PDA

View Full Version : Suggested behaviour on new install



egd
2008-10-03, 21:51
Having just installed 7.3 on a Windows box and run through the configuration wizard could I suggest that the default behaviour of initiating a scan become optional - for many of us this initial scan is an utter waste of time because we're going to change SC's behaviour through configuration settings that will in turn initiate a rescan...so why force us into a redundant scan?

funkstar
2008-10-04, 06:39
Agreed.

There should be a check box on the last step of the wizard that allows you to unselect automatically scanning your library. Either that or an advanced button that dumps you straight into the server settings.

I know there is a link to stop the scanning, but this little UI change would polish things up nicely.

egd
2008-10-04, 06:53
If any effort is made to fix this there should also be an option in the setup that says "Don't initiate a rescan until I say so", regardless of which options I'm setting. If I'm not mistaken, after aborting the scan and then going into settings, the scan re-initiated of its own accord when I changed some options that affect the scanning logic...never mind I still had other settings to tweak that also impact scanning logic.

funkstar
2008-10-04, 07:04
Thats a good point, I forgot about that.

Secret Squirrel
2008-10-04, 08:32
Having just installed 7.3 on a Windows box and run through the configuration wizard could I suggest that the default behaviour of initiating a scan become optional - for many of us this initial scan is an utter waste of time because we're going to change SC's behaviour through configuration settings that will in turn initiate a rescan...so why force us into a redundant scan?

From an IT perspective, I don't agree with this addition. As I understand the 7.3 release and any other release may include changes to the data base. If that is correct your system would not function correctly if you did not delete and rescan your library. IMO, the rescan is a temporary inconvenience for permanent peace of mind. (I realize that it's not that temporary for those of us with gigantic libraries but still....the system would work as updated.)

Just my two cents

SS

erland
2008-10-04, 23:41
From an IT perspective, I don't agree with this addition. As I understand the 7.3 release and any other release may include changes to the data base. If that is correct your system would not function correctly if you did not delete and rescan your library. IMO, the rescan is a temporary inconvenience for permanent peace of mind. (I realize that it's not that temporary for those of us with gigantic libraries but still....the system would work as updated.)

It always needs to upgrade or create the database, but it doesn't need to fill it with data. If the database changes are big in 7.3 (or probably 8.0) it will probably result in that the database is upgraded and also cleared. However this is still better than also performing the rescan automatically, the reason is that for advanced users it doesn't make sense to spend time filling the database until you have configured all the parameters that specifies how the database should be filled.

The default should be that it creates/upgrade the database and also runs a rescan, this will work good for normal users. For advanced users already familiar with SqueezeCenter it should be possible to select to only create/upgrade the database but not perform the rescan.

If we want something to happen related to this, it's a good idea that someone writes an enhancement request at http://bugs.slimdevices.com (unless there already is one registered)

mherger
2008-10-05, 10:51
> Having just installed 7.3 on a Windows box and run through the
> configuration wizard could I suggest that the default behaviour of
> initiating a scan become optional - for many of us this initial scan is
> an utter waste of time because we're going to change SC's behaviour
> through configuration settings that will in turn initiate a rescan...so
> why force us into a redundant scan?

If this is the case, then we probably should re-think the default settings instead. What prefs do you need to change?

Please keep in mind that the wizard should mainly help the newbie user get his system up and running as quickly as possible. How often does a user who knows about the subtleties of all the prefs set up new systems? I rather wanted to start the scanner earlier than later, so there's as much of a user's collection available as possible.

--

Michael

erland
2008-10-05, 13:32
If this is the case, then we probably should re-think the default settings instead. What prefs do you need to change?

Personally, I always need to change:
"Separator for Multiple Items in Tags" and set it to ";"

JJZolx
2008-10-05, 22:48
> Having just installed 7.3 on a Windows box and run through the
> configuration wizard could I suggest that the default behaviour of
> initiating a scan become optional - for many of us this initial scan is
> an utter waste of time because we're going to change SC's behaviour
> through configuration settings that will in turn initiate a rescan...so
> why force us into a redundant scan?

If this is the case, then we probably should re-think the default settings instead. What prefs do you need to change?

For one, the setting that does not group discs in a multi-disc set. Always seemed to be an unusual default to me. And changing it (last time I checked) requires a full rescan of the library. That's the one that always drove me nuts if I didn't catch it and allowed the initial scan to complete. Then I'd see strange library album totals and realize that I need to scan the library all over again.

But I don't think changing the defaults is going to solve this particular problem, because someone else will want different library settings.

How about adding one more step in the wizard, similar to the last step in many installers? Have a dialog that say

[x] Begin scanning my library now.

Most users will just press the 'Next' (or 'Finish') button and scan away. But it would also give more experienced users the option to avoid the scan.

funkstar
2008-10-06, 02:01
For one, the setting that does not group discs in a multi-disc set. Always seemed to be an unusual default to me. And changing it (last time I checked) requires a full rescan of the library. That's the one that always drove me nuts if I didn't catch it and allowed the initial scan to complete. Then I'd see strange library album totals and realize that I need to scan the library all over again.
Thats the one that gets me too.

egd
2008-10-07, 01:58
If this is the case, then we probably should re-think the default settings instead. What prefs do you need to change?I think Jim's answer is the correct one. There's never going to be a default configuration that meets everyone's needs.

egd
2008-10-07, 02:00
From an IT perspective, I don't agree with this addition. As I understand the 7.3 release and any other release may include changes to the data base. If that is correct your system would not function correctly if you did not delete and rescan your library. IMO, the rescan is a temporary inconvenience for permanent peace of mind. (I realize that it's not that temporary for those of us with gigantic libraries but still....the system would work as updated.)

Just my two cents

SS

IMHO, the correct approach would be to flag that the db required an upgrade and to allow the user to initiate the process when they're ready.

mherger
2008-10-07, 02:46
> I think Jim's answer
>> is the correct one. There's never going to be a
> default configuration that meets everyone's needs.

FWIW: we're designing the defaults for the new user who doesn't know
anything about SC. Therefore I'm sorry: there won't be a "don't start scan
now" checkbox, as the user isn't even aware of all the options at this
point. We're rather going to rip the wizard out all together than adding
this additional checkbox.

Michael

egd
2008-10-07, 03:05
Not sure I understand the reasoning behind pulling the wizard rather than including an opt out. If you feel this strongly about it, we do have the option to abort scan, which I'm happy to do, but then can I ask for one thing...: where changing an option triggers a rescan, please, please, please allow the user to decide when that rescan should be triggered.

mherger
2008-10-07, 03:17
> Not sure I understand the reasoning behind pulling the wizard rather
> than including an opt out.

Such an option would rather confuse a new user than it would help. We want
to reduce the number of steps needed for a _new_ user to get his SB up and
running as low as possible. Music folders, iTunes etc. can be found
automatically. No need to ask (in most cases: Windows/OSX). Just run that
scan.

You're not guy to design for when it comes to a simplified out of the box
experience: you know SC and its features, tweaks, options, and you're
running it on some rather exotic system. The average new user will run
Windows (or at best OSX), and he wants to listen to some music without
reading anything the quickest possible.

> ask for one thing...: where changing an option triggers a rescan,
> please, please, please allow the user to decide when that rescan should
> be triggered.

Feel free to file an enhancement request if this is important to you.

Michael

GlenL
2008-10-07, 03:45
Perhaps two setup options should be available e.g Quick Setup, recommended for first time users and Advanced Setup, the user choosing by clicking a radio button.

The Quick Setup would install as it does now whereas the Advanced Setup would give the user the option of tweaking the install e.g run/don't run scan, set genre seperator character etc.

egd
2008-10-07, 03:45
Such an option would rather confuse a new user than it would help. We want to reduce the number of steps needed for a _new_ user to get his SB up and running as low as possible. Music folders, iTunes etc. can be found automatically. No need to ask (in most cases: Windows/OSX). Just run that scan.Understand, but I think this could be worked around with some simple prompts and examples explaining the impact of selections: 1st option prompt - just scan my music, I want to listen already
2nd option prompt - I'm over the excitement, now I'd like to fine tune things a little. Option 2 could have information tags telling you what they do and could trigger the scan after the user has selected the behaviours they would like. If you really wanted to you could even include a "this is all too hard, just give me my music" button on every screen and it would call option 1's routine.


You're not guy to design for when it comes to a simplified out of the box
experience: you know SC and its features, tweaks, options, and you're
running it on some rather exotic system. The average new user will run
Windows (or at best OSX), and he wants to listen to some music without
reading anything the quickest possible.Agreed, but that shouldn't mean that at all times you cater only to the LCD, rather the LCD should be the baseline default, with an opt-out clause.

mherger
2008-10-07, 03:56
> LCD, rather the LCD should be the baseline default, with an opt-out
> clause.

How often do you install SC from scratch, needing to go through the
wizard? Once it's done, it's done. Isn't it? I can't remember when I had
to do this the last time. It's really intended for the novice user.

Michael

egd
2008-10-07, 04:16
> LCD, rather the LCD should be the baseline default, with an opt-out
> clause.

How often do you install SC from scratch, needing to go through the
wizard? Once it's done, it's done. Isn't it? I can't remember when I had
to do this the last time. It's really intended for the novice user.

Michael

Every time a friend or colleague buys an SB3, Transporter or Duet on my recommendation :/

mherger
2008-10-07, 04:28
>> How often do you install SC from scratch, needing to go through the
>> wizard?
>
> Every time a friend or colleague buys an SB3, Transporter or Duet on my
> recommendation :/

Now you see why we have to simplify the _initial_ setup: no need for you
to do it if it's simple enough ;-)

Michael

mherger
2008-10-07, 04:29
> Every time a friend or colleague buys an SB3, Transporter or Duet on my
> recommendation :/

With 7.3 you should be able to pre-configure such installations using a
trick: create a Slim::Utils::OS::Custom file which inherits from your
friend's OS, but which overwrites the prefs you want to set :-)

Michael

egd
2008-10-07, 04:41
Now you see why we have to simplify the _initial_ setup: no need for you to do it if it's simple enough ;-)That'd just be delaying the inevitable :P

mherger
2008-10-07, 04:42
> With 7.3 you should be able to pre-configure such installations using a
> trick: create a Slim::Utils::OS::Custom file which inherits from your
> friend's OS, but which overwrites the prefs you want to set :-)

What a stupid idea... why not just put a server.prefs with only the
settings you want to overwrite in the installation folder?

Michael

MrSinatra
2008-10-08, 23:38
mherger, are you yelling at yourself? weird.

in any case, my twenty two cents:

i am all for simplifying, but as a user who has championed the cause of the masses on these boards, i find the arguments in this thread not convincing...

first of all, there is no problem whatsoever from a KISS pov, to add a button in the install wizard that says "optional advanced settings" or something like that. to me, its just nuts to say that somehow will melt a newbies mind. it won't.

secondly, i think the setup wizard should explain that slim stuff doesn't use audio device drivers at all. a lot of new users imo are surprised at the TCP/IP paradigm, and it should be explained, or at least provide a wiki link of explanation.

thirdly, i find that automatically triggered rescans are indeed confusing and disorienting to newbies, and even some more advanced users. i still don't know which ones will and won't do this. i find it very irritating. why not give users the global option to opt out of automatically triggered rescans? so u can have it by default but opt out if you want?

you could add a status line to the settings page or player page saying "rescan required" if an option is changed that necessitates the rescan.

certainly slim realizes that if a user want to change 2 or more such auto triggers, its irritating to not be able to do them both before it starts.

finally, i do think if advanced options were available during setup, it should be feasible to delay an inital clear and rescan, at least until you can set all options the way you want.

mherger
2008-10-08, 23:56
> mherger, are you yelling at yourself?

Yes.

> weird.

I'm training my ability to take and give criticism :-)

> first of all, there is no problem whatsoever from a KISS pov, to add a
> button in the install wizard that says "optional advanced settings" or
> something like that. to me, its just nuts to say that somehow will
> melt a newbies mind. it won't.

You need to take a look at the big picture: If you go out and buy a Duet,
you'll have to go through 20 or 30 steps taking actions, decisions etc. to
get it up and running. Even if my numbers are wrong, there are way too
many steps. We have to cut them down. Some are hard to leave out (eg. WLAN
configuration), others are simple. Guess which ones we'll try to get rid
of first. The user wants to listen to music, not answer a 30 point
questionnaire, not even whether he wants advanced or simplified
configuration ("oh, I don't want to miss anything - let's go XXL with the
advanced options"). Sometimes less is more.

> secondly, i think the setup wizard should explain that slim stuff
> doesn't use audio device drivers at all.

Support never mentioned this being an issue.

> a lot of new users imo are
> surprised at the TCP/IP paradigm, and it should be explained, or at
> least provide a wiki link of explanation.

Not sure. Networking is involved, "Network music player" is written on the
box. But the user should not have to deal about a "TCP/IP paradigm"
(what's that anyway? I don't know neither). He should plug the device in,
set the WLAN password and be done.

> thirdly, i find that automatically triggered rescans are indeed
> confusing and disorienting to newbies, and even some more advanced
> users. i still don't know which ones will and won't do this. i find

I was wondering whether we should change default behaviour to cancel a
running scan if a new action is triggering a scan. This at least would
remove the need to cancel it manually.

> you could add a status line to the settings page or player page saying
> "rescan required" if an option is changed that necessitates the
> rescan.

Sounds reasonable. Please file an enhancement request.

Michael

Nonreality
2008-10-09, 00:06
Why not like a lot of windows programs do now. Reboot now or I'll do it later. Scan your library now or I'll do it later?

JJZolx
2008-10-09, 00:25
One other thing you can do, if you do clean installs often: Leave the music library pointed at My Music or else purposely point it at an empty folder. A scan will take just a couple of seconds and then you can change the settings to your liking.

I generally use the method of using a server.prefs file saved from another installation. If you're going to use the prefs for another user's installation you should remove all player settings from the file. Stop the server, copy server.prefs, restart the server, change music and playlists folders in the server settings, then launch a new scan.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 00:29
> first of all, there is no problem whatsoever from a KISS pov, to add a
> button in the install wizard that says "optional advanced settings" or
> something like that. to me, its just nuts to say that somehow will
> melt a newbies mind. it won't.

You need to take a look at the big picture: If you go out and buy a Duet,
you'll have to go through 20 or 30 steps taking actions, decisions etc. to
get it up and running. Even if my numbers are wrong, there are way too
many steps. We have to cut them down. Some are hard to leave out (eg. WLAN
configuration), others are simple. Guess which ones we'll try to get rid
of first. The user wants to listen to music, not answer a 30 point
questionnaire, not even whether he wants advanced or simplified
configuration ("oh, I don't want to miss anything - let's go XXL with the
advanced options"). Sometimes less is more.

this is the perspective i don't get... if you're concerned with noobs who just want it up and running as quick as possible, then be concerned with that. don't make an assumption that this group will ALSO click a button they don't need to click, b/c frankly, if they do so, they no longer are part of that group!

it could be called "advanced users options only." make it scary. 'enter at your own risk.' make it so if they click it, its overwhelming, and so they back out.

but don't try to find reasons not to do it, when it so clearly makes sense to do it. i am always interacting with novice computer users, and this would not be a problem from my exp. lots of programs do it just as i describe.

and before you tell me i'm wrong about all this consider:

you are WAY advanced, you are a slim expert. therefore you really aren't in a position to judge.

in other words, its the masses out here, who i often identify with vis a vis slim, who you should be listening to to make these decisions for you.

if the goal is to make it appeal to the masses, then listen to the masses! don't try to think for them, which is an error i find slim makes too often.



> secondly, i think the setup wizard should explain that slim stuff
> doesn't use audio device drivers at all.

Support never mentioned this being an issue.

well, most people don't like to admit embarrassing things. but as slim clearly plans to try to get this out to a wider audience, i think it would be helpful for the setup program to provide a link to a wiki that explained what the slim stuff is, and how it works, and what it isn't. i know that i have a hard time explaining to people i try to convert, and it would be so much easier showing them via a wiki page.

i do think people will buy it WITHOUT understanding all this.



> a lot of new users imo are
> surprised at the TCP/IP paradigm, and it should be explained, or at
> least provide a wiki link of explanation.

Not sure. Networking is involved, "Network music player" is written on the
box. But the user should not have to deal about a "TCP/IP paradigm"
(what's that anyway? I don't know neither). He should plug the device in,
set the WLAN password and be done.

the user shouldn't have to deal with that? thats a rather lofty goal considering how essential it is.

a TCP/IP paradigm vis a vis slim is one where audio is sent to your player via network protocol. sure, its a bit heavy to explain it that way to the user, but i wasn't saying thats how it should be done, rather just that it should be done somehow.



> thirdly, i find that automatically triggered rescans are indeed
> confusing and disorienting to newbies, and even some more advanced
> users. i still don't know which ones will and won't do this. i find

I was wondering whether we should change default behaviour to cancel a
running scan if a new action is triggering a scan. This at least would
remove the need to cancel it manually.

why do it like that?

again, the thrust from slim is to think for me. VA logic, greatest hits logic, automatic rescans, etc... its all very irritating. i just the option to opt out. why not grant me that rather than start an unnecessary scan i don't want only to have it cancelled an restarted again automatically if i fool with a second automatic option?

the problem ISN'T cancelling it manually! its the opposite!



> you could add a status line to the settings page or player page saying
> "rescan required" if an option is changed that necessitates the
> rescan.

Sounds reasonable. Please file an enhancement request.

Michael

thanks. i do appreciate your hard work, i just am adamant in my opinions, to my wifes daily distress. and i will file that bug.

everyone:

basically my proposal will be that a user can globally opt out of any automatic rescans. if they do so, and they change an option that necessitates a rescan, then a dynamic status line on both the settings page and the main player page will say "options updated, rescan required" until a rescan is done.

any thoughts or feedback?

i assume all auto rescans are "clear library and rescan everything" is that correct?

egd
2008-10-09, 00:39
thanks. i do appreciate your hard work, i just am adamant in my opinions, to my wifes daily distress. and i will file that bug.When you've done it post a link to it here and I'll vote for it.

everyone:


basically my proposal will be that a user can globally opt out of any automatic rescans. if they do so, and they change an option that necessitates a rescan, then a dynamic status line on both the settings page and the main player page will say "options updated, rescan required" until a rescan is done.

any thoughts or feedback? Only to say that the prompt should be clear "...rescan required for changes to take effect"



i assume all auto rescans are "clear library and rescan everything" is that correct?No idea, but why does it matter?

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 00:46
it doesn't matter functionally, but i just want the correct syntax to exactly explain to the user what needs, and is, to happen.

how about this:

"a clear and rescan of your library is required for changes in options to take effect."

and that assumes all options calling for a rescan do want a clear and rescan.

the other thing i want to put in the bug is that if a user changes such an option, then changes their mind and goes back to the original setting, the "nag" reminder should go away. it would be irritating if it didn't if the user changed their mind and didn't want to rescan.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 00:49
i think as a separate matter a bug should be filed to add an "options for advanced users" button in the setup wizard as well. i'll do that too, and hopefully everyone commenting in this thread will vote for both, and add their own suggestions to the bugs to improve the ideas.

egd
2008-10-09, 00:50
I generally use the method of using a server.prefs file saved from another installation. If you're going to use the prefs for another user's installation you should remove all player settings from the file. Stop the server, copy server.prefs, restart the server, change music and playlists folders in the server settings, then launch a new scan. Thanks Jim, I was going to ask Michael what the process was. Definitely not something a typical customer would want/should need to do. Whilst I accept it's an option I'd much prefer that I'm given a choice to have SC do nothing at all (ie don't even run the dumb down wizard, run the wizard, or take me through advanced settings). Perhaps they could be labeled as follows:

I'm a dumbass and don't like to think, please make all configuration decisions for me
I'm a masochist, leave me alone I'll configure it myself
I have at least two brain cells and they communicate - let me make a few decisions re how I'd like SC to present my library

As a spoiler you could also add:
I'm bored, please initiate random rescans at will

:D -- tongue firmly in cheek.

egd
2008-10-09, 00:51
i think as a separate matter a bug should be filed to add an "options for advanced users" button in the setup wizard as well. i'll do that too, and hopefully everyone commenting in this thread will vote for both, and add their own suggestions to the bugs to improve the ideas.

Both have my vote just as soon as you've posted them.

mherger
2008-10-09, 01:19
> I'm a dumbass and don't like to think, please make all configuration
> decisions for me
> I'm a masochist, leave me alone I'll configure it myself
> I'm have two brain cells and they communicate - let me make a few
> decisions re how I'd like SC to present my library

Could you please shorten these strings a bit? Our German translators will
have trouble fitting them on the screen :-)

Michael

mherger
2008-10-09, 01:44
> this is the perspective i don't get... if you're concerned with noobs
> who just want it up and running as quick as possible, then be concerned
> with that. *don't make an assumption that this group will ALSO click a
> button they don't need to click, b/c frankly, if thy do so, they no
> longer are part of that group!*

Wrong: people are lazy (I'm sorry, don't want to insult anyone, it's a
fact :-)), they don't read, thus tend to push buttons they didn't want to
push, simply because they were too lazy to think about it. How often did
you see people just click away any warning that came on their screen
without having a clue what it was about?

> but don't try to find reasons not to do it, when it so clearly makes
> sense to do it.

Don't worry: I don't make up reasons, we let others find them. We're
currently spending a lot of time and effort collecting information on the
out of the box experience, watching new users of all kinds (audiophiles
with $$$$$ equipment, engineers, Joe Sixpack and his daughter, the man who
doesn't set up an FM radio himself, etc.) how they handle the initial
setup. I haven't seen one single complaint so far about a scan being
triggered too early, or not enough options to start with. But a lot of
"what, another wizard?" and "where's my music?" kind of reactions.

Please accept that you're part of the very advanced users. Next time a
friend asks you to help him set up his new SB, don't do it. Just watch him
and try hard not to help him. You'll know what I mean.

> and before you tell me i'm wrong about all this consider:

I'm sorry, too late :-).

> you are WAY advanced, you are a slim expert.

And I welcome you to the club. You're as well. Too many bugs filed, I'm
sorry.

> therefore you really aren't in a position to judge.

I'm not judging, I'm communicating you our novice users' feedback.

> in other words, its the masses out here, who i often identify with vis
> a vis slim, who you should be listening to to make these decisions for
> you.

Exactly. That's part of my job and what I spend part of my time with right
now: watch newbies install a SB.

> if the goal is to make it appeal to the masses, then listen to the
> masses!

Then we can stop here. You're as little the masses as I am. You're one
voice.

> don't try to think for them,

We don't. We listen to them.

Michael

egd
2008-10-09, 02:24
Ok, jokes aside, I see both perspectives...and would appreciate SC catering to both extremes rather than ignoring one to cater for the other.

egd
2008-10-09, 02:31
> I'm a dumbass and don't like to think, please make all configuration
> decisions for me
> I'm a masochist, leave me alone I'll configure it myself
> I'm have at least two brain cells and they communicate - let me make a few
> decisions re how I'd like SC to present my library

Could you please shorten these strings a bit? Our German translators will
have trouble fitting them on the screen :-)

Michael

if the shoe fits <insert name here>
mherger;JJZolx
egd;MrSinatra

:D -- tongue once again firmly in cheek.

funkstar
2008-10-09, 02:34
One other thing you can do, if you do clean installs often: Leave the music library pointed at My Music or else purposely point it at an empty folder. A scan will take just a couple of seconds and then you can change the settings to your liking.
Brilliant! I never thought of that.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 13:23
please vote for these:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9687

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9688

and please add anything that would improve the function or the argument for them. thx.

egd
2008-10-09, 14:37
please vote for these
Done. Thanks for posting them.

Goodsounds
2008-10-09, 17:17
You guys should reread Michael's comments. I think you've missed his message. It's very clear, the future of this product line is not with advanced users. I'm sure everyone will be welcome, but simplification is needed to deal successfully with users and potential users at the other end of the spectrum. This makes sense, this is where the growth opportunity is and this is where having an overly complicated user experience, including setup, will cause problems. Not more choices and buttons, fewer. Not custom install with a lot of questions to answer, but rather installation on autopilot.

"I just want to listen to my music", they say. It's why people use Itunes and buy Airport Express units. Because they're easy to use.

If I'm right, the advanced users won't be thrown overboard, but their voices will become less important than they have been historically. Sounds like that may already be happening.

Michael, love your sense of humor.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 17:48
You guys should reread Michael's comments. I think you've missed his message. It's very clear, the future of this product line is not with advanced users. I'm sure everyone will be welcome, but simplification is needed to deal successfully with users and potential users at the other end of the spectrum. This makes sense, this is where the growth opportunity is and this is where having an overly complicated user experience, including setup, will cause problems. Not more choices and buttons, fewer. Not custom install with a lot of questions to answer, but rather installation on autopilot.

"I just want to listen to my music", they say. It's why people use Itunes and buy Airport Express units. Because they're easy to use.

If I'm right, the advanced users won't be thrown overboard, but their voices will become less important than they have been historically. Sounds like that may already be happening.

Michael, love your sense of humor.

i don't need to reread his comments, i disagree with them.

if SC is going to be for idiots only, then make a for idiots only version of it.

in fact, thats not really a bad idea. make one that is for power users, and make one that essentially a party mode / kiosk mode type one, and that will address a lot of issues.

but getting back to he current situation:

the fact is the current version has options, as all programs of this type do. musicmatch, winamp, etc... all have lots of options.

these noobs who slim seems to be worried about melting their computers, will STILL HAVE ACCESS to those options POST setup.

so whats the difference? is it really THAT important to keep them out of the options at setup at the cost of not giving the option to anyone with a brain in their head? even a noob can figure out to "stay out" if an option is displayed as such.

if "they just want to listen to their music" then they will IGNORE a button to advanced options, esp if its explained that they should if they don't know what they are doing in the dialog.

btw, i find it a little strange that suddenly the push is for noobs above all other considerations. it took me forever to get bug 8001 implemented or even realized that it was needed, for the once scorned unwashed masses, and now its extreme the other way.

compounding the issue is that a lot of what SC "intelligently" does is neither intelligent nor intuitive. the auto rescans and VA logic, greatest hits logic, and other things come to mind. these are all things NO other app does. and the tcp/ip paradigm isn't obvious either, or at least,, isn't to a noob whose mind might melt if he encounters an "options for advanced users only" button.

egd
2008-10-09, 18:07
You guys should reread Michael's comments. I think you've missed his message. It's very clear, the future of this product line is not with advanced users.There's no problem with comprehension of the written word here, perhaps it is you who should reread our comments and you will quickly realise that we understand the message, but don't necessarily agree with it.

Goodsounds
2008-10-09, 18:46
There's no problem with comprehension of the written word here, perhaps it is you who should reread our comments and you will quickly realise that we understand the message, but don't necessarily agree with it.

It just seemed to me that one side was not listening to the other side. Or, was choosing to not hear the unwanted portions of the message. I don't suspect that concurrence of the power user group is one of the company's objectives. Mr. Sinatra's comments show a lack of understanding of what idiots like me are looking for in these products.

We idiots represent a market opportunity that the company needs to address more successfully. I suspect that (bigger market share) is the company's #1 goal, which I am ok with. Are you?

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 19:13
i'm simply stating that an optional button during setup wouldn't melt an idiots, or noobs, mind or computer.

goodsounds, when i first got slim stuff there was NO real concern that i could see from slim or the community towards noobs and KISS customers. i constantly was trying to say this was a wrong headed approach, that they should listen to what i had to say as i was representative of that kind of customer at first.

now, in a relatively short time since logitech bought them, it now seems to be going 100% the other way. now as mherger has said, 'we need to make this stuff not just noob proof, but essentially idiot proof, and nothing less than the most totally austere presentation will do.'

well, i think thats wrongheaded too.

i don't mind slim gearing this thing to power users or noobs. either way is fine with me.

what i do mind is being so extreme about it. it IS reasonable to have options, even complex ones. look at winamp, a program that in many ways is FAR more complex, yet it is very successful even with noobs.

it IS reasonable to present ONE button for power users to access options during setup, esp since you can control how its presented and since the user will have access to those options anyway POST setup, regardless of how dumb they are.

Goodsounds
2008-10-09, 19:42
Mr. Sinatra, fair enough.

Logitech is a fine company. It's a business, not a social organization. The reality is that their expertise is not specialty products for niche markets. Someone commented here some weeks/months ago that some of the forum's active participants treat this product line as if it were this year's project of the high school computer club. That was a scream, it was too true.

I bought my first SB3 about 3 or so years ago, and the emphasis on the technically inclined nearly turned me off. I agree with you on that for sure. I perservered and made it through, but I still need to help friends I've evangelized to. That says it is still too complicated.

I don't mind if all the doo-dads are kept in. Heck, it's like MS Word or Excel, I don't use 95% of what's there and most people are like me in that regard. But, idiot proof for newbies would be a good goal. Greater market success would insure the continued availability and evolution of the products.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 20:31
i am pretty sure i was that person, talking to you, in a different thread (re: the high school hobby comment).

like i said earlier, i just have adamant opinions, its in my nature. i forcefully argue for them and i rarely mind if in doing so it rubs others the wrong way, b/c i think i do so civilly, if also vigorously. i might be wrong, but then again, i might be right.

a lot of installs of apps, including word and excel that you mentioned, have 3 modes:

typical
full
custom

and sometimes one of those is changed to "minimal" or something... but i think microsoft has more market research than logitech / slim, and they seem to think its ok to make advanced options available even though clearly they are concerned with noobs as well.

all i'm saying is its not like slim would be the only setup wizard to do this.

other than that one issue, i would urge slim to find a happy medium, and stop trying to "think" for me. i really believe they are driving themselves a lil nuts trying to anticipate every possible noob scenario.

if a noob is that clueless, the fact is their music will be a mess anyway, and SC is totally insane to try to use when your tags/music are a mess, (so what good would a dummy proof pgm be?)

egd
2008-10-09, 20:35
I suspect that (bigger market share) is the company's #1 goal, which I am ok with. Are you?Perfectly, however, nothing in my undergraduate or postgraduate literature and/or experience points to deliberately obfuscating features as a valid means of making or taking market share.

I fully agree that the user experience needs to be simplified (particularly for average Joe consumer who just wants to plug it in and listen). This is an aspiration completely missed with the Duet, which is hands down, easily the most confusing and frustrating device combo I've ever had to configure.

Frankly though, either way, I couldn't give a hoot anymore. I'm done fiddling with SC, MiP and the rest of it. Once my house is unpacked I'm going to set things up once, configure my favourite plugins and then leave it the hell alone. SC has a long, long, way to go and IMHO it will be a substantial period of time before incremental upgrades are sufficiently differentiated to really warrant an upgrade. For now I think I'll just listen to music.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 20:43
goodsounds,

actually, it was you responding to me about the HS comment.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=342946#post342946

Skunk
2008-10-09, 20:46
Perfectly, however, nothing in my undergraduate or postgraduate literature and/or experience points to deliberately obfuscating features as a valid means of making or taking market share.


That's because it's common sense. KISS.

Goodsounds
2008-10-09, 20:58
For MrSinatra:

I have to say that I really agree with what I said there!! ;-) Also with what you said.

For egd, who said:

"I'm going to set things up once, configure my favourite plugins and then leave it the hell alone."

It's a wonder to me that anyone would ever want to do anything else. Including the guy who wanted to use his boom to time his lasagna, so that he could check from upstairs when dinner would be ready. That's someone who needs to get out more!!

Goodsounds
2008-10-09, 21:28
.... nothing in my undergraduate or postgraduate literature and/or experience points to deliberately obfuscating features as a valid means of making or taking market share.


Most people are happy with new technology so long as they don't have to become junior engineers to use it. If the image or market perception of, or user experience with, a product feature is that it is too complicated, customers will be turned away. Example - BMW iDrive. Intended to be a desired feature, it turned out to be a big negative. Several revs later, BMW still hasn't fully shaken that off. Many other examples.

Much of Squeeze product line's features add unneeded and unwanted baggage that the average potential customer may be put off by. That's my view. And based on Michael's comments, people at the company have the same concern.

erland
2008-10-09, 22:34
Let's face it, if this product is going to continue living under the Logitech brand it really needs to be adapted for mass market consumption.

This means that some options and customization possibilities have to go, I completely agree that the most important part is to avoid them in the setup wizard. This way you can still have more advanced options hidden away in configuration pages which advanced users can find and you can still satisfy mass market users which don't want to be bothered with extra options. This is how iTunes works, this is how Windows Media Player works.

It's easy to say that one extra option isn't going to cause any trouble, but you have to realize that you are not going to want the exact same extra option as all other advanced users. So if we go down this route we will end up with a lot of extra options to satisfy everyone.

The main difference between SqueezeCenter and other music library software is that SqueezeCenter still allows a lot of customization after the installation. Microsoft and Apple has also tried to avoid this by limiting the options available after the installation because they know that they are a support headache. I'm suspecting Logitech will eventually realize they need go down the same road, however they can't do it as long as a big part of their customer base are geeks and advanced users so it won't happen over the night.

Personally I feel that if we really want extra options, two options in the first page of the wizard like this might work:
1. Help me configure my system (strongly recommended)
2. I don't want any help, let me configure everything manually.

The first option would be default and would initiate the wizard, the second option would just quit the wizard and let you do everything yourself in the normal settings pages.

A solution like this will make the wizard fairly simple both from a user and developer point of view and still allow special advanced users to do their manual choices.

The naming of the second option needs to be really scary so newbies doesn't choose it by accident. Another solution might be to just have a "skip wizard" link somewhere on the first wizard page that does the same thing.

By the way, I think I would choose the first option myself, because the wizard really makes it easier to setup an initial installation even though it doesn't make everything the way I want it.

MrSinatra
2008-10-09, 22:41
erland, if i understand your post correctly, i believe this is exactly what i am arguing FOR.

is this the case? or do you disagree?

and btw, WMP does ask quite a few questions the first time you use it, but i don't recall what exactly. i can't recall what itunes does but i absolutely hate itunes, mostly b/c it does TONS of things i don't want it to do that its designers consider "intelligent" ie. thinking for me.

mherger
2008-10-10, 00:33
Thanks a lot for all your comments. Didn't think a simple comment to an
enhancement could grow to such an animated discussion. So I'll try to
summarize our current standpoint (hoping not to mix "our" with "my" :-/):

- This thread is about the new install behaviour. We're designing the "new
install" case for new users, because they should be able to run the
installation without the help of an advanced user. In other words: egd
only started this thread, because initial setup is too complicated to be
done by an unexperienced user. We want to fix this.

- Our plans for the initial setup are clearly going towards
simplification, with less questions asked, less steps involved. The wizard
in SC might even go away. Good news for the advanced user: he'll have full
control right from the beginning. Good news for the noob: his iTunes,
local music, MusicIP etc. will be instantly available, no questions asked.

- There are no plans to remove existing features to "dumb" down the
product. We do plan to improve modularity, though, to improve
customization for eg. low power devices. Which means you could probably
have a SC without web UI. Not dumbed down, but stripped down to save
resources. And optional (yes, one more preference to tweak for the power
user).

Michael

mherger
2008-10-10, 00:40
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:42:36 +0200, Goodsounds
<Goodsounds.3h1ncz1223606701 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> Someone commented here some weeks/months ago that some of the
> forum's active participants treat this product line as if it were this
> year's project of the high school computer club. That was a scream, it
> was too true.

The biggest scream about this quote is the guy who said it. He's acting
exactly like one of those participants... :-P

(oops, sorry, very unprofessional, personal note...)

Michael

MrSinatra
2008-10-10, 09:55
how am i acting like one of those types i was accurately spoofing?

my beef when i said it, was that there are a lot of people here who act like this sold for profit product's software is their software, simply b/c they have been here a long time, or contributed code, or whatever, and they then react ridiculously to any criticism leveled at the product.

i basically was saying they not only needed a thicker skin, but they needed to get a grip on their relationship to the software, b/c clearly they had a delusional perception. (and that isn't to say they didn't contribute or aren't appreciated, its just that their expectations for how others, particularly those with problems, should express themselves here and their pile on smackdowns when not met were delusional, esp considering its not THEIR product)

i haven't been here that long, i've never contributed code and probably never will, and i rarely if ever take personal umbrage at criticism leveled at the product or software.

don't then conflate me and what i am saying here with what i said/spoofed in the other thread. its erroneous of you to characterize the situation that way, even as a joke, b/c it simply isn't accurate.

what i am doing here is saying that either extreme, (gearhead or noob) to the EXCLUSION of the other, is too far. it was wrong when it was gearhaeds only, and it will be just as wrong if its noobs only... and based on what i am seeing in this thread, it won't even be a good solution for noobs.

and saying that in no way puts me into the categorization i characterized/spoofed in the other thread.

i expect people to come here and complain, its totally NATURAL and its totally foolish to get upset about it if the way they express themselves offends their delicate sensibilities.

peterw
2008-10-10, 16:35
i haven't been here that long, i've never contributed code and probably never will, and i rarely if ever take personal umbrage at criticism leveled at the product or software.

Why would you take offense if you have contributed nothing, and don't intend to??

Michael, it sounds like you're headed in the right direction. Sane defaults, options for advanced users. It's beyond just a setup option -- I think it'd probably be good to have "Typical" and "Advanced" modes for the web UI, at least the settings pages, as I think there are too many visible options right now for most users (do novices really need to see Alan's sync timing values?). Offering Typical and Advanced web UI modes could be very easy with Javascript -- wrap the HTML for advanced info and settings in <SPAN> elements with a class like "SqueezeSettingsAdvanced" that's defined in CSS as "display: none;". If the user's in Advanced mode (determined by a cookie?), have some onLoad JS crawl the DOM and change obj.style.display to "" for any SPAN with that class to make the advanced settings visible. The browser would submit all settings; just in Typical mode the user wouldn't have the ability to see or change the advanced values. So no backend changes, just some SPAN tags, a couple lines of CSS, and a little JS.

-Peter

MrSinatra
2008-10-10, 16:46
i wouldn't, which is why michaels attempt to draw an analogy was false.

mherger
2008-10-10, 22:02
> i expect people to come here and complain, its totally NATURAL and its
> totally foolish to get upset about it if the way they express
> themselves offends their delicate sensibilities.

Perfect summary. Thanks.

--

Michael

mherger
2008-10-10, 22:04
> Michael, it sounds like you're headed in the right direction. Sane
> defaults, options for advanced users. It's beyond just a setup option
> -- I think it'd probably be good to have "Typical" and "Advanced" modes
> for the web UI, at least the settings pages, as I think there are too
> many visible options right now for most users (do novices really need
> to see Alan's sync timing values?).

Please file an enhancement request. You'll have my full support.

--

Michael

Philip Meyer
2008-10-12, 12:31
>the fact is the current version has options, as all programs of this
>type do. musicmatch, winamp, etc... all have lots of options.
>
>these noobs who slim seems to be worried about melting their computers,
>will STILL HAVE ACCESS to those options POST setup.
>
>so whats the difference? is it really THAT important to keep them out
>of the options at setup at the cost of not giving the option to anyone
>with a brain in their head? even a noob can figure out to "stay out"
>if an option is displayed as such.
>
I'm coming into this thread late. I have to agree with the majority of concerns here.

I hate the automatic rescans that SC used to do when installing a new version. I can't think of any other decent applications or consumer products that do automatic operations - ones that do really piss me off, and thus aren't decent ;-)

I think there's more chance of annoying new users with automatic stuff and making assumptions without providing alternative options.

I remember installing an updated version of SC a few years ago and got the wizard for the first time. Before I knew anything about it, SC had wiped my existing library and commenced an unnecessary rescan.

I don't agree with the arguments against at least providing an option to not do something that could potentially take a long time and not be correct afterwards, requiring the user to look through the options and perform a new scan.

There's no such thing as an idiot user who isn't going to understand a "don't scan until I say so" option.

A user requires a music source to start with. i.e. installed some other software to rip some CD's.

Last time I remember looking at installation instructions and the wizard, there were instructions about logging onto SqueezeNetwork to set up an account. This was presented as a mandatory step, and SC was optional. I think the opposite is true. A first-time user who just wants to play their CD's via a squeezebox has no need for SqueezeNetwork, which I find really cumbersome to set up compared to SC.

If you're looking at reducing setup pain, rework SqueezeNetwork. Allow an optional account to be set up through SqueezeCenter, post installation. Push SC settings up to SN, rather than the other way.

As I'm a power user, and now use SVN to keep SC up to date, I never see the wizard and thus don't really care for my own situation.

>compounding the issue is that a lot of what SC "intelligently" does is
>neither intelligent nor intuitive. the auto rescans
I agree with that...

>and VA logic, greatest hits logic,
Disagree with that. VA logic, greatest hits, etc are handled really well, compared to other applications that don't do anything (eg. iTunes). The default logic makes perfect sense for newbies and seasoned professionals, but I'm not against an option to turn off such logic if it doesn't work for them. This is not an option that should be in the wizard though.

>these are all things NO other app does.
Other apps do make assumptions, and for users that just rip CD's to new folders, the assumtions are very often the right choice. Other should apps do the same thing, or should.

>and the tcp/ip paradigm isn't obvious
Not sure what you are getting at here. TCP/IP is not something that should be explained in the wizard. Simple instructions for how to configure a SB to connect to SC over wireless LAN, but nothing should be required in the SC installation instructions.

Phil

Philip Meyer
2008-10-12, 13:03
Good post, that all sounds perfectly sensible.

The goal should be to avoid needing to rescan music library when changing options anyway.

Get rid of the wizard and make assumptions to set the configuration.

But I think upon trying to browse the music library to play something, detect that there's no music in the library, and inform the user that they need to perform a scan (any user interface - web UI, player UI, SBC).

I often see complaints (eg. choppy playback), which are due to a background scan that the user is not aware of.

The default skin web UI is better now, in that during a scan there is a progress indicator at the bottom of the page. But there's no indication on the player UI, which really matters - after all, that's where new users will be focussed - they want to try their new consumer product and are not so interested in the software.

Or at least tell the user that the scanner has started/is active, that it may take some time before they may be able to reliably browse and play music.

Phil

MrSinatra
2008-10-12, 15:03
why not put these varying suggstions in the bug reports?

peterw
2008-10-12, 16:37
> -- I think it'd probably be good to have "Typical" and "Advanced" modes
> for the web UI, at least the settings pages, as I think there are too
> many visible options right now for most users (do novices really need
> to see Alan's sync timing values?).[/color]

Please file an enhancement request. You'll have my full support.


Done. http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9702

MrSinatra
2008-10-12, 19:11
>the fact is the current version has options, as all programs of this
>type do. musicmatch, winamp, etc... all have lots of options.
>
>these noobs who slim seems to be worried about melting their computers,
>will STILL HAVE ACCESS to those options POST setup.
>
>so whats the difference? is it really THAT important to keep them out
>of the options at setup at the cost of not giving the option to anyone
>with a brain in their head? even a noob can figure out to "stay out"
>if an option is displayed as such.
>
I'm coming into this thread late. I have to agree with the majority of concerns here.

I hate the automatic rescans that SC used to do when installing a new version. I can't think of any other decent applications or consumer products that do automatic operations - ones that do really piss me off, and thus aren't decent ;-)

I think there's more chance of annoying new users with automatic stuff and making assumptions without providing alternative options.

I remember installing an updated version of SC a few years ago and got the wizard for the first time. Before I knew anything about it, SC had wiped my existing library and commenced an unnecessary rescan.

I don't agree with the arguments against at least providing an option to not do something that could potentially take a long time and not be correct afterwards, requiring the user to look through the options and perform a new scan.

There's no such thing as an idiot user who isn't going to understand a "don't scan until I say so" option.

A user requires a music source to start with. i.e. installed some other software to rip some CD's.

Last time I remember looking at installation instructions and the wizard, there were instructions about logging onto SqueezeNetwork to set up an account. This was presented as a mandatory step, and SC was optional. I think the opposite is true. A first-time user who just wants to play their CD's via a squeezebox has no need for SqueezeNetwork, which I find really cumbersome to set up compared to SC.

If you're looking at reducing setup pain, rework SqueezeNetwork. Allow an optional account to be set up through SqueezeCenter, post installation. Push SC settings up to SN, rather than the other way.

As I'm a power user, and now use SVN to keep SC up to date, I never see the wizard and thus don't really care for my own situation.

i basically agree with your analysis of new users.

this thread has conflated several different issues, but i think all users would agree that users should be able to opt out of automatic triggered [re]scans. bug 9687.

a lot of users here i think also agree that an option should exist for new installs to allow one access to some advanced settings, including the ability to opt out of auto scans. thats bug 9688. 9688 would also allow for some other options to be set, but allow you to leaave the first initial scan post install in place, so it'll scan with the other options set the way you want them.

what makes no sense to me is to deny this kind of functionality to users b/c slim seems to think some won't be able to handle it. i just don't buy that at all.



>compounding the issue is that a lot of what SC "intelligently" does is
>neither intelligent nor intuitive. the auto rescans
I agree with that...

>and VA logic, greatest hits logic,
Disagree with that. VA logic, greatest hits, etc are handled really well, compared to other applications that don't do anything (eg. iTunes). The default logic makes perfect sense for newbies and seasoned professionals, but I'm not against an option to turn off such logic if it doesn't work for them. This is not an option that should be in the wizard though.

i can totally live wth that. if being judicious with what options are in the wizard is needed to just get it done, np.

and as long as you don't oppose the option to turn off the other logics post install i'm cool with that too. my POV on that is that SC is the only app which has such logic[s], and a lot of users don't need it or want it b/c it probably slows down scans and regardless a lot of users have their collections competently organized in other apps with out it. why does SC require these logics to organize your tunes when other apps don't?

is slim really contending that ONLY their app does it properly?

besides, if we could turn off the rescans and logics, it will make it easier to design and test a new schema DB that will handle organizing appropriately with them, (as surely must be possible, since other apps can).



>these are all things NO other app does.
Other apps do make assumptions, and for users that just rip CD's to new folders, the assumtions are very often the right choice. Other should apps do the same thing, or should.

took me a minute to figure out that last line, (extra should).

i'm not sure making an assumption (such as?) is the same as the extremely aggressive and pro-active logics SC uses.

the auto rescans, the GH stuff, the VA stuff, i can't think of any other app doing anything similar.

whats more, i thinkthey simply mask poor DB design. with the new schema being worked on, i think it would be very helpful to be able to turn these off to see if a new schema could be designed that didn't need them.



>and the tcp/ip paradigm isn't obvious
Not sure what you are getting at here. TCP/IP is not something that should be explained in the wizard. Simple instructions for how to configure a SB to connect to SC over wireless LAN, but nothing should be required in the SC installation instructions.

Phil

all i'd really advocate here is some kind of sentence or two explaining its a network app, and if users want more information about howits all supposed to fit together, click the link to an appropriate wiki article.

erland
2008-10-12, 21:58
But I think upon trying to browse the music library to play something, detect that there's no music in the library, and inform the user that they need to perform a scan (any user interface - web UI, player UI, SBC).

Unless it already works this way, this sounds like a good idea. I think I've seen a message like this somewhere, but I'm not sure it was in SqueezeCenter.

mherger
2008-10-13, 00:02
> Get rid of the wizard and make assumptions to set the configuration.

That's very likely the way we'll be going soon.

> But I think upon trying to browse the music library to play something, detect that there's no music in the library, and inform the user that they need to perform a scan (any user interface - web UI, player UI, SBC).

My suggestion was to no longer display the wizard, if SC did find some source of music (iTunes, system default music folder, MusicIP). Instead it should show a welcome message telling the user what it had discovered, what was going on, and where he could change/fix it.

--

Michael

egd
2008-11-04, 16:15
Just to add some data to this thread: I talked a friend through a ReadyNAS firmware upgrade and SC module reinstallation about two days ago (NAS had previously had an older firmware and Slimserver) so that he could take advantage of the improved performance arising from SC and netgear's tweaking of their OS and the SC module -- no idea though whether the netgear download on the SC site includes any optimisations.

In any event, when he got to the SC Wizard and I told him to point SC to an empty folder as a proxy for the library until such time as he'd configured SC, or face the alternative of an unresponsive NAS and the better part of a week running at least three rescans till things were the way he liked them he said "how stupid is that, why not just let me configure things the way I'd like them and then give me the option of starting the scan when I'm done". FWIW he's not a technical guy, in fact he hardly ever spends time in front of a PC. I had done all the configuration work for him on the first Slimserver install and then provided the NAS to him and talked him through the networking config - all that he then had to do was add music and initiate a scan , so until going through this upgrade, apart from the fact he's running SC on a NAS, he was otherwise presumably the very user you're targeting as the plug and play demographic.