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View Full Version : The Wiki needs big help.



Nonreality
2008-06-27, 15:36
I don't know about you folks out there but the Wiki is in bad shape to find anything. I finally was able to find the MusicIP page and it was finding in a sub menu through show all pages. What index's there are are usually alphabetically B and N. So good luck finding anything starting with anything else. The only way it was useful to me for the last 5 months was to come to the forums and find a link to what I was looking for and go from here. Thats not a good way. They really need to hire someone to at least index it all so people can find what there and what is needed. It's been this way for too long and has to really frustrate newbee's as well as not so new. There is a lot of useful stuff there but finding it is so much of a challenge I sure a lot of people give up. The nature of all the products are such that to take full advantage of whichever device you have you need access to information on how use it. Nothing wrong with that but if you're not going to ship it with a huge manual then you need to make information access a lot easier. At the very least a good index on the very first page of the Wiki. Right now only the beginner guides are pretty easy to find. The Wiki could alleviate a lot of the frustration that we see in the forums if it was more accessible and properly laid out. Just my 2 bits.

whicken
2008-06-27, 17:31
As a workaround, Google does a great job searching - if you do something like this:

musicip site:wiki.slimdevices.com

It will find whatever you're looking for (replace musicip with your own search phrase, the point is to add site:wiki.slimdevices.com to your google search). This trick can be a huge time saver.

Nonreality
2008-06-27, 20:52
Yeah so you could replace any site then right? Now for me to remember it. I've been using a firefox addon called Hyperwords and it allows you to click on any work and run it in various searchs and research sites and would be nice to figure out how to add this. Usually you just click on a search box and and it to hyperwords. Got to think about it. But still they really need to do something about indexing the Wiki. Thanks for the tip it's appreciated.

erland
2008-06-27, 21:37
What is the problem with the nice little search box on the left side of the wiki page ?

Don't you get to where you want by entering "musicip" in it and hitting the search/go buttons ?

Nonreality
2008-06-27, 22:43
What is the problem with the nice little search box on the left side of the wiki page ?

Don't you get to where you want by entering "musicip" in it and hitting the search/go buttons ?My point was it needs a proper index and yes there are various ways to search anywhere. But lot of time by browsing and an index you end up learning a lot more about things and not having to come up with a search idea each time. I'm probably not the sharpest tack in the box and sometimes don't know how to phrase the proper questions. If I can look at an index I can find related ideas and a lot of the time find answers I need. Searches are great but it's nice to browse a site and learn that way. Reference books have done this for years and it's still a good way. You look at the wiki and from the first page it looks like it doesn't have much. I keep finding more things just by hearing about them here. I'd never discover them by going there first. I just don't think it should be that way.

mherger
2008-06-27, 22:49
> I don't know about you folks out there but the Wiki is in bad shape to
> find anything. I finally was able to find the MusicIP page and it was
> finding in a sub menu through show all pages.

Hmm... when I enter "MusicIP" in the search field I get the following
articles right away:

1. MusicIP Mixer
2. Automating MusicIP with GenPuid
3. Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter

And a bit further down:

MusicIPHeadlessOnLinux

Did none of these cover your needs?

Michael

mherger
2008-06-28, 00:53
> My point was it need a proper index

There's a link called "All Pages". Doesn't this cover your needs?

> and yes there are various ways to search anywhere.

I find searching so much easier, I almost have given up
bookmarks/favorites. If I need some information about XY, google will find
it so much faster than I'd do in my favorites. Plus it's up to date.

The same applies imho to a wiki. If you're looking for a given keyword,
why not let the machine do the search for you? There's no quicker way, as
even in an index you'd have to look for that keyword (manually or using
the browser's search tool).

> Reference books have done this for years

When did I pick up an encyclopedia last time? A dictionary? Timetable? I
don't even bother owning them. An internet search will bring up the
results faster.

I know, everybody doesn't like this approach. But it's worth a thought
anyway :-).

Michael

Nonreality
2008-06-28, 01:33
> My point was it need a proper index

There's a link called "All Pages". Doesn't this cover your needs?

> and yes there are various ways to search anywhere.

I find searching so much easier, I almost have given up
bookmarks/favorites. If I need some information about XY, google will find
it so much faster than I'd do in my favorites. Plus it's up to date.

The same applies imho to a wiki. If you're looking for a given keyword,
why not let the machine do the search for you? There's no quicker way, as
even in an index you'd have to look for that keyword (manually or using
the browser's search tool).

> Reference books have done this for years

When did I pick up an encyclopedia last time? A dictionary? Timetable? I
don't even bother owning them. An internet search will bring up the
results faster.

I know, everybody doesn't like this approach. But it's worth a thought
anyway :-).

Michael
Well I guess I'm the only one that doesn't want to think up a keyword and would rather browse and learn. Judging by complexity complaints in the forum I would think you would want to make it as easy to find stuff as possible. But it looks as though I'm wrong on this as I'm the only one that feels this way.

erland
2008-06-28, 01:56
Well I guess I'm the only one that doesn't want to think up a keyword and would rather browse and learn. Judging by complexity complaints in the forum I would think you would want to make it as easy to find stuff as possible. But it looks as though I'm wrong on this as I'm the only one that feels this way.

You are not alone:
- If you know what your are looking for, the search is the preferred way
- If you don't know what you are looking for and just want to see all possibilities, browsing is better.

I think the "Beginners Guide" link on the main wiki page already is a pretty good start for beginners, so I suppose you are looking for a way to browse the more advanced features ?

The "All Pages" link Michael refers to is probably a bit too much, I'm guessing that you would like something more structured ?

mherger
2008-06-28, 02:04
> Well I guess I'm the only one that doesn't want to think up a keyword

You already have the keyword, you named it yourself in the original
posting: MusicIP.

I'm really sorry you felt lost finding the information you were looking
for. We really want this information to be as easily accessible as
possible.

I just don't understand your initial complaint: There's an index of all
pages, they're linked, you can browse them forever. The pages are
searchable using a fulltext search (if needed or wanted). What more do you
want?

Michael

Nonreality
2008-06-28, 02:33
No worries Michael you just don't get it, and it might be an age thing. Erland the all pages is as close as I guess it will be and that's fine for me. Hopefully it enough for others.

mherger
2008-06-28, 02:46
> No worries Michael

Great.

> you just don't get it

I tried.

Michael

Nonreality
2008-06-28, 14:28
> I don't know about you folks out there but the Wiki is in bad shape to
> find anything. I finally was able to find the MusicIP page and it was
> finding in a sub menu through show all pages.

Hmm... when I enter "MusicIP" in the search field I get the following
articles right away:

1. MusicIP Mixer
2. Automating MusicIP with GenPuid
3. Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter

And a bit further down:

MusicIPHeadlessOnLinux

Did none of these cover your needs?

MichaelMichael just for fun, how would you find out about MusicIP if you didn't know it existed by using the Wiki.

JimC
2008-06-28, 14:53
Michael just for fun, how would you find out about MusicIP if you didn't know it existed by using the Wiki.

It would be better if YOU answered that question... how would you expect to find MusicIP? That way, we can look into implementing it. As Michael pointed out, there's an automatic index of all pages, as well as a search box. Browsing is, unfortunately, in the eyes of the explorer; we will all see the perfect way from our own point of view.

An even better solution would be for you to go ahead and create your preferred method of discovery -- it's a public wiki and you are free to add/edit/contribute at any time. If you discover something that you think is important and should be highlighted, go ahead and do that. Not only don't we mind, we encourage--and truly appreciate--user contributions.


-=> Jim

Skunk
2008-06-28, 17:17
While I don't know exactly what MusicIP is, I'd expect to find it under Third Party Squeezecenter Plugins I suppose. I'd then be presented with about ten categories of plugins. I chose 'PluginsAudio- Extras for finding, playing, or managing music', but it wasn't one of the ~50 listed, so I agree that if you didn't know what you were searching for, you'd likely never see the MusicIP page. Is that where I should add the link?

Nonreality
2008-06-28, 17:33
It would be better if YOU answered that question... how would you expect to find MusicIP? That way, we can look into implementing it. As Michael pointed out, there's an automatic index of all pages, as well as a search box. Browsing is, unfortunately, in the eyes of the explorer; we will all see the perfect way from our own point of view.

An even better solution would be for you to go ahead and create your preferred method of discovery -- it's a public wiki and you are free to add/edit/contribute at any time. If you discover something that you think is important and should be highlighted, go ahead and do that. Not only don't we mind, we encourage--and truly appreciate--user contributions.


-=> JimThis wasn't supposed to be a bitch session and I didn't mean it that way at all. I wanted to point out that the Wiki wasn't very user friendly for someone that isn't used to using it. I have already said one idea, a good index from the first page. Something that leads to everything that you would want customers to be able to find on their own and make it as easy as possible. Ways to use the SB to it's fullest. I'm not that good at html, I've done some in the beginners area but don't feel like messing anything more complex up. My idea was hopefully to get some ideas from the community to achieve the above but now I really feel that this has not been taken well and I see now that either I worded it wrong or offended someone here.

Nonreality
2008-06-28, 18:37
While I don't know exactly what MusicIP is, I'd expect to find it under Third Party Squeezecenter Plugins I suppose. I'd then be presented with about ten categories of plugins. I chose 'PluginsAudio- Extras for finding, playing, or managing music', but it wasn't one of the ~50 listed, so I agree that if you didn't know what you were searching for, you'd likely never see the MusicIP page. Is that where I should add the link?Yes I think that it at least needs to be included there. I'm having my son also look at some ideas as he's worked on some Wiki's before and agrees that this could be improved for browser types. Maybe we'll have an Old Man's Index :)
Thanks for taking a look at what I was talking about.

Skunk
2008-06-29, 05:46
Yes I think that it at least needs to be included there. I'm having my son also look at some ideas as he's worked on some Wiki's before and agrees that this could be improved for browser types. Maybe we'll have an Old Man's Index :)
Thanks for taking a look at what I was talking about.

I couldn't edit that particular page, not being a wiki administrator.

It looks like you're making an A-Z index, which isn't that much better than the 'all pages index', IMO. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Old_Man%27s_Index .

Having the 'all pages index' categorized would suit my browsing needs better, i.e.:
Servers/Hardware
Networking
Plugins
Mac Topics
Troubleshooting
etc.

Skunk
2008-06-29, 06:00
It looks like the Plugins wiki is mirrored on the main nav bar under Community>Plugins, so that must be why it's not editable.

If anyone who can change it agrees it should be there could you please add it?

erland
2008-06-29, 06:30
It looks like the Plugins wiki is mirrored on the main nav bar under Community>Plugins, so that must be why it's not editable.

If anyone who can change it agrees it should be there could you please add it?
The MusicIP plugin isn't a "third party" plugin, it's bundled with standard SqueezeCenter.
The MusicIP server/software isn't really a plugin it's a separate software that is integrated with SqueezeCenter using a plugin, so I think I would prefer to have it in similar place as iTunes.

There is a "Using iTunes with SqueeceCenter" link in the Beginners Guide (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/BeginnersGuide), I think it would be appropriate to have a similar MusicIP link.

The "Third-Party SqueezeCenter Plugins" links on the front page should really be called something else, something like "Third-Party Software" which could contain both third party software, third party plugins and third party Controller Applets.

Nonreality
2008-06-29, 07:35
I couldn't edit that particular page, not being a wiki administrator.

It looks like you're making an A-Z index, which isn't that much better than the 'all pages index', IMO. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Old_Man%27s_Index .

Having the 'all pages index' categorized would suit my browsing needs better, i.e.:
Servers/Hardware
Networking
Plugins
Mac Topics
Troubleshooting
etc.Yes like I said I not that experienced so my son and I are trying the A-Z and then if that works a categorized version too. Just learning right now. Pop in and start with us if you want. We thought doing the A-Z would put a perspective that we could categorize from.

Nonreality
2008-06-29, 07:46
Erland is there a way to make these pages self populate after we get them done? If we do an A-Z and a Category index is it possible to have any new pages show there like it does in the All Pages area?

erland
2008-06-29, 09:07
Erland is there a way to make these pages self populate after we get them done? If we do an A-Z and a Category index is it possible to have any new pages show there like it does in the All Pages area?

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to do.

If you really want ALL pages in the index, doesn't the "All Pages" do the job good enough ?

If you don't want all pages in the index, it seems like a bad idea to add things to it automatically.

If you really want something like "All Pages", but just want it divided per alphabetic character, I think someone should look at writing a wiki plugin for this (unless there already is one available).

Indexes that are manually updated will work for things that doesn't change very often, like for example "Beginners guide", but it won't work if you really want it updated with every single page on the wiki site.

If you are trying to categorize things, you should really use [[Category:xxx]] keywords in each page instead of creating a specific index page (xxx should be replaced with your category name). If you do this you will get an automatic updated index page, for example like this one:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Category:Development

JimC
2008-06-29, 12:15
This wasn't supposed to be a bitch session and I didn't mean it that way at all. I wanted to point out that the Wiki wasn't very user friendly for someone that isn't used to using it. I have already said one idea, a good index from the first page. Something that leads to everything that you would want customers to be able to find on their own and make it as easy as possible. Ways to use the SB to it's fullest. I'm not that good at html, I've done some in the beginners area but don't feel like messing anything more complex up. My idea was hopefully to get some ideas from the community to achieve the above but now I really feel that this has not been taken well and I see now that either I worded it wrong or offended someone here.

No, I understood your point and wasn't offended at all.

The problem I wanted you to address was how *you* thought MusicIP should be "browseable"... Frankly, I think it's a pretty advanced feature and not one that I would recommend to just anyone (especially since it takes a LONG time to process a collection).

My point is that what YOU find valuable and important is not going to be the same for everybody. If everything you could do with a Squeezebox were indexed, cataloged and even briefly described in a "single" place, you would end up needing another index just for that place.

I appreciate the input from everyone, because it helps us look at ways of improving the site and the wiki. Please don't be offended, however, if we don't agree 100% with your input. The good news is that you can always go change things to suit you, since the wiki is open to the community for editing.


-=> Jim

Nonreality
2008-06-29, 15:51
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to do.

If you really want ALL pages in the index, doesn't the "All Pages" do the job good enough ?

If you don't want all pages in the index, it seems like a bad idea to add things to it automatically.

If you really want something like "All Pages", but just want it divided per alphabetic character, I think someone should look at writing a wiki plugin for this (unless there already is one available). Yes that is what we'd like to do "first" but only knew how to do manually. But thats not the end result. The "All Pages" is great but I think it would be easier to use if it was organized by letter. Then we want to do by category and that wouldn't need to be updated automatically like you said. I think that once it's in place people that create a new page that they feel should be in the category index will update it themselves and maybe a reminder to do that could be put on the main page or something to that effect. My thinking is that an organized "All Pages", a Category Index and the Search would really make it a nice way for people to explore in whatever way the find the best for them. My problem is that I haven't done anything with Web pages for 15 years or more so it's all new to me again. I don't mind working on it but if it's not a good idea or if people don't feel it's needed then it's probably not worth doing. That was my original idea for the post, to get some feedback. Also while it would be nice for me, it's more for the new people to find stuff that they are looking for and not have to wait for a forum response until they get stuck and need the forum. Maybe I should have put it in the beginner section to see what they would like because so far from the posts here it seems like it not really needed. Thanks for the help and we'll see what transpires.

Nonreality
2008-06-29, 15:57
No, I understood your point and wasn't offended at all.

The problem I wanted you to address was how *you* thought MusicIP should be "browseable"... Frankly, I think it's a pretty advanced feature and not one that I would recommend to just anyone (especially since it takes a LONG time to process a collection).

My point is that what YOU find valuable and important is not going to be the same for everybody. If everything you could do with a Squeezebox were indexed, cataloged and even briefly described in a "single" place, you would end up needing another index just for that place.

I appreciate the input from everyone, because it helps us look at ways of improving the site and the wiki. Please don't be offended, however, if we don't agree 100% with your input. The good news is that you can always go change things to suit you, since the wiki is open to the community for editing.


-=> Jim

MusicIp was just a place holder and heck if I got it to work, that proves anyone can. :)

MrSinatra
2008-07-01, 01:16
nonr,

if i understand you correctly, you want something akin to a table of contents or an index page in the back of the book, meshed together, as a kind of all in one guidepage to link to various topics?

i think thats a great idea, and worthy. more than just a page listing, it would have headings and summaries and so on? a way for people to 'discover' something they might be interested in?

i'm a wiki moron myself, but i would like to learn if i ever get the time, but do you think you could construct an opening page, and then get the slim team to use it as the default opening page of the wiki, or at least place a link to it prominently from such a page?

Nonreality
2008-07-01, 02:50
nonr,

if i understand you correctly, you want something akin to a table of contents or an index page in the back of the book, meshed together, as a kind of all in one guidepage to link to various topics?

i think thats a great idea, and worthy. more than just a page listing, it would have headings and summaries and so on? a way for people to 'discover' something they might be interested in?

i'm a wiki moron myself, but i would like to learn if i ever get the time, but do you think you could construct an opening page, and then get the slim team to use it as the default opening page of the wiki, or at least place a link to it prominently from such a page?Wow Mr Sinatra, I was just sitting here late towards morning and thinking I must have been way off base as no one had posted in 3days or so that this might even be a half good idea and was just about to give up on it. Thank you and I do think it's a good idea and I just need to learn to do it right. I don't think it's that hard but more of a learning as you go type thing. You are more than welcome to pitch in and give it a shot. Just review the media wiki help on the first page and then edit what we've started. We just open the all pages in one page and copy and paste to the new a-z page. Then once thats done we'll start by categories. Thats when I'll need some input on how to put things together to make it work right. Let me know if you have some ideas on how it would be best to proceed. Thanks again..

MrSinatra
2008-07-01, 13:01
i might be ok at adding some content here or there, but i have yet to get a grasp on wiki formatting and so on. i just don't have the time lately.

however, i can say that in general for your guidepage, i would setup broad categories and then set subtopics, and assign lil descriptions/highlights to them.

just to illustrate, categories in bold, subtopics underneath, and u should imagine a summary after each one):

Squeezecenter
Features
Squeezeplay
SoftSqueeze
Plugins
etc

Squeezebox
etc

(sb2 and sb3 should have categories too)

SBR
etc

SBC
etc

Duet
etc

Transporter
etc

...

obviously this will be one big page, if it is to cover all manner of possible things to do with slim, it strikes me as a glossary linked to the necessary info. the worth of it as i see it, would be as a clearinghouse of abilities, meaning that it would be a single page listing showing what all the slim stuff can do at that time. (so if you wrote a plugin or something, you'd want ti listed there)

maybe you also envision it as a "how to" and thats fine. so the question is, is this want you want?

basically, an all in one glossary / index page listing all abilities and linking to how to employ them? (or fuller indepth descriptions?)

should such a page do anything else?

Nonreality
2008-07-01, 14:37
obviously this will be one big page, if it is to cover all manner of possible things to do with slim, it strikes me as a glossary linked to the necessary info. the worth of it as i see it, would be as a clearinghouse of abilities, meaning that it would be a single page listing showing what all the slim stuff can do at that time. (so if you wrote a plugin or something, you'd want ti listed there)

maybe you also envision it as a "how to" and thats fine. so the question is, is this want you want?

basically, an all in one glossary / index page listing all abilities and linking to how to employ them? (or fuller indepth descriptions?)

should such a page do anything else?Good stuff and thank you. I probably over spoke when I said "everything a SC can do" when I meant it as "everything on the Wiki now" in an easier way to access. A place that you can browse and stumble upon something new that you were not aware of it doing. The way it was the only way this would happen for me was to find something in the forums and go wow, I didn't know that and then go an search the wiki. I would try to look for more stuff like that and found it to be hard or impossible. There's a lot of good stuff there having placed in a way like you suggest is what I was thinking. Like you I don't have any experience doing it but so far it seems pretty logical and not too hard to do. The basics anyway. :) Hopefully some of the Smarter ones here will pitch in when I get stuck. Also I hope I have the time to get it done in this centure. :) Again thanks for the ideas.

Skunk
2008-11-13, 19:56
I probably over spoke when I said "everything a SC can do" when I meant it as "everything on the Wiki now" in an easier way to access.

I deleted your A-C index and started a more browsing-friendly one. Since the info is all presented logically already, though not in one place, I thought it would be nice to add links to noteworthy forum posts for each section as well, in a new article fore each section. I've gotten through about 2/3 of the all pages index, so any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Also, isn't the title a bit ageist?

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Old_Man%27s_Index

Nonreality
2008-11-16, 02:19
I deleted your A-C index and started a more browsing-friendly one. Since the info is all presented logically already, though not in one place, I thought it would be nice to add links to noteworthy forum posts for each section as well, in a new article fore each section. I've gotten through about 2/3 of the all pages index, so any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Also, isn't the title a bit ageist?

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Old_Man%27s_Index

Thanks Skunk. I had gotten a bit frustrated with my lack of web page knowledge and had forgotten about it. I'll check it out and let you know. The title was just temp as it was a reference to books and an older way of laying out things. One I'm familiar with. :) Sorry I had left it for so long.