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GavinLongmuir
2008-10-15, 06:16
While I'm unlike to run out of private address space in my home network - my SqueezeBox 3 is one of the few non-IPv6 embedded devices that I can see myself using well into the future. So...

I image it would be easy to add IPv6 support to SqueezeCenter (at least under various unix platforms), but does anybody have any plans to start this implementation and of course it's the firmware that really needs to have additional stack support.

Is anyone from Logitech able to spill some beans???

POLL: Should IPv6 be supported?

Gavin

andyg
2008-10-15, 06:18
IPv6 is not going to happen in firmware. You will never run out of IPv4 addresses on your LAN. Try 10.x.x.x.

CatBus
2008-10-15, 08:22
IMO IPv6 suffers from "nobody wants to be the first penguin off the iceberg" syndrome. Everyone's just peering over the precipice waiting for everyone else to go first.

I have a hard enough time entering a 63-random-character WPA key into my devices. Imagine entering an IPv6 SqueezeCenter address.

iPhone
2008-10-15, 10:33
While I'm unlike to run out of private address space in my home network - my SqueezeBox 3 is one of the few non-IPv6 embedded devices that I can see myself using well into the future. So...

I image it would be easy to add IPv6 support to SqueezeCenter (at least under various unix platforms), but does anybody have any plans to start this implementation and of course it's the firmware that really needs to have additional stack support.

Is anyone from Logitech able to spill some beans???

POLL: Should IPv6 be supported?

Gavin

At this time, can't ever image the need for it. But then again, Microsoft Bill never saw the need for more then 68K or a kernal with a date beyond 1999.

maggior
2008-10-15, 12:01
I voted "don't care". At my job, I'm on a team that is adding IPv6 capability to a VIOP gateway. The compelling reason is to make the IT depts. of larger companies happy. Some locations (I believe the US govt. is one of them) will not allow new equipment into their data center that isn't IPv6 capable. If it weren't for this madate, we wouldn't be doing it.

NAT technology has made the problem that IPv6 solves much less urgent and some would argue makes IPv6 unncessary. However, NAT breaks with the general philosophy of all networked devices being directly addressable over the Internet. A day is invisioned where you will want to be able to address your toaster, coffee maker, and refridgerator from your hotel room over the Internet.

Since IPv6 is rolled out with dual protocol stacks for backwards compatability with IPv4 devices, I don't think we have to worry about our SB devices anytime soon.

Here are some interesting articles on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipv6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_deployment

And why not make the jump to IPv9 because China's gotta be different! :-) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv9#Version_history

Themis
2008-10-15, 12:25
I voted "Yes", although I don't care whether this change happens in SB3 or on the ...SB5 version. Anyway, some day soon, IPV4 compatibility will become marginal (as soon as ISPs will decide to go IPV6, like their backbones did already) ;)

syburgh
2008-10-15, 19:04
I believe these wireless modules have a more finite life than other semiconductors (and yes, could always use wired).

Would be surprised if most users were still reliant on the SB3/Boom/Receiver/etc. players other than for nostalgia by the time IPv6 was necessary to have a good user experience.

Tozz
2010-08-17, 02:42
IPv6 is not going to happen in firmware. You will never run out of IPv4 addresses on your LAN. Try 10.x.x.x.

I actually have a /27 subnet with public IPs. I _do_ run out of IPv4 addresses. Besides that, IPv6 will become mainstream, whether you like it or not. Why not add support for it now?

jwagner010
2010-08-17, 03:33
I would prefer the developers focus on gettig a bug free 7.6 out soon rather than getting distracted from something like this.

Phil Leigh
2010-08-17, 04:55
I would prefer the developers focus on gettig a bug free 7.6 out soon rather than getting distracted from something like this.

+ 1 - just add it to the "unlikely enhancements" pile

iPhone
2010-08-17, 05:55
I actually have a /27 subnet with public IPs. I _do_ run out of IPv4 addresses. Besides that, IPv6 will become mainstream, whether you like it or not. Why not add support for it now?

Because its not needed and a total waste of time. It is similar to the people saying, "I won't buy a Squeezebox until it is N WiFi compliant." Again, the Squeezebox doesn't need to be anything more then G.

It is your choice to have the public subnet and nothing near what the normal user has.

Aslak3
2010-08-17, 09:35
A more useful angle to this might be:

Should squeezebox be able to reach Internet Radio streams that are sitting on ipv6 addresses? This may well be possible already, if everything is proxying through the SBS (wether thats a local SBS or mysb.com shouldn't matter).

Otherwise I see little benefit of SB (in general) supporting IPv6 anytime soon. As far as as I know, no one *didn't buy one* because it lacks IPv6.

IPv6 will come. Some day.

andyg
2010-08-17, 10:03
This will never happen on the older players. Radio/Touch run Linux so it's possible it already works, if not it would be pretty easy to enable. Patches welcome.

pfarrell
2010-08-17, 10:17
We have decades before this is an issue for most people. Sure, IPv6 is coming, and a lot faster than the ISPs think. But they will still do local IPv4/Nat inside your home network, because there are far too many things already in use that won't support it.

The technology is there, nearly all important OS support dual stack today. But the ISPs have to do serious investment both at their CO/switches and every home "router/modem" has to be replaced. This will take years to roll out.

tezet
2010-09-03, 10:56
While I agree that for most IPv6 is a long time away, for me it isn't. My ISP delivers and supports it. The issue I have is not with the SB but with the webinterface of SBS. It doesn't listen on IPv6 on my server, which means my browser (any) which prefer ipv6 btw, is unable to connect to the hostname (box.lan:9000) I have to enter it's ip4-address instead. I would like IPv6 support in SBS. I don't care which ip version is used between my Radio or SB3 to the SBS. Any private range is fine by me.

Phil Leigh
2010-09-03, 11:02
While I agree that for most IPv6 is a long time away, for me it isn't. My ISP delivers and supports it. The issue I have is not with the SB but with the webinterface of SBS. It doesn't listen on IPv6 on my server, which means my browser (any) which prefer ipv6 btw, is unable to connect to the hostname (box.lan:9000) I have to enter it's ip4-address instead. I would like IPv6 support in SBS. I don't care which ip version is used between my Radio or SB3 to the SBS. Any private range is fine by me.

You mean you cant enter/create a shortcut to 127.0.0.1:9000 or xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:9000 ????

krbonne
2011-02-03, 16:42
Hi,


IPv6 is not going to happen in firmware. You will never run out of IPv4 addresses on your LAN. Try 10.x.x.x.

Great, but that's not the issue.

The IANA has today given out the last ipv4 addresses to the RIRs. The central ipv4 stack is now completely empty. By the summer, the APNIC (the RIR for the Asia-Pacific area) will run out too and a couple months later (before the end of this year!!!), we will see the first ISPS -and therefor users- who do not have a public IPv4 address anymore. Europe and North-America are to follow in early 2012.

What does this mean?

Radio-stations in the Asia-Pacific area will have to pay extra to get assurance to get a public ipv4 address; not for ipv6 addresses.

If I want to listen to a station/stream located on a private LAN of somebody in the Asia/pacific area, it will not be possible anymore to access that station in ipv4, only in ipv6.

Ipv6 is about much more then just ip-address size. Just two examples:
- I want to be able to access my squeezebox at home and control it from anywhere on the internet, and ipv6 allows me to do this. ipv4 with NAT does not.
- Ipv6 allows broadcasting in peer-to-peer configuration allowing for cheaper radio-stations (like personal radio-stations). Ipv4 does not allow this.

Ipv6 is a key component of "the internet of things", just like "intelligent devices" (like the squeezebox).
Ipv6 is here. You are liberated from ipv4 NAT, just think what new possiblities this allows you.



Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

pfarrell
2011-02-03, 17:03
Just two examples:
- I want to be able to access my squeezebox at home and control it from anywhere on the internet, and ipv6 allows me to do this. ipv4 with NAT does not.
- Ipv6 allows broadcasting in peer-to-peer configuration allowing for cheaper radio-stations (like personal radio-stations). Ipv4 does not allow this.

All very true. But don't expect it to happen to anything in the current SqueezeBox line. None of the old products are going to change significantly. The Touch and Radio might, but I won't hold my breath.

Universal remote access without a VPN is nice, but its sure not a mass-market requirement.

Agree the the rendezvous capabilities of IPv6 are great, and will make TV and movies much more interesting. But I don't see a need for audio, it so low in bandwidth requirements.

I just don't see it happening in the US because the ISPs are dragging their feet.

pski
2011-02-03, 17:51
- I want to be able to access my squeezebox at home and control it from anywhere on the internet, and ipv6 allows me to do this. ipv4 with NAT does not.
Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

This is blatantly false. Blatantly false is a euphemism for bullshit. I routinely use my music and my boom from anywhere. This is the beauty of the product.

Just because you do not know how to do it doesn't mean it's not possible.

See here:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Enjoying_your_music_from_another_place

P

andyg
2011-02-03, 18:03
We will, at some point this year, update SBS and SqueezePlay devices to support IPv6, as well as MySB.com, but for older ip3k (pre-Radio) players, they will only have IPv4 support. I expect that it will be common for home routers to do IPv4-over-IPv6 for LAN devices that don't support v6.

Goodsounds
2011-02-03, 22:05
This is blatantly false. Blatantly false is a euphemism for bullshit.

Overreact much? Hope the guy's comment didn't ruin your month.

servies
2011-02-04, 01:12
We will, at some point this year, update SBS and SqueezePlay devices to support IPv6, as well as MySB.com, but for older ip3k (pre-Radio) players, they will only have IPv4 support.
This is the answer I would be expecting. Although I'm not that technically familiar with the older ip3k platform, I suspect that it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to support both IPv4 and IPv6 and still maintain the current functionality...

I expect that it will be common for home routers to do IPv4-over-IPv6 for LAN devices that don't support v6.
Getting data from an IPv4 site to an IPv6 device won't be a problem.... But getting data from an IPv6 (only) site to an IPv4 device will... You won't be able to stream from an IPv6 radiostation unless you use the squeezeboxserver as a proxy, but not everybody is using sqeeuzeboxserver...

krbonne
2011-02-04, 02:02
Hi,


This is blatantly false. Blatantly false is a euphemism for bullshit. I routinely use my music and my boom from anywhere. This is the beauty of the product.

Just because you do not know how to do it doesn't mean it's not possible.

See here:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Enjoying_your_music_from_another_place

P


OK. let me rephrase. You cannot do this, without a public ipv4 address.

One thing that you have to keep in mind, is that once public IP-addresses have run out, you will be put behind a NAT of the ISP for your ipv4-to-ipv4 traffic. Do not expect that these "CGN" (Carrier Grade Nat) services will offer port-forwarding.

The only way you can then have ipv4 peer-to-peer connectivity will be via some kind of relay. OK, you can get a connection via a VPN-service somewhere, but this actually is pretty much the same thing as "buying a public ipv4 address".
Or you can get yourself a "business" subscription at your ISP -which includes a fixed ipv4-address- but do not complain if you need to pay (say) 20 euro a month extra for that.


Why would you get throu all this problem is you can just move to ipv6 and have full any-to-any connectivity between any device on the planet?
- between your phone/tablet and your SB
- between your SB and a shoutcast server operated by somebody on her private LAN-network at home
- between your SB and the NAS of a friend on his home-LAN
- between your SB and somebody elses in a peer-to-peer broadcasting network.
- to receive ipv6 multicast stations (RP-embedded ipv6 multicast addressing allows ANY ipv6 router to act RP for a multicast-stream so everybody is able to start a radio-station using ipv6 multicast).

If you just use your SB to listen to an internet-radio station of some large media-concern, ipv4 and nat and nat-after-nat will do just fine. But if you want to go beyond that, ipv6 is an opportunity which allows for all kind of new and decentralised services. Learn to use it and image what you can do with it.



Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

krbonne
2011-02-04, 02:16
Hi Pat,


All very true. But don't expect it to happen to anything in the current SqueezeBox line. None of the old products are going to change significantly. The Touch and Radio might, but I won't hold my breath.


Of course. I do not expect this to be written this in a week neither.

The only point I wanted to make is that one should not concider ipv6 as just "a fix for the fact that the ipv4 address-space has run out". It's much more than that. (see my other messages on that, I try not to repeat myself to much :-) ).

It will take time for ipv6 to get deployed and for people to have this "ok, as any device on the planet can now talk to any other deivce, so perhaps we can use it for ..." moment, which is needed for the new applications to dreamed up, coded and appear.


But, of course, if a box does not talk ipv6, there is no way it can participate in this. :-)


I hope that the ipv4exhaustion will do its work. I see that the SB-code will get upgraded to support ipv6 this year.
I've made my point so I rest my case.




Agree the the rendezvous capabilities of IPv6 are great, and will make TV and movies much more interesting. But I don't see a need for audio, it so low in bandwidth requirements.


It would allow everybody to start their audio-stream from his/her own private network or it can be used for other kinds of data like status-updates or playlists.
Perhaps it will be used for other application where we haven't thought of yet. (as it does not exist yet).




I just don't see it happening in the US because the ISPs are dragging their feet.

Try http://ipv6.comcast.com/ :-)



Cheeeerio! Kr. Bonne.

virgiliomi
2011-02-04, 05:33
I just don't see it happening in the US because the ISPs are dragging their feet.

Really?

Major Sites to join "World IPv6 Day" (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/01/12/1549246/Major-Sites-To-Join-lsquoWorld-IPv6-Dayrsquo?from=rss)

Comcast activates IPv6 Trial Users (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/2314252/Comcast-Activates-IPv6-Trial-Users?from=rss)

Verizon also did IPv6 testing last year on their FiOS network, and I wouldn't be surprised if they start their trials soon too.

The cell carriers will likely be the slowest, since there are so many devices out there that don't, or can't, support IPv6... of course, a lot of cell phone internet access is already going through NAT or proxy servers...

pfarrell
2011-02-04, 05:43
>> I just don't see it happening in the US because the ISPs are dragging
>> their feet.
>
> Really?

Really. My ISP (Cox Communcations) responded with "what is that" when I
called and asked to get an IPv6 modem to my house.

You cite Verizon starting to test over Fios. The net has allocated its
last IPv4 block this week. Its all NAT from here on out.

There is a big IPv6 test scheduled for June. If it works, commercial
rollout will start then.

Lots of feet dragging.

Cisco has been making products and giving presentations and really
pushing this for years, because they will get to sell tons of new
routers, "cable modems" etc.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

virgiliomi
2011-02-04, 06:50
>> I just don't see it happening in the US because the ISPs are dragging
>> their feet.
>
> Really?

Really. My ISP (Cox Communcations) responded with "what is that" when I
called and asked to get an IPv6 modem to my house.

You cite Verizon starting to test over Fios. The net has allocated its
last IPv4 block this week. Its all NAT from here on out.

There is a big IPv6 test scheduled for June. If it works, commercial
rollout will start then.

Lots of feet dragging.

Cisco has been making products and giving presentations and really
pushing this for years, because they will get to sell tons of new
routers, "cable modems" etc.


I would expect ANY ISP customer service to respond "What's that?". They're not usually the brightest of the bunch when it comes to the latest and greatest IT stuff. If they're not spoon-fed information about new technologies, they don't usually know what they are. BTW... Cox is doing IPv6 trials (http://www.cable360.net/ct/data/Cox-Readies-to-Support-IPv6_43852.html) as well.

Verizon's initial IPv6 tests over FiOS were last year around April, about the same time as Comcast started doing their initial tests as well.

And by the way... just because all of the IPv4 blocks have been handed out to the regional NICs doesn't mean that EVERY address is in use as of yesterday. Keep in mind that EVERY class A (/8)is 16.5 million IP addresses... APNIC just received three of those (the last two that could be requested, as well as a third that was part of the automatic distribution). That 49+ million IP addresses will likely allow them to get through most of this year, if not into next year. Similarly, the other regional NIC's likely have more than a few smaller blocks of addresses still available, in addition to the 16.5 million that they each just received.

The clock is ticking, yes... but it's not doomsday yet. It's definitely time for companies making networked devices to begin putting IPv6 support in though... it will be here before we all know it.

pfarrell
2011-02-04, 07:19
On 02/04/2011 08:50 AM, virgiliomi wrote:
> I would expect ANY ISP customer service to respond "What's that?".
> They're not usually the brightest of the bunch when it comes to the
> latest and greatest IT stuff.

Of course, which is why I stayed on the line to the second tier folks,
and asked them to connect me to the technical tier two folks.


> The clock is ticking, yes... but it's not doomsday yet. It's definitely
> time for companies making networked devices to begin putting IPv6
> support in though... it will be here before we all know it.

Its been past time. IPv6 is over a decade old. There has been lots of
feet dragging.

None of this will impact consumers for years. Linux, Windows and OS-X
have had dual stack support for years. No one has used it, so there may
be bugs, but the code is there, the design is there, it just has to be
rolled out.

Andy confirmed that the modern devices will get IPv6 support in the
future, the old ones, Classic, Transporter, etc. will never see it. I
don't expect this to be a problem for 99% of the customers.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

krbonne
2011-02-04, 10:57
Hi,




And by the way... just because all of the IPv4 blocks have been handed out to the regional NICs doesn't mean that EVERY address is in use as of yesterday. Keep in mind that EVERY class A (/8)is 16.5 million IP addresses... APNIC just received three of those (the last two that could be requested, as well as a third that was part of the automatic distribution). That 49+ million IP addresses will likely allow them to get through most of this year, if not into next year. Similarly, the other regional NIC's likely have more than a few smaller blocks of addresses still available, in addition to the 16.5 million that they each just received.


Here's an interesting graph of the timeframe when the RIRs are expected to run out of addrsses:
http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/rir.jpg


And if there is one thing that the IANA predictions have shown, is that usually the actual depletion happens faster then what the models predict

Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

pski
2011-02-05, 19:42
Hi,
OK. let me rephrase. You cannot do this, without a public ipv4 address.

One thing that you have to keep in mind, is that once public IP-addresses have run out, you will be put behind a NAT of the ISP for your ipv4-to-ipv4 traffic. Do not expect that these "CGN" (Carrier Grade Nat) services will offer port-forwarding.

The only way you can then have ipv4 peer-to-peer connectivity will be via some kind of relay. OK, you can get a connection via a VPN-service somewhere, but this actually is pretty much the same thing as "buying a public ipv4 address".
Or you can get yourself a "business" subscription at your ISP -which includes a fixed ipv4-address- but do not complain if you need to pay (say) 20 euro a month extra for that.


Why would you get throu all this problem is you can just move to ipv6 and have full any-to-any connectivity between any device on the planet?
- between your phone/tablet and your SB
- between your SB and a shoutcast server operated by somebody on her private LAN-network at home
- between your SB and the NAS of a friend on his home-LAN
- between your SB and somebody elses in a peer-to-peer broadcasting network.
- to receive ipv6 multicast stations (RP-embedded ipv6 multicast addressing allows ANY ipv6 router to act RP for a multicast-stream so everybody is able to start a radio-station using ipv6 multicast).

If you just use your SB to listen to an internet-radio station of some large media-concern, ipv4 and nat and nat-after-nat will do just fine. But if you want to go beyond that, ipv6 is an opportunity which allows for all kind of new and decentralised services. Learn to use it and image what you can do with it.



Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

The conditions here in the US are not what you are used-to.

I have had a "public" static IP address for years. While I appreciate the advances ipv6 will offer I don't think my service will be impacted any time soon. If it is, I know who to call.

P

wido
2013-12-27, 03:54
We will, at some point this year, update SBS and SqueezePlay devices to support IPv6, as well as MySB.com, but for older ip3k (pre-Radio) players, they will only have IPv4 support. I expect that it will be common for home routers to do IPv4-over-IPv6 for LAN devices that don't support v6.

I'm interested how far Logitech is in building IPv6 support for the Logitech Media Server?

toby10
2013-12-27, 04:04
I'm interested how far Logitech is in building IPv6 support for the Logitech Media Server?

Probably not far as it is a discontinued product line.