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Pat Farrell
2004-02-29, 21:13
I'm using the fishbone skin since I have downloaded tons
of cover art. I have three sizes/detail levels of artwork for most
albums, called cover.jpg, albumartsmall.jpg and thumb.jpg

When I do a "browse artwork" the thumbnails look great.
And when I "browse album" and select an album, it properly shows
the big cover.jpg.

But when I select an album and it shows the tracks and cover on
the right-side frame, it uses the "thumb.jpg" and tells the browser
to make the "height=100" so the browser does the stretching.
Which distorts the images terribly. If it just wrote the HTML to
use albumartsmall.jpg it would look tons better.

Is there a way to have the slimserver use the appropriate sized
and appropriate resolution?

Thanks
Pat

kdf
2004-02-29, 22:25
Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:

> I'm using the fishbone skin since I have downloaded tons
> of cover art. I have three sizes/detail levels of artwork for most
> albums, called cover.jpg, albumartsmall.jpg and thumb.jpg
>
> When I do a "browse artwork" the thumbnails look great.
> And when I "browse album" and select an album, it properly shows
> the big cover.jpg.
>
> But when I select an album and it shows the tracks and cover on
> the right-side frame, it uses the "thumb.jpg" and tells the browser
> to make the "height=100" so the browser does the stretching.
> Which distorts the images terribly. If it just wrote the HTML to
> use albumartsmall.jpg it would look tons better.
>
> Is there a way to have the slimserver use the appropriate sized
> and appropriate resolution?

In the Fishbone skin, the browse by artwork AND status use the thumb.jpg. Both
use the height constraint, and the thumbnails use width due to layout
requirements. The Status side is intended to allow the art to appear in its
native aspect ratio since the layout only relies on height. Are you requesting
that the status constrict height AND width, or neither? Both of these cases
could pose problems when an image isn't 1:1 and for those who dont have
thumb.jpgs sized to 100x100.

Since you are able to read the code, I am going to assume you would be able to
edit. You do have the option of removing or setting the height and width as you
see fit, then rename the Fishbone folder. Then you can select this new folder
as your skin of choice, without it being overwritten when you do updates.

-kdf

Pat Farrell
2004-02-29, 22:40
At 12:25 AM 3/1/2004, kdf wrote:
> > But when I select an album and it shows the tracks and cover on
> > the right-side frame, it uses the "thumb.jpg" and tells the browser
> > to make the "height=100" so the browser does the stretching.
> > Which distorts the images terribly. If it just wrote the HTML to
> > use albumartsmall.jpg it would look tons better.
>
>In the Fishbone skin, the browse by artwork AND status use the
>thumb.jpg. Both
>use the height constraint, and the thumbnails use width due to layout
>requirements.

And that part looks great.



>The Status side is intended to allow the art to appear in its
>native aspect ratio since the layout only relies on height. Are you requesting
>that the status constrict height AND width, or neither?

One choice would be to use the albumartsmall.jpg
since that is a lot closer to 100 pixels in size than
the thumb.jpg.

A second choice would be to not specify any size, just the <img> file
itself, and don't expect the browser to attempt to mangle/resize
the image to fit. Making an image smaller usually looks OK,
making one bigger with the standard stretch algorithm is way ugly
and not in keeping with the quality of the Slim Devices experience.

The more I think of it, the more I think that the Status side should
allow you to tell it to use the albumartsmall.jpg file and let it go free
without resizing.

Why have three file names with three implied sizes and only use two of them?
Clearly if there was no such file, you could use one or the other,
sized as appropriate.

>Both of these cases
>could pose problems when an image isn't 1:1 and for those who dont have
>thumb.jpgs sized to 100x100.

Perhaps that is the essence of my problem
The Amazon.com XML interface offers three sizes, the smallest
is typically 50x50.

I see no place in the ServerSettings to talk about the
albumartsmall.jpg filename, or its sizes. I also don't
see where any of the other skins try to use the cover art.


>Since you are able to read the code, I am going to assume you would be able to
>edit. You do have the option of removing or setting the height and width
>as you
>see fit, then rename the Fishbone folder. Then you can select this new folder
>as your skin of choice, without it being overwritten when you do updates.

Sure, but I'd call this a buglette. A better solution would be to
look at the jpgs and match the sizes of the image to the needs of
the skin.

Pat

kdf
2004-02-29, 23:04
Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:

> >The Status side is intended to allow the art to appear in its
> >native aspect ratio since the layout only relies on height. Are you
> requesting
> >that the status constrict height AND width, or neither?
>
> One choice would be to use the albumartsmall.jpg
> since that is a lot closer to 100 pixels in size than
> the thumb.jpg.
This is not how the server works. There are two references from within the
skins: cover.jpg, and thumb.jpg. Both search for valid artwork files from a
list, one optimised for large images, the other for small. You can also specify
either in the server settings. The list is as follows:
(cover albumartsmall folder album thumb), using .jpg and then .gif as extension.
ID3 artwork takes precedence, followed by any specified filename in the server
settings. thumb reverses the list so that thumb is found before cover. This
way, you can have a set of large images and a set of small ones.

I am still confused. Browse by artwork and status BOTH scale the same image
file found for Thumb. By default, the browse by artwork contrains to 100x100,
while the status contrains to 100 leaving aspect ratio intact. I would expect
the sizing to be handled by browser for both of them, and the browse by artwork
would cause aspect ratio distortion by necessity. Sad, but required
nonetheless. What size are your thumb.jpg files?

>
> A second choice would be to not specify any size, just the <img> file
> itself, and don't expect the browser to attempt to mangle/resize
> the image to fit. Making an image smaller usually looks OK,
> making one bigger with the standard stretch algorithm is way ugly
> and not in keeping with the quality of the Slim Devices experience.

This would cause havok for those who just have one sizes image. The large image
would wipe out the status information. In my case, where the bulk of my images
have in fact come from amazon or allmusic, they start at well over 100x100.

> The more I think of it, the more I think that the Status side should
> allow you to tell it to use the albumartsmall.jpg file and let it go free
> without resizing.
>
> Why have three file names with three implied sizes and only use two of them?
> Clearly if there was no such file, you could use one or the other,
> sized as appropriate.

There are only TWO file URL's, and a list of valid files that could be called up
for those URL's. There is no third.

> >Both of these cases
> >could pose problems when an image isn't 1:1 and for those who dont have
> >thumb.jpgs sized to 100x100.
>
> Perhaps that is the essence of my problem
> The Amazon.com XML interface offers three sizes, the smallest
> is typically 50x50.
>
> I see no place in the ServerSettings to talk about the
> albumartsmall.jpg filename, or its sizes. I also don't
> see where any of the other skins try to use the cover art.

Please read the section of the server settings for Interface, Artwork. it
explains the use of Cover and Thumb and how filenames like cover.jpg,
folder.jpg, album.jpg, albumartsmall.jpg might be used with them.

Both the Default AND Moser have browse by cover art. The Default skin does show
artwork when browsing to an album or song.

> >Since you are able to read the code, I am going to assume you would be able
> to
> >edit. You do have the option of removing or setting the height and width
> >as you
> >see fit, then rename the Fishbone folder. Then you can select this new
> folder
> >as your skin of choice, without it being overwritten when you do updates.
>
> Sure, but I'd call this a buglette. A better solution would be to
> look at the jpgs and match the sizes of the image to the needs of
> the skin.

and it has been. The skin needs a controlled size. Please see above.

perhaps to relieve the confusion, the URL's within the skins should refer to
cover and thumb, and skip the .jpg extension since it is misleading. This url
may refer to embedded ID3 ping images or cover.gif, thumb.gif, etc depending on
what is found in each folder or ID3 tag.

-kdf

Stuart
2004-03-01, 03:57
I forgot to press the snooze button again last night.

It would be really cool to have an option to always have the snooze
active. I listen to my Squeezebox last thing at night, and first thing
in the morning. On both occasions I want it to switch off after around
90 minutes.

S.

Victor Brilon
2004-03-01, 08:14
> Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:

[snip]

>>Perhaps that is the essence of my problem
>>The Amazon.com XML interface offers three sizes, the smallest
>>is typically 50x50.

Just as an FYI, it's not very common that Amazon actually has all 3
sizes. They tend to have the larger sizes more often than the smaller ones.

Victor

Pat Farrell
2004-03-01, 09:47
At 10:14 AM 3/1/2004, Victor Brilon wrote:
>>Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:
>>>Perhaps that is the essence of my problem
>>>The Amazon.com XML interface offers three sizes, the smallest
>>>is typically 50x50.
>
>Just as an FYI, it's not very common that Amazon actually has all 3 sizes.
>They tend to have the larger sizes more often than the smaller ones.

Well, I can only talk about my experiences, and for most the the 400 or
so CDs that I fetched images from Amazon, I got three files,
one about 30kb, one about 8 or 9kb, and one about 2kb.

Of course, sometimes they return three identical one pixel dummies.

And sometimes they return a one pixel dummy for one or the other
sizes.

It isn't perfect, but when it works, it works pretty well.

Pat

Pat Farrell
2004-03-01, 09:58
At 01:04 AM 3/1/2004, kdf wrote:
>Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:
>
> > >The Status side is intended to allow the art to appear in its
> > >native aspect ratio since the layout only relies on height. Are you
> > requesting
> > >that the status constrict height AND width, or neither?
> >
> > One choice would be to use the albumartsmall.jpg
> > since that is a lot closer to 100 pixels in size than
> > the thumb.jpg.
>This is not how the server works. There are two references from within the
>skins: cover.jpg, and thumb.jpg.

Yes, it is now clear that the server doesn't work the way I had hoped.
Specifically, albumartsmall seems to be ignored all times.
Yet it is discussed in some parts of the documentation, altho
exactly where, I can't quote chapter and verse.



>Both search for valid artwork files from a
>list, one optimised for large images, the other for small.

Too bad that the skins use three different sizes.


>I am still confused. Browse by artwork and status BOTH scale the same image
>file found for Thumb. By default, the browse by artwork contrains to 100x100,
>while the status contrains to 100 leaving aspect ratio intact. I would expect
>the sizing to be handled by browser for both of them, and the browse by
>artwork
>would cause aspect ratio distortion by necessity. Sad, but required
>nonetheless. What size are your thumb.jpg files?

The amazon.com provided cover art has three sizes. The one
I use for thumbs is 50x50 as I said earlier.
Their middle sized one is 130x128
and their big one is 300x296


>This would cause havok for those who just have one sizes image. The large
>image
>would wipe out the status information. In my case, where the bulk of my
>images
>have in fact come from amazon or allmusic, they start at well over 100x100.


Then they should use my utility that fetches all three sizes automagically.
This is the key "problem" in that the code only partially supports having three
sizes.

>There are only TWO file URL's, and a list of valid files that could be
>called up
>for those URL's. There is no third.

Ah ha!

>Please read the section of the server settings for Interface, Artwork. it
>explains the use of Cover and Thumb and how filenames like cover.jpg,
>folder.jpg, album.jpg, albumartsmall.jpg might be used with them.

I read them, clearly that section, like other parts is not quite as clear
as one would hope.

>Both the Default AND Moser have browse by cover art.

Yes, and it looks great.

>and it has been. The skin needs a controlled size. Please see above.
>
>perhaps to relieve the confusion, the URL's within the skins should refer to
>cover and thumb, and skip the .jpg extension since it is misleading. This url
>may refer to embedded ID3 ping images or cover.gif, thumb.gif, etc
>depending on
>what is found in each folder or ID3 tag.

Extensions are not the issue here. I read the list of three cover file names
and took that to mean that there were three sizes used.

The Status on the right of fishbone would look a lot better with the large
image
resized by the browser than the thumb blown up.

It is not a question of the code working perfectly when you have controlled
files
in the perfect sizes. It is a question of providing flexibility to support
sizes of images that can trivially be collected from Amazon and other places,
and knowing how the sizes are used. The webserver interface lets you say
how big the thumbs are, but doesn't say what that means, or what it expects.

Pat

kdf
2004-03-01, 10:52
Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:

> At 01:04 AM 3/1/2004, kdf wrote:
> >Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:
> >
> > > >The Status side is intended to allow the art to appear in its
> > > >native aspect ratio since the layout only relies on height. Are you
> > > requesting
> > > >that the status constrict height AND width, or neither?
> > >
> > > One choice would be to use the albumartsmall.jpg
> > > since that is a lot closer to 100 pixels in size than
> > > the thumb.jpg.
> >This is not how the server works. There are two references from within the
> >skins: cover.jpg, and thumb.jpg.
>
> Yes, it is now clear that the server doesn't work the way I had hoped.
> Specifically, albumartsmall seems to be ignored all times.
> Yet it is discussed in some parts of the documentation, altho
> exactly where, I can't quote chapter and verse.

You can enter albumartsmal.jpg as teh setting for thumb and it will overrride so
that this larger image is used.

> >Both search for valid artwork files from a
> >list, one optimised for large images, the other for small.
>
> Too bad that the skins use three different sizes.
no, they dont.

> >I am still confused. Browse by artwork and status BOTH scale the same
> image
> >file found for Thumb. By default, the browse by artwork contrains to
> 100x100,
> >while the status contrains to 100 leaving aspect ratio intact. I would
> expect
> >the sizing to be handled by browser for both of them, and the browse by
> >artwork
> >would cause aspect ratio distortion by necessity. Sad, but required
> >nonetheless. What size are your thumb.jpg files?
>
> The amazon.com provided cover art has three sizes. The one
> I use for thumbs is 50x50 as I said earlier.
> Their middle sized one is 130x128
> and their big one is 300x296

of course, you now assume that everyone uses amazon standard sizes and names.

> >This would cause havok for those who just have one sizes image. The large
> >image
> >would wipe out the status information. In my case, where the bulk of my
> >images
> >have in fact come from amazon or allmusic, they start at well over 100x100.
>
>
> Then they should use my utility that fetches all three sizes automagically.
> This is the key "problem" in that the code only partially supports having
> three
> sizes.

good luck convincing every user to do this.

>
> >and it has been. The skin needs a controlled size. Please see above.
> >
> >perhaps to relieve the confusion, the URL's within the skins should refer
> to
> >cover and thumb, and skip the .jpg extension since it is misleading. This
> url
> >may refer to embedded ID3 ping images or cover.gif, thumb.gif, etc
> >depending on
> >what is found in each folder or ID3 tag.
>
> Extensions are not the issue here. I read the list of three cover file names
> and took that to mean that there were three sizes used.

ok. I'm having a hard time seeing how you get three. I can see that its not
clear, that not all five filenames are used, but why you get three of five, I'm
not sure. However, if you'd like to submit a patch to clear it up, please do.
There is also a planned update to the skins documentation to deal with artwork.

> The Status on the right of fishbone would look a lot better with the large
> image
> resized by the browser than the thumb blown up.
>
> It is not a question of the code working perfectly when you have controlled
> files
> in the perfect sizes. It is a question of providing flexibility to support
> sizes of images that can trivially be collected from Amazon and other
> places,
> and knowing how the sizes are used. The webserver interface lets you say
> how big the thumbs are, but doesn't say what that means, or what it expects.

Yes, but sadlyl not everyoen has prefect sizes. The last complaint that went on
like this was due to a user having embedded high res scans. 1M for each image,
and the performance cost of having that rendered so many times by the skin. The
skin allows all sizes of images. If you dont like the small ones, then you have
a workaround:

Go to server settings, interface.
Enter albumartsmall.jpg in the box for Artwork Thumbnail.
Press Change
Browse

This should now use your preferred albumartsmall.jpg for all skin references to
thumb. This also has the benefit of speeding up the scan since it will skip
searching a hardwired list if the preferred one is found first.

-kdf

Pat Farrell
2004-03-01, 11:24
KDF,

I think you are coming at this from a very different angle than I am.
Your answers are very defensive, and I am not attacking you
or anyone else.

At 12:52 PM 3/1/2004, kdf wrote:
> > Yes, it is now clear that the server doesn't work the way I had hoped.
> > Specifically, albumartsmall seems to be ignored all times.
> > Yet it is discussed in some parts of the documentation, altho
> > exactly where, I can't quote chapter and verse.
>
>You can enter albumartsmal.jpg as teh setting for thumb and it will
>overrride so
>that this larger image is used.

Of course.
But that does no good when the skin should use three
different sizes, and when you have three different sizes to use.


> Too bad that the skins use three different sizes.
>no, they dont.

Well, they sure act like it.
The user can tell that the thumb is 50 pixels and that is used
for the browse artwork.
But the Right-side fishbone blows it up to 100 pixels.

And the big picture is way more than 100 pixels.


> > The amazon.com provided cover art has three sizes. The one
> > I use for thumbs is 50x50 as I said earlier.
> > Their middle sized one is 130x128
> > and their big one is 300x296
>
>of course, you now assume that everyone uses amazon standard sizes and names.

No, I'm stating that if one uses the three readily available amazon sizes,
and if the skin needs to use three sizes, we should be able to
specify that.


> > Then they should use my utility that fetches all three sizes automagically.
> > This is the key "problem" in that the code only partially supports having
> > three sizes.
>good luck convincing every user to do this.

Duh, lighten up.
The point is that if you use any tool, like my free one,
you get three sizes automatically, and the skin
could really, really use three sizes.

> > Extensions are not the issue here. I read the list of three cover file
> names
> > and took that to mean that there were three sizes used.
>
>ok. I'm having a hard time seeing how you get three. I can see that its not
>clear, that not all five filenames are used, but why you get three of
>five, I'm
>not sure. However, if you'd like to submit a patch to clear it up, please
>do.
>There is also a planned update to the skins documentation to deal with
>artwork.

How to submit patches is a question that I've raised and is outstanding
on the developer's list. Off topic for this place.


>Go to server settings, interface.
>Enter albumartsmall.jpg in the box for Artwork Thumbnail.
>Press Change
>Browse

No, this then uses the larger image everywhere the thumb is used.
It has the opposite problem.

Pat

kdf
2004-03-01, 11:56
Quoting Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com>:

> KDF,
>
> I think you are coming at this from a very different angle than I am.
> Your answers are very defensive, and I am not attacking you
> or anyone else.
ok. I'm sorry you feel that way.
>
> At 12:52 PM 3/1/2004, kdf wrote:
> > > Yes, it is now clear that the server doesn't work the way I had hoped.
> > > Specifically, albumartsmall seems to be ignored all times.
> > > Yet it is discussed in some parts of the documentation, altho
> > > exactly where, I can't quote chapter and verse.
> >
> >You can enter albumartsmal.jpg as teh setting for thumb and it will
> >overrride so
> >that this larger image is used.
>
> Of course.
> But that does no good when the skin should use three
> different sizes, and when you have three different sizes to use.

its uses two, and will only use two. If you get three, that's great. The skins
only use two. Perhaps, once the optimisations planned for after 5.1.1 can get
the performance up fast enough, then we could add a third. For now, there are
two. Large and Small. I'm sorry this doesn't match your requirements exactly,
but that's all there is for teh time being


> > Too bad that the skins use three different sizes.
> >no, they dont.
>
> Well, they sure act like it.
> The user can tell that the thumb is 50 pixels and that is used
> for the browse artwork.
> But the Right-side fishbone blows it up to 100 pixels.
>
> And the big picture is way more than 100 pixels.
The point is, that you are sizing the browse by artwork to 50. The status uses
the same image, but requires a 100 pixel size. I'm sorry again, but I felt a
layout that didn't break was more important.

> > > The amazon.com provided cover art has three sizes. The one
> > > I use for thumbs is 50x50 as I said earlier.
> > > Their middle sized one is 130x128
> > > and their big one is 300x296
> >
> >of course, you now assume that everyone uses amazon standard sizes and
> names.
>
> No, I'm stating that if one uses the three readily available amazon sizes,
> and if the skin needs to use three sizes, we should be able to
> specify that.
ok.
>
>
> > > Then they should use my utility that fetches all three sizes
> automagically.
> > > This is the key "problem" in that the code only partially supports
> having
> > > three sizes.
> >good luck convincing every user to do this.
>
> Duh, lighten up.
> The point is that if you use any tool, like my free one,
> you get three sizes automatically, and the skin
> could really, really use three sizes.
right, at this point, I'm done. I'm sorry you dont like it. You can always make
your own skin, and request a feature enhancement on bugs.slimdevices.com to have
a third size. I'm with you on that, but it has to wait until performance get
speed up enough to allow it. Until then, someone else can answer you on this.

-kdf

-kdf