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random_tox
2008-05-21, 20:55
I'm a loyal customer. I've owned at least 5 Squeezeboxes over the years and currently (try to) use two SB3's in my home, and softsqueeze at the office. I've been an advocate and sold many friends on the products and concepts of Slimdevices. I still plan to go big and get a Transporter just as soon as there is software to match that incredible piece of equipment.

But I'm after a long, blissful, year of enjoying a well tuned Slimserver 6.5.something and ignoring updates, I made the mistake of trying 7.0. I'm going to vent. I'm sincerely not trying to offend, but maybe light a fire.

Here's my list of what is dumb:

-Software reliability: Please call a beta version (buggy, untested, unreliable, even though a few of us geeks can get it running) a beta version. Don't make it the default download until you have some indication that it is going to work for your customers. Helping troubleshoot my job and not a hobby I enjoy when I'm trying to listen to music. and I just want the latest version that will actually work. 6.5.x, right? 7.x is beta. Release candidate, tops. Your not under the same pressure as a software company to release, release, release. You're hardware is only as reliable as your software and sales will suffer.

-Effects and animation: You know how we all make fun of flaming animated .GIF images on crappy amature webpages? Same thing. Just because it's neat doesn't mean you have to put it in. These features serve only to remind us that you've been using your resources to integrate spinning CD images instead of fixing bugs and improving performance. It's a browser interface, not a feature film. Present the information quickly and orderly. No one is impressed by a chunky, slow transparent overlay that doesn't present anything useful. Why do you think Vista (Window XP, Millenium Ed.) is tanking?

-Settings: I was very happy to read that supposedly 7.X would keep my previous settings. Wrong. I can't even get it to run without a complete nuke of the previous install, which nukes my settings. Also, it's dumb that after all these years, I still have to set each player's settings individually each time I "upgrade" versions. Give us a persistant default player settings interface as well as individual player settings. And god, would someone re-org the settings? There must be 50 pages worth that are in nearly random order.

-Slim Network requirement: Give me a break. I'm sure many people find the Slim Network a useful service, but there is no reason these devices can't operate without any communication beyond their local network if that's what the user wants. I don't want to give you an address, or password, or info about when my player is on or off, or anything. You got my money and that the only demographic info you need.

-tray icon: Just what the world needs. One more tray icon that does nothing useful (unless you count "starting... starting... starting" indefinately until I uninstall/reinstall as useful). What is the fascination? Did the marketing department come up with it? Why does it take 13 megs of memory 24/7 to tell me nothing I don't already know?

-Slim/Logitech: You guys/gals are acting dumb. How can the company that hatched such a brilliant product concept still be mired with such a crappy, unfriendly software implimentation? I'm a vetran technology pro and I find your stuff is a pain in the butt. How can I recommend it to technically moderate family and friends that need something to be intuitive and easy and works out of the box? Every home should have several of you devices, but your ship will sink first if you take another x years to publish a decent interface.

-Me: I'm dumb for wasting my time writing this. Won't change anything. Probably get sensored.

-Me again: I'm also dumb for "upgrading" to 7. Let me know when it's 7.5.x. I'll be back on 6.5ish.

Mitch Harding
2008-05-21, 21:37
7.0 works great for me, as does 7.0.1.

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 10:55 PM, random_tox
<random_tox.39smtz1211428801 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> I'm a loyal customer. I've owned at least 5 Squeezeboxes over the years
> and currently (try to) use two SB3's in my home, and softsqueeze at the
> office. I've been an advocate and sold many friends on the products and
> concepts of Slimdevices. I still plan to go big and get a Transporter
> just as soon as there is software to match that incredible piece of
> equipment.
>
> But I'm after a long, blissful, year of enjoying a well tuned
> Slimserver 6.5.something and ignoring updates, I made the mistake of
> trying 7.0. I'm going to vent. I'm sincerely not trying to offend, but
> maybe light a fire.
>
> Here's my list of what is dumb:
>
> -Software reliability: Please call a beta version (buggy, untested,
> unreliable, even though a few of us geeks can get it running) a beta
> version. Don't make it the default download until you have some
> indication that it is going to work for your customers. Helping
> troubleshoot my job and not a hobby I enjoy when I'm trying to listen
> to music. and I just want the latest version that will actually work.
> 6.5.x, right? 7.x is beta. Release candidate, tops. Your not under the
> same pressure as a software company to release, release, release.
> You're hardware is only as reliable as your software and sales will
> suffer.
>
> -Effects and animation: You know how we all make fun of flaming
> animated .GIF images on crappy amature webpages? Same thing. Just
> because it's neat doesn't mean you have to put it in. These features
> serve only to remind us that you've been using your resources to
> integrate spinning CD images instead of fixing bugs and improving
> performance. It's a browser interface, not a feature film. Present the
> information quickly and orderly. No one is impressed by a chunky, slow
> transparent overlay that doesn't present anything useful. Why do you
> think Vista (Window XP, Millenium Ed.) is tanking?
>
> -Settings: I was very happy to read that supposedly 7.X would keep my
> previous settings. Wrong. I can't even get it to run without a complete
> nuke of the previous install, which nukes my settings. Also, it's dumb
> that after all these years, I still have to set each player's settings
> individually each time I "upgrade" versions. Give us a persistant
> default player settings interface as well as individual player
> settings. And god, would someone re-org the settings? There must be 50
> pages worth that are in nearly random order.
>
> -Slim Network requirement: Give me a break. I'm sure many people find
> the Slim Network a useful service, but there is no reason these devices
> can't operate without any communication beyond their local network if
> that's what the user wants. I don't want to give you an address, or
> password, or info about when my player is on or off, or anything. You
> got my money and that the only demographic info you need.
>
> -tray icon: Just what the world needs. One more tray icon that does
> nothing useful (unless you count "starting... starting... starting"
> indefinately until I uninstall/reinstall as useful). What is the
> fascination? Did the marketing department come up with it? Why does it
> take 13 megs of memory 24/7 to tell me nothing I don't already know?
>
> -Slim/Logitech: You guys/gals are acting dumb. How can the company that
> hatched such a brilliant product concept still be mired with such a
> crappy, unfriendly software implimentation? I'm a vetran technology pro
> and I find your stuff is a pain in the butt. How can I recommend it to
> technically moderate family and friends that need something to be
> intuitive and easy and works out of the box? Every home should have
> several of you devices, but your ship will sink first if you take
> another x years to publish a decent interface.
>
> -Me: I'm dumb for wasting my time writing this. Won't change anything.
> Probably get sensored.
>
> -Me again: I'm also dumb for "upgrading" to 7. Let me know when it's
> 7.5.x. I'll be back on 6.5ish.
>
>
> --
> random_tox
>
> __________________________________
> www.discogs.com/user/Random_Tox
> www.discogs.com/user/Random_Digits
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> random_tox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2096
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47952
>
>

pfarrell
2008-05-21, 21:50
random_tox wrote:
> trying 7.0. I'm going to vent. I'm sincerely not trying to offend, but
> maybe light a fire.

I've been running 7.0 for ages. It works fine for me.
Debian, mostly dedicated server.

I keep the unstable testing repository in my sources list, and keep
trying the known unstable stuff.

I have far fewer problems with the beta code than you seem to be with
the production code.

I don't know the reason, but my experience doesn't match yours at all,
not even in the least bit.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

peter
2008-05-21, 22:25
On Wed, 21 May 2008 20:55:15 -0700, "random_tox"
<random_tox.39smtz1211428801 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> said:
>
> I'm a loyal customer. I've owned at least 5 Squeezeboxes over the years
> and currently (try to) use two SB3's in my home, and softsqueeze at the
> office. I've been an advocate and sold many friends on the products and
> concepts of Slimdevices. I still plan to go big and get a Transporter
> just as soon as there is software to match that incredible piece of
> equipment.
>
> But I'm after a long, blissful, year of enjoying a well tuned
> Slimserver 6.5.something and ignoring updates, I made the mistake of
> trying 7.0. I'm going to vent. I'm sincerely not trying to offend, but
> maybe light a fire.

So, apparently you do like 6.5?

> Here's my list of what is dumb:
>
> -Software reliability: Please call a beta version (buggy, untested,
> unreliable, even though a few of us geeks can get it running) a beta
> version. Don't make it the default download until you have some
> indication that it is going to work for your customers. Helping
> troubleshoot my job and not a hobby I enjoy when I'm trying to listen
> to music. and I just want the latest version that will actually work.
> 6.5.x, right? 7.x is beta. Release candidate, tops. Your not under the
> same pressure as a software company to release, release, release.
> You're hardware is only as reliable as your software and sales will
> suffer.

I've had no such problems.

> -Effects and animation: You know how we all make fun of flaming
> animated .GIF images on crappy amature webpages? Same thing. Just
> because it's neat doesn't mean you have to put it in. These features
> serve only to remind us that you've been using your resources to
> integrate spinning CD images instead of fixing bugs and improving
> performance. It's a browser interface, not a feature film. Present the
> information quickly and orderly. No one is impressed by a chunky, slow
> transparent overlay that doesn't present anything useful. Why do you
> think Vista (Window XP, Millenium Ed.) is tanking?

Which animated gifs are we talking about?
They must be really subtle cause I don't notice them.
Realistically, most people do like a shiny webpage, and for me SC is as
quick as SS was.

> -Settings: I was very happy to read that supposedly 7.X would keep my
> previous settings. Wrong. I can't even get it to run without a complete
> nuke of the previous install, which nukes my settings. Also, it's dumb
> that after all these years, I still have to set each player's settings
> individually each time I "upgrade" versions. Give us a persistant
> default player settings interface as well as individual player
> settings. And god, would someone re-org the settings? There must be 50
> pages worth that are in nearly random order.

That's a very angry feature request you're writing.
I don't mind a reinstall myself as long as it's limited to major version
upgrades.

> -Slim Network requirement: Give me a break. I'm sure many people find
> the Slim Network a useful service, but there is no reason these devices
> can't operate without any communication beyond their local network if
> that's what the user wants. I don't want to give you an address, or
> password, or info about when my player is on or off, or anything. You
> got my money and that the only demographic info you need.

SC works fine without squeezenetwork.

> -tray icon: Just what the world needs. One more tray icon that does
> nothing useful (unless you count "starting... starting... starting"
> indefinately until I uninstall/reinstall as useful). What is the
> fascination? Did the marketing department come up with it? Why does it
> take 13 megs of memory 24/7 to tell me nothing I don't already know?

Ah, you're a veteran Windows user!

> -Slim/Logitech: You guys/gals are acting dumb. How can the company that
> hatched such a brilliant product concept still be mired with such a
> crappy, unfriendly software implimentation? I'm a vetran technology pro
> and I find your stuff is a pain in the butt. How can I recommend it to
> technically moderate family and friends that need something to be
> intuitive and easy and works out of the box? Every home should have
> several of you devices, but your ship will sink first if you take
> another x years to publish a decent interface.

They don't seem to be sinking very hard, do they? AFAICT the duet is a
major success.

> -Me: I'm dumb for wasting my time writing this. Won't change anything.
> Probably get sensored.

You probably mean 'censored', no, this kind of rants pop up occasionally
to bore us all, they're not censored. The threads are closed if they're
too inflammatory, that's not censorship. I don't think your's will be,
though.

> -Me again: I'm also dumb for "upgrading" to 7. Let me know when it's
> 7.5.x. I'll be back on 6.5ish.

Funny thing is, that this sort of rant probably shows how strongly
people feel about their squeezeboxes, which is a good thing in itself.
It's hard to please everyone, businesses go broke trying.

Regards,
Peter

mherger
2008-05-21, 22:46
> I'm a loyal customer.

Great! I'm sorry to hear you've experienced such a disappointment.

> I'm going to vent.

I hope venting helped you. Because with the little information you give us
about your issue it will be hard for us to help you. Let's give it a try...

> -Software reliability: Please call a beta version (buggy, untested,
> unreliable, even though a few of us geeks can get it running) a beta
> version.

We do. The SC7 launch proved to be one of the most stable releases ever.
There will always be problems we can't test ahead. If you're in the
unlucky bunch, please give us _information_, so we can investigate.

> -Effects and animation: You know how we all make fun of flaming
> animated .GIF images on crappy amature webpages? Same thing.

At least you seem to have successfully installed SC, have it up and
running and were able to change the skin (Default doesn't have any
spinning CD animations). Great news! Up to this point I thought you didn't
even get SC running on your system.

> -Settings: I was very happy to read that supposedly 7.X would keep my
> previous settings. Wrong.

Wrong. It does. If it didn't for you, we'll have to investigate why it
didn't.

> I can't even get it to run without a complete
> nuke of the previous install, which nukes my settings.

I hope you have a backup ready? We'll very likely be able to import those
settings if you're interested and willing.

> And god, would someone re-org the settings? There must be 50
> pages worth that are in nearly random order.

Hey, that's exactly what we did: we re-organized them, to give them a bit
more sense. But that's in the Default skin. If you opt for one of the old
skins, you'll get the old behaviour. That's why they are still there: some
prefer the old skins with their own behaviour.

> -Slim Network requirement

That's optional, no requirement. There's a "Skip" button if you don't want
to use SN.

> -tray icon: Just what the world needs. One more tray icon that does
> nothing useful

Again: optional. Remove it from the startup menu and be happy without.

> -Slim/Logitech: You guys/gals are acting dumb.

No comment. Won't even read the rest of this paragraph.

> -Me: I'm dumb for wasting my time writing this.

Correct. If you had invested that time in telling us what actually is
wrong with your installation you might have fixed it already.

> -Me again: I'm also dumb for "upgrading" to 7. Let me know when it's
> 7.5.x. I'll be back on 6.5ish.

Your choice. 7.5 won't have your issue fixed unless you tell us about it.

Michael

SuperQ
2008-05-21, 22:54
One of my favorite quotes in the tech industry is this.

"Works for me, not a bug."

Seriously, 7.0 works great. If you don't like the new UI, just use Classic skin.

lhmperth
2008-05-22, 00:26
I must say, I can't complain about SC7 either. It's working fine for me and I have not encountered any problems. Combine it with my new Duet, and I'm in love :-)

bonze
2008-05-22, 04:48
me want animated gifs.

Which skin uses them?

Edit: just found fishbone.....

bobkoure
2008-05-22, 05:15
Y'know, this rant, with absolutely no information about the equipment, or even OS, being used brings me back to my days of working in a motorcycle shop. On Saturdays, I was often at the parts counter, and there'd always be a couple of customers who'd want parts without mentioning exactly what kind of bike these parts might go into.
I tried just asking "what bike is this for?"
And eventually got the response (from one customer) "Well, my bike of course!" And he clearly thought I was an idiot.
So then I tried humor - "How long is a piece of string?".
Usually, customers would look puzzled, then understand and give me the info - until one guy (a Velocette guy - can't trust them, I guess) responded with "That depends on which end you measure from, doesn't it?"
So I finally ended up with the very boring "Year, make, and model, please?"


I forgot to mention - the 7.0 betas worked fine for me (other than having a run-in with Symantec AntiVirus), I switched between 6.5 and 7.0 repeatedly, and there was no problem in upgrading (downgrading was a different story). No problem with 7.0 final. No problems with the 7.01 betas (but that was from the 7.0 final, not 6.5. Minor scan problems with 7.1 alpha, but a downgrade to the then-current 7.01 beta worked just fine. All this on a windows 2K server, BTW.

apb
2008-05-22, 08:47
This seems like a rant to me too. About the only thing I agree with is the SqueezeNetwork requirement. I don't see why I need to tell Logitech my Sirius user name and password in order to listen to Sirius on my Transporter. It seems like a major breach of privacy and an additional unnecessary point of failure for the system. As a matter of fact, I was trying to get support for an issue with the SqueezeNetwork site and the support person was asking me for my Sirius password over the phone! I really wish the SqueezeNetwork was optional for those people who want to use its services, rather than required for all 3rd party streaming integrations.

aubuti
2008-05-22, 10:50
This seems like a rant to me too. About the only thing I agree with is the SqueezeNetwork requirement. I don't see why I need to tell Logitech my Sirius user name and password in order to listen to Sirius on my Transporter. It seems like a major breach of privacy and an additional unnecessary point of failure for the system. As a matter of fact, I was trying to get support for an issue with the SqueezeNetwork site and the support person was asking me for my Sirius password over the phone! I really wish the SqueezeNetwork was optional for those people who want to use its services, rather than required for all 3rd party streaming integrations.
How do you propose distinguishing paid-up Sirius users such as yourself from riff-raff like me who haven't paid? If you want to listen on your SB/Transporter, then you need the go-between of SqueezeNetwork to put the Sirius content into a form your Transporter can understand, and how are they to assure Sirius that they're only streaming to paid subscribers? Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious, but I don't think so.

iPhone
2008-05-22, 10:56
I'm a loyal customer.
Glad to hear some good news.

I still plan to go big and get a Transporter just as soon as there is software to match that incredible piece of equipment.
I am having a problem with this statement because the Transporter and its interface software have been good from the start while only getting better.

Here's my list of what is dumb:
Again having trouble with the line title, it is more a list of what one has not taken the time to understand.

-Software reliability: Please call a beta version (buggy, untested, unreliable, even though a few of us geeks can get it running) a beta version. Don't make it the default download until you have some indication that it is going to work for your customers.
Every single version is marked for what it is. Nobody put a gun to anybody's head to go to the Beta section and download a non-official version. SC 7.0.1 is clearly marked as Official/Gold/Production/Current and only required if one has a Duet. If you don't have a Duet use SS 6.5.4 Gold! Anything above 7.0.1 is clearly marked as Beta/Development with 7.1 being the latest download without going to nightly versions. All are again clearly marked and not supported by Tech Support. Speaking of Tech Support, did you call or E-mail them when you ran into problems?

You're hardware is only as reliable as your software and sales will suffer.
Does not appear to be the case when Logitech can't build Duets, Controllers, and Receivers fast enough to keep up with current demand. Which again leads me to believe SC 7.0.1 is good. Personally I had a few glitches now and then with SS 6.5.4 but have had no issues since moving to SC 7.x.

-Effects and animation: You know how we all make fun of flaming animated .GIF images on crappy amateur WebPages? Same thing. Just because it's neat doesn't mean you have to put it in.
Only if "You" want them. Keep the SC default skin or even fall back to the SS 6.5.4 Classic Skin by using URL http://127.0.0.1:9000/classic/ with SC 7.0.1


-Settings: I was very happy to read that supposedly 7.X would keep my previous settings. Wrong.
The way to lose ones setting is to do a complete uninstall first! Yes a select few setting did not come over with the upgrade, but those are probably ones that are not done in the same manor in SC. And the new setting page is MUCH better then the old one, but again if you like the old one, use the Classic Skin!

-Slim Network requirement: Give me a break.
Incorrect, not required. Without it one will lose some nice additional features.

-tray icon: Just what the world needs.
A "Techie" should have no problem turning off a simple tray icon and even removing it from the Windows startup menu!

-Slim/Logitech: You guys/gals are acting dumb. How can the company that hatched such a brilliant product concept still be mired with such a crappy, unfriendly software implementation? I'm a veteran technology pro and I find your stuff is a pain in the butt.
Very strong and inaccurate statement, ever stop to think about everything the software has to do so you can enjoy your music?

-Me: I'm dumb for wasting my time writing this. Won't change anything. Probably get censored.
Can things be improved and made better? They always can. And I for one have to give Logitech credit for keeping the Slim Devices staff in place and letting them keep improving the software and product daily. I wish all the companies I dealt with did this. The only dumb thing I see as a waste of time was all the text without one question from you or specific request for help with something. Again ask specific questions in the Forum instead of making inaccurate statements or call tech support when you do not understand something.

apb
2008-05-22, 11:21
How do you propose distinguishing paid-up Sirius users such as yourself from riff-raff like me who haven't paid? If you want to listen on your SB/Transporter, then you need the go-between of SqueezeNetwork to put the Sirius content into a form your Transporter can understand, and how are they to assure Sirius that they're only streaming to paid subscribers? Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious, but I don't think so.

Uhm, Sirius controls it's rights via it own log in and password. As long as the SC has some way of storing and sending this information, there would be no need for SN to be in the way at all. If the there needs to be some sort of transcoding for things to work gracefully, I don't see why SC can't do it as well (it does all sorts of on-the-fly transcodings already). About the only advantage that SN provides that I can see is the ability to listen to 3rd party streaming media if your SC server goes down. However, if my SC server machine is down I have much bigger issues and probably wouldn't be listening to music at that time anyway.

exile
2008-05-22, 11:34
I know that it's venting for the most part but I think the main point is quite valid. I too am a loyal customer with three boxes and thousands of hours of musical enjoyment under my belt due to the revolutionary squeezeserver.

however, I can't recommend this product to any of my 'normal' friends- i.e.- friends who don't have a very solid grasp of computers and who also have a near obession to tweaking server software and/or music tags. I live in san francisco and several of my friends are IT professionals and I don't think i would recommend the product to those folks either. maybe that's mainly due to the fact that most of my friends have kids and there's just not enough time in the day for such a trivial activity as tweaking a music server. for myself, I find it endlessly challenging so I actually enjoy the time spent improving my squeezecenter. But it's just not a mass market product...yet. I think in time it will be but that time has not come.

oh, and by the way-the spinning disk icon in the default skin could possibly be the dumbest improvement ever made with the server software.

i would argue that efforts should be made to streamline the server software as much as possible. less add ons-not more. sometimes that pesky squeezecenter is hogging 80-90% of my computer's brain power when executing certain commands. that to me does not seem like a good thing.

kdf
2008-05-22, 11:59
Uhm, Sirius controls it's rights via it own log in and password.

AND protocols, apis, and source data.



As long as the SC has some way of storing and sending this information, there would be no need for SN to be in the way at all.

SC is open source. If SN (closed source) didn't exist, you would not see Sirius, Rhapsody, et al allowing their protocols to be used for streaming to Squeezeboxen. As long as SC is open source, it needs SN for certain features. I'm fairly sure you will never be forced to use SN aside when from when the providers of services require it.



About the only advantage that SN provides that I can see is the ability to listen to 3rd party streaming media if your SC server goes down.

It is far more than you see on the surface. What I've said above is a very simplified explanation of what SN makes accessible.

-k

Mitch Harding
2008-05-22, 12:06
For what it's worth, I just use mine to listen to music. I spend no
time tweaking it.

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 1:34 PM, exile
<exile.39trcb1211481301 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
> however, I can't recommend this product to any of my 'normal' friends-
> i.e.- friends who don't have a very solid grasp of computers and who
> also have a near obession to tweaking server software and/or music
> tags. I live in san francisco and several of my friends are IT
> professionals and I don't think i would recommend the product to those
> folks either. maybe that's mainly due to the fact that most of my
> friends have kids and there's just not enough time in the day for such
> a trivial activity as tweaking a music server. for myself, I find it
> endlessly challenging so I actually enjoy the time spent improving my
> squeezecenter. But it's just not a mass market product...yet. I think
> in time it will be but that time has not come.

mherger
2008-05-22, 12:14
> oh, and by the way-the spinning disk icon in the default skin could
> possibly be the dumbest improvement ever made with the server software.

I've spent quite a few hours working on the skin. But I still don't know
where you see that spinning disk. Either I've watched it for too long and
am getting blind on that spot, or I'm missing something obvious.

Michael

kdf
2008-05-22, 12:18
>> oh, and by the way-the spinning disk icon in the default skin could
>> possibly be the dumbest improvement ever made with the server software.
>
> I've spent quite a few hours working on the skin. But I still don't know
> where you see that spinning disk. Either I've watched it for too long and
> am getting blind on that spot, or I'm missing something obvious.

spinning disk isn't in Default. It's only in the legacy skins based on EN.
-k

JJZolx
2008-05-22, 12:26
AND protocols, apis, and source data.

SC is open source. If SN (closed source) didn't exist, you would not see Sirius, Rhapsody, et al allowing their protocols to be used for streaming to Squeezeboxen. As long as SC is open source, it needs SN for certain features. I'm fairly sure you will never be forced to use SN aside when from when the providers of services require it.

Would SC's open source licensing preclude binaries built from proprietary code and encapsulating those APIs and protocols from being bundled into the server to make those services work without SqueezeNetwork? If you can use Rhapsody or Sirius services from a PC, then why not through SqueezeCenter?

I go back and forth between thinking that SqueezeNetwork is a very elegant solution to doing these things, and thinking that the whole system, from Squeezebox to LAN to Internet and all the bits and pieces in between, is a bit of a Rube Goldberg contraption.

iPhone
2008-05-22, 12:30
> oh, and by the way-the spinning disk icon in the default skin could
> possibly be the dumbest improvement ever made with the server software.

I've spent quite a few hours working on the skin. But I still don't know
where you see that spinning disk. Either I've watched it for too long and
am getting blind on that spot, or I'm missing something obvious.

Michael

I do not see it either unless everybody is talking about the dot circle to the right of the words, "Loading SqeezeCenter..." and the same dot circle at the top of the PlayList column when it first loads (switch to Classic, then back to SC Default to see these two dot circles). Neither of which stay there, but both resemble the same circle as on the Controller when it wakes up or when one changes players, which could be the idea behind them. If that is the spinning disk they are bitching about, get a Life!

JJZolx
2008-05-22, 12:40
I do not see it either unless everybody is talking about the dot circle to the right of the words, "Loading SqeezeCenter..." and the same dot circle at the top of the PlayList column when it first loads (switch to Classic, then back to SC Default to see these two dot circles). Neither of which stay there, but both resemble the same circle as on the Controller when it wakes up or when one changes players, which could be the idea behind them. If that is the spinning disk they are bitching about, get a Life!

I think it's present in quite a few more places throughout the skin. This is something of a necessity when doing ajax maneuvers in the browser; otherwise the user may not realize that anything is happening after clicking a link or a button. The skin running running in the browser has no way of knowing how long it's going to be before the web server responds to a request - sometimes it's shown for just a split seconds, sometimes many seconds.

exile
2008-05-22, 13:36
i'm referring to the spinning disk icon that pops up when you click on an album while using the fishbone skin.

iPhone
2008-05-22, 13:38
however, I can't recommend this product to any of my 'normal' friends- i.e.- friends who don't have a very solid grasp of computers and who also have a near obession to tweaking server software and/or music tags. I live in san francisco and several of my friends are IT professionals and I don't think i would recommend the product to those folks either. maybe that's mainly due to the fact that most of my friends have kids and there's just not enough time in the day for such a trivial activity as tweaking a music server. for myself, I find it endlessly challenging so I actually enjoy the time spent improving my squeezecenter. But it's just not a mass market product...yet. I think in time it will be but that time has not come.

As for the Duet's time, I have to disagree. It is definitely here. There are more home networks then anyone would care to count. And the cable and DSL companies will come out and setup your WiFi network with up to 5 devices when one upgrades to DLS or Cable Internet.

Where we are probably similar is in the need for our music and tags to be exact and correct. I admit that I am anal when it comes to ripping CDs and tagging my FLAC Files. I have a huge collection, so my server is large and powerful (and I enjoy tweaking and messing with it). But where we are different is in the way this translates into what we think others are able to do. Others could care less and just hit play. No tag corrections, no server tweaking (just the home PC with a 250GB drive running SC), no looking for improvements, just enjoying the music without the need for hunting for a CD.

Not knowing your friends, I still think I have to disagree about your 'normal' friends and especially the ones in IT not being ready or able to use a Duet, Transporter, or Classic. If my younger sister with no common sense or computer skills other then where the power switch is can use an SB3 and Duet, almost anybody can. We had my motherís eightieth birthday party at my house last year and she saw my Squeezeboxes. Now she has a Duet and an SB3 and only asked me if she should get a WiFi network after getting the Duet. I said yes, so she had the Geek Squad install a Linksys router and an Xbox 360. She was able to setup and use the SB3 all by herself. After getting the Duet and asking about WiFi, she had the Geek Squad install and set those pieces up knowing it was over her head. I donít think you are giving your friends enough credit.

These products are consumer products just like anything else. Do they have to know computer basics to use one, it helps unless they have somebody set it all up for them. If one has a computer and has used iTunes, it is not a stretch that one can buy an SB3 and install it. That is what the Tech Support department is for: The folks that need some help after their purchase.

exile
2008-05-22, 17:01
iphone- i agree with you.

where i was coming from was the angle that once someone sets up the basic squeezecenter the temptation to customize and tweak it is very strong due to all of the plugins. But I fully agree that a basic setup is something that anyone can accomplish.

i also think that one of most attractive aspects of the squeezecenter is the customization options (plugins,etc) and I guess that is the area that isn't easily tackled. maybe part of my opinion is formed by a lot of frustration in wanting certain plugins to work on my system but my having to go thru a long process of troubleshooting to get those things to work correctly.

sellars
2008-05-22, 17:28
Hi,
not wanting to chime into the rant here, but are you sure you cannot see the spinning logo? I have attached it for ya ;)



> oh, and by the way-the spinning disk icon in the default skin could
> possibly be the dumbest improvement ever made with the server software.

I've spent quite a few hours working on the skin. But I still don't know
where you see that spinning disk. Either I've watched it for too long and
am getting blind on that spot, or I'm missing something obvious.

Michael

kdf
2008-05-22, 17:53
>
> Hi,
> not wanting to chime into the rant here, but are you sure you cannot
> see the spinning logo? I have attached it for ya ;)

Not to be padantic...well, I guess it is...the original term was "disc".
The "logo" is at best a circle. As already posted, the reference was not,
in fact, about the Default skin.

-k

iPhone
2008-05-22, 21:04
iphone- i agree with you.

where i was coming from was the angle that once someone sets up the basic squeezecenter the temptation to customize and tweak it is very strong due to all of the plugins. But I fully agree that a basic setup is something that anyone can accomplish.

i also think that one of most attractive aspects of the squeezecenter is the customization options (plugins,etc) and I guess that is the area that isn't easily tackled. maybe part of my opinion is formed by a lot of frustration in wanting certain plugins to work on my system but my having to go thru a long process of troubleshooting to get those things to work correctly.

Well from that point of view, I completely understand where you are coming from and what you were trying to say. I only run the plugins I need or use all the time (which are few). I can see why some people complain about CPU usage. Yes it can be high, but most of the time they have every possible plugin running.

If open source has any downside, maybe it is to many plugins for us to tinker and play with. I am glad I stopped programing 20 years ago or I would be up to 4Am every night building code to try on the Squeezebox.

lhmperth
2008-05-22, 23:31
As for the Duet's time, I have to disagree. It is definitely here.

I think I would agree. I am the "cutting edge" technology guy in my family. With time my family will see some of the things I have and if they like it, I'll set it up for them. However, I always have to be careful to only give them stuff they can handle, as they have no technical skills.

The SB3 was not quite ready to roll out to them. However, the Duet is definitely ready for then, even my elderly parents, who will love it. The only thing I would do is to avoid the Squeezenetwork. They will get too confused between the two music sources. Slimdevices would be wise to incorporate Squeezenetwork full into Squeezecentre to have one seamless product (it is increasingly getting there and I would have thought within the next 12 months they would be integrated full if they go at the current pace of integration).

The Duet is the iPod equivalent for home music - I would never have given my parents an MP3 player, but once the iPod came out, we had a product perfect for them. The Duet is the same.

peterw
2008-05-23, 05:13
-Settings: ... it's dumb that after all these years, I still have to set each player's settings individually each time I "upgrade" versions. Give us a persistant default player settings interface as well as individual player settings.


I have a number of Squeezeboxes of various vintages, too. And I, too, don't relish the notion of fiddling with the same settings options on each and every player. That's why I wrote SettingsManager, which, among other things
1) makes it easy to "copy" settings from one player to one or more others
2) lets you save "default local" and "default web" settings groups that will be applied to newly connected players (Logitech/hardware and Web/stream.mp3, respectively), too

http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/SettingsManager.html

-Peter

lanierb
2008-05-23, 10:03
Here's my list of what is dumb...



The thing that always strikes me about posts like these is that the authors *assume* that their problems are common to everyone.

wordy
2008-05-28, 01:57
>Settings: I was very happy to read that supposedly 7.X would keep my
> previous settings. Wrong.[/color]

Wrong. It does. If it didn't for you, we'll have to investigate why it
didn't.
[color=blue]

Everything does not migrate as it should..... certainly, just from the top of my head, I had to reinstall and configure my IRBlaster and Powersave plugins, and also reconfigure my 'now playing' display back into my preferred format - I'm sure there were other things too.

The previous Squeezecentre version was certainly not broken, and had I known that I'd have to spend an hour or so getting everything back how it was, then personally I wouldn't have bothered either.

Admittedly, I can't quite bring myself to get as worked up as the OP, but I would say one or two of his points are valid.

GeeJay
2008-05-29, 19:46
I, too, think the OP had some valid points. When I bought my first Squeezebox a year ago it took quite a bit of tinkering to get it working the way I wanted it. By the time 7.0 was introduced, my setup (3 SB3s and a desktop running XP) was working pretty smoothly.

Thinks went to hell when I upgraded to 7.0. All my settings were lost. My Trackstat data disappeared (took me awhile, but I finally was able to restore that). Sync has been an on-again, off-again issue (works most of the time now that I went back to the Classic skin). I finally got things pretty much back to normal after a few weeks, and the one think that is an improvement for me over 6.5.x is the ability to sync Pandora.

I'm a fanatic about my music, and I enjoy tinkering with these machines (not an IT pro, BTW)...BUT, I hesitate to recommend to my friends who don't share the same fascination (but who unfailingly think the device is cool when they first encounter it). The probability of encountering a problem is pretty high...but any product that has to run on multiple operating platforms and has the capability of doing many things for many people runs that risk.

Despite the frustrations, it's the best product for the money.

And I can't wait to start the frustration all over again once I purchase a Duet LOL!

gutted
2008-06-07, 06:48
I found this thread through a search. I'm considering upgrading to a newer version, and wanted to see if the system will keep my settings or whether I'll have to reconfigure everything again. (Again). And you know what? I can 100% sympathise with the OP on virtually all points raised. I, personally, am not so worked up about it - but that's because some other poor soul has already gone through the effort of upgrading and has encountered all these problems that would otherwise have hit me too.

I love these forums. This community has always been extremely helpful when I've had questions, even when I've had stupid questions where the answers were just a search away... But seriously though - for the most part, I feel the responses have been pretty hard on the OP which I find surprising. So - the OP is more or less letting off steam. He/She has had problems, and isn't describing them with an end to fixing them - OP is just being angry about basically feeling let down about a couple of things. I can *completely* see what they mean! That's why I actually found this thread in the first place! If I didn't know how much of a hassle it was to upgrade (from experience going back several years of SB ownership) then I would have blindly went ahead with new version and - most likely - got myself in same situation as OP.

Here's a list of OP frustrations that I can completely understand:

-Software reliability...
I can't remember a SS upgrade that has gone 100% without problems. A noteable one in my case was due to a brand new bug that actually made listening to music impossible until I rolled back the changes. So I can understand when someone gets annoyed that they've upgraded and hit several problems and has had to downgrade again. Because I've been there.

-Effects and animation...
Ok - so OP and myself have a different opinion on this, I guess. Sure, animations don't impress me that much but it's not something that cause me to be annoyed.

-Settings...
Heh. I am *so* with the OP on this. This is such a valid point, and is the ENTIRE REASON I even found this thread and have felt motivated to respond. This has been a hassle every single upgrade (for me). Reading that the system would keep current settings and then finding that some were still missing would annoy the hell out of me, too. Are there caveats to this? Are they documented? I'd like to avoid this frustration too, please.

-Slim Network requirement...
If the system requires SN to be up and running, then I'm again with OP on this.

-tray icon...
You've got to admit - it's fairly pointless, no? And just because OP (and a considerable percentage of other customers) are on Windows isn't a reason to be facetious.

-Slim/Logitech: You guys/gals...
The point here? Squeezebox is awesome. It requires SS, which in turn means that once you've installed and configured it (typically a couple of hours to get it exactly right, in my experience) then SS is awesome too. I think OP is trying to say that it would be great if you could download SS/SC, install it, then be up and running in 5 minutes without the (frequent) hassle of tinkering to get it set up properly. It doesn't work straight of of the box. I've been using it for 5+ years and it's NEVER been right straight out of the box. I would challenge anyone who says otherwise.

-Me: I'm dumb for wasting my time writing this...
Sadly there was not enough info on any of the issues to know what caused them (and therefore they can't be fixed). And original poster now has downgraded again. But I honestly was pretty shocked at the tone of some of the responses. He got no empathy. He ranted (which wasn't cool) but he had valid points. And yet the majority of the responses were either along the lines of "well it worked for me" or even derogatory.

-Me again: I'm also dumb for "upgrading" to 7...
Once again - I know exactly what this guy means. That's why I'm being really cautious about upgrading. And you know what? It's scary that people have to be so cautious before even considering an upgrade. It's sensible to have an element of caution - but you need to be almost paranoid when considering an upgrade or SS/SC. That can't be right, surely?!

I feel like I've gone on a whole rant myself, which freaks me out a bit. Sorry for that. I just felt (and continue to feel) complete and utter understanding of the frustrations of OP and I was quite shocked by what seems (to me) to be such an unsympathetic attitude that seems to have been adopted in response to those frustrations.

When did things all get so unfriendly?

toby10
2008-06-07, 07:35
Upgrading and keeping settings:
I don't know if SS settings would be migrated as there are new/different folder locations in SC7 for favorites, settings, etc... I started from scratch. Even in SC7 there are at least three different folders to back up (settings, favorites, plugins). I'm guessing (hoping) SD's or a third party plugin writer will eventually introduce a backup/restore routine that will grab/install all such files.

SN is only required for certain Internet Radio services like Sirius, Live365, Pandora, etc... It is not required for other services in SC7 like favorites, ShoutCast, etc...
I suppose a published list of SN dependant services might help.

EDIT: Here is my very unscientific SN test of what services are required by SN to operate within SC7:

These DO require SN:
Live365, Accuradio, BBC (via Staff Picks), Slacker, Sounds & Effects

These do NOT require SN:
Favorites URL's, Staff Picks (except BBC), DI.com, RadioIO, SomaFM, Virgin Radio, Sky.FM, ShoutCast, AlienBBC, RadioTime, Podcasts, Tune In URL

I do not use any other services (Pandora, LastFM, Sirius, XM, Rhapsody) so I cannot test these.

gutted
2008-06-07, 08:28
Thanks, dude. I've got another thread started in "Beginners" about keeping settings. I'll add your response to there, if I may.

And I'm glad that SN doesn't need to be configured before I could use my SB, becaue that would utterly wind me up! Cheers for clearing that up!

dtz
2008-06-08, 18:08
I agree with random-tox but perhaps not as vociferously. After using many betas, releases 7.0 & 7.01, I've reinstalled 6.5.4 and things are much smoother and faster. I've read enough posts about users with similar unhappy experiences and concluded that some of our servers must have some things in common that SC7 doesn't agree with. I am happy though that miost users are pleased with the upgrades. If I get a new computer or if I get ambitious again I may try SC7.1, 7.2, 7.x. But for now I may read some posts, listen to music and save my frustrations for another day.