music to the device. I always came in from a different IP address, so I was unable to set defaults for the stream. As such, it always came in as unlimited, choking the bandwidth immediately. I considered submitting a feature request that would let you specify the desired stream rate in the url (i.e. http://myserver:9000/stream.mp3?bitrate=96k) to surmount this, but in the end decided to end my unlimited data trial.

Nonetheless, I think that Logitech is missing a real opportunity if they don't release an iPhone app (not just a remote but also a player to listen to your collection in the car) AND tweak stream.mp3's functionality so that you can enjoy it more even without an app.

pippin
2008-11-11, 08:26
Pippin, this looks really greate!

Looking forward to the release.

Can you share some information on what functionality will be included in the first release? An perhapps some information on features that will be in coming version?

Tomorrow.
Just so much: More than Sonos...



Nonetheless, I think that Logitech is missing a real opportunity if they don't release an iPhone app (not just a remote but also a player to listen to your collection in the car) AND tweak stream.mp3's functionality so that you can enjoy it more even without an app.

iPeng will eventually have that (heck, even the skin has it), just not for the first version.

BTW, did you try the iPeng skin's playback? Since that DOWNLOADS the files to the iPhone it could actually work better than the stream.

mattybain
2008-11-11, 08:49
I'm in the market for an MP3 player and this thread is definitely pushing me towards an iPod Touch :-)

After having been on the beta test for iSqueeze all I can say is that when they are released you iphone/itouch owners are going to love them.

iSqueeze is so quick and so easy to use IMO it makes a mockery of the SC. I have always thought that whilst the SC's were good they weren't quite there, whilst the iphone apps are *definitely* there.

Great news about the shuffle facility on iSqueeze this was the only thing that I was really missing.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-11, 08:54
Full disclosure: somebody from Logitech has been in touch to discuss use of Logitech trademarks and images (none of which are used in iSqueeze in its present form) and the app's "final name" so (and I may be jumping the gun here), reading between the lines, iSqueeze might not be the name of the final release.

robroe
2008-11-11, 10:04
Full disclosure: somebody from Logitech has been in touch to discuss use of Logitech trademarks and images (none of which are used in iSqueeze in its present form) and the app's "final name" so (and I may be jumping the gun here), reading between the lines, iSqueeze might not be the name of the final release.

I hope this isn't them "sending in the heavies" as I don't think that fits with the ethos of what was Slim Devices, and I think that would rile the community somewhat.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-11, 10:09
I hope this isn't them "sending in the heavies" as I don't think that fits with the ethos of what was Slim Devices, and I think that would rile the community somewhat.

I wouldn't go that far; the message was friendly enough. I also understand the necessity for companies to protect trademarks.. I am awaiting a reply to my email.

peterw
2008-11-11, 10:30
I was deeply disappointed in SqueezeCenter's capability to serve music to the device. I always came in from a different IP address, so I was unable to set defaults for the stream. As such, it always came in as unlimited, choking the bandwidth immediately. I considered submitting a feature request that would let you specify the desired stream rate in the url (i.e. http://myserver:9000/stream.mp3?bitrate=96k) to surmount this, but in the end decided to end my unlimited data trial.

SettingsManager (see below) should let you save the bitrate limiting for a currently connected player as a "Default Web" setting, thereby applying it to any new IP addresses that connects for /stream.mp3 playback. That's not well tested, but it should work, and I welcome feedback & bug reports.

-Peter

lanierb
2008-11-11, 11:53
I hope this isn't them "sending in the heavies" as I don't think that fits with the ethos of what was Slim Devices, and I think that would rile the community somewhat.

You have to understand that trademark law REQUIRES you to defend your trademark, or lose it. If you let one person go, you lose the next court battle. So, logitech has no choice.

MrGadget
2008-11-11, 16:24
just a quick question. If you put the touch in landscape mode, what will the iPeng app look like?

HectorHughMunro
2008-11-11, 16:46
I'd like to add my voice to say that the screenshots look terrific. I'd be a buyer for this.

pippin
2008-11-11, 18:07
just a quick question. If you put the touch in landscape mode, what will the iPeng app look like?

The same laying on the side :-)
No CoverFlow yet.
I will try that later, but it's not completely clear how Apple reacts to that since it's undocumented...

EnochLight
2008-11-11, 19:26
Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again (they are a bit older but only details have changed):

Wow! So far I'm incredibly sold on this app and would happily pay the cash needed to get it on my iPhone. One question though: in version 1.0 can we search the library using the iPhone/iPod Touch onscreen keyboard?


Not submitted to the store yet; decided at the last minute to bring forward shuffle/repeat functionality, so hopefully submitting this week.

That website you prepared to present your app is very nice; thanks for that! I am very interested in your app as well! How long do you think it would be for library search to be implemented?

Being able to search one's library is sort of the deal breaker for me. And do both of these apps allow you to switch between Squeezecenter and Squeezenetwork?

Cheers!

peterw
2008-11-11, 20:14
Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again (they are a bit older but only details have changed):

What's the difference in the 3 players? JoergsBoom doesn't take up the full width, and all 3 players have different icons -- JoergsSqueezy with X and Play, JoergsBoom with only X, and EssSqueezy with ~ and Play... ???

What are the 3 dots just above the skip/play controls?

pippin
2008-11-11, 20:45
Wow! So far I'm incredibly sold on this app and would happily pay the cash needed to get it on my iPhone. One question though: in version 1.0 can we search the library using the iPhone/iPod Touch onscreen keyboard?

Yep.


And do both of these apps allow you to switch between Squeezecenter and Squeezenetwork?

SN doesn't have a CLI yet.
So I don't support it at all in 1.0. One of the early 1.x versions will at least have Client pullback from SN (the functionality is in, I will "only" need some UI for it which is what consumes 90% of the time...)

pippin
2008-11-11, 20:50
What's the difference in the 3 players? JoergsBoom doesn't take up the full width, and all 3 players have different icons -- JoergsSqueezy with X and Play, JoergsBoom with only X, and EssSqueezy with ~ and Play... ???

JoergsBoom is synced to JoergsSqueezy. Synced Players are grouped below the master, the indent is to show that. They also don't have a separate "PLAY/PAUSE" button since that has no function for a synced player.
The wave Icon is for syncing, the wave with "x" for unsyncing.


What are the 3 dots just above the skip/play controls?
Page control. It shows the NowPlaying subpage you are on. Like on the iPhone home screen. You can scroll left and right to switch between the main screen (Artwork + Overlay for Prograss Bar, Shuffle, Repeat, TrackStat Ratings - if you've got TrackStat - Love/Ban and the like), left of that is Players, to the right is Playlist.

What you see on these screen shots is all just NowPlaying.

danco
2008-11-12, 00:30
Yeah that looks fantastic!

Looks like castcatcher has been pulled from the Apple store at the mo http://gizmodo.com/5082341/apple-rejects-castcatcher-13-app-for-transferring-excessive-volumes-of-data

CastCatcher 1.2 is still available on the store, though.

danco
2008-11-12, 02:59
BTW, did you try the iPeng skin's playback? Since that DOWNLOADS the files to the iPhone it could actually work better than the stream.

I takeit that the downloaded files get deleted after use. Otherwise one might just as well transfer via iTunes and listen that way.

Streaming may suit me better than downloading, as the things I mostly listen to are radio features and music programmes, so running anywhere from 15 to 60 Mb.

Currently the problem with stream.mp3 on an iTouch/iPhone is navigation of music. Not a huge issue for me, as I plan to listen at home in a room where I don't have Squeezebox, so could always go to the computer to start playing. But playing and navigating on the iTouch would be best.

robroe
2008-11-12, 03:00
I wouldn't go that far; the message was friendly enough. I also understand the necessity for companies to protect trademarks.. I am awaiting a reply to my email.

Glad to hear it :) I appreciate companies have to protect their trademarks etc, I was just fearful that they were going to be overzealous.

Can someone protect something like 'Squeeze' surely that is just a word? Maybe its different because the product is blatantly connected to the SqueezeServer world?

pippin
2008-11-12, 03:03
I takeit that the downloaded files get deleted after use. Otherwise one might just as well transfer via iTunes and listen that way.

Streaming may suit me better than downloading, as the things I mostly listen to are radio features and music programmes, so running anywhere from 15 to 60 Mb.

Currently the problem with stream.mp3 on an iTouch/iPhone is navigation of music. Not a huge issue for me, as I plan to listen at home in a room where I don't have Squeezebox, so could always go to the computer to start playing. But playing and navigating on the iTouch would be best.

No, it doesn't download the whole file.
But it uses QuickTime on iPhone, which will download parts of the file in chunks of 5MB and buffer it. Plenty of time for your connection to come back on outagages.

Navigation with the skin is only basic, but the QT screen coming up allows you to navigate within the track.

Borgen
2008-11-12, 03:59
Tomorrow.
Just so much: More than Sonos...


So the iPeng are leaving your "hands" and are sent to Apple today?

jaffacake
2008-11-12, 07:30
Tomorrow.
Just so much: More than Sonos...



Can't wait for this one...what version of SqueezeCenter will I need?

pippin
2008-11-12, 09:25
So the iPeng are leaving your "hands" and are sent to Apple today?

No, unfortunately not. I had some left over UI stuff to do that took longer than expected (boring settings menu) plus adapt iPeng to the latest changes on the internet radios that come with SC7.3.

However, I DID send out what is the release candidate to the beta testers and if there's nothing unexpected in there it will probably go out tomorrow.

To keep you tesed up a bit, I'll post a daily screenshot :-) Let's start with something simple: Albums.


Can't wait for this one...what version of SqueezeCenter will I need?

7
Didn't really test it on versions before 7.2 but I would expect it to run on 7.0+, Alarm (which is what would need 7.2) is not yet in.

munkivelli
2008-11-12, 09:28
Will iPeng support music services like Rhapsody?

pippin
2008-11-12, 09:39
Will iPeng support music services like Rhapsody?

Yes.
But no playback on the device, yet, you know that, right? (Will probably be an issue for a while for a DRMed service like Rhapsody) But they do have their own app for that, don't they?

Luke Redpath
2008-11-12, 09:56
pippin, how well does iPeng handle large libraries? I found the SQL queries run when retrieving albums with artist info via the CLI to be quite inefficient and was seeing very long response times. I'm also interested in if you decided to go down the polling route or set up a permanent connection to the CLI and use notifications/subscriptions.

pippin
2008-11-12, 10:01
pippin, how well does iPeng handle large libraries? I found the SQL queries run when retrieving albums with artist info to be quite inefficient and was seeing very long response times.

Yes, that's a known issue. There's an ages old bug about this.
I cache the albums list (as you do, too, as far as I can see), so that is not THAT much of an issue.
BTW, what's a "large" library? I don't have one myself, I only have 700 Albums or so.
From what I heard during the beta, the worst thing - performance wise - is browsing Genres, if you have a long list of Genres or many Artists/Albums within a Genre this is slow. Same on the SBC.
Hopefully, NewSchema will do away with that.

pippin
2008-11-12, 10:04
pippin, how well does iPeng handle large libraries? I found the SQL queries run when retrieving albums with artist info via the CLI to be quite inefficient and was seeing very long response times. I'm also interested in if you decided to go down the polling route or set up a permanent connection to the CLI and use notifications/subscriptions.

Question in return: Were you able to use the output you get from SC for the alphabet index?

Luke Redpath
2008-11-12, 10:06
Yes, that's a known issue. There's an ages old bug about this.
I cache the albums list (as you do, too, as far as I can see), so that is not THAT much of an issue.
BTW, what's a "large" library? I don't have one myself, I only have 700 Albums or so.
From what I heard during the beta, the worst thing - performance wise - is browsing Genres, if you have a long list of Genres or many Artists/Albums within a Genre this is slow. Same on the SBC.
Hopefully, NewSchema will do away with that.

I haven't bothered with genre browsing yet as it didn't seem like a priority. I only have around 700 albums or so too and it takes about 10 seconds to sync but one of my beta testers had over 3000 albums.

pippin
2008-11-12, 10:06
I'm also interested in if you decided to go down the polling route or set up a permanent connection to the CLI and use notifications/subscriptions.

Only saw that now.
Polling. Had tons of that code (logic) lying around from the skin. Will probably change that for a later version. Gives a bit of a delay for some things (state changes in the player) but is irrelevant for the "large scale" stuff, I believe.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-12, 10:07
Question in return: Were you able to use the output you get from SC for the alphabet index?

Sort of; I sort and partition the output but that currently causes anything starting with "The..." to be listed under T.

pippin
2008-11-12, 10:07
I haven't bothered with genre browsing yet as it didn't seem like a priority. I only have around 700 albums or so too and it takes about 10 seconds to sync but one of my beta testers had over 3000 albums.

And? How long does that take?

pippin
2008-11-12, 10:08
Sort of; I sort and partition the output but that currently causes anything starting with "The..." to be listed under T.

pref ignoredarticles.
I do the same.
How about switching to PM, a lot of people are reading this chat.

jaffacake
2008-11-12, 10:08
Didn't really test it on versions before 7.2 but I would expect it to run on 7.0+, Alarm (which is what would need 7.2) is not yet in.

That's fine, I can go 7.2.

Thanks.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-12, 10:09
Only saw that now.
Polling. Had tons of that code (logic) lying around from the skin. Will probably change that for a later version. Gives a bit of a delay for some things (state changes in the player) but is irrelevant for the "large scale" stuff, I believe.

I started off with the polling approach but found polling the server for status updates impacted on performance too much so I've moved over to a notification-based approach, maintaining as much state as possible in the domain model of the app, only retrieving status updates where necessary.

There is something quite cool about changing the volume (using the normal SqueezeBox remote) and seeing the volume slider update in realtime. :)

Luke Redpath
2008-11-12, 10:12
I can also confirm that iSqueeze will no longer be called iSqueeze on its final release. I'm still yet to decide on a name although I quite like the name "Concertina". :)

jaffacake
2008-11-12, 11:12
I can also confirm that iSqueeze will no longer be called iSqueeze on its final release. I'm still yet to decide on a name although I quite like the name "Concertina". :)

I thought of a name, you have PM :)

munkivelli
2008-11-12, 12:58
Yes.
But no playback on the device, yet, you know that, right? (Will probably be an issue for a while for a DRMed service like Rhapsody) But they do have their own app for that, don't they?

Oh, yeah. That's all I need is to be able to use the app to control squeezecenter to play songs on my sb boom from either my rhapsody library and do artist search to find music and play it from rhapsody. The web app is great and has all that functionality already. It will be much cooler to have it in a native app though. There actually isn't currently any way that I know of to stream rhapsody tracks straight to an iPhone or itouch. I imagine apple would shoot down any app that attempted to do it.

mherger
2008-11-13, 00:37
> I started off with the polling approach but found polling the server

Are you using raw CLI (socket on 9090) or JSON/RPC over http?

--

Michael

iainhar@aol.com
2008-11-13, 01:35
Pippin



this may sound like a daft question, but can you confirm.....

The art work showing on the album page, is this drawn from I Tunes? I have not been able to tie my artwork to my albums in SC. Obviously though they show up on the I Touch when accessing albums transferred from I Tunes.




Thanks




Iain.


-----Original Message-----
From: pippin <pippin.3irtjz1226507401 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:25
Subject: Re: [slim] Game On: Sonos has an iPhone app








Borgen;359160 Wrote:
> So the iPeng are leaving your "hands" and are sent to Apple today?

No, unfortunately not. I had some left over UI stuff to do that took
longer than expected (boring settings menu) plus adapt iPeng to the
latest changes on the internet radios that come with SC7.3.

However, I DID send out what is the release candidate to the beta
testers and if there's nothing unexpected in there it will probably go
out tomorrow.

To keep you tesed up a bit, I'll post a daily screenshot :-) Let's
start with something simple: Albums.

jaffacake;359196 Wrote:
> Can't wait for this one...what version of SqueezeCenter will I need?

7
Didn't really test it on versions before 7.2 but I would expect it to
run on 7.0+, Alarm (which is what would need 7.2) is not yet in.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: 081112_albums.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6221|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

--
pippin

---
see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54336

pippin
2008-11-13, 01:36
I promised one every day, so here's today's

pippin
2008-11-13, 01:58
Pippin
this may sound like a daft question, but can you confirm.....

The art work showing on the album page, is this drawn from I Tunes? I have not been able to tie my artwork to my albums in SC. Obviously though they show up on the I Touch when accessing albums transferred from I Tunes.


This depends on your SqueezeCenter settings. The iPhone has no way to access iTunes directly (through this) and it might be quite difficult to match an album in SC with one on iTunes, especially if they are probably on different machines.

So no, iPeng will show what is in SC, you may want to experiment with SC'S iTunes import settings on this, 7.3 is said to become better in this respect than previous versions.

I use a "folder.jpg" in every album folder which works fine for ~80% of my database.

Nonreality
2008-11-13, 02:34
This depends on your SqueezeCenter settings. The iPhone has no way to access iTunes directly (through this) and it might be quite difficult to match an album in SC with one on iTunes, especially if they are probably on different machines.

So no, iPeng will show what is in SC, you may want to experiment with SC'S iTunes import settings on this, 7.3 is said to become better in this respect than previous versions.

I use a "folder.jpg" in every album folder which works fine for ~80% of my database.
Pippin, I've talked my son into an touch and he's going to let me use it for your program. Just wanted to confirm that it's compatable with the newest itouch's out there? I really looking forward to trying it. Does it depend on a folder.jpg or can it use embedded art also. Most mine are both. But I know I'm missing some folder.jpg's.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-13, 02:50
> I started off with the polling approach but found polling the server

Are you using raw CLI (socket on 9090) or JSON/RPC over http?

--

Michael

JSON/RPC for commands (and originally for polling), sockets for async notifications.

pippin
2008-11-13, 02:52
Pippin, I've talked my son into an touch and he's going to let me use it for your program. Just wanted to confirm that it's compatable with the newest itouch's out there? I really looking forward to trying it. Does it depend on a folder.jpg or can it use embedded art also. Most mine are both. But I know I'm missing some folder.jpg's.

I don't know the latest touches but I can't imagine they don't work, iPhone is a pretty consistent platform so far and it works the same on my Mk.1 iPod touches as well as on my iPhone 3G. So don't expect any quirks there.

Regarding cover art: You should see the same as through the Web I/F. SC DOES import embedded artwork, however I find it sometimes has trouble if the artwork is only embedded in one of the tracks of an album, that's why I use folder.jpg, it saves quite a bit of memory.
Oh... And you should move to BIG artwork now you really notice the quality difference of a 320x320 over, say, the 160x160 artworks that LastFM delivers...

Hasn't been an issue for the controller, but requirements grow with capabilities :-)

mherger
2008-11-13, 03:44
> JSON/RPC for commands (and originally for polling), sockets for async
> notifications.

Interesting. Please note that we didn't open port 9090 on the Windows firewall up to SC 7.2. We now do. But keep this in mind in case users experience issues.

--

Michael

Luke Redpath
2008-11-13, 06:39
Thanks for the heads-up.

Nonreality
2008-11-13, 14:58
I don't know the latest touches but I can't imagine they don't work, iPhone is a pretty consistent platform so far and it works the same on my Mk.1 iPod touches as well as on my iPhone 3G. So don't expect any quirks there.

Regarding cover art: You should see the same as through the Web I/F. SC DOES import embedded artwork, however I find it sometimes has trouble if the artwork is only embedded in one of the tracks of an album, that's why I use folder.jpg, it saves quite a bit of memory.
Oh... And you should move to BIG artwork now you really notice the quality difference of a 320x320 over, say, the 160x160 artworks that LastFM delivers...

Hasn't been an issue for the controller, but requirements grow with capabilities :-)

Thank you, I really look forward to trying it. I imbed all the track and also use folder.jpg on most albums. A bit overkill but it tends to cover all bases. :) Now I just have to convince him to leave it home tomorrow and not take it to school. I have the day off. :)

EnochLight
2008-11-13, 20:19
I can also confirm that iSqueeze will no longer be called iSqueeze on its final release. I'm still yet to decide on a name although I quite like the name "Concertina". :)

That's a shame - I'm guessing Logitech had a problem with the original name? Anyway, not feeling "Concertina" - got any other possible names? Something that may complement the actual Squeezebox/Center line without getting Logitech in a tizzy?

autopilot
2008-11-14, 02:48
Anyway, not feeling "Concertina" - got any other possible names? Something that may complement the actual Squeezebox/Center line without getting Logitech in a tizzy?

What about 'iCon'?

Borgen
2008-11-14, 04:06
I promised one every day, so here's today's
Pippin!

Really nice pictures! Wounder what the picture will reveal today...


How are actual the release progressing?

EnochLight
2008-11-14, 05:42
What about 'iCon'?

Hmmm - better! Or perhaps iConcert?

pippin
2008-11-14, 12:28
OK, a little late with today's image, so I'll do a few :-)
I DID plan top only give you the splash screen, yet...

Actually I found out a few annoying things today:

#1 I can design slick Apps, I can even make them look cool, but I obviously CANNOT design icons, So if anybody has a cool suggestion out there :-)

#2 is even worse: iPeng is ready for the App store, It's done, it has all the help stuff set up, I even have marketing blabla, but I cannot get it compiled for the AppStore? Why? My company name has an "!" in it and the code signing doesn't eat that. I am not allowed to change the registered entity myself so now I've got Apple headquarters tying to sort out what to do :-(
Not kidding.
Note to self - only ever use ASCII characters. Wait a moment, that IS an ASCII character... hm... A-Z?

But ok, here's the pictures. I admit that the Squwhatever app has some cooler looks to it but ours doesn't crash on startup :-)

danco
2008-11-14, 12:37
What about 'iCon'?

The later suggestion of iConcert might be OK.

But call something iCon, and many people won't buy it, because in case of trouble, theyexpect to be told "Well, I said it was a con!!"

EnochLight
2008-11-14, 13:31
Yep.

SN doesn't have a CLI yet.
So I don't support it at all in 1.0. One of the early 1.x versions will at least have Client pullback from SN (the functionality is in, I will "only" need some UI for it which is what consumes 90% of the time...)

Thanks Pippin. That said, can you at least navigate/control Rhaposody and Pandora through iPeng while connected to SqueezeCenter?


..call something iCon, and many people won't buy it, because in case of trouble, theyexpect to be told "Well, I said it was a con!!"

HAAAAA!!! Good one...

pippin
2008-11-14, 13:46
Thanks Pippin. That said, can you at least navigate/control Rhaposody and Pandora through iPeng while connected to SqueezeCenter?


Yes, yes, yes, of course.
Can't show you Rhapsody (don't have it here), but Last.fm for example looks like the attached...

Umm my telephone bill starts to fill up with overseas calls, hope Apple fixes this issue soon, now that I even have a US IRS id ;-)

autopilot
2008-11-14, 14:06
The later suggestion of iConcert might be OK.

But call something iCon, and many people won't buy it, because in case of trouble, theyexpect to be told "Well, I said it was a con!!"

lol, Not bad :P

If it was my app i would call it Squeezer, don't like the whole "i" thing myself, always seems a bit cheap to me. Sorry guys.

pippin
2008-11-14, 20:36
OK, now I'm hoping on Apple...
iPeng is with them, now it's in their hands.
My beta testers liked it, though :-)

Nonreality
2008-11-15, 01:27
OK, now I'm hoping on Apple...
iPeng is with them, now it's in their hands.
My beta testers liked it, though :-)

So I'm confused, nothing odd about that though. :) Is this a new version that you have submitted? Are there any details about it? I've used the current one all day and it's really nice Pippen. I'm so impressed. I'm also impressed with the touch. It's a lot of fun and we keep fighting over using it to play around. :) Still learning how to use it and Ipeng. Haven't figured out musicip yet, it doesn't seem to do anything, but I need to read up on it. When we hit the volume nothing changes but it does respond. If we increase volume it shows a -6173 and more. Kind of weird. Last night it did control the volume but today it doesn't change it just shows strange figures like that real quick. Other than those things it has worked like a champ. I'm using xp with 7.2.1 Ipeng 0.53

danny041
2008-11-15, 04:06
I am so looking forward to test this as well since i really liked the UI in ipengs web-app but seldom used it due to the slow response rate which comes naturally to a web-app. Please announce when you get the approval at as many places as possible so it is not getting missed out!

What price will it go for?

pippin
2008-11-15, 05:40
So I'm confused, nothing odd about that though. :) Is this a new version that you have submitted? Are there any details about it?
...
Other than those things it has worked like a champ. I'm using xp with 7.2.1 Ipeng 0.53

It's a native app as opposed to the 0.5.3 which is a web skin.
Most info so far is in this thread, I'll do a "real" announcement when I get the approval from Apple.
Overall: The skin has a tremendous amount of functionality, much more than any of the available native apps (and even more than the controller), but it's sloooow.
The app, however, is FAST but it still misses support for a lot of plugins and is generally not as complete as the skin.


I am so looking forward to test this as well since i really liked the UI in ipengs web-app but seldom used it due to the slow response rate which comes naturally to a web-app. Please announce when you get the approval at as many places as possible so it is not getting missed out!

What price will it go for?

I'll open a new thread and keep this one updated.
Price will be US$9.99, €7,99

danco
2008-11-15, 06:33
Overall: The skin has a tremendous amount of functionality, much more than any of the available native apps (and even more than the controller), but it's sloooow.


Including being able to select AND PLAY musicon the iTouch/iPhone, which the native app can't as yet, I gather.

lanierb
2008-11-15, 10:49
OK, now I'm hoping on Apple...
iPeng is with them, now it's in their hands.
My beta testers liked it, though :-)

Way to go pippin! You've made huge contributions to the community so I feel like we owe you: I'm definitely trying yours first. Looking forward to it!

HectorHughMunro
2008-11-15, 15:18
The price is fine IMO. Less than two Starbucks or a pint of beer in Paris (as I recently found to my cost).

EnochLight
2008-11-15, 15:21
The price is fine IMO.

I'll agree if it performs admirably better than Squidgy, which, judging from Pippin's posts that sounds like it may be the case.

pippin
2008-11-15, 16:02
OK, here's today's photo (at least for the UK and the US, here in Germany the day's just over...)

Let's call this "by popular demand", now what do we see here...?

EnochLight
2008-11-15, 19:15
OK, here's today's photo (at least for the UK and the US, here in Germany the day's just over...)

Let's call this "by popular demand", now what do we see here...?

Heheh, very cool. I am assuming this is for Last.fm? When you select the "heart" or "reject" buttons, does a window pop up saying that other songs will be played (or not played) according to your selection?

Also, is this track paused or playing? It appears to be paused as the playback icon is indicated... as opposed to a pause icon if it were playing? Just curious...

.

pippin
2008-11-16, 02:49
almost.
It's love and ban for Last.fm.
You are correct about PLAY, the song is paused, would show a pause icon while playing

EnochLight
2008-11-16, 08:17
almost.
It's love and ban for Last.fm.

When you select the "love" or "ban" buttons, does a window pop up saying that other songs will be played (or not played) according to your selection? Is one prompted at all?

pippin
2008-11-16, 08:32
When you select the "love" or "ban" buttons, does a window pop up saying that other songs will be played (or not played) according to your selection? Is one prompted at all?

No. In dialog boxes per user action Squidgy clearly beats iPeng...

Steve Agnew
2008-11-16, 11:45
Hi Pippin/Luke,

Does iPeng/iNewNameGoesHere cope with having multiple locations each with a different network setup and different music library? Say a "Home" location and an "Office" location that you could switch between easily? Now there's a good use for GPS!

Regards, Steve Agnew.

pippin
2008-11-16, 12:12
Hi Pippin/Luke,

Does iPeng/iNewNameGoesHere cope with having multiple locations each with a different network setup and different music library? Say a "Home" location and an "Office" location that you could switch between easily? Now there's a good use for GPS!

Regards, Steve Agnew.

What would that do, then?
For iPeng, I think the server detection would cope with most of this, for everything else: try, comment and I'll see what we can do... :-)

Steve Agnew
2008-11-16, 13:47
Sorry I should have explained this a bit more clearly.

If your native iPhone App contains a copy of the information in your SC database, and if you had multiple locations (Home/Work/Boat) which had different SC settings and different music libraries and which you might want to control with your iPhone, then wouldn't you need some easy way to say "I'm Home so use that database", or "I'm at the office, use the Office database".

Regards, Steve Agnew.

pippin
2008-11-16, 13:54
yes, I got that.
But iPeng does not have a lengthy sync process at startup. It will re-read the database but that's in the background. Will slow down responsiveness for a minute or so but will work right away.

mherger
2008-11-17, 01:01
> Does iPeng/iNewNameGoesHere cope with having multiple locations each
> with a different network setup and different music library?

I take my iPod from home to office and back every day. iPeng is handling
this fine.

Michael

Luke Redpath
2008-11-17, 15:18
Small anouncement, the final name of iSqueeze is............Squeemote.

Fixing a few bugs and putting the last bits of polish on the first release tonight. Might even get it submitted tonight too, tomorrow at the latest.

EnochLight
2008-11-17, 18:32
Small anouncement, the final name of iSqueeze is............Squeemote.

Heheh - I like. Can't wait to try it.

Cheers!

Nonreality
2008-11-18, 03:18
Small anouncement, the final name of iSqueeze is............Squeemote.

Fixing a few bugs and putting the last bits of polish on the first release tonight. Might even get it submitted tonight too, tomorrow at the latest.

I like the name but are there any details about it? Any kind of try before you buy type of thing?

danco
2008-11-18, 04:28
I like the name but are there any details about it? Any kind of try before you buy type of thing?

One of the issues with AppStore, unlike software for one's main computer, is that there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for free trial download with later purchase of a license.

I have heard (but only one or two reports) that Apple is quite good on issuing refunds if one decides the software is not quite what one wants.

Luke Redpath
2008-11-18, 06:31
I like the name but are there any details about it? Any kind of try before you buy type of thing?

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54479&highlight=isqueeze

ds2021
2008-11-18, 07:12
One of the issues with AppStore, unlike software for one's main computer, is that there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for free trial download with later purchase of a license.

The iPeng plugin has been around for quite a while and has allowed for refinement of the software in the context of a web interface. The difficulty with a web interface of course is that it is inherently slow; the iPeng native app should show the feature-set (minus streaming) which made the iPeng plugin a winner, but with the speed inherent to an application.

If you have not had a chance to check out the plugin, you should (it's free). I have been a huge fan since its release, and the implementation of simultaneous multi-player control makes it - for me - the hands-down winner of any of the remote options.

danco
2008-11-18, 08:09
I'm still just playing with a fairly new iTouch. Yes I do have the iPeng plugin. I am likely to stick with it rather than a native app until native apps support streaming.

And, yes, the iPeng plugin probably acts as a good trial for the native app. My point about trials not being available was meant as a general one, but also in reference to nonreality's question about Squeemote.

Borgen
2008-11-19, 01:14
OK, now I'm hoping on Apple...
iPeng is with them, now it's in their hands.
My beta testers liked it, though :-)

Hello Pippin,

Any news from Apple?

Searching the AppStore every day but still no sign of iPeng

Sike
2008-11-19, 02:26
Me too!

Can't wait!!

Is there going to be a light version for testing? (Just out of interest, I'm gonna buy yours anyway)

pippin
2008-11-19, 09:52
Hello Pippin,

Any news from Apple?

Searching the AppStore every day but still no sign of iPeng

Yes, but unfortunately no good ones.
They experienced a crash on startup that I cannot reproduce. I think they ran it against an un-initialized server (the only situation under which I could provoke a crash on startup; and also their comment sounded like that), now I added a ton of parameter checking and a lengthy description on how to setup the server and resubmitted.

Let's see. The really annoying thing is that this is really quite stable, as well as what I see myself as from what my beta testers tell me. Have seen much worse apps on the app store wrt that.

So, sorry for the bad news, hopefully, this gets sorted out soon.

Sike
2008-11-19, 10:24
Yes, but unfortunately no good ones.
They experienced a crash on startup that I cannot reproduce.

Can you not sell it to them as a flashlight app? They like those :)

pippin
2008-11-19, 15:08
Can you not sell it to them as a flashlight app? They like those :)

Yea. I know that chart.
I should add a feature that it flashes whenever there's a crash :)

.:.impossible
2008-11-19, 16:20
Seriously. Finally an app that I am willing to pay for and it can't come out soon enough!

Of course, I've bought a few apps here and there, but I rarely use them.

Nonreality
2008-11-21, 01:37
Yes, but unfortunately no good ones.
They experienced a crash on startup that I cannot reproduce. I think they ran it against an un-initialized server (the only situation under which I could provoke a crash on startup; and also their comment sounded like that), now I added a ton of parameter checking and a lengthy description on how to setup the server and resubmitted.

Let's see. The really annoying thing is that this is really quite stable, as well as what I see myself as from what my beta testers tell me. Have seen much worse apps on the app store wrt that.

So, sorry for the bad news, hopefully, this gets sorted out soon.

I hope they see the light soon. I'm excited to try it as soon as it comes out so don't worry, we are behind you my friend. I may try out one of the others but your's is the one I'm excited about. :)

DaveWr
2008-11-21, 03:17
Hi Pippin,

Same as Nonreality, I can't wait to buy. The commitment to the iPeng skin has been superb. This could really make the difference for my family.

Hope it's soon

Dave

adhir
2008-11-21, 06:08
You get the app submitted?

Do you plan on releasing any screenshots etc to aid ppl in deciding
between yours and Squidgy?

Thanks

On Nov 17, 2008, at 5:18 PM, Luke Redpath wrote:

>
> Small anouncement, the final name of iSqueeze is............Squeemote.
>
> Fixing a few bugs and putting the last bits of polish on the first
> release tonight. Might even get it submitted tonight too, tomorrow at
> the latest.
>
>
> --
> Luke Redpath
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Luke Redpath's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=859
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54336
>
>

Luke Redpath
2008-11-21, 12:12
I posted some screenshots the other week. Here they are in case you missed them:

http://gallery.me.com/lukeredpath#100007&bgcolor=black&view=grid

Luke Redpath
2008-11-23, 13:04
Squeemote has now been submitted to the app store. I'm away from Monday to Thursday but I don't expect it to be available until the end of the week at least. Price is £4.99/$7.99.

If it does get released before Thursday, obviously I wont be around to start a thread on here but feel free to email me with any issues you have before then.

DeVerm
2008-11-23, 14:03
Of course, I've bought a few apps here and there, but I rarely use them.

I actually like the ShoppingList app. People look a bit confused when they see me using it in the supermarket though... but they looked confused when they saw me without it too so it's no problem ;-) (I'm twice as tall as they are here in Panama).

cheers,
Nick.

Borgen
2008-11-24, 04:43
now I added a ton of parameter checking and a lengthy description on how to setup the server and resubmitted.

Hello Pippin,

Any update on your resubmitted version?

tamanaco
2008-11-24, 11:01
Not a fan... but here is a short review and some users' comments on the $300 Sonos with the iPhone WiFi app.

http://gizmodo.com/5097223/dealzmodo-review-the-300-sonos-rig

pippin
2008-11-25, 01:37
Now I can play, too
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=363328