PDA

View Full Version : Linking artists



egd
2008-08-04, 02:45
Seeing the recent tagging related post on "Tom Petty" vs "Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers" vs Mudcrutch etc. I've been thinking that it would be useful to have the ability to add an additional tag to audio tracks that SC recoginises and consequently allows users to capture the relationship between artists/ bands etc.

For the sake of argument let's say the tag is named Relatedartists. What I have in mind is the ability to add "Tom Petty, Traveling Wilburys, Mudcrutch" to the relatedartists tag of Heartbreakers albums and visa versa and consequently have SC then present me with a Related artists entry, much like it currently does for artist and composer, whereby I can click through to the related artist. Personally I'd find this sort of feature rather handy. I can't imagine this would be very hard to implement, and it may well be doable via Erland's custom browse plugin. Would others be interested in such a feature?

funkstar
2008-08-04, 03:06
I guess this is the same as the relationship between Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds vs Grinderman?

Could also be used for artists that go by several different aliases, such as Fatboy Slim/Norman Cook and many other dance acts.

egd
2008-08-04, 04:29
Yes, the utility being the ability to navigate/ identify those relationships and thus explore more music by an artist long after your grey matter has forgotten that Eric Clapton can be found playing on:
Blind Faith, Cream, The Yardbirds, Derek & the Dominos, John Lennon & the Plastic Ono Band, Casey Jones & The Engineers, Eric Clapton Band & Eric Clapton's Rainbow Concert Band, or that Gary Moore appears on Thin Lizzy, G Force, Skid Row and Greedy Bastards.

bhaagensen
2008-08-04, 04:31
This would be cool, but I would propose a more ambitious variant. Integration with the musicbrainz database. The musicbrainz database already contains lots of information like this. The benefits of integration with musicbrainz could be vast. Specifically for this thread e.g. potentially more complete data, whenever one person adds a relationship it will be usable for all other users, reuse of all the information in the database.

Just have a look at the artist pages for the artists mentioned above (click on view all relationships)

Tom Petty:
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5ca3f318-d028-4151-ac73-78e2b2d6cdcc.html
Nick Cave:
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/4aae17a7-9f0c-487b-b60e-f8eafb410b1d.html

With the amount of data I can imagine lots of other very nice features that could follow from musicbrainz integration, but that's probably ot.

(Don't know if this is feasible technically, licensing-wise etc.)

bhaagensen
2008-08-04, 04:37
Yes, the utility being the ability to navigate/ identify those relationships and thus explore more music by an artist long after your grey matter has forgotten that Eric Clapton can be found playing on:
Blind Faith, Cream, The Yardbirds, Derek & the Dominos, John Lennon & the Plastic Ono Band, Casey Jones & The Engineers, Eric Clapton Band & Eric Clapton's Rainbow Concert Band, or that Gary Moore appears on Thin Lizzy, G Force, Skid Row and Greedy Bastards.

That is also within the realm of musicbrainz. Don't know how good the data are for the examples mentioned, but something like this would do exactly what you want.
http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=739494

egd
2008-08-04, 04:41
That is also within the realm of musicbrainz. Don't know how good the data are for the examples mentioned, but something like this would do exactly what you want.
http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=739494

If it could be made to work without requiring Internet access once the data is loaded that'd be great, otherwise not. My main reason for wanting it would be to be able to identify and play tracks by an artist not on their own albums when in the mood to listen to their stuff.

bhaagensen
2008-08-04, 04:46
If it could be made to work without requiring Internet access once the data is loaded that'd be great, otherwise not.

I guess it could. Similar to how taggers such as Picard pull data from MB for use in tags, SC could pull data and store in its database.

Khuli
2008-08-04, 06:03
... or that Gary Moore appears on Thin Lizzy, G Force, Skid Row and Greedy Bastards.

and Colosseum II

funkstar
2008-08-04, 07:53
I can see why you would want the meta data to be incuded in the iles themselfs, but for me, integration with MusicBrainz and having the data pulled down periodically would be great too. Perhaps it could be done in bulk as an option after the main library scan, with a scan option to just update the MusicBrainz data leaving the library data intact.

I have a feeling we are geting into the relms of the database schema re-design discussion again though :)

egd
2008-08-04, 10:09
I can see why you would want the meta data to be incuded in the iles themselfs, but for me, integration with MusicBrainz and having the data pulled down periodically would be great too. Perhaps it could be done in bulk as an option after the main library scan, with a scan option to just update the MusicBrainz data leaving the library data intact.That would work nicely.


I have a feeling we are geting into the relms of the database schema re-design discussion again though :)We probably are, but I think it will be necessary if the devices are to continue taking market share. Competitor products will inevitably move in that direction and SC will need to evolve whether it's to set the benchmark or just to keep up. I've had a play with a Qsonix Q110 (admittedly a different target market) and whilst there's a lot to dislike about the device, there's a hell of a lot to like about its front-end and the user experience in terms of ease of use, automated metadata fetching including for pre-existing tracks etc. IMHO the SB3/Receiver/Transporter have the audio side of the equation down pat, but there's an opportunity to do a lot in terms of the way a user interacts with their music via the front-end, regardless of whether it's a browser, touch screen or Controller.

erland
2008-08-04, 11:27
Just information, if you don't already know this.

If you use the LastFM scanning module in the Custom Scan plugin and also use Custom Browse, you will get access to the "Similar artists" statistics collected by LastFM.

I've thought about implementing something similar towards musicbrainz, but haven't got the time/inspiration to do it yet.

egd
2008-08-04, 15:43
and Colosseum II

My point exactly...I knew that :|

egd
2008-08-04, 15:45
Just information, if you don't already know this.

If you use the LastFM scanning module in the Custom Scan plugin and also use Custom Browse, you will get access to the "Similar artists" statistics collected by LastFM.

I've thought about implementing something similar towards musicbrainz, but haven't got the time/inspiration to do it yet.

Thanks Erland, sounds like it could be pretty useful. Does it link related artists/ bands in one's library or does it suggest you may like "b" because you like "a"? I'm most keen to be able to explore interrelationships in my existing library.

erland
2008-08-04, 16:26
Thanks Erland, sounds like it could be pretty useful. Does it link related artists/ bands in one's library or does it suggest you may like "b" because you like "a"? I'm most keen to be able to explore interrelationships in my existing library.

It's limited to the artists in your own library

gusi
2008-08-05, 05:28
I thought there was already a many to many relationship between artist and track in the schema. (Last time I looked it was 6.x). So you should be able to enter multiple artists.

Try tagging your jazz albums where there are few 'fixed' bands but many collaborations between artists. It is no easy task.

Most tools however derive the tag name from the file name which does not help with multiple artist names either. It also breaks the database concept of keeping the data and storage info separated.

egd
2008-08-15, 15:41
I thought there was already a many to many relationship between artist and track in the schema. (Last time I looked it was 6.x). So you should be able to enter multiple artists.They are catered for insofar as you can browse all albums/ tracks an artist is involved in so long as they are included in the artist listing of a given track. What I'm talking about here though also covers linking bands/artists where their presence is mutually exclusive in tagging terms eg. an album by Mudcrutch will likely be tagged as ARTIST=Mudcrutch and the album "Damn the Torpedoes" will likely be tagged ARTIST="Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers". With this tagging scheme, the fact that Tom Petty appears on both albums is lost to SC, ie there is no way of browsing from the one to the other, albeit I guess one could go down the ALBUMARTIST=Mudcrutch, ARTIST=Tom Petty, ARTIST=Mudcrutch path.

Whilst it would require additional code and increased scan time it'd be simpler from a user and flexibility perspective to add a RELATEDARTISTS tag and have SC process it. That way you'd just have ARTIST=Mudcrutch, RELATEDARTISTS=Tom Petty; Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

ralphpnj
2008-08-16, 01:47
Interesting thread and related to this earlier thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43750

Only thing was during the discussion on the earlier thread I was told many things, some true and some not true, but the one thing I was not told was "Boy, what a good idea!". So how come now a very similar idea to the one I outlined in the earlier thread is "a good idea"?

In any event, I'm glad to see that others are beginning to see the potential of a fully "linked" music library/database and that the discussion is continuing. Hopefully this thread will ultimately bear more fruit than that earlier thread.

While I understand that one can always use one of the online sources for additional information about the artists and albums playing on one's SqueezeBox, it would be nice to have similar information about one's own music library stored within one's music library's database so that not only are the various "links" shown but one could easily find and play the linked item. For example, what I mean is that not only would one be able to see that Tom Petty is a member of Mudcrutch but, provided that the Mudcrutch CD is in one's music library, instantly be able to add Mudcrutch to the playlist via a link. This would be very helpful, especially when it comes to jazz and classical music. Scan through the earlier thread for a more a detailed explanation of what it is I'm hoping to see.

egd
2008-08-16, 03:38
In any event, I'm glad to see that others are beginning to see the potential of a fully "linked" music library/database and that the discussion is continuing. Hopefully this thread will ultimately bear more fruit than that earlier thread. I doubt it will result in any changes in the short-medium term as the primary focus seems to be on getting new hardware rolled out. Changes will only occur when it becomes an imperative to maintaining/ growing market share.