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miguelk
2008-06-17, 10:07
I am a longtime Squeezebox (v3) user, and was thrilled when I could purchase the new controller. However, since I've gotten it, I've had extraordinary difficulty keeping it connected to the server, and when it does connect, it's extremely slow.

My player is somewhat far from my router, but i have an amplifying antenna which gets me an average of 60% signal. Works good enough for streaming flac files without skipping. The controller seems more finicky, and only works properly when i'm in the room with the router, which of course is useless becuase it's nowhere near my stereo. When it does connect, it takes forever to load data...more than a minute to load the artist list (which is admittedly quite long). If i use a laptop in the same room to control the squeezebox, i have no similar problem.

I have tried range extenders and powerline adapters, and nothing really works with my router. Can anyone explain why the controller seems to require a stronger signal than the squeezebox itself to function?

thanks.

LuLuther
2008-06-18, 00:44
I experience the same problem - the controller seems to have a quite weak antenna, definitely weaker than the one in the squeezebox. More often than not I have to shut down the controller and switch it on again to get a signal and connection...

ianstuart
2008-06-21, 09:06
I have also experienced the same problem. My SB3 works perfectly, has about 30 foot range and works together with a Netgear Range Extender with no difficulty. My two Duets are a mess. Only about 15 foot range and when they are in range of the Range Extender it is a crap shoot whether or not they will connect. Support has basically pulled a Microsoft or HP, the software blames the hardware and then the hardware blames the software. Claiming that it is a network problem isn't really satisfactory if you expect to sell the product to the general public.

miguelk
2008-06-23, 07:30
Can someone from Logitech address our concern?

amcluesent
2008-06-23, 08:24
Have you tried netstumbler to scan for wi-fi channel contention?

pfarrell
2008-06-23, 08:43
amcluesent wrote:
> Have you tried netstumbler to scan for wi-fi channel contention?

or kismet.
WiFi is far more complex than most folks realize.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

mattybain
2008-06-23, 08:59
amcluesent wrote:
> Have you tried netstumbler to scan for wi-fi channel contention?

or kismet.
WiFi is far more complex than most folks realize.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Whilst it is true that wi-fi is complex and often the source of problems there definitely seems to be something going on that is not being addressed. Numerous people have posted with problems, often who already have a SB3 which should rule out wirless issues.

I have 2 SB3's and 2 Duet's, the SB3's hold great signal and the duets are all too close to the router to not get a good signal.

However I have noticed that one of the SBC's is *much* worse than the other one. It doesn't hold a signal very well, often loses connection and more often than that it takes an age to come up with the list of artists.

The other one is brilliant and works like a charm, excatly how I wanted the SBC to behave, quick and holds a good connection.

The are on the same firmware and obviously the SC is the same version, what exactly is going on here? I have switched the SBC's round so the bad one is very near to the router which has solved my issues for now.

pfarrell
2008-06-23, 09:10
mattybain wrote:
> Numerous people have posted with problems, often who
> already have a SB3 which should rule out wirless issues.

Actually, that WiFi works perfectly one week does not mean that it will
work perfectly the next week. A neighbor can add WiFi and stomp all over
your signal.

> However I have noticed that one of the SBC's is *much* worse than the
> other one.

The SBC is different. Its battery powered, all the rest have wall power.
The SB2, SB3, and Transporter have two antennas, the SBC has one.
If they cranked up the RF in the SBC, the battery would run out sooner,
and folks would complain about that.

If anything is marginal, the SBC will suffer.

If one is much worse, you should use the 30 day money back policy.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

andynormancx
2008-06-23, 09:21
mattybain wrote:
> Numerous people have posted with problems, often who
> already have a SB3 which should rule out wirless issues.

Actually, that WiFi works perfectly one week does not mean that it will
work perfectly the next week. A neighbor can add WiFi and stomp all over
your signal.

While true, one would imagine that the people reporting that their SBCs/SBRs have worse wifi performance than their SB3s are comparing the wifi peformance at the same time, rather than a week apart.

miguelk
2008-06-23, 10:11
That is correct; my SB3 works fine, and has no skipping, with a 60% signal. At the same time, the controller fails. It only works when it's literally next to the router.

I'm past the 30 days, unfortunately, so it appears i have a useless piece of hardware that I paid $299 for. Very disappointing that there has been no official response from Logitech.

FYI i tried changing routers...from a D-Link to a Netgear. Didn't improve the situation.

mvalera
2008-06-23, 10:32
Guys,

This isn't a tech support forum. I'd love to be able to give you all one response that solves your problem, but for all I know they could all be happening for different reasons.

If you have connectivity issues... please call tech support.

Mike

iPhone
2008-06-23, 10:33
Whilst it is true that wi-fi is complex and often the source of problems there definitely seems to be something going on that is not being addressed. Numerous people have posted with problems, often who already have a SB3 which should rule out wirless issues.

I have 2 SB3's and 2 Duet's, the SB3's hold great signal and the duets are all too close to the router to not get a good signal.

However I have noticed that one of the SBC's is *much* worse than the other one. It doesn't hold a signal very well, often loses connection and more often than that it takes an age to come up with the list of artists.

The other one is brilliant and works like a charm, excatly how I wanted the SBC to behave, quick and holds a good connection.

The are on the same firmware and obviously the SC is the same version, what exactly is going on here? I have switched the SBC's round so the bad one is very near to the router which has solved my issues for now.

From a Wi-Fi and maybe more importantly an RF standpoint, we can't compare the Controller to any other Slim Devices product. It is a handheld mobile device. It has the lowest profile (read not good for antenna position) and many times has the users hand and/or body blocking the path to the access point.

Additionally since it has the weakest antenna placement options, it is more susceptible to interference from other household devices as well as from neighboring Wi-Fi networks.

All in all, the Duet and its Controller are a fairly good first effort. This is especially true when one looks at the fact that it had to be designed around a standard that already excised and has to work and play with equipment functioning in a specific way and domain. One might ask if the Controller could have been designed differently. The answer is of course yes it could have, but then it would have most likely been a completely new system with no backward compatibility. More importantly it would have most likely needed its own non-WiFi transmitters and receivers. Most multi-unit Squeezebox users have a Home WiFi Network so it makes sense to use that and not reinvent the wheel.

This might be to painful for some users, but has anybody with reception problems (and a wireless access point far from where the Controller is used most) thought about running the Duet wired and putting the Controller in Adhoc Mode?

pfarrell
2008-06-23, 10:42
miguelk wrote:
> I'm past the 30 days, unfortunately, so it appears i have a useless
> piece of hardware that I paid $299 for. Very disappointing that there
> has been no official response from Logitech.

Call tech support. Not here on the forums, call them. Talk to them.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

shake-the-disease
2008-06-23, 22:53
My 2c suggestion is to consider adding an airport express (as a WDS) in the same room as your controller to extend the range of your main wireless network.

Mushroom_3
2008-06-24, 03:26
From a Wi-Fi and maybe more importantly an RF standpoint, we can't compare the Controller to any other Slim Devices product. It is a handheld mobile device. It has the lowest profile (read not good for antenna position) and many times has the users hand and/or body blocking the path to the access point.

Additionally since it has the weakest antenna placement options, it is more susceptible to interference from other household devices as well as from neighboring Wi-Fi networks.

All in all, the Duet and its Controller are a fairly good first effort. This is especially true when one looks at the fact that it had to be designed around a standard that already excised and has to work and play with equipment functioning in a specific way and domain. One might ask if the Controller could have been designed differently. The answer is of course yes it could have, but then it would have most likely been a completely new system with no backward compatibility. More importantly it would have most likely needed its own non-WiFi transmitters and receivers. Most multi-unit Squeezebox users have a Home WiFi Network so it makes sense to use that and not reinvent the wheel.

This might be to painful for some users, but has anybody with reception problems (and a wireless access point far from where the Controller is used most) thought about running the Duet wired and putting the Controller in Adhoc Mode?

I find that post quite astonishing really. As I read it, you are saying that Slim Devices (Logitech) released a product (the Controller) they knew had limitations and probably wouldn’t work properly; but us customers, who have paid good money for the product, should be grateful we have it at all.

You may find this strange, but that is not my expectation when purchasing a product. (especially when I have a Squeezebox that works perfectly.)

rdefelice
2008-06-24, 09:02
Anyone having signal strength problems may want to try getting their hands on a Buffalo WHR-HP-G54. It has a built-in amplifier that boosts its signal strength dramatically. I own one and can attest that it is not marketing BS. It really does put out a much stronger signal than any other access point I've ever used, including newer 802.11n APs.

-r

iPhone
2008-06-24, 09:48
I find that post quite astonishing really. As I read it, you are saying that Slim Devices (Logitech) released a product (the Controller) they knew had limitations and probably wouldn’t work properly; but us customers, who have paid good money for the product, should be grateful we have it at all.

You may find this strange, but that is not my expectation when purchasing a product. (especially when I have a Squeezebox that works perfectly.)

WOW, you might have read something into my post that was not there, but I understand what your saying. What I was saying was only that Logitech released a new gizmo that people have a higher expectation then they should based on prior products that are completely different from the new gizmo! The Apple and Oranges thing. One can't make comparisons of the Controller based on past performance of an SB3.

There is a past great example of over expectation. Because some idiot decided to call a full duplex two way radio with a keypad that had access to the telephone system a Cellular "Phone", everybody expected the Cell Phone to have the reliability that they had come to expect from Ma Bell, IE no dropped calls. It’s a radio not a landline, get over it. And people bought those first generation phones anyway, and they are still being improved today.

Another good example is the iPhone. Why in the world would it be released without 3G when 3G was available and already in wide use? It has a build in iPod, but no stereo Bluetooth. Things my BlackJack already had, but I still bought an iPhone. I needed its ability to view real web pages not just mobile web pages.

The Controller is the first release of a new Gizmo. It is not as large as an SB3 (read not a lot of antenna options), it is mobile (not left in one place with a good signal), many times has ones hand over the antenna, is saddled with over expectations (IMHO), and more importantly is trying to be used outside its intended purpose by many. As an example, it was never designed to be used poolside (no outdoor display and not waterproof). I have three separate pool play lists or use random mix while in the pool. Yes my Controller is outside, but it is under the covered part of the deck laying beside a towel if somebody or I want a change in Music.

The Controller works great for me but maybe that is because I know and more importantly except its limitations and maximize its use inside those boundaries. It is after all a wireless device and as such they all have limitations. My best advice for Duet users is to maximize ones WiFi network. This will allow one to use the Controller to the best of its ability.

miguelk
2008-06-24, 11:26
Well I spoke last night to Logitech tech support, and they acknowledged that there is a problem with some of the controllers. Although I'm outside the 30 day period, they agreed that i could ship the controller back to them, and they would determine whether it was one of the earlier models, and if so, they will replace it. If not, well, then I'm not sure...

At least i'll always know what time it is in that part of the room.

miguelk
2008-06-24, 11:35
And to the person who suggested the Buffalo router, thanks...unfortunately Buffalo has been legally enjoined from selling any wireless networking products in the US (see their website...)

pfarrell
2008-06-24, 11:44
miguelk wrote:
> And to the person who suggested the Buffalo router,
> thanks...unfortunately Buffalo has been legally enjoined from selling
> any wireless networking products in the US (see their website...)

Yes, but the internal chipset are in many routers, including the WRT54GL
from Linksys. You can use Tomoto or DD-WRT and live long and prosper.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

miguelk
2008-06-25, 09:26
Thanks. I will try dd-wrt on my old linksys router and see what happens. thx.

mvalera
2008-06-25, 10:21
Skip dd-wrt.

Tomato is easily the best open source firmware.

Mike

mctubster
2008-06-26, 01:13
Skip dd-wrt.

Tomato is easily the best open source firmware.

Mike

It is, I use the afore mentioned Wireless Router, Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 ... it really punches a signal, and runs Tomato very well. I can run hundreds / thousands of connections through it at 18Mb/s ... CPU sits at 20%. Never crashes, never needs restarting. dd-wrt maxes out the CPU doing the same kind of traffic and eventually dies.

You will easily see a doubling in range in my experience .... I replaced a WRT-54GL with it (same internal chipset, but missing the second stage wireless amp)

Prob not avail in the US cause it breaks power output specs? Mail order from the UK!

miguelk
2008-07-07, 13:03
So...since I last posted, I purchased a Linksys WRT54G loaded with Tomato firmware. Got the signal strength up to nearly 70%, but that's with turning the power on the router up to 250 (goes up to 251). Controller now works better, and system generally runs now without skipping. BUT...every hour or two I get the message: "Connection Reset by Host". And i have to reboot both the controller and the SB3 to get it to work properly again. Anyone have any idea what that's about? Besides using the best channel, are there any other settings in Tomato which might help improve my reception?

Also, is there any danger to running my Linksys with the 250 setting? There's no fan on it...will it burn out?

Finally, in an effort to boost my signal even further, I've ordered another Linksys WRT54G loaded with DD-WRT firmware, which gives the option of using the router as a repeater. Has anyone here done that?

Thanks.

mctubster
2008-07-07, 14:44
So...since I last posted, I purchased a Linksys WRT54G loaded with Tomato firmware. Got the signal strength up to nearly 70%, but that's with turning the power on the router up to 250 (goes up to 251). Controller now works better, and system generally runs now without skipping. BUT...every hour or two I get the message: "Connection Reset by Host". And i have to reboot both the controller and the SB3 to get it to work properly again. Anyone have any idea what that's about? Besides using the best channel, are there any other settings in Tomato which might help improve my reception?

Also, is there any danger to running my Linksys with the 250 setting? There's no fan on it...will it burn out?

Finally, in an effort to boost my signal even further, I've ordered another Linksys WRT54G loaded with DD-WRT firmware, which gives the option of using the router as a repeater. Has anyone here done that?

Thanks.

From memory I wouldn't run the Router at that power level, in fact I think some of the higher levels actually reduce the output? You my do some damage in the load term. Search in google and you will find answers. Instead of cranking the power up (which also cranks up the noise btw), try placing the router higher (or at least the antenna) / in a different position.

Connection reset by host means that one end of the tcp conn, (generally the opposite end to where the error was received), has deliberately killed the connection, but in a bad way. Yes as in the wireless dropped out or maybe something else on the host has happened?

I use my WRT54G as a bridge. Not sure how to get it to be a repeater. BTW repeating wireless halves the throughput

Steve

lanierb
2008-07-07, 15:39
I would suggest:

(1) Call Logitech to rule out a defective SBC. It happens, and it might just be the problem.

(2) Wireless signal of 70% should be plenty. If the SBC is not defective, then I'm wondering if you're getting wireless interference. You should really download netstumbler and see what else is out there. (Actually, tomato can do this too, but only at the point where the router is -- do a wireless site survey.) At very least, try changing wireless channels (trivial in tomato). Try channel 1 or channel 11 (these are the only ones that don't overlap 6 at all, the most common channel).

mvalera
2008-07-08, 09:25
So...since I last posted, I purchased a Linksys WRT54G loaded with Tomato firmware. Got the signal strength up to nearly 70%, but that's with turning the power on the router up to 250 (goes up to 251). Controller now works better, and system generally runs now without skipping. BUT...every hour or two I get the message: "Connection Reset by Host". And i have to reboot both the controller and the SB3 to get it to work properly again. Anyone have any idea what that's about? Besides using the best channel, are there any other settings in Tomato which might help improve my reception?

Also, is there any danger to running my Linksys with the 250 setting? There's no fan on it...will it burn out?

Finally, in an effort to boost my signal even further, I've ordered another Linksys WRT54G loaded with DD-WRT firmware, which gives the option of using the router as a repeater. Has anyone here done that?

Thanks.

Ya as Mctubster pointed out, from what I understand, you actually increase the noise when you drive the wireless radios that hot. I would not personally go higher than double the stock power.

If you need more gain buy larger antennas.

Mike

mvalera
2008-07-08, 09:32
http://ask.metafilter.com/89248/Safe-milliwatt-setting-for-Linksys-WRT54G

miguelk
2008-07-08, 15:51
Do you have some suggestions as to where I can get a high gain antenna? When I drop the mw below 250 the signal deteriorates significantly (not only on the signal strength--it skips, and the controller won't stay connected).

RichNY
2008-07-08, 20:03
many times has ones hand over the antenna, [/QUOTE]

So where exactly shouldnt ones hand be to not cover the antenna; front, back, top, bottom, etc....

mctubster
2008-07-09, 03:49
Do you have some suggestions as to where I can get a high gain antenna? When I drop the mw below 250 the signal deteriorates significantly (not only on the signal strength--it skips, and the controller won't stay connected).

Can we get a better understanding of the layout of the building in which you are having issues, along with the location of the access point and the materials from which the building is constructed.

At what distance does the controller drop out? How many walls? Do you have a laptop that works reliably at the same distance / place?

Steve

miguelk
2008-07-09, 03:59
I am in a fairly large apartment. My router is at the opposite end of the apt from where the Squeezebox is located. Laptops work fine in the same location, and the Squeezebox itself would get about a 50% signal if set to the default power setting. At 50%, I experienced a fair number of dropouts, and the controller barely worked at all. BTW, Logitech replaced my controller, so in theory I am using one without any hardware issue.

Of course, for the amount of $ I've spent on routers and various non-functional range extenders, I could have had the place wired.

bpa
2008-07-09, 04:12
Laptop usually have their antenna in the screen which is vertical when in use. SBR antenna will be smaller but also is normally horizontal.

This means the router antenna being vertical - the signal field will be "seen" by laptop better than SBR. Try putting SBR on its side and change orientation to see if there are differences in signal quality.

Try placing the router closer to ceiling as this will also ensure signal will not encounter as much furniture etc compared to a router at or near ground level.

I also have problems with where broadband enters house so I used Homeplug from modem to router to enable the wireless router to be placed more central.

miguelk
2008-07-09, 07:21
Can you explain how you use homeplug?

bpa
2008-07-09, 07:33
Homeplug provides networking over mains.

I have a broadband modem and a wireless router so I connect the two together using Ethernet over mains.


Broadband modem-> Ethernet-> Homeplug-> mains -> Homeplug-> Ethernet->Wireless router

mvalera
2008-07-09, 16:59
Do you have some suggestions as to where I can get a high gain antenna? When I drop the mw below 250 the signal deteriorates significantly (not only on the signal strength--it skips, and the controller won't stay connected).

http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?level=SK&id=774920&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Shopping%20Comp-_-Datafeed-_-Technology

miguelk
2008-07-16, 19:59
I hesitate to jinx it, but I think I've solved my wireless signal strength issue. Both the controller and the SB3 seem to be working smoothly.For the benefit of anyone else having similar problems: I went back to my prior router (a d-link dir-635) as my "ap" router, then I configured a motorola router set up with dd-wrt, and used the repeater mode. 99% signal strength.

I understand from a prior post that using a repeater halves the bandwith, but apparently I must have enough to spare, as it's working well now with no skipping.

Thanks to all who tried to help me solve my problem.

iwalker
2008-07-31, 01:43
I eventually gave up with my Duet, and swapped it for an SB3 and some small active speakers. Main system is Transporter -> ATC SCM 100

Having had serious problems with streaming to my Transporter, I FINALLY found a solution which may help others:-

- replaced Netgear Router ( 8 months old, but suspected it was faulty)
- added a Hawking Range extender plus high gain directional antenna
( these are sited next to ther PC and router)

The TP is located 25m from the router, and on a different ring main, so unfortunately, mains networking is not an option.

Signal strength is now 70%,( up from 20%) but as I have discovered, this is NOT the most important thing. With the range extender sited nearer the TP signal strength was 100%, but the stuttering and dropouts were very bad.

The server and network health test ( help section on Squeezecenter) finally enabled me to work out the best location for the range extender and high gain (12dB)directional antenna. This took me a couple of days!

I can now stream at 2000kbps with 100% success. All files are Apple lossless.

I will have to live without the fancy Duet remote, but I believe this product is fundamentally flawed, as it appears to offer very poor reception compared with TP, probably as it does not have external aerials.

Hope this is of some help!

thesil
2008-07-31, 07:14
Similar problems here. Works fine for awhile, then I will get the dreaded "blue Icon" then it freezes. I have to take the battery out and restart. It's a pain. Your right, for $299, this should work seamlessly

pfarrell
2008-07-31, 09:24
iwalker wrote:
> I will have to live without the fancy Duet remote, but I believe this
> product is fundamentally flawed, as it appears to offer very poor
> reception compared with TP, probably as it does not have external
> aerials.

You got one of the reasons correct, the TP has two giant antennas.
The other is that the TP is powered from the AC mains, and can thus
afford fancier circuits for WiFi.

I would differ with your "fundamentally flawed" claim. My Controller
works great for me. I think more correctly that the Controller has
limits, which were expected when the engineering was done, and it may
not work for all folks.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

iwalker
2008-07-31, 15:20
A good point about the AC mains, and perhaps my 'fundamentally flawed' comment was a bit strong! This was born out of frustration that I couldn't get mine to work.


Good to hear that some people are enjoying the Controller.