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TurnipFarmer
2008-09-18, 14:17
When listening to RadioTime on one of my radio stations is it normal not to Squobble to your last.fm account?

Which radio stations do?

andyg
2008-09-18, 14:29
If the radio station provides metadata in the format "xxxx - yyyy" it will scrobble as "Artist - Title".

TurnipFarmer
2008-09-19, 01:32
ahh the stations that I was listening to dont

Paul Webster
2008-09-19, 02:24
However, there have been suggestions from quite a few users that the way that last.fm handles such scrobbled internet radio plays is not very good (it goes into your last.fm profile in the same way as a regular personally selected CD track).
Last.fm have said that they are going to re-evaluate this - but in the meantime ... some SqueezeCenter users would like the option to suppress such scrobbling.

I'll go and raise it as a feature request if I can't find it in bugzilla.

TurnipFarmer
2008-09-21, 01:54
that was the main reason why I was asking so I know what to look out for. When Listening to online radio I disable my last.fm thing.

th00ht
2008-09-21, 03:54
... some SqueezeCenter users would like the option to suppress such scrobbling.

I'll go and raise it as a feature request if I can't find it in bugzilla.

Listened to RadioParadies for a day and now I have Sir Elton John <shudder> in my recent played music list !

Yes, radio stations should not be scrobbled in my opinion.

TurnipFarmer
2008-09-21, 05:43
Listened to RadioParadies for a day and now I have Sir Elton John <shudder> in my recent played music list !

Yes, radio stations should not be scrobbled in my opinion.

Elton John, lol! Thats the main reason as you pointed out that radio stations should not be scrobbled

Paul Webster
2008-09-21, 05:44
Yes, radio stations should not be scrobbled in my opinion.
Feel free to add a vote for
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9546

andyg
2008-09-21, 05:51
Radio should certainly be scrobbled, Last.fm just needs to fix their side of things.

Nonreality
2008-09-21, 05:57
Radio should certainly be scrobbled, Last.fm just needs to fix their side of things.Just curious why you would say that. The listener doesn't really have a say so in what is played so in a lot of cases it doesn't reflect their listening. Sometimes I play stations just for a backround noise while doing stuff around the house. It's just noise rather than something I want scrobbled. I think that it should be a choice as I know some would want it added so they can have some of the music in their playback from lastfm.

Paul Webster
2008-09-21, 06:38
Radio should certainly be scrobbled, Last.fm just needs to fix their side of things.

But in the meantime ... ?

autopilot
2008-09-21, 09:20
Radio should certainly be scrobbled

Why? It makes absolutly no sense to scrobble internet radio at all. What does a load of random tracks you might even not like reflect your musical taste? Completely goes against the whole point of Last.FM.

andyg
2008-09-21, 10:22
The reason is because the Last.fm API docs imply that you should scrobble everything, and mark different types of data as such:



The source of the track. Required, must be one of the following codes:

P
Chosen by the user (the most common value, unless you have a reason for choosing otherwise, use this).
R
Non-personalised broadcast (e.g. Shoutcast, BBC Radio 1).
E
Personalised recommendation except Last.fm (e.g. Pandora, Launchcast).
L
Last.fm (any mode). In this case, the 5-digit Last.fm recommendation key must be appended to this source ID to prove the validity of the submission (for example, "o[0]=L1b48a").
U
Source unknown.


Why would they define a special 'R' code for radio if they didn't intend for it to be scrobbled? Isn't the point of scrobbling to log *everything* you play? What's done with that data later is a separate issue in my opinion.

Paul Webster
2008-09-21, 11:03
As an example - try playing RadioInferno (you can find it via SHOUTcast or you can go direct to http://http://www.radioinferno.org/inferno.radio.m3u )

Let a few songs play and then examine your last.fm profile.

I am sure you will see some bad names for tracks.

Examples from last few songs

Florin Peste - Iubeste-ma www.RadioInferno.Org
Florinel & Alexx & Andrei - Tata E Mai Norocos www.RadioInferno.Org
Nicolae Guta - Nemuritorul By RadioInferno.Org

It is bad data that should not be stored - and I am sure I can find some others than generate bad artist names (see my post on last.fm forum for some examples).

It can generate bad data for last.fm database and for your profile.
Last.fm need to do something about it - but SqueezeCenter is much easier to change.

andyg
2008-09-21, 11:16
I explained the artist/track parsing earlier, if a station intentionally sends bad data there isn't much we can do.

Paul Webster
2008-09-21, 11:18
I explained the artist/track parsing earlier, if a station intentionally sends bad data there isn't much we can do.

But there is - you could make it optional to submit.
Then users who feel strongly about it could turn off the whole facility until last.fm stop making type R submissions stick in the profile.

andyg
2008-09-21, 11:20
Sigh, this shouldn't even be an issue. Maybe I will add a preference. :(

Paul Webster
2008-09-21, 11:33
I agree entirely - but Slim is just the middleman in this case and there are multiple imperfections on either side of it (the broadcaster and last.fm).

I think that for those that play a lot from internet radio stations (as opposed to internet radio services) there is all sorts of rubbish that ends up in profiles.
I gave an example in the last.fm forum - I happened across an advert for "Flexo-Factor" on one of the internet radio stations that I tuned in to.

3 weeks ago it had
637 plays (198 listeners)
Now it has
1,538 plays (339 listeners)
http://www.last.fm/music/Flexo+Factor/_/Flexo+Factor
Basically it is the GIGO principle - but the annoying part is that the garbage pollutes profiles.

You might have seen from a similar thread a few weeks ago - I hacked my SqueezeCenter so that internet radio is not scrobbled - but I would welcome an official patch.

marksw
2008-09-21, 13:27
Radio should certainly be scrobbled, Last.fm just needs to fix their side of things.

I'm not convinced that it should - or certainly not for those of us that use last.fm to make reasonable suggestions as to what else we may like.

However, the ability to 'love' a radio track is good.... assuming loved tracks help last.fm predict what else you may like.

autopilot
2008-09-22, 01:41
Isn't the point of scrobbling to log *everything* you play?


NO!!! thats the whole point!

Or put another way - YES - but i dont 'play' the tracks on an internet radio stations - the station chooses and 'plays' them. Many of which i am not a great fan of and never want to hear again. Scobbling is about music you CHOOSE from your collection. If you CHOOSE music you must like it.

Andy, it dont know if you are an actual last.FM user too, but basically Last.FM is all about discovering new music you might like based on what it knows you already like. It does this by scrobbling tracks you choose from your selection - it's like this; if i have bought some music, ripped it and now listen to it, thats a good indication i like that track/artist! Thats what it's about, not just a pointless log of my listening history. How on earth can scrobbing hundreds of random tracks and adverts build a profile of the music i like?! It might just about get close to the genre i like, but never specify tracks and artists, and styles within those genres.

I would still like the option to 'love' a track while listening to internet radio though.

Andy, all we are asking for is option to disable none 'P' scrobbling. I realise this is really Last.FM's problem, but it would be great if you could help work around this until Last.FM wake up. And many thanks for all your hard work in the area.

Siduhe
2008-09-22, 01:49
As I've said before, I'd also like the option to disable scrobbling from radio - but for those who feel that strongly about it, there's a simple solution. Just promote the Last.fm Audioscrobbler item to the top level menu and set it to "do not scrobble" when you start up the radio. We do this in our household every time we listen to music as we have two Last.fm accounts, and it's suprising how easily you get used to it.

However, this solution only works for <SB3 and Boom users, not for Duet users (the "add ability to change Last.fm accounts from Controller" request is currently scheduled for 7.3 I think).

andyg
2008-09-23, 10:45
I've added a preference to disable scrobbling of radio tracks to 7.2.1. Note that "Now Playing" data is still sent to Last.fm but this does not affect your profile. If you love a radio track, it will be loved and scrobbled normally.

This preference also applies to music services where you don't select all the tracks: Pandora, Slacker, Rhapsody Radio.

Paul Webster
2008-09-23, 12:36
Thanks Andy.

autopilot
2008-09-23, 12:47
I've added a preference to disable scrobbling of radio tracks to 7.2.1. Note that "Now Playing" data is still sent to Last.fm but this does not affect your profile. If you love a radio track, it will be loved and scrobbled normally.

This preference also applies to music services where you don't select all the tracks: Pandora, Slacker, Rhapsody Radio.

Andy, you are a star :)

jo-wie
2008-09-27, 01:55
I've added a preference to disable scrobbling of radio tracks to 7.2.1.

Thank you Andy. Open ears for the community, that's what I like here.

Will you also enable this option in Squeezenetwork in the near future?

jo-wie

adhawkins
2008-10-05, 08:54
The trouble now appears that I can't listen to Last.FM stations if I tell it not to scrobble radio stations.

I get a message on the Squeezebox saying "To use Last.fm Radio, you must select a Last.fm account to use on this player"

Andy

adhawkins
2008-10-05, 09:02
Hmmm...even with the setting turned off now I *still* can't use Last.fm radio stations.

Pretty sure I've got it set up correctly, as if I play something from my library, it is scrobbled.

Any ideas?

Andy

Siduhe
2008-10-05, 10:22
You may need to reauthorise your account to use Last.fm - have a look in settings. I had to re-enter my account details after changing the radio scrobbling settings.

adhawkins
2008-10-06, 01:26
I don't think so. It's still scrobbling correctly, just won't let me play any of the radio streams.

The server, SqueezeNetwork *and* the player are all configured to use Last.fm. My last.fm account also allows the SlimServer to scrobble (and when I play music from my own library it is being scrobbled correctly).

Any ideas?

Andy

adhawkins
2008-10-06, 06:52
Aha. Was clicking around and got the message 'Your Squeezenetwork account is not authorised to use last.fm' (or similar). Found there was one last step that I hadn't done.

Does it have to be this complicated to configure? :)

All appears to be working now though, my bad.

Cheers

Andy

adhawkins
2008-10-06, 07:30
Hmm...getting very confused now.

I'm listening to 'My Recommendations' via Last.fm on SoftSqueeze. My server is set to 'No, do not scrobble Internet Radio tracks', but tracks that are being played are still appearing in my library on Last.fm.

Are the last.fm stations not classed as Internet Radio, or am I doing something wrong?

Andy

Siduhe
2008-10-06, 07:44
Last.fm comes under Music Services, rather than Internet Radio, so it's working as intended. I just tend to skip the recommendations I don't like so they don't scrobble to my account.

adhawkins
2008-10-06, 07:54
Ah.

Any chance this could be extended? As far as I'm concerned, the stuff sent by last.fm is a radio station (in that I don't get to choose which specific tracks I'm listening to) and hence shouldn't be scrobbled.

Comments?

Andy

andyg
2008-10-06, 08:16
Ah.

Any chance this could be extended? As far as I'm concerned, the stuff sent by last.fm is a radio station (in that I don't get to choose which specific tracks I'm listening to) and hence shouldn't be scrobbled.

Comments?

Andy

I knew this would come up... does Last.fm's own player let you disable scrobbling of Last.fm Radio tracks? I don't think it does. So I'm not sure we should either. Certainly they handle tracks with source of 'L' properly?!

adhawkins
2008-10-06, 08:22
I presume the source of 'L' means it's come from Last.fm? Does that mean that these tracks aren't then used for recommendations?

If that's the case, then I'm happy for them to be added to my library. What I'm trying to avoid is being 'Recommended' something that I don't particularly like, then being given recommendations based on this just because it's been added to my library.

Does that make sense?

Andy

autopilot
2008-10-06, 08:25
I knew this would come up... does Last.fm's own player let you disable scrobbling of Last.fm Radio tracks? I don't think it does. So I'm not sure we should either. Certainly they handle tracks with source of 'L' properly?!

I dont think it does scrobble it's own tracks (but you can lave and ban them), that would be completely silly and totally contradict the whole point of Last.FM and what it sets out to achieve.

adhawkins
2008-10-06, 09:02
Hi,

In article <autopilot.3gv83z1223307001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>,
autopilot<autopilot.3gv83z1223307001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
> that would be completely silly and totally contradict the whole
> point of Last.FM and what it sets out to achieve.

That's kind of my thinking too. I understand last.fm to be building up a
list of my musical taste. If it does that based on stuff I haven't
personally chosen then it's a little off base I think.

Andy

Siduhe
2008-10-06, 17:16
As I understand it, what Last.fm expects you to do when it serves up music to you (as opposed to you scrobbling to it) is one of listen/skip/love or ban - telling it what you think of the music it's suggested for you (which it uses to refine those suggestions further via collaborative filtering).

If you skip before the track has reached the submission point (halfway through the track) it will not be scrobbled to your profile. The more you do this, the better the recommendations should get. You can also manage your recommendations via http://www.last.fm/home/recs (although I don't much care for the new system of adding/deleting from My Library - the old slider style "a bit more like this" was much better IMHO).

autopilot
2008-10-07, 01:15
As I understand it, what Last.fm expects you to do when it serves up music to you (as opposed to you scrobbling to it) is one of listen/skip/love or ban - telling it what you think of the music it's suggested for you (which it uses to refine those suggestions further via collaborative filtering).

If you skip before the track has reached the submission point (halfway through the track) it will not be scrobbled to your profile. The more you do this, the better the recommendations should get. You can also manage your recommendations via http://www.last.fm/home/recs (although I don't much care for the new system of adding/deleting from My Library - the old slider style "a bit more like this" was much better IMHO).

I think people are getting muddled. Couple of points here...

a) If that's what Last.FM expected you to do, i would not use the service. Most of the time i like to sit back and enjoy the music - not have to constantly interact with every track. And sometimes i would be happy to hear the whole track, even if im not that keen on it and dont want to hear it again (i owe that to myself and the artist). Sure, if a track that i really like came on i will 'love' it, and like wise if its really of the mark then i might skip it. But this does not mean i should have to have the Controller in my hand and constantly think and interact.

b) The recommendation system is not about Scrobbling per-say - it is the result of your scrobbling. - people need to understand the difference and separate the two. Scobbling is music you chose, then the recommendation system kicks in which you can tweak. But scrobbling recommendations themselves its like some kind of strange feedback loop, constantly telling itself that you absolutely do like what it say you do.

c) When you listen to a track without skipping, this does not mean you like it - it means that don't particularly dislike it. This is a clear logical difference.

Nonreality
2008-10-07, 02:11
I think people are getting muddled. Couple of points here...

a) If that's what Last.FM expected you to do, i would not use the service. Most of the time i like to sit back and enjoy the music - not have to constantly interact with every track. And sometimes i would be happy to hear the whole track, even if im not that keen on it and dont want to hear it again (i owe that to myself and the artist). Sure, if a track that i really like came on i will 'love' it, and like wise if its really of the mark then i might skip it. But this does not mean i should have to have the Controller in my hand and constantly think and interact.

b) The recommendation system is not about Scrobbling per-say - it is the result of your scrobbling. - people need to understand the difference and separate the two. Scobbling is music you chose, then the recommendation system kicks in which you can tweak. But scrobbling recommendations themselves its like some kind of strange feedback loop, constantly telling itself that you absolutely do like what it say you do.

c) When you listen to a track without skipping, this does not mean you like it - it means that don't particularly dislike it. This is a clear logical difference.

I agree, I don't want the responsibility of all that. I just play my music and hope it all averages out. It seems to work well. I don't expect it to be perfect. I think I have said that I didn't like something once or twice. Same with Pandora. It all seems to average out just fine. I don't want a service that I have to have my hand on the remote all the time. That is too much work. :)

Siduhe
2008-10-07, 02:56
I think people are getting muddled. Couple of points here...

Not so much muddled as maybe my original post wasn't clear. I very much take your point about general listening to Last.fm - no way I would want the remote in my hand for that, I prefer just to listen to the music. However, I've already given some input to Last.fm (Similar Artist, Tag or specific station) in that scenario. I was just referring to Recommendations, and that certainly used to be treated a bit differently. In particular, you could adjust your recommendations to be biased more towards unknown artists, or "loved" artists etc and plays of Recommendations/Recommended Users used to have quite a significant impact on your neighbours. However, having looked at the Last.fm blog, I'm not clear that any of this has survived in the latest version (July 2008) and particularly the new recommendation engine, which now serves up almost instant recommendations based on your recent listening.

I also take your point that Recommendations shouldn't properly be scrobbled, however the original Last.fm client and the playwithinweb feature both do this, so it looks like expected behaviour at the Last.fm end.

autopilot
2008-10-28, 03:11
The latest Sonos update has come out and now supports Last.FM. It states in their FAQ...



...Sonos does not scrobble tracks from Radio or Sirius Internet Radio...


So either they have been reading these forums or it's obvious that internet radio should be excluded.