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Howard Passman
2008-05-06, 04:28
I'm not sure how to put this so it isn't taken as bashing, etc., but when I purchased my Duet what I expected of the Duet wasn't any more or any less of what I would have expected of a CD player. I expected to set it up, follow the instructions and play music. I thought the biggest issue would be burning my CDs. I had hoped to be sitting around in my small amount of spare time and de-stressing by listening to some music. I had no real desire to try and contact tech support or join a forum. It's just not the reason I buy home audio equipment or for that matter any entertainment equipment. I have enough of these types of challenges at work.

After much mucking about I thought I had made a mistake by buying a NetGearNAS Duo to host my music collection and SC. I thought maybe I should just put the whole mess on a PC and be done with it. Surely SC ran flawlessly on a PC and maybe even a plug-in or two would work. So I asked a friend of mine who was the one who got me interested in the Duet in the first place. He's a total techie and loves to mess with this stuff. I spoke with him yesterday and was surprised to find that he was having a host of issues and was feeling the same way I do. He just wants to listen to his music.

I've posted several questions to the forum that I thought would be very simple to answer. Most have gone unanswered. When I read responses to other questions I'm interested in, I either have a hard time figuring out what the person is saying or I try the resolution and don't have a clue why I don't get the same results.

All in all I like the Duet. Most of the time it does play my music files, which is my main reason for wanting it. Also, most of the time none of the other features work properly, which would be cool if they did. I think it a poor showing of Logitech to release a product that is obviously lacking complete development and to then rely on a forum to cover their tech support duties.

I've had my say. I hope no one took offense. I'll continue to scrounge around looking for solutions to my problems instead of relaxing and enjoying my music. I can only hope that some day either the Duet will work as advertised or I'll run across a similar device that does. The whole deal has left a sour taste in my mouth for Logitech and Netgear alike.

Bests to all,

Howard

Skunk
2008-05-06, 05:05
I think it a poor showing of Logitech to release a product that is obviously lacking complete development and to then rely on a forum to cover their tech support duties.


The Duet beta testing was pretty extensive, so it's not like they didn't try. As a tester I can only wish the problems you are having would have happened to me or others so I could have reported them, but my experience is pretty much the opposite of yours- i.e. it just works. The r2049 firmware, or whatever comes with 7.0, wasn't that great, and I did notice big improvements after upgrading to 7.0.1. So if you're having major problems I'd try that, as it's mostly a bug-patch/hot-fix release. It won't be officially released for a couple weeks, but the beta is quite stable for me (honest).

That said, I'm by no means a tech support specialist for this product, and some of the people who work for SD/Logitech that post here aren't tech support specialists either. You should really give SD tech support a call/email if you haven't already.

At least that's what they've said in the past. If that's the case it doesn't make much sense that 'Forums' is the first link under the main link to 'Support', and that the actual phone number is buried in the 'FAQ', rather than a big prominent 'Contact Support' link.

adamslim
2008-05-06, 05:36
Of your threads, the only ones not to have received a reply are the ones re the XM plugin. I presume this is not critical to your purchase and use - there are plenty of other ways of getting internet radio. Unfortunately when you ask something so specific you exclude a lot of people (myself included) who do not use that plugin from helping.

There is a bit of a setup curve, which took me a week or two, before you have things working exactly how you want. However, for me and many others it just works (and I use the beta). Whenever I want music, I get it.

I think that what Logitech may be guilty of is not managing people's expectations. The best solution from a stability perspective and to be able to take advantage of all the plugins is to run SC on a 'real' PC, with a powerful processor and plenty of RAM. You can get it running on many NASs, sure, but you may end up with a cut-down and slower setup. It still works, delivering music and is usually responsive enough, but it's not quite as good.

In terms of 'other features', which do not run correctly for you, what do you mean? If you are talking about third party plugins, which may have been developed before even the Duet came out, that's not entirely surprising. The core features, for browsing and playing music, are fine for me and many others. Maybe this too is a managing expectation thing?

cliveb
2008-05-06, 05:40
The r2049 firmware, or whatever comes with 7.0, wasn't that great, and I did notice big improvements after upgrading to 7.0.1.
Interesting. I am running 7.0 with r2097, and it seems pretty stable to me.

Back to the OP's concerns. It strikes me that the extremely flexible nature of the Slim Devices architecture is its own worst enemy for mass market acceptance. The server software will get installed on a wide variety of PCs and in a wide variety of wireless networks over which Logitech has no control whatsoever. Given what a mess a lot of people's PCs are in (especially Windows ones), it's a miracle that it works as well as it does.

If the Duet is to become a widespread success, I think the next thing Logitech need to do is work on an appliance server device. Perhaps a low power diskless Linux box with a CD drive for ripping (with a bundled AMG subscription to help with tagging), USB ports for external disks (so the user can add whatever disk space they need), an ethernet port, and an optional wireless access point built in.

radish
2008-05-06, 05:48
I think it a poor showing of Logitech to release a product that is obviously lacking complete development and to then rely on a forum to cover their tech support duties.

This seems like a common misconception. This forum is not an official tech support channel, and Logitech are not relying on it to replace support. If you have a problem feel free to post it here and we'll do our best to help but for those trickier issues there's a whole team of people waiting to take your call. Use them.

amcluesent
2008-05-06, 05:58
>when I purchased my Duet what I expected of the Duet wasn't any more or any less of what I would have expected of a CD player<

IMHO, then you were misled/overly optimistic. Network streaming is in 'early adopter' build-out phase, by going for a NAS too you're in a niche within a niche.

Sounds like you're the buyer Sonos is targeting, trading off a 'closed' system architecture for easier setup and charging $300 premium.

jaffacake
2008-05-06, 05:59
This seems like a common misconception. This forum is not an official tech support channel, and Logitech are not relying on it to replace support. If you have a problem feel free to post it here and we'll do our best to help but for those trickier issues there's a whole team of people waiting to take your call. Use them.

I took delivery of my Duet on Thursday, I work until 6pm.

Here in the UK, Logitech Tech support is only open Monday-Friday 9am-6pm - I'm at work.

They don't open at weeekends at all.

For many owners, myself included, the forum is the only option and I agree with the OP that it can be frustrating when your forum threads scroll off page one with zero responses. In fact, I've even been trying to help some new owners out myself whilst the setup details are fresh in my mind.

One of the difficult things with Duet ownership is that a lot of forum and faq searches frequently pull up solutions relating to SlimServer and SB3, not SqueezeCenter and the SBR e.g. holding down the brightness button to do a firmware upgrade. It gets confusing at times.

jensjk
2008-05-06, 07:45
@Howard Passman:

i understand you, and in germany is the problem i little bit bigger. I must
additional translate the forum-threads (the number of German threads is still low). a herman handbook is not available. and a technical englich is heavy.

duet is sharp, but that many small flaws and a hanger can really learn more about the technique employed as with the music.

viele Grüße aus Dresden

Jens

Howard Passman
2008-05-06, 08:04
To address a few comments about my post. I did update to 7.0.1 last night and I can't say how stable it is, but it does seem faster. I now have a weird error when I go to favorites on my controller so it's back to reading the forum for a hint as to why.

The XM plug-in would be my second most vauluable feature for the SB because I was hoping to get rid of my Polk XM receiver to make some room on my rack and of course to get rid of one payment a month to XM (could go to Rhapsody :-)). They still get two others from me :-) Anyway, the XM thing would be nice and it works intermittently from my controller at best. Here today, gone tomorrow as they say.

Switching from SB to my SN is a hit and miss feature. Most of the time if I want to switch back to SB I end up restarting the receiver so I tend to avoid Internet Radio.

I think the reason there is a misconception about the forum is because there is a direct link in Slim Devices web pages. That will pretty much do it and it should be obvious it does. Calling tech support is tough because I work on the east coast of the U.S. and I am at work most of tech supports hours. Also the reason I don't get online much as I state in my signature. I've had very good luck with Logitech support on other products, just not this one.

The most telling post was probably the one that hit the nail right on the head. This product does appear to be in the "build out phase" and is best sold to "early" adopters of the technology. Selling it at retail outlets like Crutchfield or Logitech isn't what I would expect for a product at this stage in it's developement. I think it's great that some folks haven't had a problem at all, but then I question why they are here to begin with. I would hazard a guess that most folks would rather spend their time either listening or doing something else. I may be wrong.

If Logitech is really serious about selling a whole lot of these, then they need to (A) make more of them (I understand there as scarce as hens teeth) and (B) make it so the average home body could plug it in and use it. I realize with any wireless device this is wishfull thinking, but a lot more folks are comfortable with the wireless piece these days, me included.

You read it over and over in this forum, "I really, really want it to work." You would hope Logitech would see the frustration and time spent and get it working at least at the level promised on the box and in the "Quick Set Up Guide" That itself was the funniest bit of literature I've read in forever.

Bests,

Howard

regalma1
2008-05-06, 08:22
I've been struggling with my SB2 for years. I love it when it works but it is not user friendly. The same as most computer technology. It will crash. It will just not work. It will drive you crazy. More than once I've dumped it in frustration.

This is a tech toy. I wish they would sell it as such. It is not everybody's music source. Not yet, maybe someday. But probably not, since the geeks who run this project will just keep adding more unproven technology to it.

One trick I've learned is that when the box is not responding try starting SlimServer, whether from an icon your desktop, or from your start menu (PC users of course). For some reason it won't start up right sometimes.

Technology has been defined as "an idea that doesn't work right yet".

By the way, I am an engineer in new product development. None of this is new to me. We use to fight to get our hardware working right. We are a lot more successful on that side now, but firmware development has more than made up for our success in hardware.

RonM
2008-05-06, 08:34
I'm by no means a techie; however, I have been doing computer things for a long time (my original PC came with 768kb of RAM, each little individual chip plugged directly into the motherboard). I have some degree of comfort with computer fiddling, but my patience has gone way down of late. I prefer to think through an installation, and then do it and hope for no problems. I'm entering the appliance stage of computer life.

So I'm comfortable with some of the early-adopter things. I'd been thinking for some time that I would really like a way to have all my music collection in digital form, accessible to my music equipment. Then I discovered Duet.

Then I read the forums, with lots of issues arising. Of course, I'd already bought the device. It was with trepidation that I entered the setup process. I foresaw the possibility of much time sunk into the setup.

However, it was not to be. Setup went quickly, everything works fine, and I couldn't be happier about it.

My next iteration will be a move to a dedicated server device, exact specs yet to be determined. I might end up regretting that, but a bit more tinkering could be tolerated.

I recognize the forums are not official tech support, but much of the information here (what I've just read, as well as responses to my own queries) has been very helpful. Thank you all!

Ron

Mitch Harding
2008-05-06, 08:42
I've had very few real problems with my SB1, SB2, SB3, SBC, or SBR. I've
had minor issues, which the forums usually clear up quickly. On the other
hand, I wouldn't recommend this product to someone completely uncomfortable
with computers -- my mother, for example. I haven't had to do any extreme
fiddling, but I've had to do a little, on occasion.

Still, I love all of these products and consider them some of the best money
I've ever spent. I listen to far more music now than I did before I owned
them, and it is very liberating having my entire music collection accessible
within moments of picking up the remote.

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Howard Passman <
Howard.Passman.38zuyb1210086301 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> for a product at this stage in it's developement. I think it's great
> that some folks haven't had a problem at all, but then I question why
> they are here to begin with. I would hazard a guess that most folks
> would rather spend their time either listening or doing something else.
> I may be wrong.
>

Howard Passman
2008-05-06, 08:48
Unfortunately *part* of my job is to keep our network and 300+ devices operating. I keep things very simple here so I don't have to constantly tweak everything. I totally agree with the "Appliance" analogy and have said it many times using a "toaster" as a model.

I've been in retail all of my life and I feel I pretty much understand what the average Joe wants from a product and service. I've been in the automotive end of things for 26 years and believe me I've been told, in no uncertain terms, what the buying public wants :-)

Very glad to hear your install went well and everything is working. A bit of caution on the server issue. If you go that way, it puts you one step further from help. At least it has worked that way with the Netgear ReadyNAS Duo. As I mentioned, I was thinking all of my problems might be alieviated by just going to a PC set up, but in my friends case it didn't prove true. Still, if I wasn't using a 3rd party version of SC 7.0 then help might be easier to get. Same with the XM features.

Have fun..

Howard

BTW, my first "PC" was an IBM 360. Let's see how old everyone is :-)

bhaagensen
2008-05-06, 09:07
The same as most computer technology. It will crash. It will just not work. It will drive you crazy. More than once I've dumped it in frustration.

This is a tech toy. I wish they would sell it as such. It is not everybody's music source. Not yet, maybe someday. But probably not, since the geeks who run this project will just keep adding more unproven technology to it.


No, no, no, no, no, no, and no, I couldn't disagree more! I fully acknowledge the fact that some are having more problems than acceptable and that the products can be improved. But those claims are just not true.

Howard Passman
2008-05-06, 09:36
Ya know in a way Regalma1 is actually right. If it has a processor, firmware and software, it is prone to these types of issues. I thought it was really amusing when I bought an HD DVD player (yeah, that was me) and realized I had to wait for it to reboot if I shut it off. Then that made me think of how young people in the 70's used to laugh at how some of us would have to wait for our tubes to warm up before we could play our music. My goodness! Why didn't we buy Solid State devices and get around all the waiting. Now we're waiting again, but this time the devices are fast as lightning, they just need to boot.

I like to quiz folks about all the new technology with this question. If your home appliances like your refrigerator or stove had to be rebooted anywhere from occassionally to constantly, would you keep it or throw it out the door. Computers have made us way more tolerant than we should be. This stuff can work, but it requires manufacturers to complete the "build out" before releasing the product to the public. But oh! Then the next guy will come out with the next greatest toy and we won't be competitive.

Still, it can be done better. I do photography as a hobby and I've used digital SLR cameras for going on ten years. These are coming out at an alarming rate from Nikon and Canon, just to mention a few. Generally, when they hit the stores, they work. Maaaayyyybe, there is a little glitch, but the firmware is revised and things are good in short order. Tech support is good and the forums are seperate from the manufacturer and really just for people who like forums. Any techinical info you need or help comes directly from the maker. Trust me, Nikon is no great company when it comes to customer relations, but if it's a problem, they will address it. Like any other company, you may or may not get great service.

God I love tubes.....

Sorry about spelling Bhaagensen wrong..

Mitch Harding
2008-05-06, 09:40
Yeah, I've never had the sorts of problems described here personally.

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:07 AM, bhaagensen <
bhaagensen.38zxyo1210090202 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> regalma1;299332 Wrote:
> >
> > The same as most computer technology. It will crash. It will just not
> > work. It will drive you crazy. More than once I've dumped it in
> > frustration.
> >
> > This is a tech toy. I wish they would sell it as such. It is not
> > everybody's music source. Not yet, maybe someday. But probably not,
> > since the geeks who run this project will just keep adding more
> > unproven technology to it.
> >
>
> No, no, no, no, no, no, and no, I couldn't disagree more! I fully
> acknowledge the fact that some are having more problems than acceptable
> and that the products can be improved. But those claims are just not
> true.
>
>
> --
> bhaagensen
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47302
>
>

lanierb
2008-05-06, 09:49
To address a few comments about my post. I did update to 7.0.1 last night and I can't say how stable it is, but it does seem faster. I now have a weird error when I go to favorites on my controller so it's back to reading the forum for a hint as to why.

The XM plug-in would be my second most vauluable feature for the SB because I was hoping to get rid of my Polk XM receiver to make some room on my rack and of course to get rid of one payment a month to XM (could go to Rhapsody :-)). They still get two others from me :-) Anyway, the XM thing would be nice and it works intermittently from my controller at best. Here today, gone tomorrow as they say.

Switching from SB to my SN is a hit and miss feature. Most of the time if I want to switch back to SB I end up restarting the receiver so I tend to avoid Internet Radio.

I think the reason there is a misconception about the forum is because there is a direct link in Slim Devices web pages. That will pretty much do it and it should be obvious it does. Calling tech support is tough because I work on the east coast of the U.S. and I am at work most of tech supports hours. Also the reason I don't get online much as I state in my signature. I've had very good luck with Logitech support on other products, just not this one.

The most telling post was probably the one that hit the nail right on the head. This product does appear to be in the "build out phase" and is best sold to "early" adopters of the technology. Selling it at retail outlets like Crutchfield or Logitech isn't what I would expect for a product at this stage in it's developement. I think it's great that some folks haven't had a problem at all, but then I question why they are here to begin with. I would hazard a guess that most folks would rather spend their time either listening or doing something else. I may be wrong.

If Logitech is really serious about selling a whole lot of these, then they need to (A) make more of them (I understand there as scarce as hens teeth) and (B) make it so the average home body could plug it in and use it. I realize with any wireless device this is wishfull thinking, but a lot more folks are comfortable with the wireless piece these days, me included.

You read it over and over in this forum, "I really, really want it to work." You would hope Logitech would see the frustration and time spent and get it working at least at the level promised on the box and in the "Quick Set Up Guide" That itself was the funniest bit of literature I've read in forever.

Bests,

Howard

The biggest problem seems to be that everyone wants the SB3/duet to do different things and everyone runs it on different hardware/networks. Thus, for many of us everything works perfectly 100% of the time (because we have fast stable hardware, a strong network, and don't use niche plugins), but for others like you, you have many problems. Like most people, I've never tried the XM plugin. My best guess is that it's not yet been updated to support SC. Have you tried contacting the developer?

As for why I'm here, it's because the SB3 is such a great and flexible piece of hardware and I like learning cool new things to do with it.

Lanier

Mitch Harding
2008-05-06, 09:50
I think the comparison to cameras is a bit unfair to Slim Devices. In the
case of a camera they have fixed hardware, don't have to support third party
plugins, and don't add features on an ongoing basis like Slim Devices does.

SqueezeCenter works on Windows, Mac, Linux, etc, including multiple OS
versions and/or distros of each of these. Each user configures theirs
differently. Each user uses a different set of plugins. Each user has a
different firewall, anti-virus software, etc.

And then on the SB side of things, some people use wired networks, some use
wireless. Everyone has their own router.

And on top of all of this, SD keeps adding new features, fixing bugs, and
generally making the product better WHILE supporting even their oldest
hardware products.

I'm sure they could simplify things by stating that SC 7.0 only runs on
Windows XP or Vista and only worked with the recent hardware products, like
SB3 and beyond. Cut out support for third party plugins, don't add features
and just focus on bug fixes... I mean, sure, they could make things easy on
themselves (and on novice users). But that would drive away a lot of their
user base. I am willing to accept occasional bugs (usually minor, in my
experience) for having all of the things I've listed above.

Of course, YMMV. Everyone has different needs.

Mitch

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Howard Passman <
Howard.Passman.38zzcn1210092001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> Ya know in a way Regalma1 is actually right. If it has a processor,
> firmware and software, it is prone to these types of issues. I thought
> it was really amusing when I bought an HD DVD player (yeah, that was me)
> and realized I had to wait for it to reboot if I shut it off. Then that
> made me think of how young people in the 70's used to laugh at how some
> of us would have to wait for our tubes to warm up before we could play
> our music. My goodness! Why didn't we buy Solid State devices and get
> around all the waiting. Now we're waiting again, but this time the
> devices are fast as lightning, they just need to boot.
>
> I like to quiz folks about all the new technology with this question.
> If your home appliances like your refrigerator or stove had to be
> rebooted anywhere from occassionally to constantly, would you keep it
> or throw it out the door. Computers have made us way more tolerant
> than we should be. This stuff can work, but it requires manufacturers
> to complete the "build out" before releasing the product to the public.
> But oh! Then the next guy will come out with the next greatest toy and
> we won't be competitive.
>
> Still, it can be done better. I do photography as a hobby and I've
> used digital SLR cameras for going on ten years. These are coming out
> at an alarming rate from Nikon and Canon, just to mention a few.
> Generally, when they hit the stores, they work. Maaaayyyybe, there is
> a little glitch, but the firmware is revised and things are good in
> short order. Tech support is good and the forums are seperate from the
> manufacturer and really just for people who like forums. Any techinical
> info you need or help comes directly from the maker. Trust me, Nikon is
> no great company when it comes to customer relations, but if it's a
> problem, they will address it. Like any other company, you may or may
> not get great service.
>
> God I love tubes.....
>
> Sorry about spelling Bhaagensen wrong..
>
>
> --
> Howard Passman
>
> Sorry slow to respond. I don't spend that much time online.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard Passman's Profile:
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16674
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47302
>
>

Mandarb
2008-05-06, 09:51
Quoting Howard Passman <Howard.Passman.38zzcn1210092001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> on Tue, May 06 09:36:
>
> I like to quiz folks about all the new technology with this question.
> If your home appliances like your refrigerator or stove had to be
> rebooted anywhere from occassionally to constantly, would you keep it
> or throw it out the door.

I had to reboot my refrigerator once. Opened the door, noticed it was
quite warm in there, unplugged it, waited the requisite 30 seconds,
plugged it back in, and a couple hours later it was cold again. Name
brand, functions perfectly other than that one time. Who knows, maybe
the power sagged and the microprocessor wedged rather than a direct
firmware issue.

Highly annoying, yes, if it happened again would I contact them,
probably. Would I expect to get even 0.001% the attention that I would
if I reported an issue to Slim Devices? Heck no!

I (heart) my Squeezebox. Once I get the living room set up I expect my
wife to see the necessity of a Duet to get multi-room music. :)

--
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary.
Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."

andyg
2008-05-06, 09:56
I just want to respond to the post about not recommending our products to your mother. The solution for non-computer people is to use SqueezeNetwork. You don't have to know anything about computers, it just works and we take care of all the server-side stuff. My parents are SN-only users and use Pandora and Rhapsody all the time. They have a bunch of CDs but no desire to rip them, when they can find most of them on Rhapsody to listen to. They aren't audiophiles and aren't concerned about the bitrate or quality of Rhapsody. I bet they haven't listened to a CD in a year except in the car.

Phil Leigh
2008-05-06, 10:09
For me (trying to be dispassionate) the hardest nut to crack is that the SB/Duet needs a "computer" and a "network" - be it a NAS, Mac, wi-fi, ethernet cable/switch or whatever. These things are just NOT appliances in the accepted sense of the term. Well OK a switch or cable might be, since it has no firmware, but...

Anyway, the point is that there are just too many variables in the mix for this to be prime time mass-market fodder.
It's interesting to see where the late-entrant mainstream (?) manufacturers are going with this:

1) they've pretty much abandoned wi-fi...too many support issues, wi-fi needs to get to the level of DECT Phones(ie true plug and play) before I think the big players will be interested

2) they are generally supplying low functionality ("basic") GUI interfaces that run on standard hardware - simple - yes...crude - yes...easy to support - yes! (mostly the answer to the question "Can I?" is NO!)

The SB family is streets ahead in terms of functionality, but the trade-off is you do need to be a bit of a techno-whiz to get it all working and keep it that way.

I know it's against the grain, but Slim needs to fatten up a bit, IMHO. A wired (to the router) "NAS" that is guaranteed to work would be a step forward. It doesn't have to have an internal disk (could boot Linux variant from an SD card?) but must provide infinite expansion through daisy chained external drives...and must be easy to update from the Net as necessary...

Sorry I'm rambling. I'll stop.

pfarrell
2008-05-06, 10:16
Phil Leigh wrote:
> For me (trying to be dispassionate) the hardest nut to crack is that the
> SB/Duet needs a "computer" and a "network" - be it a NAS, Mac, wi-fi,
> ethernet cable/switch or whatever. These things are just NOT appliances
> in the accepted sense of the term.

And a lot of folk are seduced by the appeal of a NAS, but if you read
the forums, a NAS is often not the right solution. Or at least not the
right solution at first.

I strongly recommend taking a old PC of your favorite OS, Windows, Mac,
whatever, and installing SqueezeCenter on it, get it working. Solve all
the WiFi issues, etc.

If you later want something more compact, etc. then look at NAS.

Starting with an underpowered NAS just because the serious gurus can
make it work is not a recipe for success for the non-technical.

All IMHO, YMM
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Howard Passman
2008-05-06, 10:19
I may be as old as your mother :-), but as you may have gathered by now I am lazy when listening to music. I really like the idea of just sitting there, picking out songs and adding them to my playlist. That's why I bought the DUET to begin with.

I mentioned that it may have been a mistake to put SC on a server, but looking at the Slim Devices site and the Netgear site, I thought it was a slam dunk. So far I can only base how well it will do on a Windows machine on my one friends experience and the traffic on this forum. Hmmmmmm.

Mitch may be surprised to see what the new DSLR's can do and how compicated they've become. It may not be a completely fair comparision so lets throw routers in there in place of Digital SLR's. All the same issues Mitch mentioned yet, thankfully, a bit more nailed down than the DUET. I have a fair amount of experience with CISCO routers so I don't feel this is a argument on the other side of this. BTW, I'm not saying I'm good at CISCO IOS, just saying I have some first had experience in using it.

Hey, maybe one of you folks could start a service. You set everything up, get it working perfectly for the feature set a customer wants and then ship it. Good idea? I'd buy that before a Christmas Lights installation service :-)

Bests,

Howard

Phil Leigh
2008-05-06, 10:29
I may be as old as your mother :-), but as you may have gathered by now I am lazy when listening to music. I really like the idea of just sitting there, picking out songs and adding them to my playlist. That's why I bought the DUET to begin with.

I mentioned that it may have been a mistake to put SC on a server, but looking at the Slim Devices site and the Netgear site, I thought it was a slam dunk. So far I can only base how well it will do on a Windows machine on my one friends experience and the traffic on this forum. Hmmmmmm.

Mitch may be surprised to see what the new DSLR's can do and how compicated they've become. It may not be a completely fair comparision so lets throw routers in there in place of Digital SLR's. All the same issues Mitch mentioned yet, thankfully, a bit more nailed down than the DUET. I have a fair amount of experience with CISCO routers so I don't feel this is a argument on the other side of this. BTW, I'm not saying I'm good at CISCO IOS, just saying I have some first had experience in using it.

Hey, maybe one of you folks could start a service. You set everything up, get it working perfectly for the feature set a customer wants and then ship it. Good idea? I'd buy that before a Christmas Lights installation service :-)

Bests,

Howard

Howard - as a keen DSLR user myself...
this is hardly an apples vs. apples comparison! - a DSLR is a closed system. The only software on there is the manufacturers firmware, and the only hardware in the camera is what the manufacturer put there...thus the manufacturer has complete control and only has to test a very small number of hardware/software version scenarios.

By comparison, the SB/DUET is in a world of pain with a myriad of op systems, neighbouring applications, hardware, network (physical and logical) topologies and technologies, file formats etc etc...it's almost as bad as MS trying to release Windows!

grrman
2008-05-06, 10:47
The SB family is streets ahead in terms of functionality, but the trade-off is you do need to be a bit of a techno-whiz to get it all working and keep it that way.

Unfortunately that's the way in today's technology world.

Howard, I'm probably as old as you and have been playing with electronic gadgets as they come about, and I can even edit photos in my DSLR. I was one of the Duet pre-orders and have been "tweaking" this thing since the first week in March. Its got frustrating, obsessive, and wonderful at times. I haven't dealt with tech support once, only the fantastic postings by these forum "experts." I run everything on a mac pro, changed routers (only to give my in-laws my old one, b/c even the 70 yr olds play music on-line), ripped in ALAC, FLAC, dealt with album art issues, backed up and run my library from external drives, but most importantly, get to enjoy a wide range of without handling shiny or large black discs.

I've been searching for a network music system for a long time. Now, as someone else said, I have music, and can play it when I want. the best thing about the SB is it has reacquainted me with my 1500 plus music collection. Its a gas, gas, gas.

Pete

Howard Passman
2008-05-06, 11:15
Yep, yep, yep. I love music. I've been playing and listening since about 1965. One thing I don't miss is vinyl. Once CD players started sounding pretty fair, I've been hooked. The Duet was just the next step for me.

I would love it if every time I sat down I could depend on the DUET to work. I may have to settle on just listening to my ripped music for that to happen and I guess I can cope with that. The other stuff would be nice and I do enjoy XM radio from time to time. Guess, I'll keep the one I have and just ignore the possibility of the plug-in for the DUET.

Anyway, this has gone on long enough. Kind of a boring day here at work and that's what's allowing me to mess about anyway. It's not what I get paid for ;-)

Thanks for everyones opinion and input. I do hope for the folks like myself that Logitech gets a little something out of this thread. If not, I really haven't lost anything that I had to begin with. Maybe some time in the near future I'll risk trying a Windows PC to do this with, but right now I'm not willing to spend more time piddling and less time diddling. I got a couple of DSLR's, several guitars, a wife and two teenagers to relax with. I'm going back to that.

Bests,

Howard

pfarrell
2008-05-06, 11:26
Howard Passman wrote:
> I would love it if every time I sat down I could depend on the DUET to
> work.

I have just sat down and listened for ages. I started with an SB1
(pre-G) and have bought three SqueezeBoxen, a Transporter and a Duet.

It just works. I listen to Radio IO sometimes, mostly my own collection
of 777 albums with 9723 songs by 493 artists.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

adamslim
2008-05-06, 11:27
Mitch may be surprised to see what the new DSLR's can do and how compicated they've become. It may not be a completely fair comparision so lets throw routers in there in place of Digital SLR's. All the same issues Mitch mentioned yet, thankfully, a bit more nailed down than the DUET.

I have had far more trouble with routers, ADSL and wifi than I have with my SBs, probably by more than one order of magnitude. If ever there is a problem, it is 99% certain to be the router, and that's what I reboot first. I think I've had about 7-10 ADSL/router/wifi products, and they have all had what I consider to be major firmware issues. With no upgrades available - these things are poorly supported, and getting tech support is well-nigh impossible.

My DSLR though is quite old and just works :)

Mitch Harding
2008-05-06, 11:29
My point with the cameras was not that they are not complex, but that the
hardware, firmware, and software are all made by the same company. The
number of variables they need to control for are significantly smaller. And
I may be way offbase, but it was not my understanding that camera companies
give periodic software/firmware updates to their existing camera owners that
significantly extend the functionality and useful lives of their cameras.

Even with routers, I don't think it's a fair comparison. Yes, they have the
networking issues to deal with, and as far as I can tell they don't have a
spotless track record there. Many friends of mine have had various router
problems, from spontaneous reboots/crashes to problems where a router from
company X would not work well with a NIC from company Y. If you go read
router customer reviews on Amazon or newegg you'll see these sort of issues
for most routers. This alone should make it unsurprising that the
Squeezeboxes have occasional network problems. If anything I'm surprised
there aren't more of them.

The second thing that makes the router comparison bad (in my opinion) is
that they don't have a software component running on the user's OS. The
fact that Slim Devices develops a software product that works on Windows
(various versions), Mac (various levels), Linux (various distros and
levels), and others (I've heard BeOS, Solaris, etc) is quite different. Add
to that the variety of underlying hardware, and the fact that each user
configures it differently, and again, I am surprised at how well this all
works.

And finally, routers do not typically support and encourage third party
plugins, whereas these are a significant part of the Slim Devices product.

I don't think there are many (if any) consumer products out there that are
plug and play and which support the variety of hardware, software, and
networking combinations that Slim Devices does.

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Howard Passman <
Howard.Passman.39017b1210094401 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> Mitch may be surprised to see what the new DSLR's can do and how
> compicated they've become. It may not be a completely fair comparision
> so lets throw routers in there in place of Digital SLR's. All the same
> issues Mitch mentioned yet, thankfully, a bit more nailed down than the
> DUET. I have a fair amount of experience with CISCO routers so I don't
> feel this is a argument on the other side of this. BTW, I'm not saying
> I'm good at CISCO IOS, just saying I have some first had experience in
> using it.
>

Mitch Harding
2008-05-06, 11:31
Every time I use my Duet, it just works. But there are a thousand variables
which make your setup different than mine.

If you're having problems, you're left with a choice: Work through them via
technical support, the forums, and reporting bugs, or switch to a different
product. I've never used Sonos, but by all reports it is closer to Plug N
Play than the Slim Devices offering. The trade off is that it offers far
less in terms of options (and possibly audio quality), but it does seem to
"just work" for most people.

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Howard Passman <
Howard.Passman.3903zb1210098001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> I would love it if every time I sat down I could depend on the DUET to
> work. I may have to settle on just listening to my ripped music for
> that to happen and I guess I can cope with that. The other stuff would
> be nice and I do enjoy XM radio from time to time. Guess, I'll keep the
> one I have and just ignore the possibility of the plug-in for the DUET.
>

radish
2008-05-06, 12:02
Anyway, the point is that there are just too many variables in the mix for this to be prime time mass-market fodder.
It's interesting to see where the late-entrant mainstream (?) manufacturers are going with this:

1) they've pretty much abandoned wi-fi...too many support issues, wi-fi needs to get to the level of DECT Phones(ie true plug and play) before I think the big players will be interested

2) they are generally supplying low functionality ("basic") GUI interfaces that run on standard hardware - simple - yes...crude - yes...easy to support - yes! (mostly the answer to the question "Can I?" is NO!)

I'm curious - which "mainstream" manufacturers are you talking about here? I'd be willing to bet there aren't many companies larger or more mainstream than Logitech making such devices. The only biggie I can think of is MS, and their model with WMS is actually surprisingly similar to SC/SB at the conceptual level.

And to add to what people have been saying about reliability - I have/have had players from the SB1 through to the TP and SBR. My server runs on an old Win XP box, with pre-release software no less, and I can't remember the last time it didn't "just work". Look at how long I've been around this forum, if they didn't work I wouldn't be here! In fact I've had more problems with the 2 Macs in my house than the Squeezeboxes ;) *dons flameproof underwear*

On a wild tangemt, I recently bought a house after living in rented apartments since leaving home, and I can tell you there was a steep learning curve! More than once I found myself wishing I'd just stayed in that nice building where everything was done for me, but in the end I'm glad I stuck with it, the freedom and flexibility is worth a little work!

cliveb
2008-05-06, 12:08
My point with the cameras was not that they are not complex, but that the hardware, firmware, and software are all made by the same company. The number of variables they need to control for are significantly smaller.
Talking about digital cameras is very appropriate here. As Mitch says, they are closed systems that only have to cope with their own constrained little universe.

But wait... there is a time when a camera has to cope in the big bad world of an uncontrolled environment, and that's when you start downloading pictures from the camera to your PC. My wife has one of those Canon IXUS things. As a camera, it has never missed a beat. But when she goes to transfer the pictures to her PC, and the Canon software has to mix it with all the other stuff that's lurking on the same machine, guess what? Sometimes it works, and sometimes it hangs.

Phil Leigh
2008-05-06, 12:27
I'm curious - which "mainstream" manufacturers are you talking about here? I'd be willing to bet there aren't many companies larger or more mainstream than Logitech making such devices. The only biggie I can think of is MS, and their model with WMS is actually surprisingly similar to SC/SB at the conceptual level.

And to add to what people have been saying about reliability - I have/have had players from the SB1 through to the TP and SBR. My server runs on an old Win XP box, with pre-release software no less, and I can't remember the last time it didn't "just work". Look at how long I've been around this forum, if they didn't work I wouldn't be here! In fact I've had more problems with the 2 Macs in my house than the Squeezeboxes ;) *dons flameproof underwear*

On a wild tangemt, I recently bought a house after living in rented apartments since leaving home, and I can tell you there was a steep learning curve! More than once I found myself wishing I'd just stayed in that nice building where everything was done for me, but in the end I'm glad I stuck with it, the freedom and flexibility is worth a little work!

Sorry, by "mainstream" I meant mainstream audio (not computer gizmo) companies...Naim, McIntosh, Arcam, Linn, Meridian, NAD etc. Many more will follow!

OK so most of these are pretty high-end but that's usually the trend. Eventually there will be a trickle-down...

I'm pretty sure these guys are taking media servers VERY seriously.

I did say mainstream not "mass market" :o)

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 12:28
Howard,

when i first got my SB2 the slim universe was already well established.

so when i had problems with it, and i definitely did, and they were fairly big, (many diverse problems, certainly bigger than any router issues i've ever had), i found the forums.

now, here's my impression of it all:

slim stuff is not as easy as advertised. it just isn't. its not simple or any of the rest of it. now, i agree with andy that SN can simplify it, but thats only good if you want net radio only, and thats IF it works, and i've had (and occassionally still have) issues with that.

slim has a natural tension between simplicity and power. power usually means more complex. elegance is achieved when simplicity is achieved without any loss of power.

slim stuff is not going to be ipod elegant, (and yes, ipod is not as powerful, but that is not to say it isn't powerful of its won accord). slim stuff could definitely beneift from having "beginner" and "advanced" modes. slim stuff could also benefit from having "global settings" and "individual settings" modes. but right now it has neither.

slim would probably also benefit from having a OS driver push the SB for users who would rather have that, or a tcp/ip dsp plugin for winamp for users who would rather winamp ran the SB instead of SC7. and i won't mention the all-in-one box idea.

having said all that...

perhaps b/c they are so accessible, and because they have treaed me quite well, and because you frequently can get issues addressed on the forums, i have stuck it out thru my issues, and at this point, i don't see that anyone is making a better product to do what i want to do.

the SBC is to me, simply amazing, and while i certainly have had problems and issues with it, as well as concerns over how it actually works, i am content to not only use slim stuff happily, but try to turn other people on to it too.

the only caveat, is that at this time, i only try to convince the small group of tech savvy people i know to get it, b/c it simply is not ready for average users yet, imo. i don't want to be the helpdesk for my average user friends.

but you sound like you can handle this thing, its just a matter of if you are inclined and willing to do so and put up with the learning/development curve.

best of luck.

Pale Blue Ego
2008-05-06, 12:29
This stuff can easily be used as a near-bulletproof "appliance" to play music:

Buy the "Classic" Squeezebox 3 instead of the Duet
Run a dedicated server with lots of RAM
Run a stable version of the software - 5.4.1 or 6.2.2 are good choices
All connections wired

This works brilliantly for "just playing music". In fact, it easily handles a whole-house system.

Phil Leigh
2008-05-06, 12:36
This stuff can easily be used as a near-bulletproof "appliance" to play music:

Buy the "Classic" Squeezebox 3 instead of the Duet
Run a dedicated server with lots of RAM
Run a stable version of the software - 5.4.1 or 6.2.2 are good choices
All connections wired

This works brilliantly for "just playing music". In fact, it easily handles a whole-house system.

Actually that is a very fair and (IME) accurate point. It's easy to forget those "golden" stable releases!

morris_minor
2008-05-06, 12:58
BTW, my first "PC" was an IBM 360. Let's see how old everyone is :-)
For UK viewers, who remembers the BBC micro? 32 Kb of RAM. Wow! At Uni I prgrammed an ICL mainframe with punched cards. . . .

But . . . the SB architecture is it's own worst enemy. The openness, the flexibility are its strengths. But it relies on so many things outside its own control. Wireless networks, any networks can screw up big time. My Duet and SB3 sometimes need total resets (but not often). I'm happy - kind of - to cope with this, but Joe Public would never stand for it.

This is cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) technology, and not ready for general consumption IMO.

SB is the best thing that's happened to my listening since I can store all those nasty little silver discs and just play vinyl and FLACS. But there's a few more steps needed for the non-tech.

autopilot
2008-05-06, 15:11
I was on the beta program and got my Duet a few months before official release. Both Controller firmware, Receiver Firmware and Squeezecenter were very much beta. I had it working in under 10 minutes and i have barely had a problem since. In a way i wish i had problems that could have been identified and fixed so the many people who are having issues could have been helped. But, it's basically down to my network. I have a very good and stable router, there are no other wireless networks near and i don't have (or need) any wireless encryption as i live in the sticks. Most problems are down to peoples less than perfect wireless network. But its the Squeezebox they see the problem with, so its its the Squeezebox thats at fault. Thats not to say the software is perfect, far from it and i think 7.0 has been a step backwards in some respects, but all those cheap free routers the ISP's hand out to new customers must surely have something to answer for.

lanierb
2008-05-06, 15:20
I was on the beta program and got my Duet a few months before official release. Both Controller firmware, Receiver Firmware and Squeezecenter were very much beta. I had it working in under 10 minutes and i have barely had a problem since. In a way i wish i had problems that could have been identified and fixed so the many people who are having issues could have been helped. But, it's basically down to my network. I have a very good and stable router, there are no other wireless networks near and i don't have (or need) any wireless encryption as i live in the sticks. Most problems are down to peoples less than perfect wireless network. But its the Squeezebox they see the problem with, so its its the Squeezebox thats at fault. Thats not to say the software is perfect, far from it and i think 7.0 has been a step backwards in some respects, but all those cheap free routers the ISP's hand out to new customers must surely have something to answer for.

I totally agree... except for the part about 7.0 being a step backward. I LOVE native Pandora/Rhapsody support :-), and I have had zero problems with 7.0 despite running 4 squeezeboxes in distant parts of the house. BTW the increased forum traffic may just be due to a growing (and perhaps less techy) user base.

amey01
2008-05-06, 18:40
My advice with technology - don't go cutting edge. If you do, you're giving yourself up to be a "guinea pig" test bed.

You don't have much choice to downgrade with a Duet, but I run a SB3 and run an older version of SlimServer (6.5.4).

It's totally stable and gives me many many hours of uninterrupted music. I won't be upgrading in a hurry.

So my advice - find something stable - spend a bit of time getting it right, then *LEAVE IT* alone!!

tyler_durden
2008-05-06, 18:58
My SB3 and Duet have worked best since I switched from a shared PC running windoze to a dedicated machine running linux. The effect that antivirus and antispyware software and the frequent windows security updates and reboots take on windoze performance in general has some direct impact on SqueezeCenter performance.

Now I log into the linux box once a month to see if there are any available updates that would affect the system. If not, I log back out and that's that for another month or so.

TD

Pale Blue Ego
2008-05-06, 21:17
Yeah, I forgot to add Linux. Linux on the server will greatly add to the stability, usability, and reliability of your "it just works" system. So:

Dedicated server using stable Slimserver release on Linux. All connections wired. SB3 instead of Duet.

That's pretty bullet-proof. So, it's the extras and conveniences we demand that make the equation so much more complicated. We want wi-fi, album art, a slicker GUI, a sexy remote, etc. Each of these things introduces new problems to solve and additional performance hits to consider.

Slim Devices solved the network music streaming thing years ago. Now they're solving the network music streaming + nifty doodads thing.

Sike
2008-05-07, 00:59
I have had Squeezeboxes since the original "sweat shop" Slimp3. Although I am a techie, there is nothing worse than something 'half-working', i.e. sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Over the years I have had various versions of Slim/Squeezeserver on my server, not all have been stable. But when I find a version which is stable, I stick too it for up to a year. And when I update, I delete the old version first, to make sure there are no problems.

Maybe Logitech should put users in 3 categories.

1: Novice user: Last (really) STABLE release
2: Experienced user: Normal releases
3: Nerd class: Nightly builds

Then only ship the novice version to customers. If they feel comfortable they can still copy a plugin or 2 into the plugins directory. If the system goes haywire they can still delete the plugins.

What about "Squeeze certified plugins" that have been tested by a couple of people running vanilla setups? I once installed an equalizer plugin to get more bass, but some songs ended up sounding like chipmunks singing… But there are some great plugins out there.

I have a good dozen devices running seamlessly. The only real problems I have had have been my own fault like faulty access points*, but rarely a problem with the software or hardware.

The bottom line is: If your computer does not have any problems and your access points work (and you have reception).. the devices do -just work-

That is my 2 helvetic cents/rappen

----------------------------
*Why is it so hard to build an access point that will run for months on end? My advice, build your own: www.pcengines.ch with m0n0wall running on it

autopilot
2008-05-07, 01:28
I totally agree... except for the part about 7.0 being a step backward. I LOVE native Pandora/Rhapsody support :-), and I have had zero problems with 7.0 despite running 4 squeezeboxes in distant parts of the house. BTW the increased forum traffic may just be due to a growing (and perhaps less techy) user base.

When i say a step backwards, i mean just in a few area's such as the networking stability (which is just a case of tweaking) and the fact that it's very much more power hungry (many NAS's have become redundant). Rhapsody and Pandora are also not available in the UK and other area - so a lot of people are seeing the problems, but not reaping the benefits. But on the whole, SC7.0 is a step forwards and the extra power requirements are needed to drive the products forward in introduce new features. There will always be problems that do not come up in beta tests. But roll on 7.1 :)

Enoch Soames
2008-05-07, 14:33
I must be a bigger nerd than I think I am. Never considered myself a techie, but I've got two SB3's and the Duet combo and although things have been a little fiddly from time to time, it mostly Just Works. I did have a problem for awhile with the SBC connection dropping whenever I put the unit down for more than ten or fifteen minutes, but after switching to 7.0.1 it has been rock solid.

pski
2008-05-07, 17:48
I can't say this about the forum, but the "free your music" moniker needs a little fleshing-out:

The leap of understanding in explaining how this stuff works (at least with my friends) is that SqueezeCenter is really just a web-site that understands streaming music.

Most (non-nerds) don't have the concept that their computer can be a web-site. Web-sites are things that don't exist at home.. they are "somewhere else."

After that, explaining that there are hardware and software "players" that are detected and controlled by the "web-site" is an easy slide.

From there, they can start to grasp that the "web-site" should be available from anywhere leads them to grasp (if not understand) how this stuff can make music available from anywhere...

peter
2008-05-07, 22:50
pski wrote:
> I can't say this about the forum, but the "free your music" moniker
> needs a little fleshing-out:
>
> The leap of understanding in explaining how this stuff works (at least
> with my friends) is that SqueezeCenter is really just a web-site that
> understands streaming music.
>
> Most (non-nerds) don't have the concept that their computer can be a
> web-site. Web-sites are things that don't exist at home.. they are
> "somewhere else."
>
> After that, explaining that there are hardware and software "players"
> that are detected and controlled by the "web-site" is an easy slide.
>
> From there, they can start to grasp that the "web-site" should be
> available from anywhere leads them to grasp (if not understand) how
> this stuff can make music available from anywhere...
>

It can be hard to understand sometimes for non-techies, yes. But
websites in the home are getting more and more normal. I have a router
and two switches that have a 'website' I have two printers that each
have their own 'websites', I have a PBX that has its own 'website'. I
have a DVR that has its own 'website'.

Regards,
Peter

gorman
2008-05-08, 00:17
My SB3 and Duet have worked best since I switched from a shared PC running windoze to a dedicated machine running linux. The effect that antivirus and antispyware software and the frequent windows security updates and reboots take on windoze performance in general has some direct impact on SqueezeCenter performance.Quite frankly... no. And the fact that you feel necessary to call it windoze speaks volumes. In my three, mostly happy, years with Slimdevices products, Windows has never been the problem, even with a regular antivirus going on all the time (AntiVir).

Howard Passman
2008-05-08, 02:29
First, let me clarify to some of the folks that posted that I am not entirely non-techie. I have no issue with networks, wireless or other. I run and maintain a MPLS network and am *the* IT department (as part of my job)for our company of 250 employees spread over 4 locations. I have programed a few CISCO routers and baby, those aren't anything like the silly little LinkSys routers some folks allude to. I've been adept at electronics and mechanical things all my life. I can sweat copper pipe as well as any plumber. I've always said there's nothing you can't do if you spend the time.

And there's the key to this. **Spend the time**. Yesterday, when I got off from work I, like many, stopped by home depot and bought a few plumbing items. I needed to change the handle on a toilet, sweat in a new hose bib and splice a CPVC connection. All easy enough, but afterward I want to LISTEN TO MUSIC!!! I never wanted the DUET to become another project. Period. No, not even for a moment. I think burning 500 CD's should be the project, not making the SB work.

O.K., so yesterday, after listening to some of the advice here, I set up a Windows PC with SC on it. It's a 3.4Ghz P4 with 2GB of memory. Should work fine. And it did. Much faster, no hang ups, not glitchy. Nice. However.......I installed the XM plugin and still no XM on the controller unless you start it in SC. Also, and here's the biggest pain with the XM plug-in (and it's done it on both machines) when I run a scan of my music files it wipes out my XM favorites. Every single time. I have my favorites on a folder on the PC and not where my music files are so it's not that. I realize that when I run a scan it checks the favorites folder and the play lists so I'm guessing it does have something to do with that.

I don't imagine Logitech will help me on a 3rd party plug-in, so any of you guys who like to fool with this rather than listen to music have any ideas?

In closing, so far what I've gained by moving SC to a PC is much faster response (I really wasn't bugged by the speed of my ReadyNAS), not so glitchy of an UI (That is a bit nice) and nothing else. I still have the same XM issues and I have to admit to not having tried switching from SN to SB yet to see if that is still weird.

Any ideas??

Thanks again and a great day to all.

Howard

bpa
2008-05-08, 02:40
To do any development on XMRadio - the user also needs to be a subscriber which limits the pool of developers.

As the Plugin is currently implemented I think SBC support would need a rewrite of some sections. I checked out a problem with XMRadio a few years ago and I got a temporary id which lasted 3 days - so rewrites in 3 days is hard work and subsequent debugging with users would be difficult.

As a stop gap but it may be just more trouble - you could try installing the retrobrowser applet on the SBC. It is supposed to give you an SB3 type interface on the SBC and XMRadio may work on it. That said - it will take up more time to set it up taking you away from your plumbing.

Howard Passman
2008-05-08, 02:57
Hi and thanks for the info. I'd be more than willing to put you on my XM account if you think you could get it working. I'll even throw in a couple of months of free listening :-) I would really like to see the plug-in work because in my opinion it is the second most valuable feature of the SB. One of the things that is appealing to me about XM over Internet radio is there's not so many darn choices. I already know what I like :-) We have XM in the cars and a Polk unit in the living room. I would like to get rid of the Polk unit for two reasons. One, space and two, the SB sounds much better.

SB could be so cool if Logitech would just spend some time developing it.

What say?

Howard

P.S. The SB Duet receiver is now available at SD.

bpa
2008-05-08, 05:06
I'd be more than willing to put you on my XM account if you think you could get it working.

I've a list of things to be done and I'd prefer to reduce that list before taking on another item. So at the moment I don't want to make a commitment that I can't meet.



SB could be so cool if Logitech would just spend some time developing it.

Everybody has their own feature they'd love. LOgitecth have a lot of staff developing functionality and in the last 3 months they have added Slacker and Sirius.

For Logitech to support XMradio, I presume they would want it to work through Squeezenetwork (similar to Sirius) and a commercial agreement needs to be in place. Since XMRadio is a major player in the N. American market I assume they have examined the feasibility. If the Sirius implementation is a pattern, then supporting the current XMradio plugin would not be the basis for a proper Logitech solution as the bulk of the support would be in Squeezenetwork.

I would only invest effort in the XMradio plugin if I knew Logitech was not developing a better solution. However Logitech will not comment on any new service until it is released so the plugin could be stuck in limbo.

Skunk
2008-05-08, 05:06
so any of you guys who like to fool with this rather than listen to music have any ideas?


So because I took the time to respond to you two days ago, when I had 20 minutes to kill in the morning (before meeting a customer at home depot to pick out their whirlpool tub, no less), I don't like music?

My tube amp takes longer than that to warm up, and I listen loud which the neighbors don't like in the AM, so I figured maybe if I could help someone enjoy this product as much as I do, it might be worth logging on. Unfortunately that must make me a non-music-loving geek with no life!

IMO the people here who try to help others are a testament to how good of an idea this model of music delivery is, and I doubt ANY of them 'don't like listening to music'.

If it were me I'd relegate XM to the car, and use lossless albums while at home. If I liked something I heard on XM, I'd buy the album. Isn't that what music lovers do, or am I confusing them with audiophiles?

Howard Passman
2008-05-08, 05:19
Thanks BPA, I know what you mean about projects. I wonder what will happen if the Sirus/XM merger goes through??

Skunk. Nah, I wasn't really saying you don't like music, but to me listening is the part I like the best. I agree XM lacks the quality of listening to ones files, but when I want background music, I like it. And then when I really want to sit down and listen, I still use my good old Revox B226. It has better resolution and is a bit warmer, which is what my tastes go towards. I will freak out when that thing goes to the big scrap heap in the sky. The SB is perfect for everything in between. If it ever gets to be plug and play, I would probably check out the Transport.

Anyway, didn't mean to insult you especially after taking the time to repsond. Please accept my appology.

Bests,

Howard

egd
2008-05-08, 06:42
I have a good dozen devices running seamlessly. The only real problems I have had have been my own fault like faulty access points*, but rarely a problem with the software or hardware.

The bottom line is: If your computer does not have any problems and your access points work (and you have reception).. the devices do -just work-Couldn't agree with you more. I've got 5 SB3s and a Transporter being served a FLAC library just under 3TB located on a NAS also hosting SC7 and MusicIP. The whole shooting match just works - even wireless works on the odd occasion I choose to use my iPod Touch as a remote.

A basic SB3/SC setup is literally just plug and play. I'll comment on the Duet when I've had a chance to play with it over the weekend, but suspect it will be much the same.

Mitch G
2008-05-08, 08:58
From what I've read, the main issue seems to be that you want to be able to just kick back and have a service like XM play music for you rather than deciding on what to listen to from your CD collection. (I can relate since I like this hands-off way of listening, too.)
But, is sounds like the XM plugin is a bit rough around the edges.
So, have you looked around at the various internet radio options instead?
I'm sure there are internet radio stations that carry the same sort of music as you like to listen to on XM, and the SB works great with internet radio.
(For me, my #1 source of internet music is Radio Paradise and their 192Kbps stream sounds great.)


Mitch

Howard Passman
2008-05-08, 09:02
I'm glad all of your stuff works. Really I am. And I guess I could be down there in the gene pool as your signature seems to imply others might be. If that is the case, you could (A) help resolve the problems of us lesser mortals or (B) don't waste your time telling me how easy it is for you.

Sorry, a little testy this afternoon.

Howard

Howard Passman
2008-05-08, 09:07
Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I do like to listen to my music when I am sitting down and can pick out a playlist. It's what's really cool about the SB over just playing CD's. When I want background music is when I like XM. I mentioned earlier that I already have XM stations I like and also would like to get rid of my XM receiver if possible.

I am spending some time trying to get familiar with some of what seems like millions of radio stations out there and I have started to collect a favorites list of those. Buuuutttttt, I still like XM :-)

Have a great day,

Howard

egd
2008-05-08, 13:15
I'm glad all of your stuff works. Really I am. And I guess I could be down there in the gene pool as your signature seems to imply others might be. If that is the case, you could (A) help resolve the problems of us lesser mortals or (B) don't waste your time telling me how easy it is for you.

Sorry, a little testy this afternoon. I said a basic SB3/SC setup is literally just plug and play, what you're doing/ wanting to do is not a basic setup. If you're so keen on dynamic playlists why not use Erland's dynamic playlist plugin that will make selections from your own library and just keep on doing that for you until you press stop. Great way to rediscover what you've presumably already decided you like.

As to depth of your gene pool I've nothing to offer...

Skunk
2008-05-08, 14:36
Anyway, didn't mean to insult you especially after taking the time to repsond. Please accept my appology.



Accepted, but truth be told it prob didn't even deserve an apology on your part. I meant to say that to my GF but displaced it! Besides, I tend to give ppl who can sweat copper AND keep 250 workstations running the benefit of the doubt. :-) Cheers.

Sorry to others for the derailment.

pski
2008-05-08, 19:45
Phil Leigh wrote:
> For me (trying to be dispassionate) the hardest nut to crack is that the
> SB/Duet needs a "computer" and a "network" - be it a NAS, Mac, wi-fi,
> ethernet cable/switch or whatever. These things are just NOT appliances
> in the accepted sense of the term.

And a lot of folk are seduced by the appeal of a NAS, but if you read
the forums, a NAS is often not the right solution. Or at least not the
right solution at first.

I strongly recommend taking a old PC of your favorite OS, Windows, Mac,
whatever, and installing SqueezeCenter on it, get it working. Solve all
the WiFi issues, etc.

If you later want something more compact, etc. then look at NAS.

Starting with an underpowered NAS just because the serious gurus can
make it work is not a recipe for success for the non-technical.

All IMHO, YMM
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

I agree, Pat.

A NAS adds another level of <possible> trouble, especially when you try to cut corners and run SC on the NAS. While there are NAS boxes that seem to be able to do NAS and SC, most (like mine) are pathetic when it comes to doing the SC part.

It seems that those that combine the boxes are so enthusiastic about how easy it is are the technically savvy people who don't realize what most people don't know..

As an example, I use a NAS but I have to know that when SC tries to contact it, the SC box has to provide the user/password. If this doesn't happen, SC will rebuild (if it' set to do it) and the result will be an empty library..

Get things going and then take on the more complex issues. Mostly, get things going and make sure you have a working backup solution....

P

Nonreality
2008-05-09, 06:07
I'm surprised that you are having problems with XM. Do you get it very good on your computer? Are you running 2.0 of the plugin? I run mine any time of the day with no problems. Maybe it has something to do with the Duet, I'm sb3. On mine it comes in much better than on any of my computers. Logging in is immediate unlike on my computer. I hope you get it going, I just have to have my Opie and Anthony fix. I'm listening live to them now. :) If Logitech developed something for XM we would have another radio fee I believe.

tyler_durden
2008-05-09, 07:47
Quite frankly... no. And the fact that you feel necessary to call it windoze speaks volumes. In my three, mostly happy, years with Slimdevices products, Windows has never been the problem, even with a regular antivirus going on all the time (AntiVir).

Many less experienced computer users have trouble distinguishing between a poorly operating computer system and one with a properly functioning operating system. They think that it is normal for computers to require things like antivirus and antispyware software, almost daily security patches and their requisite reboots, and slow application start-up and shutdown because that is all they have ever known.

TD

Howard Passman
2008-05-09, 08:32
I'm surprised that you are having problems with XM. Do you get it very good on your computer? Are you running 2.0 of the plugin? I run mine any time of the day with no problems. Maybe it has something to do with the Duet, I'm sb3. On mine it comes in much better than on any of my computers. Logging in is immediate unlike on my computer. I hope you get it going, I just have to have my Opie and Anthony fix. I'm listening live to them now. :) If Logitech developed something for XM we would have another radio fee I believe.

Thanks for your response. Welllllll, i was running a Netgear ReadyNAS DUO and that seems to be where almost all of my problems came from. I took someones suggestion and moved SC to a PC and now things are very good. XM comes in fine, but the problem is it will not show on my controller unless I open it using the UI on the PC. This is the same whether on the PC or the NAS. The other annoying thing that happens is every time i scan my music files I loose my XM Favs.

Anyway, I'm willing to live with these issues.....unless you have a fix :-)

Have a great weekend,

Howard

Howard Passman
2008-05-09, 08:38
Many less experienced computer users have trouble distinguishing between a poorly operating computer system and one with a properly functioning operating system. They think that it is normal for computers to require things like antivirus and antispyware software, almost daily security patches and their requisite reboots, and slow application start-up and shutdown because that is all they have ever known.

TD

There certainly are millions of "less experienced" computer users out there. Maybe we need to start a ranking service. Man, comments like this that are pretty much unrelated to the initial question and that bring nothing to the table really eat at me. Please bring something constructive.

Still cranky from yesterday.

Howard

peter
2008-05-09, 10:17
On Fri, 9 May 2008 07:47:11 -0700, "tyler_durden"
<tyler_durden.395e9b1210344601 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> said:
>
> gorman;299961 Wrote:
> > Quite frankly... no. And the fact that you feel necessary to call it
> > windoze speaks volumes. In my three, mostly happy, years with
> > Slimdevices products, Windows has never been the problem, even with a
> > regular antivirus going on all the time (AntiVir).
>
> Many less experienced computer users have trouble distinguishing
> between a poorly operating computer system and one with a properly
> functioning operating system. They think that it is normal for
> computers to require things like antivirus and antispyware software,
> almost daily security patches and their requisite reboots, and slow
> application start-up and shutdown because that is all they have ever
> known.

You exaggerate. If Linux had the same users as Windows it too would
require anti-virus and anti-spyware tools. Linux does require almost
daily security patches, more frequently than windows I think. Luckily on
Linux a reboot is seldom required. I just reconfigured a system from
Ubuntu to Windows XP and the desktop suddenly seemed a lot snappier.
Having siad that, I'm running SC on Linux and I wouldn't have it any
other way. SC works best on Linux/Unix, because Perl works best on Unix.
It works pretty well on Windows, but just not quite as good.

Regards,
Peter

Nonreality
2008-05-09, 15:37
Thanks for your response. Welllllll, i was running a Netgear ReadyNAS DUO and that seems to be where almost all of my problems came from. I took someones suggestion and moved SC to a PC and now things are very good. XM comes in fine, but the problem is it will not show on my controller unless I open it using the UI on the PC. This is the same whether on the PC or the NAS. The other annoying thing that happens is every time i scan my music files I loose my XM Favs.

Anyway, I'm willing to live with these issues.....unless you have a fix :-)

Have a great weekend,

Howard

As long as you can hear it all is well I think. :) A little hassle but at least it's on your stereo with no charge. Just think of the what the poor folks are putting up with. Just a thought and I'm sure your way ahead of me here but make sure your scans are just looking for new stuff and not a clear and reload.

Nonreality
2008-05-09, 15:44
Many less experienced computer users have trouble distinguishing between a poorly operating computer system and one with a properly functioning operating system. They think that it is normal for computers to require things like antivirus and antispyware software, almost daily security patches and their requisite reboots, and slow application start-up and shutdown because that is all they have ever known.

TD
You elitist you. My poor inexperienced xp machine seems to do just fine and since it's the most popular to hack I do run some things just because. I'd run linux and such but my kids would kill me. I know you also have the best soap so stop bragging.

ncarver
2008-05-09, 16:47
Linux does require almost daily security patches, more frequently than windows I think.


While I see no value in a Linux vs. Windows argument, I could not let this sort of misconception pass. The only reason patches may be more frequent for Linux distros is that the distros release them more frequently than Microsoft, which generally releases patches only once a month or so (for XP). If you want to deal with patches less frequently, then don't run utilities that constantly check for patches--do it only once a month! While this may sound like a major security trade-off, you should consider that patches for Linux software that involve vulnerabilities that are *remotely* exploitable are very, very rare. The vast majority of patches are for local exploits--i.e., they apply only if other people are using your machines and you don't trust these people. I always examine patches before applying them, and can go months without doing any updates for my single-user desktop machines.

peter
2008-05-11, 06:34
ncarver wrote:
>> Linux does require almost daily security patches, more frequently than
>> windows I think.
>>
>>
>
> While I see no value in a Linux vs. Windows argument, I could not let
> this sort of misconception pass. The only reason patches may be more
> frequent for Linux distros is that the distros release them more
> frequently than Microsoft, which generally releases patches only once a
> month or so (for XP). If you want to deal with patches less frequently,
> then don't run utilities that constantly check for patches--do it only
> once a month! While this may sound like a major security trade-off,
> you should consider that patches for Linux software that involve
> vulnerabilities that are *remotely* exploitable are very, very rare.
> The vast majority of patches are for local exploits--i.e., they apply
> only if other people are using your machines and you don't trust these
> people. I always examine patches before applying them, and can go
> months without doing any updates for my single-user desktop machines.
>
>

We were talking about frequency since I was reacting to "almost daily
security patches". I don't know if the rest of your story is correct, it
might be, but OTOH I don't get that many security updates via Windows
Update even with weeks between them. And often it's just 'Windows
Malicious tool Remover', which is not really a 'security patch'. I just
ran yum update on a CentOS host BTW (it' s been a while I guess) and
counted 46 updates in one go. I've no idea how serious they are and how
remotely exploitable, but I don't really keep track of that in Windows
either. Both Windows and Linux PC's need frequent updates, can we agree
on that?

Regards,
Peter

ianstuart
2008-06-22, 19:50
I have a PC with plenty of speed and memory and a Netgear router that functions perfectly well. However, my two Duets have been nothing but trouble. The connection drops, even within 15 feet of the router, the Controller suddenly stops communicating with the receivers, or cannot find the network, or can find the network but not the library. In contrast my SB3 works perfectly. Now if the problem was the network, as Support keeps on trying to claim, I wonder why the SB3 works fine? I agree completely with the original post, the product should work out of the box. If they could do it with the SB3 it means that the Duet was released with too many bells and whistles and before it was ready for prime time. I suspect Logitech is getting nothing but a bad reputation from this experience since for everyone who posts on this forum there are probably dozens of people who have bought the product, tried to use it and given up in disgust.

egd
2008-06-22, 22:00
I have to agree - the Duet in its current form (Controller and Receiver) is crap. Based on my experience it is basically unreliable and no, the fault doesn't lie with the user or my WAP - everything else, including my SB3s and iPod Touch etc. work fine via wireless using the same WAP. Neither the Receiver nor the Controller do. I've _ucked around with it enough now that I want nothing more to do with it, so I guess that means I've "tried to use it and given up in disgust".

adamslim
2008-06-23, 01:01
I have to agree - the Duet in its current form (Controller and Receiver) is crap. Based on my experience it is basically unreliable and no, the fault doesn't lie with the user or my WAP - everything else, including my SB3s and iPod Touch etc. work fine via wireless using the same WAP. Neither the Receiver nor the Controller do. I've _ucked around with it enough now that I want nothing more to do with it, so I guess that means I've "tried to use it and given up in disgust".

I was just thinking earlier that I wouldn't be that happy with a Duet - while I love the Controller, it is only about 98% reliable - with my SB3 and SB+, I have the fall-back of the remote and screen.

Personally, I think the best thing to buy is a SB3 plus controller. Then you can't go wrong. I think this should be packaged up, and should be the standard purchase - people could get extra Receivers for subsidiary systems if they wanted.

From what I can tell, Sonos is also not 100% reliable - you often have to reboot the remote. Redundancy is good, IMO.

mvalera
2008-06-23, 02:37
I have to agree - the Duet in its current form (Controller and Receiver) is crap. Based on my experience it is basically unreliable and no, the fault doesn't lie with the user or my WAP - everything else, including my SB3s and iPod Touch etc. work fine via wireless using the same WAP. Neither the Receiver nor the Controller do. I've _ucked around with it enough now that I want nothing more to do with it, so I guess that means I've "tried to use it and given up in disgust".

EGD... you likely have a bad unit. It happens. Call support.

Mike

oscarg
2008-06-24, 20:56
Hi Everyone.
I have had My Squeezebox a week, and although it is not perfect, it is damn close.
If you consider the multiple things there are to trip it up (different software clients - yes I am having trouble getting the Mandriva client working, but the duet has got further than my printer did. The Windows client seems flawless) multiple network configs (I am using 802.11g with WAP 64bit and CAT 5 ethernet) It is simply outstanding.
It is playing flac and ogg files, and out putting to the cyrus amp sounds really surprisingly good (I mean REALLY good).
I wish Windows Media Centre was half as stable as this.
I would suggest to the author of this column that it is probably the XM plugin that needs work, to imply that this is a product for "early adopters" or whatever is nonsense.
Yes I had to do a hard reset of the controller, before all the artwork worked correctly (hold down the "+" while switching it on FYI)

Anyway - keep using it, and don't feel like you have a lemon, this is a great product, with heaps of great features that show they were REALLY thinking about the user ( for example I love the way the controller wakes up when you pick it up etc etc) I think it is obviously not considered complete which means things can only get better.

Thanks