PDA

View Full Version : AlbumArtist, Band (TPE2); Artist sort confusion (flac)



ModelCitizen
2008-05-04, 01:32
Hello,

I'm dead confused about the way SlimServer handles these tags.

My desire is simple (I think).
Using an album by Arvo Part as an example.
I have set the Artist tag to Arvo Part. The AlbumArtist tag is Set To Hilliard Ensemble.

When I list my library by Artist I'd like to see the album listed under both The Hilliard Ensemble and also Arvo Part. But I can't seem to make this happen.

Under SC7 > Settings > Library there are the following two options:

* List albums by all artists for that album
* List albums by band

Is it posssible that what I want is a third option, i.e:

* List album by both artist and band?

Any help appreciated. If it makes any difference I'm talking about Flac files (but I imagine it works the same for any file type).

MC

Philip Meyer
2008-05-04, 05:12
>When I list my library by Artist I'd like to see the album listed under
>both The Hilliard Ensemble and also Arvo Part. But I can't seem to make
>this happen.
>
Sounds like you have set proper album artist tag for grouping songs on an album to appear under your chosen primary artist, when really you intended to use band. You should add a band tag (band=The Hilliard Ensemble). Then, in the Music Library settings, Composer, Band and Orchestra, tick Band/Orchestra.

This will then allow band/orchestra contributor roles to appear in the list of artists and be searchable.

It sounds like you don't need your album artist tag (you only need to set an album artist tag if the songs on the album have different performing primary artists).

ModelCitizen
2008-05-04, 07:04
I'll try this. It sounds like just the ticket.

Thanks Phil.

MC

aubuti
2008-05-04, 07:42
When I list my library by Artist I'd like to see the album listed under both The Hilliard Ensemble and also Arvo Part. But I can't seem to make this happen.
Can't you also make this work by putting both in the Artist tag? Either with an SC-defined separator (like a semi-colon, eg, "Arvo Part; The Hilliard Ensemble") or with multiple artist tags, which flac and SC both support?

ModelCitizen
2008-05-04, 08:13
Can't you also make this work by putting both in the Artist tag? Either with an SC-defined separator (like a semi-colon, eg, "Arvo Part; The Hilliard Ensemble") or with multiple artist tags, which flac and SC both support?
Yes, I probably could too. It looks like I completely misunderstood the nature of the AlbumArtist tag. I am currently a quarter of the way through retagging my files that contain the AlbumArtist tag to Phil's suggestion above, using Band, Composer etc tags which seems the "correct" way to do it.... although as most of the music I have this problem is with is classical the BAND tag would be better called PERFORMER.

Thanks,

MC

MrSinatra
2008-05-04, 11:06
hi MC,

your problem is somewhat different from mine, (as per your pm).

i think you're now on the right track, but let me point out some things.

first, you're using FLAC, my deal used mp3. also, i don't think FLAC has a "normal" tagging standard/spec, but i don't know, i don't use it. mp3 has id3v2.3 as its normal or common tagging standard.

my problem comes in b/c there is no album artist tag in 2.3. TPE2 is by spec, for the band tag, but the reality is a defacto standard among users and apps has since come to pass that has made TPE2 the 2.3 version of an album artist tag. this is of course, erroneous, but necessary if one is going to have album artist functionality with the 2.3 spec.

getting back to you...

you will freely be able to set an ARTIST tag, BAND tag, and ALBUMARTIST tag.

however, (it is my understanding), that if you set the BAND tag, that you can denote that album as by that tag, but you can NOT sort the album by that tag.

so in order to get the album to sort in the right spot (to match up with info in the BAND tag), you'd have to make the ALBUMARTIST tag match whats in the BAND tag.

once you did that, i am not sure if you could then sort by the ARTIST tag. i think ALBUMARTIST always overrides ARTIST for purposes of sorting, but i could be wrong.

MrSinatra
2008-05-04, 11:32
btw, when i say sorting i mean:

home -> albums -> gallery (artwork) view -> sort by artist, year, album

Philip Meyer
2008-05-04, 12:12
>however, (it is my understanding), that if you set the BAND tag, that
>you can denote that album as by that tag, but you can NOT sort the
>album by that tag.
>
I don't think that ModelCitizen has a problem with grouping or sorting.

He just wants to identify additional performing artists on the songs. Setting a Band/Orchestra will allow the album to be browsed under either the lead (main performing) artist, or under the band. Browsing the album or songs on the album would display as being "by artist" (or "by band" if list by band is ticked in the preferences).

i.e. if songs on an album are tagged with ARTIST=x, BAND=y, then he could navigate to the album via "Browse Artists > x > album name" and "Browse Artists > y > album name".

There's no need for ALBUMARTIST at all, if all artists on each song on the album are exactly the same.

The artists in the browse artist list will be correctly sorted by ARTISTSORT.

With "Browse Album" mode, each album appears only once - at least when sorted by album name (the default for browsing albums) you would expect to see each album once. When Browse Albums is sorted by "Artist", I would expect that the album should only appear in the list once still, so I would expect to see the album sorted under the main performing artist (eg. x), and not by the band contributor role.

If there were different artists on the album, and a proper ALBUMARTIST tag was set, then the album would be listed under that album artist, instead of as a compilation album. This should work properly too when using Browse Albums sorted by artist (will sort by album artist if there is one for the album).

pippin
2008-05-04, 13:39
I don't think that ModelCitizen has a problem with grouping or sorting.

Could we PLEASE stop this. We killed the other thread with that, no need to do it again, Mr Sinatra DID state he has a different issue.


When Browse Albums is sorted by "Artist", I would expect that the album should only appear in the list once

Me not. It's not what iTunes does, for example and I think it's good. I'm not even sure if it's what SC does (depending on the "show compilations with artist/under compilations" pref).
Here's what I would like to see (at least as an option):

- If the album is a compilation and set to be: show it only under compilations
- If an album is NOT a compilation but has several performers/bands/artists/TPE2 on it, I want it to show up under EVERY ONE OF THESE. Rationale: When I'm looking for Nigel Kennedy Tracks I also want to find them when he's playing with some orchestra I don't know. And if I'm looking for tracks by the Berlin Philharmonics, I also want to find 'em when they are playing with Nigel Kennedy. Same holds true for Robbie Williams playing with Kylie Minogue, it's not a classic vs. pop issue.

And please don't tell me I should search for the tracks differently, I AM AWARE that I can use search and browse by artist and all of that I just prefer to search by album and see the covers and I don't want to have my behavior changed but my software. As you probably know I AM prepared to invest a considerable amount of effort to get there, so discussions on this are moot ;-)

adamslim
2008-05-04, 14:22
List album by both artist and band?

If you do the ; separator thing, you have to be careful with artistsort. I use artistsort so Arvo Part comes under P, so artist might be Arvo Part and artistsort is Part, Arvo.

The problem comes whan you have more than one artist. It does some odd things, listing things unpredictably; I think you can get around this by making sure that you have matching artist and artistsort tags with the two artists in the same order, but I got bored with the whole thing.

The solution is to use custom browse, and use the dynamic tags. With this you can browse either by conductor, orchestra or composer, whatever you can be bothered to tag - but it really makes sense to separate your classical music from the rest.

Ultimately, you know if you're searching by orchestra or whatever, so it really doesn't make that much sense to have both in artist, IMO.

adamslim
2008-05-04, 14:27
Me not. It's not what iTunes does, for example and I think it's good. I'm not even sure if it's what SC does (depending on the "show compilations with artist/under compilations" pref).
Here's what I would like to see (at least as an option):

- If the album is a compilation and set to be: show it only under compilations
- If an album is NOT a compilation but has several performers/bands/artists/TPE2 on it, I want it to show up under EVERY ONE OF THESE.

I agree that the regular behaviour of SC needs sorting out here. Custom Browse is a workaround, and does all that I need, but all the issues over various artists are just silly. Resource by SD should be invested on making the various possibilities selectable options - how hard can it be?

pippin
2008-05-04, 15:11
Custom Browse is a workaround, and does all that I need,

Have you generated a custom menu or do the default ones do this? Haven't noticed that.

adamslim
2008-05-04, 15:24
Have you generated a custom menu or do the default ones do this? Haven't noticed that.

I use the (default) dynamic tags system, using custom scan to scan in additional tags. This gives me what I want (which actually does not directly sort out the problem, but would, I think, if you tagged your files appropriately).

Have you seen erland's wiki?
http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Setup:_Add_browse_menus_and_information_for_classi cal_music_to_SlimServer

Edit: it solves the OP's problem. Your issue re unpredictability of various artists is more complex. I would suggest having artist and 'otherartist' tags, with multiple values allowed for each, although you would need to set up a browse menu that matched either, not just one, and the whole sorting thing would be a nightmare too.

pippin
2008-05-04, 15:40
I use the (default) dynamic tags system, using custom scan to scan in additional tags. This gives me what I want (which actually does not directly sort out the problem, but would, I think, if you tagged your files appropriately).

Have you seen erland's wiki?
http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Setup:_Add_browse_menus_and_information_for_classi cal_music_to_SlimServer

Edit: it solves the OP's problem. Your issue re unpredictability of various artists is more complex. I would suggest having artist and 'otherartist' tags, with multiple values allowed for each, although you would need to set up a browse menu that matched either, not just one, and the whole sorting thing would be a nightmare too.

Yes, but Custom Browse and Custom Scan are so powerful it typically let's my head spin ;-)

I also don't have the time and patience to tag all my stuff by hand, haven't even finished to put all the cover art into the tags correctly, another pain in the ass, they are all fine in iTunes but single tracks still lack coverage in SC...
What I would like to see if the tags from iTunes get imported and used correctly. I'm not too obsessed with quality (I just bought a Bose system for a second room just to find it's still way inferior to my 20 year old main setup with a low-priced amp and those fine Canton 3-way speakers) so I sample at least my pop stuff with iTunes to 192kBit mp3. That way I will typically have an artist for every track and if there are multiple tracks there's also an albumartist. Some albums have the latter in the TPE2 tag (back in the old days I used musicmatch until it ceased working and started generating crap).

So if I could get this to work in the way I mentioned above I'm completely happy.

Philip Meyer
2008-05-05, 01:35
>Could we PLEASE stop this. We killed the other thread with that, no
>need to do it again, Mr Sinatra DID state he has a different issue.
I don't know why you keep picking on me - Mr Sinatra wrote another large email, mainly bringing up info about the other thread rather than answering ModelCitizen's actual problem, and I write one line to say that his problem isn't the same issue.

>Here's what I would like to see (at least as an option):
>
And now you've responded off topic too!

>When I'm looking for Nigel Kennedy Tracks I
>also want to find them when he's playing with some orchestra I don't
>know.
>
I can't see what is wrong with Browse Artists > Nigel Kennedy with artwork view turned on? That seems to be exactly the output you want to see. In addition, it will work faster (because the UI won't be rendering other albums by artists you are not looking for, and you don't have to scroll down to find the ones in the album list that have your desired artist.

The option to change sort order appears in album context for all browse methods. eg. Browse Years, pick a year, to get a view of albums in that year.

Sorting by album or year options are fine, as it is only possible to have one album name and one year associated with each album. Mr Sinatra wanted TPE2 to be used as Album Artist such that this would also be fine for sorting by album (as there would always be only one artist name to sort the list by), and I think we are okay with that discussion; an enhancement request has been raised.

However, sorting albums by genre would still be a problem; and there's no way of specifying the primary genre. I guess it always sorts the album by the first genre tag when there are more than one?

What you want is when album context is sorted by artist first, for albums with more than one performer (no Album Artist defined and not a compilation) to appear under each performer. I guess this should be the same with album context sorted by genre (album to appear under each genre). Sorting album context by genre is especially weird, as the genre isn't even displayed next to each album.

I suggest you raise an enhancement request.

Phil

MrSinatra
2008-05-05, 01:54
my "large" email was smaller than the previous one to this post. and frankly, it wasn't large, it takes all of 20 seconds to read.

FYI: MC sent me a PM, he wanted me to see this thread and respond if i had a comment. i did mention this.

so, i was in fact speaking to MCs problem as per his request. i explained how our problems are different but how also they might be similar.

what we don't know yet, b/c MC hasn't had a chance to respond yet i would guess, is that if he does want to be able to sort by his BAND tags.

if he does, then he will need to use the ALBUMARTIST tag as i stated. and also as i stated, i think this would preclude him from being able to sort by just the ARTIST tag, but maybe i'm wrong.

i agree with you that he should probably switch all his albumartist tags to band tags in his files, but when he does that, he will not be able to sort by the band tags.

i don't know why you assume this isn't a concern for him?

(i am curious as to how his tags worked when he had both ARTIST and ALBUMARTIST set in SC7. i assumed ALBUMARTIST always over-rode ARTIST for sorting, is this not the case?)

pippin
2008-05-05, 02:15
>Could we PLEASE stop this. We killed the other thread with that, no
>need to do it again, Mr Sinatra DID state he has a different issue.
I don't know why you keep picking on me

I don't. I said "WE", I agree that I had my fair share in that as well.


And now you've responded off topic too!

Off topic as to MC's problem: yes. Anyway, that seems to be solved.


I can't see what is wrong with Browse Artists > Nigel Kennedy with artwork view turned on? That seems to be exactly the output you want to see.

Listen. We can discuss this until the cows come home. I WANT TO BROWSE ALL MY ALBUMS. PERIOD. I DON'T WANT TO BE TOLD TO CHANGE WHAT I WANT. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO STUPID THINGS. I DON'T DEMAND THAT YOU DO ALIKE.

When I know from the beginning, that I want to listen to Nigel Kennedy I do exactly that, but when I don't, I browse my albums, and then I want 'em sorted as I said. Can't be that difficult, iTunes can do it. BTW, the way iTunes does this is quite simple: it sorts all TRACKS by artist and then groups together consecutive instances of the same album but NOT the ones that show up in different places. What I don't like on iTunes is that it does this for compilations as well (actually sometimes I like it, when I find an artist I was looking for vs. I don't like it when I don't find one and the compilation shows up 28 times).
I KNOW this is a bit different from what I proposed (does not work in the Nigel Kennedy case) but it's a start. I would prefer to see what I proposed.


However, sorting albums by genre would still be a problem;

Interesting point. Just to avoid confusion: I didn't ask for genre. But I admit that sorting this out could finally render genres useful.


I suggest you raise an enhancement request.

Yep. I should, indeed.

ModelCitizen
2008-05-05, 02:44
MC sent me a PM, he wanted me to see this thread and respond if i had a comment.
'tis true. And thanks for your comments, clarification and help.

what we don't know yet, b/c MC hasn't had a chance to respond yet i would guess, is that if he does want to be able to sort by his BAND tags. If he does, then he will need to use the ALBUMARTIST tag as i stated. and also as i stated, i think this would preclude him from being able to sort by just the ARTIST tag, but maybe i'm wrong.
i agree with you that he should probably switch all his albumartist tags to band tags in his files, but when he does that, he will not be able to sort by the band tags. I don't know why you assume this isn't a concern for him?
(I am curious as to how his tags worked when he had both ARTIST and ALBUMARTIST set in SC7. i assumed ALBUMARTIST always over-rode ARTIST for sorting, is this not the case?)

I have just this minute finished getting rid of the annoying AlbumArtist tag. I need to get rid of it as it over-rides the artists tag in the sort. As per my original post. I wanted both the Artist and the AlbumArtist tag to appear in an Artist sort, but unfortunately this did not happen (with the result that such luminaries as Bach, Mozart and Part failed to appear in my Artist sort)..

I've now gone and put the stuff I had originally put into AlbumArtist tag into the Band, Composer, Conductor tags as appropriate. Although not relevant here, in some cases I have also added the record label into the band tag for labels that have a very distinct and recognisable output (Fax, Ultimae, Mille Plateaux, TIP.Records, Council of Nine etc).

I am very much hoping that when I sort by Artist now, the list will include all entries from the following tags (as Phil indicated they will if I check the Music Library > Composer, Band and Orchestra in Artists options):

Artist
Band/Label
Composer
Conductor

Then I'll be a happy bunny. It'll be another 2 hours before I can be sure as I have to initiate a scan now... :-(

Thanks for all you help chaps... and remember... we live, and then we die.

MC

pippin
2008-05-05, 02:56
MC, you are using flac, aren't you?
Do you know if the same behavior applies when using mp3?
I mean: that would be 90% of what I want, too.
Regarding "duplicate" entries: Ass of Phil's comments I assume each album only shows up once. So WHERE does it actually show up (is these an order of precedence if several tags are given)? Or are you talking about the "browse by artists" menu instead of album (you wrote "artist sort").

I still didn't figure out how to do all this in CustomBrowse...

ModelCitizen
2008-05-05, 03:09
I think I may have thrown you a wobbly with the word "sort". All I am trying to do is get Conductors, Composers, Bands and record labels included the list produced as a result of Browse Artists.

And... what's an MP3?
:-)

Sorry for the confusion.

MC

adamslim
2008-05-05, 07:48
I still didn't figure out how to do all this in CustomBrowse...

I don't know either, but I think it might be worth asking erland to get involved. In principle, all one would need to do is effectively amend the query so that instead of returning the albums where the artists match the criterion, it returns the albums where the artists OR band OR whatevertag match the criterion. Doesn't sound too hard to me (although my database knowledge is limited to fluffy Access).

This would probably be a useful enhancement for many people. If it were set up so that a menu existed where you could enter the tags that you wanted to use for an 'artist' match (with the default just ARTIST, of course), there would be great flexibility.

pippin
2008-05-05, 08:06
I don't know either, but I think it might be worth asking erland to get involved. In principle, all one would need to do is effectively amend the query so that instead of returning the albums where the artists match the criterion, it returns the albums where the artists OR band OR whatevertag match the criterion. Doesn't sound too hard to me (although my database knowledge is limited to fluffy Access).

This would probably be a useful enhancement for many people. If it were set up so that a menu existed where you could enter the tags that you wanted to use for an 'artist' match (with the default just ARTIST, of course), there would be great flexibility.


You're right, I'll mail him.

erland
2008-05-05, 11:06
You're right, I'll mail him.

I'm already here, there is just too much arguing in these threads to keep my interest up to find the relevant posts.

Is there some files that is available somewhere which can be used to reproduce the problematic behaviour ?

Some files together with a description of how you would like it to be displaed in SqueezeCenter would make it a lot easier to get involved. I currently have to little time to read through all posts in all the thread related to this to find the ones that describes the problem. So if you could summarize the problem it would help a lot.

I think I remember seeing some files in a problem report related to this, can these be used to reproduce your problem ?

MrSinatra
2008-05-05, 11:25
i can only speak for myself, but i posted 4 mp3s in bug 8001 that reproduce my problem.

essentially, i want to be able to sort mp3s via the TPE2 tag in home -> albums -> artwork (gallery) view -> then sorting by artist, year, album

this essentially would override the Various Artists logic that SC7 uses.

the thing is however, once this is done, it might reveal other issues and need more refinements, but i hope that doesn't demotivate anyone from doing this essential part first.

thx.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8001

ps. AndyG might be working on it for 7.1 as of now anyway, but i don't know. (i do think it should be part of the program proper, not a hack or a plugin, although at this point, it would be nice to have until it is)

MrSinatra
2008-05-05, 12:26
'tis true. And thanks for your comments, clarification and help.

np. happy to do it.


I have just this minute finished getting rid of the annoying AlbumArtist tag. I need to get rid of it as it over-rides the artists tag in the sort.

ok, cool. so its established then that an album artist tag in your files populates the ALBUMARTIST field in SC7, and that then becomes the only way you could sort your music.

yes?

b/c i would think thats true.

now, as to your "wobbly..." i can't speak to how artists come up in the artist list, i almost never use it. but it sounds like ALBUMARTIST over rode it all the time. by removing it, and checking the other categories, you now see ALL the fields, right?

this raises very interesting questions...

i think a SC7 user should be able to sort their music via almost any tag they please. i also think you should be able to create a list of various tags into one master sorted list.

but obviously, thats way beyond where we are now.

whats interesting, is that you could not see or do anything with the data in your other tags when you had album artist listed in your tags.


As per my original post. I wanted both the Artist and the AlbumArtist tag to appear in an Artist sort, but unfortunately this did not happen (with the result that such luminaries as Bach, Mozart and Part failed to appear in my Artist sort)..

right, you only got ALBUMARTIST.

i agree that ideally you should be able to choose, artist, albumartist, or a combo of the two for listing / sorting purposes.

and i would add other tags to that, such as BAND, COMPOSER, etc...

we have a mysql dbase, why not exploit it?


I've now gone and put the stuff I had originally put into AlbumArtist tag into the Band, Composer, Conductor tags as appropriate. Although not relevant here, in some cases I have also added the record label into the band tag for labels that have a very distinct and recognisable output (Fax, Ultimae, Mille Plateaux, TIP.Records, Council of Nine etc).

so now you have no album artist tags, and as a result, with the three checkboxes checked, you can see everything in your home -> artists list.

where i think you would have an issue, if it mattered to you, is when you went to sort your music in home -> albums -> artowrk (gallery) view -> sort by artist, year, album.

this is b/c things may not "group" where you think them logical to.


I am very much hoping that when I sort by Artist now, the list will include all entries from the following tags (as Phil indicated they will if I check the Music Library > Composer, Band and Orchestra in Artists options):

Artist
Band/Label
Composer
Conductor

Then I'll be a happy bunny. It'll be another 2 hours before I can be sure as I have to initiate a scan now... :-(

Thanks for all you help chaps... and remember... we live, and then we die.

MC

i think phil is right, but i'd love to hear from you if your situation is now sorted out.

also, i am curious if you could tell me your impressions of my sorting method on your music. it may not appear wrong to you, b/c in your case, it may not be, as you are using classical music only, (or so it would seem).

thx.

ModelCitizen
2008-05-05, 15:04
ok, cool. so its established then that an album artist tag in your files populates the ALBUMARTIST field in SC7, and that then becomes the only way you could sort your music.
I have to admit that I am not sure what the problem being dicussed here is.. but anyway....
When I had populated the AlbumArtist tag for some albums and Browsed by Artist I could only locate those albums by the AlbumArtist tag in the resltant list. They were not listed by their Artist tag anymore. So, the AlbumArtist tag appeared to overide the Artist tag.... **when I browsed by Artist**

I hope that is clear?


now, as to your "wobbly..." i can't speak to how artists come up in the artist list, i almost never use it. but it sounds like ALBUMARTIST over rode it all the time. by removing it, and checking the other categories, you now see ALL the fields, right?
The way you put it is not exact.
This is better....but I must reiterate... I was only concerned with Browse by Artist. Once I had removed the AlbumArtist tag from the albums the albums in question were again listed by their Artist tag (when I Browsed by Artist).
Once I'd checked the relevant SC7 Music Library option I mentioned above and completed the Composer, Band, Conductor tags these too appeared in the Browse by Artist list.... as well as the Artist.


whats interesting, is that you could not see or do anything with the data in your other tags when you had album artist listed in your tags. right, you only got ALBUMARTIST.
No, that's not what I experienced... but that is not to say it's not true... it's just that I did not get the chance to experience it as I did not look around to see that AlbumArtist tag overode all other tags. All I noticed was that when completed it overode the Artist tag when I Browsed by Artist.


so now you have no album artist tags, and as a result, with the three checkboxes checked, you can see everything in your home -> artists list.

This might be true but the only thing that I am sure is true is that I removed the AlbumArtist tag and as a result the albums in question are now again being listed by Artist in Browse by Artist.

However, hen I added the Composer, Conductor and Band tags then those tags also became visible in the Browse by Artist list. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't have had I still had AlbumArtist tag completed. I just don't know as I entered these tags after I had removed the AlbumArtist tag.


also, i am curious if you could tell me your impressions of my sorting method on your music. it may not appear wrong to you, b/c in your case, it may not be, as you are using classical music only, (or so it would seem).

Me? Or Phil?

For my part, I am lost I'm afraid. It looks me that I do not view/list music the way you do... and also not in the way Phil or Erland do.
FYI it's Classical music that gave me the biggest problem.. just due to the fact that there are a lot more acknowledged roles involved in the production of classical music (i.e. Composer, Conductor, Orchestra, Violinist, Choir etc...). My problem was not solely confined to Classical music however.

MC

slimkid
2008-05-05, 17:47
I have to admit that I am not sure what the problem being dicussed here is.. but anyway....
When I had populated the AlbumArtist tag for some albums and Browsed by Artist I could only locate those albums by the AlbumArtist tag in the resltant list. They were not listed by their Artist tag anymore. So, the AlbumArtist tag appeared to overide the Artist tag.... **when I browsed by Artist**

I hope that is clear?

MC

If you set COMPILATION=0 on those tracks, you would have albumartist as well as all your artists listed. In Album view, albums would be listed by albumartist. In artist view, all artists would show, and they would show all the albums where they appear.

ModelCitizen
2008-05-05, 23:48
If you set COMPILATION=0 on those tracks, you would have albumartist as well as all your artists listed. In Album view, albums would be listed by albumartist. In artist view, all artists would show, and they would show all the albums where they appear.
I'm surprised by this, mainly as I assumed that if the compilation tag was not completed then the default setting waould be COMPILATION=0.
Anyway, it doesn't sound as if this is ideal either, as in Album view, albums would be listed by AlbumArtist, and I'd prefer them listed by the Artist.

Phil's suggestion has worked for me and (apart from the Record Label hack) I have the added satisfaction of knowing that my tags are set as correctly as they can be (within the constraints of what seems to be a pretty poor standard)! :-)

MC

slimkid
2008-05-06, 09:48
I'm surprised by this, mainly as I assumed that if the compilation tag was not completed then the default setting waould be COMPILATION=0.
Anyway, it doesn't sound as if this is ideal either, as in Album view, albums would be listed by AlbumArtist, and I'd prefer them listed by the Artist.
...
MC

Yap, that was a big surprise for me too. There are threee discrete states here, COMP=0, COMP=1 and no COMP at all. Now, cross it with other possibilities (single artist, multiple artists, single disc, multiple discs, band, no band ....) you get the idea. Not all scenarios are handled, some behavior is simply result of 'slip through' in the program logic.

I use ALBUMARTIST only if I want an album to be listed by it, otherwise ARTIST should do. Mostly it is because sometimes I care about the performer and want to see it in the artist list, sometimes not. For example, if the composer is Chopin, he goes into ARTIST, if the performer is Pogorelich, he becomes ALBUMARTIST; if the performer is Ashkenazy, he goes into BAND or COMMENT and ALBUMARTIST remains non existent. Tracks get COMPILATION=0. That way Albums in album view are listed by Pogorelich (where he plays) or Chopin (where Ashkenazy plays). Both Pogorelich and Chopin show in Artist view and underneath that are all their participating albums. Generally, for tagging clasiccal music, composer always gets ARTIST tag, and depending if I'm interested in performer or not, they can get ALBUMARTIST, BAND or COMMENT.

In more interesting example, Ray Charles plays with bunch of his friends. For some of them I care, for some not. So every friend is ARTIST on his own track, Ray Charles is ALBUMARTIST and the friends I care about get COMPILATION=0, others don't have that tag at all.

K

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 10:12
Me? Or Phil?

For my part, I am lost I'm afraid. It looks me that I do not view/list music the way you do... and also not in the way Phil or Erland do.
FYI it's Classical music that gave me the biggest problem.. just due to the fact that there are a lot more acknowledged roles involved in the production of classical music (i.e. Composer, Conductor, Orchestra, Violinist, Choir etc...). My problem was not solely confined to Classical music however.

MC

MC,

thx for taking the time to answer my questions, i understood all your responses.

the only question i have now, is in the webUI, when you go home -> albums -> artwork (gallery) view -> sort by artist, year, album

...does it then seem to still be sorted correctly? both in general, and in the Various Artists section?

thx.

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 10:17
Yap, that was a big surprise for me too. There are threee discrete states here, COMP=0, COMP=1 and no COMP at all. Now, cross it with other possibilities (single artist, multiple artists, single disc, multiple discs, band, no band ....) you get the idea. Not all scenarios are handled, some behavior is simply result of 'slip through' in the program logic.

I use ALBUMARTIST only if I want an album to be listed by it, otherwise ARTIST should do. Mostly it is because sometimes I care about the performer and want to see it in the artist list, sometimes not. For example, if the composer is Chopin, he goes into ARTIST, if the performer is Pogorelich, he becomes ALBUMARTIST; if the performer is Ashkenazy, he goes into BAND or COMMENT and ALBUMARTIST remains non existent. Tracks get COMPILATION=0. That way Albums in album view are listed by Pogorelich (where he plays) or Chopin (where Ashkenazy plays). Both Pogorelich and Chopin show in Artist view and underneath that are all their participating albums. Generally, for tagging clasiccal music, composer always gets ARTIST tag, and depending if I'm interested in performer or not, they can get ALBUMARTIST, BAND or COMMENT.

In more interesting example, Ray Charles plays with bunch of his friends. For some of them I care, for some not. So every friend is ARTIST on his own track, Ray Charles is ALBUMARTIST and the friends I care about get COMPILATION=0, others don't have that tag at all.

K

can you please explain this a bit more to me...

i have another thread where i say the VA logic is useless. i go on to say that a user should say a comp is a comp explicitly, either by comp tag or having terms SC7 would know are for comps.

so i think we both understand that "Compilation=1" is the user telling SC7 that it must consider the album to be a compilation.

why then, would "Compilation=0" and having no comp tag at all, not be considered the same thing?

(would they be considered the same thing if the VA logic didn't exist?)

how exactly does SC7 treat these two discrete states differently?

i'm just confused by this.

slimkid
2008-05-06, 11:46
can you please explain this a bit more to me...

.....

Nothing much to explain. That is how it works right now, and I have no intenion of getting into the discussion about how it should work.

K

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 11:57
i'll be more specifc, and i wasn't asking you to explain how it SHOULD work, but rather, how it does work.


Yap, that was a big surprise for me too. There are threee discrete states here, COMP=0, COMP=1 and no COMP at all.

<snip>

In more interesting example, Ray Charles plays with bunch of his friends. For some of them I care, for some not. So every friend is ARTIST on his own track, Ray Charles is ALBUMARTIST and the friends I care about get COMPILATION=0, others don't have that tag at all.

K

ok...

so, here is my question to you:

if the ray charles CD had Ray Charles as ALBUMARTIST for all tracks, and differing guest artists listed as ARTIST on the tracks, what happens when you for all the tracks:

1. set the comp tag to 1?
2. set the comp tag to 0?
3. don't set any comp tag at all?

also

4. what happens when you set comp tags as 1 or 0, or no comp tags at all, individually and differently per track?

specifically, i am curious about where and how the album gets sorted in home -> artwork (gallery) view -> artist, year, album

and also what settings you use for the 2 music library either/or compilation options.

thx.

erland
2008-05-06, 12:03
so i think we both understand that "Compilation=1" is the user telling SC7 that it must consider the album to be a compilation.

why then, would "Compilation=0" and having no comp tag at all, not be considered the same thing?

Compilation = 1 -> Compilation album
Compilation = 0 -> Not compilation album
Compilation = not defined -> Let SqueezeCenter decide

Isn't this how it works ?
If it does, it makes a lot of sense to me.

By the way, this discussion back and forth isn't really helping things, it just gets developers like myself even more confused and tired of the whole thing. So my suggestion is to trust the developers and let them solve the already registered problem report. If you don't trust that the developers make s the right choice, learn perl and provide a patch.

The tagging programs available make it really easy to add tags to multiple files so I can't really understand why this whole thing is such a big issue.

ModelCitizen
2008-05-06, 12:15
If you don't trust that the developers ake s the right choice, learn perl and provide a patch.

Can you recommend a good manual Erland?
;-|
If human friendly design depended solely upon developers/coders we'd all be sunk


The tagging programs available make it really easy to add tags to multiple files so I can't really understand why this whole thing is such a big issue.
1) It's an issue beacuse it doesn't work the way some want it
2) It's an issue because it's often hard to understand the way that SC handles it.

MC

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 12:36
Compilation = 1 -> Compilation album
Compilation = 0 -> Not compilation album
Compilation = not defined -> Let SqueezeCenter decide

Isn't this how it works ?
If it does, it makes a lot of sense to me.

yes, obviously, and i agree... but i was asking where it sorts the album based on those settings in his setup. read the whole post, its not long.

furthermore question 4 was asking where it sorts it if he does some tracks one way and other tracks another way.


By the way, this discussion back and forth isn't really helping things, it just gets developers like myself even more confused and tired of the whole thing.

erland, stop trying to silence me, as you did in developers forum. this is the GENERAL forum, and there is nothing wrong with a back and forth about a real issue.


So my suggestion is to trust the developers and let them solve the already registered problem report. If you don't trust that the developers make s the right choice, learn perl and provide a patch.

don't imply i don't trust the developers. and don't assume that my curiousity about these questions i posed to slimkid are rooted in bug 8001. they are actually much more related to my curiousity over the VA logic, which i think is broken.


The tagging programs available make it really easy to add tags to multiple files so I can't really understand why this whole thing is such a big issue.

then don't worry about it.

erland
2008-05-06, 12:57
erland, stop trying to silence me, as you did in developers forum. this is the GENERAL forum, and there is nothing wrong with a back and forth about a real issue.

Don't worry, you are free to post here as much as you like, I might have expressed myself badly. I'm just saying that you (together with the rest of the posters) have got at least one developer(me) more confused and tired of the whole thing, so all this arguing back and forth might have the opposite effect and I just like you all to be aware of it. Keep posting here in the general forum if you like to, I'm not going to cause any more disturbance after this post.



don't imply i don't trust the developers. and don't assume that my curiousity about these questions i posed to slimkid are rooted in bug 8001.
Sorry, my misstake, I thought you were talking about the same issue as 8001.

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 14:56
i wish no one would argue with me, but sometimes i am wrong, and sometimes those i argue with are wrong.

i don't see however from you a suggestion as to how to get to the heart of the matter without some back and forth dialogue on what people are seeing and experiencing and what they think it means?

i wish i could speak as moses and say 'here is the word, now go forth and do good works.' but the reality is the forums need to flesh out these things (and vet / challenge the assertions made) so that we can submit the best possible info to the bug reports.

trust me, i do not want to alienate you, but if you are confused as to what is being said, and since you obviously have a great commanding knowledge of the code, (your plugins speak to that), then why don't you ask for clarifications and shed some light on the issue so we can get the best proposed solutions?

erland
2008-05-06, 21:57
MrSinatra, I tried the files you've attached to bug 8001.

I'm using the latest svn/nightly release of 7.1 to verify this to make sure everything already changed in the code is part of the test.

With your files, I can confirm that I get the following sorting order in the Albums menu when sorting by "Artist,Year,Album":
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Various Artists

If I now in "SqueezeCenter Settings/Behaviour" change from "List albums by all artists for that album" to "List albums by band" I instead get:
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel

As you can see, the sorting is still incorrect, but it now displays Billy Joel instead of Various Artists on the Disc 3 album.

Now, I added a COMPILATION=0 tag to the Disc 3 files, an then I instead get:
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani

Now, I can even change the option in "SqueezeCenter Settings/Behaviour" back to "List albums by all artists for that album" and get the result:

I edited the tags with the Mp3Tag program and selected to write MP3v2.3 tags.
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel, Ray Charles
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani

As you can see the sorting is still correct but it now displays each individual artist for the Disc 3 album.

If "List albums by all artists for that album" is selected and the "Separator for Multiple Items in Tags" setting in "SqueezeCenter Settings/Behaviour" isn't set to "/" to match your artist separator character, album disc 3 will in the last step in the test procedure instead be displayed as:
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel/Ray Charles, Billy Joel

The sorting is still the same though.

Finally, I verified the same thing in the latest 7.0.1 release and got the exact same behaviour as in the latest 7.1 release.

Is the behaviour shown in the test above when a COMPILATION=0 tag exists how you would like it to work ?
Is this the behaviour you get in your own library for all albums which SqueezeCenter has considered as non compilation(non VA) albums ?

erland
2008-05-06, 22:26
Sorry if this post is a bit off topic...




If you don't trust that the developers ake s the right choice, learn perl and provide a patch.
Can you recommend a good manual Erland?
;-|

I started by looking at the code in some simple SqueezeCenter plugins about 2 years ago (hadn't read a line of perl before that)
Personally, I've only read "Perl Best Practices" by Damian Conway, which I can recommend but it's not really a good beginners book.
There are also a lot of resources on the Internet, so www.google.com is also a good starting point.



If human friendly design depended solely upon developers/coders we'd all be sunk
I definitely agree, the same can also be said if it depended solely on end users, the communication between developers and selected end users is the key. That's one reason why this forum is a very important place for the future of SqueezeCenter and the SqueezeBox products, fortunately Logitech is already aware of this.

But each individual end user also has to understand that he might not get exactly what he wants because there are other end users which have other conflicting interests. The communication between the Logitech developers is still A LOT better than than the communication I have with the Microsoft/Apple developers (which is basically zero). Getting feedback from end users is a good thing.

Just to make sure I don't get misunderstood again, nothing in this post refers to any specific person in this thread.

MrSinatra
2008-05-06, 22:31
Erland,

thank you for taking the time to do this and taking my "problem" seriously. i appreciate it.

i will answer your questions to the best of my ability.


MrSinatra, I tried the files you've attached to bug 8001.

I'm using the latest svn/nightly release of 7.1 to verify this to make sure everything already changed in the code is part of the test.

With your files, I can confirm that I get the following sorting order in the Albums menu when sorting by "Artist,Year,Album":
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Various Artists

If I now in "SqueezeCenter Settings/Behaviour" change from "List albums by all artists for that album" to "List albums by band" I instead get:
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel

As you can see, the sorting is still incorrect, but it now displays Billy Joel instead of Various Artists on the Disc 3 album.

so far, this is exactly my situation.


Now, I added a COMPILATION=0 tag to the Disc 3 files, an then I instead get:
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani

Now, I can even change the option in "SqueezeCenter Settings/Behaviour" back to "List albums by all artists for that album" and get the result:

I edited the tags with the Mp3Tag program and selected to write MP3v2.3 tags.
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 1 by Billy Joel
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel, Ray Charles
- Love Affair by Sophie Zelmani

As you can see the sorting is still correct but it now displays each individual artist for the Disc 3 album.

i assumed the above would be the case, but i don't use comp tags. not to belabor the point, i know i could. but i want to see a SC7 i can get anyone to use, and have it work expectedly.


If "List albums by all artists for that album" is selected and the "Separator for Multiple Items in Tags" setting in "SqueezeCenter Settings/Behaviour" isn't set to "/" to match your artist separator character, album disc 3 will in the last step in the test procedure instead be displayed as:
- The Complete Hits Collection 1973-1997: Limited Edition Disc 3 by Billy Joel/Ray Charles, Billy Joel

The sorting is still the same though.

i am sure you are correct on this as well.

i just want to point out that in my 25k tracks or so, i have no uniformity whatsoever in TPE1 'artist separator character.'


Finally, I verified the same thing in the latest 7.0.1 release and got the exact same behaviour as in the latest 7.1 release.

Is the behaviour shown in the test above when a COMPILATION=0 tag exists how you would like it to work ?

if i understand the question correctly, yes, i think so.

obviously, i want to be able to do it without comp tags, but the behavior is correct.


Is this the behaviour you get in your own library for all albums which SqueezeCenter has considered as non compilation(non VA) albums ?

yes, i am fairly sure it is.

would you like me to do some screenshots? i can do so of each permutation, but i might not be able to do it right away...

thanks again.

ps. phil meyer and i went around the block on this and came up with several suggested fixes:

1. have the scanner scan TPE2 into ALBUMARTIST only.
2. (if that didn't work, but it probably would) have it scan TPE2 into BOTH BAND and ALBUM ARTIST.
3. add an option to sort via the internal BAND field instead of the ALBUMARTIST field.

there's more, but you get the idea.