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technojunkie
2008-08-10, 09:36
Are there any streaming music services available in the UK that are compatible (and accessible) with the Squeezebox Duet ?

autopilot
2008-08-10, 09:47
Are there any streaming music services available in the UK that are compatible (and accessible) with the Squeezebox Duet ?

If you mean music subscription services like Napstar, no sadly there is not. Hopefully one day they will support Napster (they support Rhapsody which is the same thing but US only). The official line is that there is no official line, they remain tight lipped about these things.

There are great services like MP3tunes and Last.FM though.

technojunkie
2008-08-10, 09:53
Thankyou for the post Autopilot.

I was looking for a service that allowed you to select an artist/track and have it streamed directly to your music system. If I understand correctly, Last.FM is strictly radio stations and MP3tunes stores music files that you have personally uploaded so that they can be accessed remotely from anywhere !

Is that correct ?

Thanks again.

y360
2008-08-10, 11:38
I have a long memory :-)

According to mvalera on 2007-10-30 at
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=238991&postcount=3

"We need to add support for WMA plays-for-sure DRM, which is on the
schedule however getting 7.0 out the door is the first priority"

The following is pure speculation on my part:
I suspect there might be a technical issue with the SB3
hardware that will prevent it from supporting WMA PlaysForSure.

The current firmware already utilizes the SB3 memory to an extent that leaves little room for enhancements.

See for example
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9053#c1

which mentions the need to compress the firmware.

They might find a way to support it within the confines of the current hardware, or they might introduce new hardware that essentially would be Squeezebox 4.
Either way I'm sure they are aware of Sonos support for Napster, just as I'm sure they are careful not to hurt SB3 sales.

autopilot
2008-08-11, 01:53
I have a long memory :-)

According to mvalera on 2007-10-30 at
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=238991&postcount=3

"We need to add support for WMA plays-for-sure DRM, which is on the
schedule however getting 7.0 out the door is the first priority"

The following is pure speculation on my part:
I suspect there might be a technical issue with the SB3
hardware that will prevent it from supporting WMA PlaysForSure.

The current firmware already utilizes the SB3 memory to an extent that leaves little room for enhancements.

See for example
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9053#c1

which mentions the need to compress the firmware.

They might find a way to support it within the confines of the current hardware, or they might introduce new hardware that essentially would be Squeezebox 4.
Either way I'm sure they are aware of Sonos support for Napster, just as I'm sure they are careful not to hurt SB3 sales.

Thats very interesting, it had crossed my mind that the hardware could be a limitation. But how is Rhapsody done then? And i know the firmware will have its limits, but could it not be done server side?

Also, i could maybe understand the SB2/3 having issues, but surely they would have thought about this and designed the SBr and SB Boom with enough headroom for such potential future upgrades?

Reading other forums, i would say the this was one of the biggest factors that sways people from SB to Sonos. It appeals a great deal to me.

I realise we wont get and information about possible licensing deals and partners, but it would be great if someone official, or in the know enough, could at least just clarify whether or not its technically possible?

y360
2008-08-11, 03:53
I should stress that above is pure speculation on my part. All I know with a high degree of certainty is that the firmware size is at or near hardware limits.
Slim folks may yet surprise and introduce Plays-For-Sure support in a future firmware.
The DRM decryption can not be done server-side because that would defeat the whole purpose of streaming protected digital files. The decryption must be done in hardware or software at client side in a way that prevents the end-user from capturing the decrypted digital stream.
Napster is using Microsoft's Plays-For-Sure DRM, which by the way has been abandoned by Microsoft in favor of a new DRM scheme in Zune.
The Squeezebox and its derivatives support Rhapsody's scheme in which the audio files are split into two pieces during the encoding process.
Rhapsody streams a large piece (which they call Residual Audio Data, or RAD) that contains most of the audio data but is useless on its own. Then they stream a tiny encoding of the original file (called the Essential Audio, or EA). The EA is united with the larger file to render a decrypted stream on the fly.

simbo
2008-08-11, 04:41
Interesting info, y360. In theory it should be possible to have SqueezeCenter convert the PlaysForSure stream into a RAD/EA stream and send it the SB that way?

EDIT: Actually not, as it would probably require having the whole track before decoding/re-encoding.

autopilot
2008-08-11, 04:44
So what you are effectively saying (speculating), and what i can gather from reading other stuff, is that the SB* could struggle to implement and full on DRM decrypting scheme, not just Napster, due to the processing power needed and the inherent limitations that the thin client system brings. Does not look good :(

y360
2008-08-11, 04:45
No. Support for PFS DRM needs to be added in the firmware to support Napster. Right now Sonos is the only game in town for Napster.

simbo
2008-08-11, 04:48
So what you are effectively saying (speculating), and what i can gather from reading other stuff, is that the SB* could struggle to implement and full on DRM decrypting scheme, not just Napster, due to the processing power needed and the inherent limitations that the thin client system brings. Does not look good :(
That's a big leap of logic! I have a little more faith in SD than that, especially as the Duet was created (AFAIK) to compete directly with Sonos.

Also, I don't think this is a processing power issue (after all, many low-cost MP3 players support PFS) but more of a ROM capacity issue. i.e. how much functionality you can squeeze onto your... er... squeezebox.

y360
2008-08-11, 04:51
SB already supports one DRM for Rhapsody. No reason it can't support another for Napster, except firmware size which can support only so-many features, and is limited by the size of the flash memory in the hardware.

y360
2008-08-11, 04:57
I should add that I also have full faith in SD, and it is certainly possible that support for PFS is in the pipeline. I don't think we will find out until it is announced.

simbo
2008-08-11, 05:55
Hopefully one day they will support Napster (they support Rhapsody which is the same thing but US only).
...except it costs 50% more but only streams at 66% of the quality.

autopilot
2008-08-11, 06:13
...except it costs 50% more but only streams at 66% of the quality.

Which costs more? And i thought they were both 192kps


I should add that I also have full faith in SD, and it is certainly possible that support for PFS is in the pipeline. I don't think we will find out until it is announced.

same here, fingers crossed.

simbo
2008-08-11, 06:31
Which costs more? And i thought they were both 192kps
Sorry you're right, just checked, Napster's 192kbs too.
Price tho: Rhapsody $12.99/pm (6.50), Napster 9.95/pm.

gbruzzo
2008-08-12, 07:17
Sorry you're right, just checked, Napster's 192kbs too.
Price tho: Rhapsody $12.99/pm (6.50), Napster 9.95/pm.

With a little difference: Rhapsody is not available at all in the UK - so you can't really compare.
PFS yes please. Can't believe they leave that share of the market in the hands of Sonos. Does not make sense to me.

Giacomo

simbo
2008-08-12, 07:20
With a little difference: Rhapsody is not available at all in the UK - so you can't really compare.
That wouldn't stop the Daily Mail from including it in a 2-page spread about "rip-off-Britain".

Mind you, since when have facts got in the way of a Daily Mail article.

gbruzzo
2008-08-12, 07:24
That wouldn't stop the Daily Mail from including it in a 2-page spread about "rip-off-Britain".

Mind you, since when have facts got in the way of a Daily Mail article.

Well, the fact that price discrimination is applied to the UK (without...discrimination..) is no news. Bear in mind, I gather a number of people would use the Napster framework as a medium of discovery (which is what I personally used it for when I used to subscribe to Napster-to-go - at that time you could simply download the DRM-files and re-record them via Muvaudio (www.muvaudio.com) which gave you an mp3 bit for bit perfect copy, and was not an illegal procedure, given you are not breaking the encryption)

regards
Giacomo