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tygar
2008-09-11, 21:13
I have been a long-time customer and evangelist for SlimDevices/Logitech -- I've bought at least 8 SlimDevices products and currently use a Transporter as my main listening device.

Today I "upgraded" to SqueezeCenter 7.2 after having used successfully used various SlimServer 6.5 versions. And, like many, many Transporter users on these boards, my Transporter promptly died -- freezing up when it tried to play any song.

And thus, I began my hunt for problems. I spent several hours tracking things -- not thinking that SlimDevices would have released a firmware upgrade that kills their high-end product.

It was very frustrating -- I found a link suggesting I force a xilinx reprogramming step. That did nothing.

Finally, I found a post suggesting a factory reset. It didn't tell how to do it that. Here is how. With your first hand, hold your Transporter. With your second hand, plug in the Transporter. With your third hand (apparently, this reprogramming system was not designed for mere two-handed humans to actually use) hold down the ADD button on the remote.

That fixed the problem. But I was angry. I paid $2000 for SlimDevice/Logitech's top-of-the-line product, and I just had to waste three hours of my life because SlimDevices/Logitech didn't bother to warn me that the firmware upgrade would kill my system.

Now if my situation were unique, perhaps I could more easily forgive SlimDevices/Logitech. But I see that many Transporter owners have similar problems. I don't see why SlimDevices/Logitech isn't warning owners. It shouldn't be the case that one needs to hunt down in the forum just to perform an upgrade operation.

I am sure that in their own good time, SlimDevices/Logitech will fix the bug -- but given that forum posts suggest it has been present for several months, perhaps that fix will come sometime in 2009 or 2010. In the meanwhile, SlimDevices/Logitech should warn Transporter users -- on the download page -- about this problem. There is no reason for a company to treat its most avid users with particular scorn.

I hope that SlimDevices/Logitech takes this advice to heart, because I would like to evangelize for the company's products in the future as well.

Doug Tygar
Professor of Computer Science
UC Berkeley

MrSinatra
2008-09-11, 21:24
i only owned one sb2 for a long time, and i learned long ago that occassionally for whatever reason after a FW upgrade, you have to cycle power or unplug, replug, or even factory reset.

i agree, its annoying. but with that much gear, you're lucky this is the first you ever had to do it.

i think the real Q is, how much will u have to do it going forward?

SuperQ
2008-09-11, 23:20
Firmware upgrades don't normally "kill your system" I've done dozens of firmware upgrades on 10+ squeezeboxes without a "kill your system" problem.

ModelCitizen
2008-09-11, 23:49
This is a very common problem for the Transporter and this upgrade. I agree entirely with the poster. There should be some obvious warning (and help) with this software/firmware upgrade for Transporter users.

MC

peter
2008-09-12, 00:44
ModelCitizen wrote:
> This is a very common problem for the Transporter and this upgrade. I
> agree entirely with the poster. There should be some obvious warning
> (and help) with the for Transporter users with this software/firmware
> upgrade.
>
Agreed, I suggest:

WARNING: This upgrade may destroy your $2000 Transporter and throw you
into fits of rage, please upgrade now!

Regards,
Peter

Howard Passman
2008-09-12, 02:10
...and it's this type of thread that keeps me from a Transporter. Years ago, almost 20 now, I spent the same amount on a CD player. Obviously, my CD player doesn't have the same level of software complexity, but so far I have yet to do anything but turn it on and enjoy what comes out.

I have a lot of fun and enjoyment with my Duets and Boom, but honestly, if I had never had to turn to a forum for help, I wouldn't have missed it. Tech support is like most other tech supports. Your experience is gonna depend on who you get and the problem at hand. However, why should we need tech support right off the bat?

Anyway, I know these are complicated devices. When there's an issue it's not like the old days. Nothing leaks, smells, burns, quits glowing, smokes, pops, sparks....especially firmware or software. However, I do think more could be done to produce a product that doesn't require the amount of coddling that these types of devices do. I wonder if anyone has ever bought a Slim device and hasn't called tech support or joined this forum?

Oh, and don't get me started on the d@@* lack of very simple accessories or spare parts. That is really getting my goat.

Howard

ModelCitizen
2008-09-12, 03:07
In defence of the Transporter I must say that I've had mine since they were first released and the only problem I have ever had with it was installing firmware 40. Even then a quick revert to the previous version cured it.

The pure and alive sound of the device is entirely worth the (in Audiophile terms low) price. One a decent hifi it knocks the (in comparison flat and uninvolving) sound of the SB3 and Receiver into a cocked hat.

All that is required is a note on the 7.2 installation wizard stating something like:

"A few uses have experienced a problem with a lack of audio output once firmware 40 (or above) is installed. To cure the problem power cycle the Transporter whilst holding down the plus button on the remote."

BTW. If SlimDevices could have cured it I am sure they would have. As I remember they could not reproduce the problem.

MC

funkstar
2008-09-12, 03:37
Finally, I found a post suggesting a factory reset. It didn't tell how to do it that. Here is how. With your first hand, hold your Transporter. With your second hand, plug in the Transporter. With your third hand (apparently, this reprogramming system was not designed for mere two-handed humans to actually use) hold down the ADD button on the remote.
Or you could just pull the power cable from the wall. The wall doesn't need to be held when you plug it back in.

Robin Bowes
2008-09-12, 03:48
funkstar wrote:
> tygar;339512 Wrote:
>> Finally, I found a post suggesting a factory reset. It didn't tell how
>> to do it that. Here is how. With your first hand, hold your
>> Transporter. With your second hand, plug in the Transporter. With
>> your third hand (apparently, this reprogramming system was not designed
>> for mere two-handed humans to actually use) hold down the ADD button on
>> the remote.
> Or you could just pull the power cable from the wall. The wall doesn't
> need to be held when you plug it back in.

That's an engineering solution. This guy is a Computer Scientist - you
can't expect him to think of that. :)

R.

funkstar
2008-09-12, 03:53
That's an engineering solution. This guy is a Computer Scientist - you
can't expect him to think of that. :)

R.
Oops! My bad. Could that be why i flunked CS? :)

ModelCitizen
2008-09-12, 03:56
I'm obviously super-human 'cos I can do it with only one hand.

MC

Ron Olsen
2008-09-12, 04:05
I'm sorry to hear that some users have experienced problems with their transporter upgrade to 7.2.

I'm happy to say that I had no problems; the tranporter firmware upgrade worked first time around.

I'm running SqueezeCenter version 7.2-22900 on a Gentoo Linux system and transporter firmware version 62.

My upgrade was from 7.1; I had previously upgraded to 7.0.

Perhaps those who are experiencing problems are upgrading from 6.5 to 7.2, without having previously upgraded to 7.0 or 7.1?

GoCubs
2008-09-12, 04:27
Likewise I did not have any problems with any of my equip (SB/SB2s/SB3/Transporter/Boom) upgrading from 7.1 to 7.2. Being part of the beta program this also included many pre-release firmware upgrades for 7.2.

Slim always stands behind their product with outstanding support in the event something should go wrong.

Thanks
-Greg

radish
2008-09-12, 05:55
Mine did it when I first upgraded to (I think) 7.2, this would have been a nightly so it was a while ago. Didn't have time to diagnose when it happened so I had to replace it with a spare SBR for a party I was having. Somewhat annoying! Anyway, it hasn't happened since and the fix is pretty simple once you know it. I agree though that a warning would be a nice idea.

amcluesent
2008-09-12, 10:26
The TP is software and hardware system. CompSci can yet provide provably correct solutions for a system of systems. I don't recall my TP bombing out that badly; who hasn't had to take the battery out their phone, reboot Windows, hard-reset iPods...

iPhone
2008-09-12, 11:31
I have been a long-time customer and evangelist for SlimDevices/Logitech -- I've bought at least 8 SlimDevices products and currently use a Transporter as my main listening device.

Today I "upgraded" to SqueezeCenter 7.2 after having used successfully used various SlimServer 6.5 versions. And, like many, many Transporter users on these boards, my Transporter promptly died -- freezing up when it tried to play any song.

And thus, I began my hunt for problems. I spent several hours tracking things -- not thinking that SlimDevices would have released a firmware upgrade that kills their high-end product.

It was very frustrating -- I found a link suggesting I force a xilinx reprogramming step. That did nothing.

Finally, I found a post suggesting a factory reset. It didn't tell how to do it that. Here is how. With your first hand, hold your Transporter. With your second hand, plug in the Transporter. With your third hand (apparently, this reprogramming system was not designed for mere two-handed humans to actually use) hold down the ADD button on the remote.

That fixed the problem. But I was angry. I paid $2000 for SlimDevice/Logitech's top-of-the-line product, and I just had to waste three hours of my life because SlimDevices/Logitech didn't bother to warn me that the firmware upgrade would kill my system.

Now if my situation were unique, perhaps I could more easily forgive SlimDevices/Logitech. But I see that many Transporter owners have similar problems. I don't see why SlimDevices/Logitech isn't warning owners. It shouldn't be the case that one needs to hunt down in the forum just to perform an upgrade operation.

I am sure that in their own good time, SlimDevices/Logitech will fix the bug -- but given that forum posts suggest it has been present for several months, perhaps that fix will come sometime in 2009 or 2010. In the meanwhile, SlimDevices/Logitech should warn Transporter users -- on the download page -- about this problem. There is no reason for a company to treat its most avid users with particular scorn.

I hope that SlimDevices/Logitech takes this advice to heart, because I would like to evangelize for the company's products in the future as well.

Doug Tygar
Professor of Computer Science
UC Berkeley

I understand your frustration. It is an audiophile component and it should work. And as you have pointed out, it has served you well. Now that it has had a firmware upgrade it will serve you better. Slim Devices didn't release a FW upgrades that "kills" its product because as you have said your TP is working. But with any firmware upgrade of any product, there is the chance that something will hang or go wrong. Sometimes it is even required that one does a reset after certain upgrades (most units do this automatically, but some don't and some hang). Don't tell me that you have never had to restart a PC after an update, upgrade, or program removal.

First question, just how was Slim Devices going to warn or contact ALL Transporter owners prior to upgrade? And since a simple factory reset is all that is needed to fix the few TPs that "hang" during the firmware upgrade, what is the big deal?

Professor did you need a flowchart? The second paragraph of the TP troubleshooting guide tells you how to do a factory reset. Why did that take 3 hours? A simple call or Email to Tech Support would have had it solved in much less time. A quick search of the Forums would have had you listening to music before Tech Support even picked up your call. It appears that you only came to this resource to complain after the fact.

One of the beautiful things about the Transporter is the fact that it can be improved without having to send it back to the factory or take it to a dealer because it can have its firmware upgraded online. One example is 88.2 KHz files can now be played because of a simple download.

Relax, listen to some music, and search the Forums “Before” doing future SC or Firmware upgrades.

tygar
2008-09-12, 14:41
First question, just how was Slim Devices going to warn or contact ALL Transporter owners prior to upgrade?

How to warn owners? With a simple, single-sentence warning message on the download page. Given the number of owners who have reported this problem, it seems it could save a lot of frustration and wasted time. And to borrow your words, "what's the big deal" about adding a sentence about a problem that many owners have faced?

You are right. It appears Logitech expects all of its users search the forums before performing an update (although, as I pointed out above, some forum posts give apparently incorrect information, such as advice to perform a xilinx reset). Note that searching the SlimDevices wiki provides no mention of the bug.

You are right. I needed a flowchart. (What a pity there wasn't one linked from the download page.) For some reason, it was not obvious to me that when an upgrade causes my device to spontaneously fail, I should try power-cycling the device while holding down the ADD button on the remote.

You are right. It should have worked.

iPhone
2008-09-12, 21:24
For some reason, it was not obvious to me that when an upgrade causes my device to spontaneously fail, I should try power-cycling the device while holding down the ADD button on the remote.

You are right. It should have worked.

You keep saying your Transporter failed. It did not fail. If it failed it would be in the shop or back to Slim Devices. It hung after a firmware download that requires the TP to reboot. This happens all the time with all kinds of electronic equipment. Which in turn required you (the human owner/operator) to do a manual reboot by factory reset.

ModelCitizen
2008-09-12, 23:55
This happens all the time with all kinds of electronic equipment.
No it doesn't, not with my stuff anyway. I can't remember ever having to perform a factory reset on any other piece if equipment I own. The Transporter is an expensive piece of audiophile kit, perhaps attracting a less technically savvy group of people than the original SD products (OP excepting). The bug was very well known by SD, and Sean in particular (there was a huge thread in the audiophile forum about it that was contributed to over a long period of time). The factory reset cure was not documented (wiki, manual or otherwise), yet SD saw fit to release a Transporter firmware upgrade with a full software release in the full knowledge that it would cause a reasonable number of Transporters to stop making any sound!

The omission of some sort of warning in the set up wizard, on the download page or even in the change notes was an oversight. There is no doubt about it at all.

MC

Goodsounds
2008-09-12, 23:58
I think the professor's comments deserve some serious review and soul searching.

Do you?

pfarrell
2008-09-13, 00:04
ModelCitizen wrote:
> The factory reset cure was not documented (wiki, manual or otherwise)

You mean like this?
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Hardware_Reset_commands


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

ModelCitizen
2008-09-13, 01:41
ModelCitizen wrote:
The factory reset cure was not documented (wiki, manual or otherwise)
You mean like this?
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Hardware_Reset_commands

Probably should let this lie as it's a very minor, niggling and pedantic point within this thread and increases noise to signal ratio but....
try finding the page. I've just searched for Factory Reset and Factory Reset Transporter and although it's possible to find mentions of factory reset (there is no page titled Factory Reset) it takes an awful lot of trawling before you find the page that actually tells you how to so it.

Anyway, how long is it supposed to take a person who listens to music on a device to work out that it needs a factory reset so he can sit down and listen to music again?

MC

mudlark
2008-09-13, 01:53
I wish people would try to understand that much technology is at the forefront of the possible due to pressure from the very people who complain if things go wrong.

Just as an example I recently spent three hours trying to find out how to reset and setup a modem/router. The security set up of the WAP facility wasn't obvious or explained in the manual. This task while very easy for someone familiar with the router involved wasn't in any way possible for the typical consumer. This is a "simple" modem router....

I also had a real problem with a similar piece of equipment because I didn't have the login password details of the web based gui. The punter thought i was some kind of wizard. I had tried several long calls to the help desk of the company concerned with little useful information picked up.

has anyone here had a windows Xp machine fail and had to do a repair install? Yes folks it can take hours to rebuild your system and if you do it in the wrong way a lovely virus appears which means you have to start again. As for a simple way of finding your old settings, well forget it. Yes I know you should back up every second moment, but who does in the real world.

My squeezebox experience has been completely different. As a fiddler i have broken my system many times, but ALWAYS someone has come to my aid even when my performance has been less than helpful.

I have just tried to use a virus scanner on my linux machine. (Avast it is very good!) Previously I had no protection at all except the built in stuff and a firewall. The result...... one download infected file and system files all clear...

To all those complainers I would say one thing. Calm down, explain your problem in a concise and clear fashion and enjoy the bloody thing.

mudlark
2008-09-13, 01:58
Probably should let this lie as it's a very minor, niggling and pedantic point within this thread and increases noise to signal ratio but....
try finding the page. I've just searched for Factory Reset and Factory Reset Transporter and although it's possible to find mentions of factory reset (there is no page titled Factory Reset) it takes an awful lot of trawling before you find the page that actually tells you how to so it.

Anyway, how long is it supposed to take a person who listens to music on a device to work out that it needs a factory reset so he can sit down and listen to music again?

MC

I have just tried a "reset transporter" search in the wiki and got there first time...

ccjj
2008-09-13, 03:14
I had the same problem for 3 weeks already and had install/uninstall SC7.1, 7.2 and back to 7.0... again and again... send an email to Slimdevices via their web site. Got an answer back a few days later trying to verify my hardware config. I replied to them everything and got another email asking me to test to see if the internet radio is working or not.... just replied to them.

then I found this thread and the factory reset trick. It works!

I can live with a little upgrade problem and a hardware reset seems reasonable for any major upgrade but I am surprised the slimdevices support didn't know the problem and the solution! She could have sloved my problem 2 weeks earlier!

Nonreality
2008-09-13, 03:40
I had the same problem for 3 weeks already and had install/uninstall SC7.1, 7.2 and back to 7.0... again and again... send an email to Slimdevices via their web site. Got an answer back a few days later trying to verify my hardware config. I replied to them everything and got another email asking me to test to see if the internet radio is working or not.... just replied to them.

then I found this thread and the factory reset trick. It works!

I can live with a little upgrade problem and a hardware reset seems reasonable for any major upgrade but I am surprised the slimdevices support didn't know the problem and the solution! She could have sloved my problem 2 weeks earlier!
Try calling them, it's fast,easy and I'm sure they could have solved it a lot faster than 3 weeks.

pfarrell
2008-09-13, 10:17
ModelCitizen wrote:
> try finding the page.

Its a wiki, feel free to edit it, add new pages, etc.
Just pointing out that you claimed it was not in the wiki, and it was.
Hard to find, perhaps.

> Anyway, how long is it supposed to take a person who listens to music
> on a device to work out that it needs a factory reset so he can sit
> down and listen to music again?

That is a bigger question. The transporter is a computer. As is the
Controller, and of course the thing running SqueezeCenter.

They are not like a turntable, where you turn it on, put the arm over
the record and music appears.

Sometimes computers need a wack on the side of their head. It happens.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

dsdreamer
2008-09-13, 14:17
The transporter is a computer. As is the
Controller, and of course the thing running SqueezeCenter.

They are not like a turntable, where you turn it on, put the arm over
the record and music appears.

The original poster, in my opinion, had reasonable expectations. I know that these things are computers and highly complex, but ideally much of that complexity would be hidden from the user and things such as upgrades would go smoothly, without ever causing panic among customers that they may have 'bricked' their expensive transporter h/w. I know that there are many things that make this close to impossible to fully achieve. But once a company has decided it is not their ambition to strive for that goal, you can be very sure the ideal won't be even approximately achieved, and that if the market offers an alternative that seems to offer appliance-like simplicity and reliability -- good old free market economics will punish the non-achiever.

Don't get me wrong, I am fan of Slim Devices and what they do and I do still recommend them to friends. But if the *perception* is that the experience of these wonderful products is likely to spoiled by the quality of the software, their success will be limited. So, if a professor of computer science at Cal feels that the experience he had is not recommendable to others, don't just condescendingly dismiss it. Suffice to say, if I were in a QA or marketing role at SD, I would make sure his voice was heard!

--dsdreamer

peter
2008-09-18, 10:39
tygar wrote:
> You are right. It appears Logitech expects all of its users search the
> forums before performing an update (although, as I pointed out above,
> some forum posts give apparently incorrect information, such as advice
> to perform a xilinx reset). Note that searching the SlimDevices wiki
> provides no mention of the bug.
>


It's a wiki, you can add it yourself and help others.

TIA,
Peter

peter
2008-09-18, 10:47
dsdreamer wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I am fan of Slim Devices and what they do and I do
> still recommend them to friends. But if the *perception* is that the
> experience of these wonderful products is likely to spoiled by the
> quality of the software, their success will be limited. So, if a
> professor of computer science at Cal feels that the experience he had
> is not recommendable to others, don't just condescendingly dismiss it.
> Suffice to say, if I were in a QA or marketing role at SD, I would make
> sure his voice was heard!
>

I know some CS professors that are pretty clumsy with modern networking
gear. Of course, every bad experience should be taken seriously by SD.
I'm quite surprised that support didn't recognize this if it's such a
common problem. OTOH, if all else fails a factory reset *is* the
standard procedure.

I was a little bit irritated to find out that in order to switch my
receiver from wireless to wired I needed to 'factory reset' my
controller and enter the bloody WPA key again. At least that was well
documented.

Regards,
Peter

ModelCitizen
2008-09-18, 12:51
ModelCitizen wrote:
> try finding the page.
Its a wiki, feel free to edit it, add new pages, etc.
Just pointing out that you claimed it was not in the wiki, and it was.
Hard to find, perhaps.
If you can't find the info it might as well not exist.
Edit the wiki? It's not the consumers job to provide product information, it's the manufacturers.

A wiki is generally a terrible way of presenting information. The SlimDevices wiki is witness to this. I can never find the exact information I want quickly. The search is next to useless.

Before anyone jumps in... wikipedia works only because Google exists and has prioritised/indexed it.

MC

radish
2008-09-18, 13:19
Before anyone jumps in... wikipedia works only because Google exists and has prioritised/indexed it.


The same holds true for the entire WWW - take away the search engines and it's impossible to find anything (as those of us who've been around a while can remember). But that doesn't detract from the usefulness of the site providing the information in the first place.

Interestingly I just googled "reset transporter" and guess which wiki page came up as the second hit? I guess google works here too :)

ModelCitizen
2008-09-18, 13:46
Interestingly I just googled "reset transporter" and guess which wiki page came up as the second hit? I guess google works here too :)

Damn

MC
______

mvalera
2008-09-18, 17:28
Ya, google has us fuully indexed... here's a tip too. Use this in the Google search window to restrict your search to us:

"[search keywords & phrases] site:slimdevices.com"

amcluesent
2008-09-18, 23:59
>It's not the consumers job to provide product information, it's the manufacturers.<

No supplier can possibly provide information about all the possible in-use combinations for their products. The community provides a very useful service in adding that.

tygar
2008-09-19, 13:35
Thanks for the animated discussion in response to my original post.

A few points to take home:

(a) Some have implied that I am arguing against upgrades, or insisting that upgrades be 100% error free. I am not suggesting that at all. However, given the widespread frequency of this problem, I am suggesting that putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

(b) Some have suggested that resetting the device is the "obvious" answer. I don't think these users have actually encountered the problem. Physically power cycling the Transporter "apparently" cures the problem, only to have it recur when one tries to play another file. Since most consumer products reset when fully power cycled (and the Transporter, when afflicted with the "upgrade of death" seems to reset), this is a frustrating problem to face as an end-user. Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

(c) Some have suggested that searching in the forums is a reasonable solution. But, as I pointed out in my original post, the first hits I got when I searched the forums for the solution had incorrect information. Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

(d) Some have suggested that searching the Wiki is the obvious solution. I searched under combinations of terms such as Transporter, hangs, 7.2, etc and didn't find a page describing this widespread bug. It actually took me a while to realize that the Transporter didn't reset when the power was cycled. (One good point is that anyone could change the Wiki. However, I notice that a Logitech employee posted to this thread, and the Wiki remains unchanged.) Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

(e) Some have suggested I should have called or written to SlimDevices technical support for advice. However, I note that ccjj did exactly this and did not get correct advice (over a period of two weeks). Since the Transport upgrade bug is a widely reported bug, this suggests to me that SlimDevices support was also not able to navigate their own information sources. So, even if you completely reject my arguments, how about making the materials useful for SlimDevices support? Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

(f) Some have suggested that I might be a dimwitted or technically inept. Well, I have been a tenured computer science professor at CMU and now at UC Berkeley, I have built large systems, I continue to build large systems, and thought I was fairly technically adept. I was also willing to sign my real name here. However, let's suppose I was just an ordinary Joe with no special technical ability. Would that mean it was OK to allow a serious bug to persist -- with no warning -- and no useful advice from technical support? Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

(g) If I were czar, I would solve this problem by including an automatic reset during the upgrade process, and forcing users to re-enter system passwords. But since I am not czar, I wish to once again make the following, constructive suggestion: Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

To summarize: Putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue.

Is this really so much to ask?

Doug Tygar
Professor of Computer Science
UC Berkeley

kdf
2008-09-19, 23:29
Putting a one-sentence post "how do I reset the transporter" would have answered your issue.

"Is this really so much to ask?"

As a Professor at UC Berkeley you should know better than to expect a good result from a childish rant that threatens to toss the device into landfills. I'd expect more from a CA resident, even more from a professor at a University. So, instead of making your point, your credentials come across as a pretentious rant.

Frankly, posting your "credentials' make your entire point look just that much more pathetic. You set a bad example for California. Aside from you and your governor, CA has a good environmental reputation, leaders in the all important green movement. Try not to fuck it up. After all, as a professor, you set an example to so many young people who pay GOOD money to learn from you. Try to set a better standard than trowing away anything you can't deal with.

-kdf

Nonreality
2008-09-20, 01:30
The original poster, in my opinion, had reasonable expectations. I know that these things are computers and highly complex, but ideally much of that complexity would be hidden from the user and things such as upgrades would go smoothly, without ever causing panic among customers that they may have 'bricked' their expensive transporter h/w. I know that there are many things that make this close to impossible to fully achieve. But once a company has decided it is not their ambition to strive for that goal, you can be very sure the ideal won't be even approximately achieved, and that if the market offers an alternative that seems to offer appliance-like simplicity and reliability -- good old free market economics will punish the non-achiever.

Don't get me wrong, I am fan of Slim Devices and what they do and I do still recommend them to friends. But if the *perception* is that the experience of these wonderful products is likely to spoiled by the quality of the software, their success will be limited. So, if a professor of computer science at Cal feels that the experience he had is not recommendable to others, don't just condescendingly dismiss it. Suffice to say, if I were in a QA or marketing role at SD, I would make sure his voice was heard!

--dsdreamerI agree. I come from industries where the customer is always right and we all know that isn't always the case. But to make sure this is the focus I really think that when a problem is found even on betas it should be part of the install. Just a screen stating that some problems have been reported and here are some steps to correct it. As we have nightlies it would not be hard to put a warning in so that a person has some idea if something goes wrong where they might turn for info. Trying to find things with search is always kind of hit and miss. Some people are better than others at it. A customer should not have to rely on searches to fix his update. There should be info ahead of time for known problems. With the customer base growing rapidly, I really think this a concern. More and more non tech people are going to buying the products and it's got to be a good experience for all or word of mouth can be a very damaging thing.

Nonreality
2008-09-20, 01:38
Putting a one-sentence post "how do I reset the transporter" would have answered your issue.

"Is this really so much to ask?"

As a Professor at UC Berkeley you should know better than to expect a good result from a childish rant that threatens to toss the device into landfills. I'd expect more from a CA resident, even more from a professor at a University. So, instead of making your point, your credentials come across as a pretentious rant.

Frankly, posting your "credentials' make your entire point look just that much more pathetic. You set a bad example for California. Aside from you and your governor, CA has a good environmental reputation, leaders in the all important green movement. Try not to fuck it up. After all, as a professor, you set an example to so many young people who pay GOOD money to learn from you. Try to set a better standard than trowing away anything you can't deal with.

-kdf
So slamming on a customer is the way you look at it? I know you say that you are not an employee but you act like it much of the time as you berate people. I think your post should be deleted as you are, I think, a forum moderator and not a good example of one. You should have to deal with customers sometime to see what it's really like before you lecture one. Remember he paid money for the product and has a right to let the company know what he thinks. Nothing he said warranted the rude response that you made.

Nonreality
2008-09-20, 02:02
On 20-Sep-08, at 1:38 AM, Nonreality wrote:

>
> kdf;342226 Wrote:
>> Putting a one-sentence post "how do I reset the transporter" would
>> have
>> answered your issue.
>>
>> "Is this really so much to ask?"
>>
>> As a Professor at UC Berkeley you should know better than to expect a
>> good result from a childish rant that threatens to toss the device
>> into
>> landfills. I'd expect more from a CA resident, even more from a
>> professor at a University. So, instead of making your point, your
>> credentials come across as a pretentious rant.
>>
>> Frankly, posting your "credentials' make your entire point look just
>> that much more pathetic. You set a bad example for California.
>> Aside
>> from you and your governor, CA has a good environmental reputation,
>> leaders in the all important green movement. Try not to fuck it up.
>> After all, as a professor, you set an example to so many young people
>> who pay GOOD money to learn from you. Try to set a better standard
>> than trowing away anything you can't deal with.
>>
>> -kdf
> So slamming on a customer is the way you look at it? I know you say
> that you are not an employee but you act like it much of the time as
> you berate people. I think your post should be deleted as you are, I
> think, a forum moderator and not a good example of one. You should
> have to deal with customers sometime to see what it's really like
> before you lecture one. Remember he paid money for the product and
> has
> a right to let the company know what he thinks.

I am not an employee. I never will be. Berating people for disposing
of material that should belong in a recycling programme instead of a
landfill is never something I will NOT apologise for. If you have a
problem with that, you are an idiot. In case this gets deleted,
please let me make this clear while I can....toss recyclable material
in a landfill and you are a moron, class A moron.

I'm NOT a moderator, never will be, never asked to be, so fuck off.
I'm sick of shitheads like you going off on people like me. Guess
what...I'm venting (which is defended irrationally in some cases).
So....feel free. Campaign to have me banned. I'm sick of assholes
like you making my contributions seem like a waste of time. Ban me.
Go for it. Asshole.

In case you haven't got it yet. I'm sick of whinging. I'm sick of
being labelled as something I'm not, and never have been. I'm sick of
SD/Logitech not supporting folks who get routinely abused by assholes
on this forum who just don't get it. go Ahead...campaign. You have
already taken the joy I've had writing code, as I can't bring myself
to spend the time I used to testing and fixing.

No matter what....do NOT toss electronics in the bin. Period.
Logitech should not support this, and nor do I. If this is seen as
berating, then I am happy to have nothing more to do with SD, logitech
or SqueezeCenter. The user with the Demo...send it back to Logitech.
They should take reponsibility.

-kdf

ps. thanks for standing out as such a moron that I feel a stance need
be taken. If I make no other post...it's been worth it.
Calm down have a drink. You know perfectly well I was not talking about the landfill issue. Your whole post is about that and had nothing to do with what I was saying. You treated him badly. Get rid of your post, I'm not what you called me over and over. Let's start over, you just got pissed about a complaint and started firing off on him. I'm not here to see you gone, you do help people when you are not so pissed. I know customers piss you off, me too at times. But you can't attack them like that. Maybe you hate me for pointing that out but it's not mutual. He didn't deserve it. I do apologize for calling you a forum moderator, I did say that I thought you were but I guess I was mistaken. People say many things when they get frustrated and I'm sure the landfill was one of these. You choose to attack and make fun of his whole career because he said something in frustration just like you just did. I'm hoping that you understand this. Anger and frustration make us say things that we really don't mean to say. I do understand.

Themis
2008-09-20, 02:33
Kdf, I must agree with nonreality. It's useful, if not being tolerant, at least being comprehensive about standard reaction mechanisms.
Needless to say, there are some limits on public forums and you've just crossed one. Come back, please. A community is worth nothing without involved, passionate, members.

Skunk
2008-09-20, 03:00
putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download page would address this issue

I'm sure lots of issues could be addressed that way, but at some point the list of notes/links would get so long people would complain about that instead.

A wiki entry might help, but would be obsolete soon, and redundant since it's documented in the forums (well enough for you to gather that the problem is common).

If anything I think this is a good reason for model-specific forums, with the most common/recent problems stuck at the top.

Nonreality
2008-09-20, 03:09
If anything I think this is a good reason for model-specific forums, with the most common/recent problems stuck at the top.Another good idea Skunk. Something you could read about before upgrading. Maybe a line in the install saying "Have you read the SB Classic forum on Upgrading before running this". Something like that anyway.

Skunk
2008-09-20, 03:11
Berating people for disposing
of material that should belong in a recycling programme instead of a
landfill is never something I will NOT apologise for.

Subconscious apology, or typo?

<g>

kdf
2008-09-20, 03:14
On 20-Sep-08, at 3:00 AM, Skunk wrote:

>
> tygar;342147 Wrote:
>> *putting a one-sentence note (or even a simple link) on the download
>> page would address this issue*
>
> I'm sure lots of issues could be addressed that way, but at some point
> the list of notes/links would get so long people would complain about
> that instead.
>
> A wiki entry might help, but would be obsolete soon, and redundant
> since it's documented in the forums (well enough for you to gather
> that
> the problem is common).
>
> If anything I think this is a good reason for model-specific forums,
> with the most common/recent problems stuck at the top.

and again solved with a simple one-line question, rather than a rant.
especially one that threatens to irresponsibly and unethically toss
something (that has numerous methods for recycling/return) into a
landfill.
-kdf

kdf
2008-09-20, 03:23
On 20-Sep-08, at 3:11 AM, Skunk wrote:

>
> kdf;342248 Wrote:
>> Berating people for disposing
>> of material that should belong in a recycling programme instead of a
>> landfill is *never* something I will NOT apologise for.
>
> Subconscious apology, or typo?

are you asking? or like so many, making up your own mind?

either way...don't care. "recycle it" is all I have as a response to
the moronic op.

I expect that the op was just frustrated and will apologise for such
stupid threats and move on present the case for the other points.
Until then, I stand on message. nitpicks/typos aside.

-kdf

Skunk
2008-09-20, 03:26
and again solved with a simple one-line question, rather than a rant.
especially one that threatens to irresponsibly and unethically toss
something (that has numerous methods for recycling/return) into a
landfill.
-kdf

I'm going with advanced search as the most elegant solution, but that would have been waay too subtle.

kdf
2008-09-20, 03:35
On 20-Sep-08, at 3:26 AM, Skunk wrote:

>
> kdf;342262 Wrote:
>>
>> and again solved with a simple one-line question, rather than a rant.
>>
>> especially one that threatens to irresponsibly and unethically toss
>> something (that has numerous methods for recycling/return) into a
>> landfill.
>> -kdf
>
> I'm going with advanced search as the most elegant solution, but that
> would have been waay too subtle.

yup. you are asking too much.
effort = bad.
let's just all admit it.

If anyone who helps misses one possible easy solution, everything sucks.
face it, SC is a lame duck and folks who take part just don't do
enough.....for free.
-kdf

ModelCitizen
2008-09-20, 10:58
On 20-Sep-08, at 1:38 AM, Nonreality wrote:

>
> kdf;342226 Wrote:
>> Putting a one-sentence post "how do I reset the transporter" would
>> have
>> answered your issue.
>>
>> "Is this really so much to ask?"
>>
>> As a Professor at UC Berkeley you should know better than to expect a
>> good result from a childish rant that threatens to toss the device
>> into
>> landfills. I'd expect more from a CA resident, even more from a
>> professor at a University. So, instead of making your point, your
>> credentials come across as a pretentious rant.
>>
>> Frankly, posting your "credentials' make your entire point look just
>> that much more pathetic. You set a bad example for California.
>> Aside
>> from you and your governor, CA has a good environmental reputation,
>> leaders in the all important green movement. Try not to fuck it up.
>> After all, as a professor, you set an example to so many young people
>> who pay GOOD money to learn from you. Try to set a better standard
>> than trowing away anything you can't deal with.
>>
>> -kdf
> So slamming on a customer is the way you look at it? I know you say
> that you are not an employee but you act like it much of the time as
> you berate people. I think your post should be deleted as you are, I
> think, a forum moderator and not a good example of one. You should
> have to deal with customers sometime to see what it's really like
> before you lecture one. Remember he paid money for the product and
> has
> a right to let the company know what he thinks.

I am not an employee. I never will be. Berating people for disposing
of material that should belong in a recycling programme instead of a
landfill is never something I will NOT apologise for. If you have a
problem with that, you are an idiot. In case this gets deleted,
please let me make this clear while I can....toss recyclable material
in a landfill and you are a moron, class A moron.

I'm NOT a moderator, never will be, never asked to be, so fuck off.
I'm sick of shitheads like you going off on people like me. Guess
what...I'm venting (which is defended irrationally in some cases).
So....feel free. Campaign to have me banned. I'm sick of assholes
like you making my contributions seem like a waste of time. Ban me.
Go for it. Asshole.

In case you haven't got it yet. I'm sick of whinging. I'm sick of
being labelled as something I'm not, and never have been. I'm sick of
SD/Logitech not supporting folks who get routinely abused by assholes
on this forum who just don't get it. go Ahead...campaign. You have
already taken the joy I've had writing code, as I can't bring myself
to spend the time I used to testing and fixing.

No matter what....do NOT toss electronics in the bin. Period.
Logitech should not support this, and nor do I. If this is seen as
berating, then I am happy to have nothing more to do with SD, logitech
or SqueezeCenter. The user with the Demo...send it back to Logitech.
They should take reponsibility.

-kdf

ps. thanks for standing out as such a moron that I feel a stance need
be taken. If I make no other post...it's been worth it.

Landfill is the least important part of the post. kdf has been a long time supporter and major contributor to the SlimDevices stuff. He was helping people with their problems when I came along with a SqueezeBox 1. He was probably doing the same for the SliMP3.

Have a look at his posts. Some of the later ones may have been a bit grumpy but that does not negate from the fact that he has helped a lot of people over a long period of time (me very much included... thanks kdf!).

Anyway. I guess it's harder to delete his post now.

:-)

MC

Nonreality
2008-09-20, 16:32
Landfill is the least important part of the post. kdf has been a long time supporter and major contributor to the SlimDevices stuff. He was helping people with their problems when I came along with a SqueezeBox 1. He was probably doing the same for the SliMP3.

Have a look at his posts. Some of the later ones may have been a bit grumpy but that does not negate from the fact that he has helped a lot of people over a long period of time (me very much included... thanks kdf!).

Anyway. I guess it's harder to delete his post now.

:-)

MC
So because he has helped people and posted 9000 times he now has impunity to insult people with foul language and show no remorse, just more cockiness. That's great. Read my post to him and tell me that I deserved his response to me. Read the OP's last post and tell me he deserved that response also. I understand wanting to post something like that, I've helped in many systems where customers have pushed and pushed but I've always refrained because that is not what an outstanding member does. I think most have considered kdf an outstanding member of these forums. When you resort to foul language, name calling and insults you've gone over the line. He should apologize to the OP, not over his landfill beliefs but over the insults. A little civility and conversation, goes a lot farther than insults and name calling.

tygar
2008-09-20, 19:04
Many users have reported on this forum that they have experienced this bug during firmware updates. Two suggestions made above for dealing with this bug are:




To contact SlimDevices support:

But owner ccjj reports above that his back-and-forth exchanges with SlimDevices did not help him fix his Transporter (owner ccjj reports that he spent two weeks trying to get the answer).


To post a query on this forum:

But a fair amount of the advice on this forum regarding the bug contain what appears to be incorrect information (such as advice to force the xilinx device to be reprogrammed). In addition, as this very thread shows, this forum is hardly a sympathetic place.


I stand by my original suggestion -- put a comment or link on the download page. It is clear that many owners have had this problem, and it is equally clear that Logitech's existing forum and technical support have trouble helping those owners.

cliveb
2008-09-21, 00:54
I enter this thread with some trepidation - so much emotion seems to be boiling over. But let's try and look at the issue calmly.

Everyone posting here is, by definition, a forum user. They are in the happy position of knowing where to look for helpful information when they have problems. But the majority of the users of electronic devices are not in the habit of going online to seek advice. Those of us here are not representative.

For example, if a consumer device in our house goes wrong, my wife tends to panic. And she actually works in software support! The simple fact is that the average consumer simply does not know what to do when things go wrong.

And yet... the average consumer is also very tolerant. They do know that computers go wrong, and as long as a simple fix is made available, they are generally happy.

It seems that the particular problem highlighted in this thread was known to Slim Devices. It strikes me that the professor is basically correct: the sensible thing would have been to include a note about the potential issue and explain the simple solution. But his reaction to the lack of such a note seems to be a little over the top. The fact that it was not present should not be ascribed to malice, or even incompetence. Someone just forgot to put it there. A simple oversight.

Nonreality
2008-09-21, 01:01
Many users have reported on this forum that they have experienced this bug during firmware updates. Two suggestions made above for dealing with this bug are:




To contact SlimDevices support:

But owner ccjj reports above that his back-and-forth exchanges with SlimDevices did not help him fix his Transporter (owner ccjj reports that he spent two weeks trying to get the answer).


To post a query on this forum:

But a fair amount of the advice on this forum regarding the bug contain what appears to be incorrect information (such as advice to force the xilinx device to be reprogrammed). In addition, as this very thread shows, this forum is hardly a sympathetic place.


I stand by my original suggestion -- put a comment or link on the download page. It is clear that many owners have had this problem, and it is equally clear that Logitech's existing forum and technical support have trouble helping those owners.

I do agree with you mostly. I think you were frustrated to begin with, thus the comments you made. Now you are bringing up useful things for Logitech to look into and I hope they do. Your experience here started badly but I hope you do understand that the people helping are not paid to help and try the best they can. They get frustrated too. When you say things like throwing it in a landfill it gets people pissed. I'm sure you wanted help and didn't really want to throw it away. Next time please state the problem with as much detail as you can, and ask for some help. You will get it if someone can help. If you post in such a negative state then people will react the same way. I hope you understand that and I'm sorry about some of your experience here so far. It will get better if both sides communicate better and not say things to get attention.

Themis
2008-09-21, 01:28
I stand by my original suggestion -- put a comment or link on the download page. It is clear that many owners have had this problem, and it is equally clear that Logitech's existing forum and technical support have trouble helping those owners.Suppose that the effort needed to correctly place a comment (ie to place a non-generic, really helpful comment) is roughly the same as to solve the problem itself. Let alone that the bug has to be fixed anyway.
What would you suggest in this case ?

ModelCitizen
2008-09-21, 01:36
Done to death. Move along now.

Next topic?

MC

Nonreality
2008-09-21, 05:44
Done to death. Move along now.

Next topic?

MC
There are different threads for you to read. You do know that? :)

Nonreality
2008-09-21, 05:48
Suppose that the effort needed to correctly place a comment (ie to place a non-generic, really helpful comment) is roughly the same as to solve the problem itself. Let alone that the bug has to be fixed anyway.
What would you suggest in this case ?
Good question. Maybe just a warning to wait unless you are daring in this case. If I understand that you are saying the problem is too difficult to just place a generic comment, I think you are right, it could be a problem in itself.

haunyack
2008-09-21, 07:32
Sell the TP.
I did just that and have not had a (tp) rant since.

.

Nonreality
2008-09-21, 08:30
Sell the TP.
I did just that and have not had a (tp) rant since.

.

That will work but not the optimum solution I would think. Just out of curiosity, why did you sell it?

Goodsounds
2008-09-21, 09:12
Professor Tygar,

I found your point of view reasonable and your reactions warranted under the circumstances. However, too many of the comments, including some of yours, seemed too emotional and leaning in the "rant and rave" direction. To use the old cliche, doing so adds heat but no light.

Should you have an opportunity to contribute ideas for CS and engineering curricula at Berkeley, try to suggest that students in these areas often graduate without basic socialization and interpersonal skills. A bit of that was visible in some responses to your posts. More humanities and similar classes outside of the hard sciences should be required.

Good luck to you.

Nonreality
2008-09-21, 21:35
Professor Tygar,

I found your point of view reasonable and your reactions warranted under the circumstances. However, too many of the comments, including some of yours, seemed too emotional and leaning in the "rant and rave" direction. To use the old cliche, doing so adds heat but no light.

Should you have an opportunity to contribute ideas for CS and engineering curricula at Berkeley, try to suggest that students in these areas often graduate without basic socialization and interpersonal skills. A bit of that was visible in some responses to your posts. More humanities and similar classes outside of the hard sciences should be required.

Good luck to you.
Being on the receiving end of what you point out I can agree completely. :)

haunyack
2008-09-21, 21:50
That will work but not the optimum solution I would think. Just out of curiosity, why did you sell it?


Hi Nonreality,

Definitely NOT the optimum solution as you suggest, as my header recommends the "quick fix", I would suggest that SD/LT is not the end-all for digital transport systems.
As with any (all) consumer retail products - customer satisfaction is a secondary concern.
If you are dissatisfied with the product, move on.

My reason for selling is not related to the hardware itself, but with the haphazard software support.
Of course, if it was worth the $$$$.$$ , I would have stored it until my return.


.

MrSinatra
2008-09-22, 09:01
kdf,

i respect you quite a bit, but that really was over the top. i think you need a vacation from slim or something. i like the slim stuff, and i understand that those like you who contribute code to it have a personal feeling of ownership over it, but like i said long ago this is a consumer product sold for profit first and foremost, not some high school hobby open source playground. the high priests of the forum really need to separate their feelings from criticism leveled at a sold for profit product.

and i def take issue with you attacking arnold, b/c not only is it out of place in the thread and the forum, but there's no reason to think the prof doesn't share your political views. i don't and its irritating to be insulted by just reading your rant.

and professor, i do think you're also a bit, shall we say, petulent. your response [seemingly] to my post was to say:

"...have suggested that resetting the device is the "obvious" answer. I don't think these users have actually encountered the problem. Physically power cycling the Transporter "apparently" cures the problem, only to have it recur when one tries to play another file..."

well fine, but i didn't see that mentioned in your first post, was it? people are just trying to help.

and there are many such issues that a DL could cause havoc with, not just this one. why should this one issue get a warning and not others? how many should be posted? how many is practical?

did you ever call slim and did you downgrade?

Goodsounds
2008-09-22, 16:14
this is a consumer product sold for profit first and foremost, not some high school hobby open source playground.

Yes.....Yes.....Yes

I'm a relative newcomer (first product purchased a few years ago), but it appears the founders of the company were able to bootstrap product development with their Open source - Kumbaya scheme to get free labor. This allowed them to make more money personally. At some point, Logitech may tire of this, sink the Kumbaya ship, hire a few more coders, and move on.

The gearheads do seem to take stuff personally and act proprietarily, sometimes acting miffed as if someone opened the door to their private clubhouse. That's normal, they've contributed to where things are. But, the key is, they don't HAVE a proprietary interest, and they don't seem to understand that.

Nonreality
2008-09-23, 01:19
Yes.....Yes.....Yes

I'm a relative newcomer (first product purchased a few years ago), but it appears the founders of the company were able to bootstrap product development with their Open source - Kumbaya scheme to get free labor. This allowed them to make more money personally. At some point, Logitech may tire of this, sink the Kumbaya ship, hire a few more coders, and move on.

The gearheads do seem to take stuff personally and act proprietarily, sometimes acting miffed as if someone opened the door to their private clubhouse. That's normal, they've contributed to where things are. But, the key is, they don't HAVE a proprietary interest, and they don't seem to understand that.
I do think that the real contributors are getting paid for this. But the people that create some of the best addons of course are not. Maybe that is where some of the anger is coming from. One of the keys here is that the forum is relied upon as another source for info. Frustrated newcomers are not always going to say the right things and it can piss some of the long time people off. It's understandable but the thing here is that some of these people will end up being great customers if given a chance. This will not happen if they are insulted and called idiots and worse. We need give them a chance to cool down and show them how they come across without the insults. It can be frustrating on both sides. I've posted when I probably should not have but not to the degree that happened here. It's frustration, I know, but you really have to just walk away sometimes and realize you're taking it out on someone for stuff that may have been caused by people other than them. A build up of things. I'd love to know if the post I did was the reason that kdf did what he did or was it something I did before and didn't know it. He insulted me rather well. I know he does a lot of good things here, but most people don't know that. I was never insulting him, just the fact he was very harsh with the OP and out of line. If I have done something else to him I would like the chance to make it right.

Goodsounds
2008-09-23, 07:13
Non, I agree with most of your comments.

It will be interesting to see where things are a year plus from now. I wouldn't think Logitech bought Slim Devices just to play in a niche market. But, as you allude to, the company needs to get more "average user friendly", and a fair number of the cranky gearheads around here work at cross purposes to such an effort.

Personally, I think a market surge could happen if and when the products become of greater interest to and more easily accessible by soccer moms and soccer dads. The Boom is a start - a product with wider distribution and perhaps wider market acceptance.

In the meantime, I like my equipment, I hope the Slim effort is successful for Logitech and all employees concerned, and I wish everyone well.

Nonreality
2008-09-23, 16:54
Non, I agree with most of your comments.

It will be interesting to see where things are a year plus from now. I wouldn't think Logitech bought Slim Devices just to play in a niche market. But, as you allude to, the company needs to get more "average user friendly", and a fair number of the cranky gearheads around here work at cross purposes to such an effort.

Personally, I think a market surge could happen if and when the products become of greater interest to and more easily accessible by soccer moms and soccer dads. The Boom is a start - a product with wider distribution and perhaps wider market acceptance.

In the meantime, I like my equipment, I hope the Slim effort is successful for Logitech and all employees concerned, and I wish everyone well.

Well said my friend. Much better than mine. I do agree. :)

cparker
2008-09-24, 01:10
Personally, I think a market surge could happen if and when the products become of greater interest to and more easily accessible by soccer moms and soccer dads.

Hi, What are soccer moms and soccer dads? I heard it the other day in mention to a vice president and have no idea what they were on about :s

Thanks

mattybain
2008-09-24, 02:44
and a fair number of the cranky gearheads around here work at cross purposes to such an effort.


I have sat back and read most of this thread amazed that after an opening gambit like that anyone actually tried to help you. However I can't let that one past.

This is *the* most helpful friendly forums I have ever had the pleasure to be in and goes a long way to making a niche product more user friendly to the masses. So KDF can get a bit cranky, hell can't we all?

Ok so you had a bad experience, some might say that you bought some of that on yourself however just look at the goodwill and number people who are helped around here on a daily basis.

Patrick Dixon
2008-09-24, 02:57
(g) If I were czar, I would solve this problem by including an automatic reset during the upgrade process, and forcing users to re-enter system passwords.

Please no! That would mean that every time I did a remote site software upgrade, I'll have to walk someone local through connecting all their SBs again!

I think you make some very valid points - what about a 'FAQ when your SC upgrade fails page' linked from the download page? It could include all the removing cache and database file stuff, as well as reseting SBs and TPs.

PS you can do the whole reset thing from the remote with one finger: press and hold the power button until the TP resets and quickly move your finger over to the add key. If you're too slow you might need to use two fingers ...

Nonreality
2008-09-24, 21:32
Please no! That would mean that every time I did a remote site software upgrade, I'll have to walk someone local through connecting all their SBs again!

I think you make some very valid points - what about a 'FAQ when your SC upgrade fails page' linked from the download page? It could include all the removing cache and database file stuff, as well as reseting SBs and TPs.

PS you can do the whole reset thing from the remote with one finger: press and hold the power button until the TP resets and quickly move your finger over to the add key. If you're too slow you might need to use two fingers ...

You're right, that would be bad. I think a FAQ would be good, posted right with the dl.

erland
2008-09-24, 23:05
I think you make some very valid points - what about a 'FAQ when your SC upgrade fails page' linked from the download page? It could include all the removing cache and database file stuff, as well as reseting SBs and TPs.

It shouldn't be limited to just upgrade issues, some kind of troubleshooting guide which you can follow step by step instead of posting things like this thread in the forum would be good. Besides upgrade problems a lot of people have problem with their initial installation, often related to various network configuration problems.

The troubleshooting guide should of course be written for users that aren't already familiar with the product and it should probably be combined with a list of most common problems. Many of the existing wiki pages is good if you are familiar to the product, but if you aren't they are pretty hard to follow. The "beginners guide" pages are pretty good but most of those doesn't focus on solving problems, they are more directed to introducing a new user to the all features and possibilities step by step.

The wiki is the perfect place to have the troubleshooting guide, but it needs to be linked from the download page and maybe as sticky thread in the forum so new users find it.

The Ubuntu operating system forums has a great feature that when you start a new thread in the forum it automatically does a search of similar thread before your new thread is submitted. If something similar was available in this forum I suspect many issues would be solved automatically because users would find previous threads that describe similar problems.

Nonreality
2008-09-25, 04:15
It shouldn't be limited to just upgrade issues, some kind of troubleshooting guide which you can follow step by step instead of posting things like this thread in the forum would be good. Besides upgrade problems a lot of people have problem with their initial installation, often related to various network configuration problems.

The troubleshooting guide should of course be written for users that aren't already familiar with the product and it should probably be combined with a list of most common problems. Many of the existing wiki pages is good if you are familiar to the product, but if you aren't they are pretty hard to follow. The "beginners guide" pages are pretty good but most of those doesn't focus on solving problems, they are more directed to introducing a new user to the all features and possibilities step by step.

The wiki is the perfect place to have the troubleshooting guide, but it needs to be linked from the download page and maybe as sticky thread in the forum so new users find it.

The Ubuntu operating system forums has a great feature that when you start a new thread in the forum it automatically does a search of similar thread before your new thread is submitted. If something similar was available in this forum I suspect many issues would be solved automatically because users would find previous threads that describe similar problems.
Very nice Erland. I hope that some of the Logitech people are reading this thread as there has been some very good ideas presented here that might help frustrated people. I wish we could change the name of the thread though. It's nice that something good is coming out of a thread that didn't start real good.