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zzap
2008-05-03, 18:18
I'm experiencing a lot of wireless network problems with the Duet Controller.

The controller drops the network connection, won't reconnect and becomes unresponsive for all menu-items that require data from the network.

The icon at the bottom of the screen is mostly white with all three bars lit - even with network problems going on - but it often turns blue aswell ("A blue icon indicates your Squeezebox Controller is connected to the network, but cannot find its music source.").

Pinging the receiver (with "-t" option for continuous pinging) always shows perfect results.
Pinging the controller shows a *lot* of timeouts.

I've tried two different wireless routers and currently the router is placed in the line-of-sight of both the receiver and controller.

However what I've noticed today is that if I turn off "Wireless Power Save" (WPS) under "Settings / Advanced / Factory Test / Power management" is that ping results improve tremendously and - with what little time I've had to test this - the controller all of a sudden works perfectly!

Here is a typical ping result with WPS turned on (default setting):
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=64
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=246ms TTL=64
Request timed out.

Typical ping result after turning WPS off:
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=3ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.33: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64

I would have expected a power save feature to go into effect after some idle time (eg. during "Screen Dimming" or "Screensaver") but this indicates that at least /this/ setting goes into effect right away - even while the controller is being used.

Another observation: if WPS is on (ie. bad pings) putting the controller into the cradle will instantly result into good pings.
Seems logical though since the controller now has full current.

I've tried a *lot* of things to remedy the network problems, so my current setup uses one of the latest nightly builds:

* SqueezeCenter-7.1-19366 installed on Vista
* SqueezeNetwork as primary music source
* Controller: 7.1 r2291 root@padbuild #50 Sat Apr 19 02:01:27 PD 2008
* Receiver: Firmware 23
* All-Wireless Network Configuration (although at one point I suspected a "Bridged Network Configuration" gone wrong, ie. Controller ==wireless==> Receiver, Receiver ==wireless==> Router, if that's at all possible but I could never figure out how / where I could see the actual configuration used)

If this keeps up for the next few days, I'll try to go back to the official version.

While I've been writing this I've had continuous ping running and it looks good compared to before: typical ping is 2-8 ms, a single 15-20 ms ping every 20 or so pings and a single timeout every 160 or so pings.

Also I've been using the controller and whereas before I would have experienced network issues it's been working perfectly.

The only thing I've noticed is that the battery indicator is now at 50%.
I can live with having to place the controller in the cradle when not in use (as a work-around) if this is a fixable issue.

If you're experiencing network problems with your Duet Controller try to disable the WPS aswell and let me know how it works out for you.

/John

jaffacake
2008-05-03, 18:28
John,

Thanks for the feedback. I posted about similar controller issues earlier today in the Beginners forum. I'll have a play with WPS and see if things improve a little.

Ultimately I'd expect an active device on a small uncongested LAN not to drop packets at all but I guess wifi factors in a few variables.

I'm using 7.0.0 here and will try to share my results if I get a significant change.

zzap
2008-05-03, 19:41
if I turn off "Wireless Power Save" (WPS) under "Settings / Advanced / Factory Test / Power management"

Having just downgraded to SqueezeCenter 7.0 (almost resulting in an endless "downgrade" / reboot loop) it seems that this version doesn't have the "Power management" menu item: it has Display, Infrared, Keypad, Motion Detector and Suspend Test Settings instead.

A quick check of 7.0.1 showed the same but I'm getting too sleepy to be methodical, so I'll investigate more later ;-)

zzap
2008-05-03, 21:00
A quick check of 7.0.1 showed the same but I'm getting too sleepy to be methodical, so I'll investigate more later ;-)

I've tried again with SqueezeCenter-7.0.1-19352.exe (who needs sleep anyway ;-)
The "Power management" menu item is there and I experience the same positive effect by turning WPS off as in SqueezeCenter-7.1-19366.exe (7.1 r2291).

SqueezeCenter-7.0.1-19352.exe gives me:
Controller: 7.0.1 r2409 root@padbuild #62 Fri May 2 01:23:30 PDT 2008
Receiver: Firmware 23

Milhouse
2008-07-24, 09:21
The problems you are seeing with PSM enabled are most likely due to your Access Point not implementing PSM properly, or at all.

Read how PSM works here (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/users/38954#38954) - the post is by the author of the WiFi firmware on the Nokia Internet Tablets, these implement PSM but have been known to have problems with buggy or poorly implemented access point firmware.

mikelee999
2008-07-25, 16:00
I have an open case with Logitech about this issue. In my case, after not using the SBC remote for a while (overnight, typically), it cannot connect to my Squeezecenter box. 2 things work reliably to correct this:

* disable the powersaving mode on the SBC--it almost never has a problem then.

* turn off/on the SBC remote.

I doubt my issues are about problems in the power save mode for my router because the SBC controller can be pinged and I can log on to it remotely from the Squeezecenter computer. It just doesn't connect to Squeezecenter even though it's on the network.

Turning off powersave mode is unacceptable as a workaround because the battery drains extremely quickly--it won't last more than a couple of hours off the cradle.

At this point, technical support is offering to replace the hardware, but they don't have a root cause--they're guessing too.

Milhouse
2008-07-25, 16:29
I have an open case with Logitech about this issue. In my case, after not using the SBC remote for a while (overnight, typically), it cannot connect to my Squeezecenter box. 2 things work reliably to correct this:

* disable the powersaving mode on the SBC--it almost never has a problem then.

* turn off/on the SBC remote.

I doubt my issues are about problems in the power save mode for my router because the SBC controller can be pinged and I can log on to it remotely from the Squeezecenter computer. It just doesn't connect to Squeezecenter even though it's on the network.

Turning off powersave mode is unacceptable as a workaround because the battery drains extremely quickly--it won't last more than a couple of hours off the cradle.

At this point, technical support is offering to replace the hardware, but they don't have a root cause--they're guessing too.

What make/model is your access point and what firmware level are you running on it? Is it the latest firmware, are you sure it has properly implemented PSM?

If disabling PSM on the Controller improves the ability of your Controller to connect to your Squeezecenter (ie. disabling PSM improves overall network connectivity) then it seems pretty obvious that PSM is the problem, and there's a good chance it's your router that has a stuffed up PSM implementation. Correctly implemented PSM (both on the client and the access point) should not noticeably impact network performance but it will significantly improve battery lifetime on the client.

There's always the possibility that Slim Devices have implemented PSM incorrectly, but since the introduction of PSM on Nokia hardware over 12 months ago it has always turned out to be a flaw in the access point for anyone that has experienced network problems, so much so that Nokia introduced the ability for the user to turn off PSM on the client - as well as using an intermediary setting - on the understanding that this is to the detriment of battery life. There's nothing Nokia or Slim Devices can do about cr@p access point firmware.

I genuinely think you're wasting your time replacing the Slim Devices hardware at this stage - if possible, try another access point. I agree that turning off PSM is an unacceptable solution, but there's nothing anyone here can do about faulty router firmware (assuming that it is the router, which I'd put money on). Only the manufacturer of your router can resolve this problem (or try after market firmware if it's available).

There's a Nokia bug on the PSM problem here (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1636) which references some access points with known PSM problems. Discussing this further really is futile unless people include details (make/model/firmware) of their access points. The Controller is now part of a wider and non-Logitech/Slim Devices "system", yet when battery life is poor in the Controller the focus is only on the Controller hardware leaving the likely culprit (the access point) to go undetected. PSM would never have been a requirement on the mains powered Squeezeboxen in the past, hence this is entirely likely to be a new issue for Slim Devices and something which may not have been seen during testing, depending on which routers they tested against... if you reference your router make/model/firmware here it's possible that Slim Devices may be able to buy it and confirm the problem, not that they will be able to offer a solution.

Woodstock
2008-07-25, 16:34
At this point, technical support is offering to replace the hardware, but they don't have a root cause--they're guessing too.

And they are going to replace all of the hardware they released thus far...ummmm...yar!!! Mayby they should look for some other answer!
Just my thoughts!

cparker
2008-07-26, 01:24
I've found the same problem on a Netgear N wireless router, the working Duet will sleep and then not connect again until power cycled, it gives the connecting screen but then never connects. This seems to have happened a lot more since upgrading to 7.1.

I have disabled the power mgmt settings and will see if it fixes it.

Thanks for the info

mvalera
2008-07-26, 13:12
Millhouse is correct, these problems are all caused by improper implementations of the PSM standard on your routers.

Mike

bonze
2008-07-26, 15:55
I've found the same problem on a Netgear N wireless router, the working Duet will sleep and then not connect again until power cycled, it gives the connecting screen but then never connects. This seems to have happened a lot more since upgrading to 7.1.

I have disabled the power mgmt settings and will see if it fixes it.

Thanks for the infoI have a Netgear N (DG834N) router and have no problems with the Controller connectivity when WPS is set.
This is with 7.1.r2699

Dropouts on the Receiver is another matter, but that is the furthest distance away from the router, hidden in a cupboard.

thesil
2008-07-27, 11:28
I am having the same problem, but I tried what you suggested with the power management and nothing changed. My white icon turns blue and then controller will freeze. I am right next to my linksys and nothing has happened. This is very frustrating, I have had the controller for about 3 weeks now, and there is a problem almost every day. It's great when it works, but it's getting to be a pain. I just might return it. Any other suggestions would help

mikelee999
2008-07-27, 23:24
I have a D-Link GamerLounge (DGL-4300) with v 1.7 firmware (latest).

Please note that the Duet controller does NOT lose connectivity to the network (it used to frequently wake up with an APIPA address; I solved that problem by falling back to WPA from WPA2).

It just doesn't connect to Squeezecenter. The machine Squeezecenter is running on can ping the controller and I can remotely log on. The controller retains its DHCP address. It reports State: Connected.

FWIW, I have recently disabled all but default Squeezecenter plugins. In the last 36 hours, I've had no connectivity issues. However, it's been the weekend, so the controller has been in use a lot. It seems to take several hours of inactivity before the problem occurs.

mikelee999
2008-07-27, 23:32
Millhouse is correct, these problems are all caused by improper implementations of the PSM standard on your routers.

Mike

If true, wouldn't it save you a lot of trouble to provide a test applet to validate the PSM implementation on various routers?

You're asking people to replace hardware without proving that it's the problem and without making recommendations for what will work.

Milhouse
2008-07-28, 07:32
If true, wouldn't it save you a lot of trouble to provide a test applet to validate the PSM implementation on various routers?

You're asking people to replace hardware without proving that it's the problem and without making recommendations for what will work.

You already have the facility to test if PSM is correctly implemented in your router: If your Controller experiences network connectivity/stability issues when PSM is enabled and yet you have solid network connectivity when PSM is disabled, then chances are your router has poorly implemented/defective PSM support... The best option might be to start a thread or wiki entry discussing known good and known bad routers with regard to PSM support.

My Controller has just arrived so in the next few days I'll be able to test it with my Linksys WRT54GS running Sveasoft Talisman 1.3 (or thereabouts) firmware... this setup works perfectly with my Nokia internet tablets which have "maximum" PSM enabled.

mikelee999
2008-07-29, 18:26
You already have the facility to test if PSM is correctly implemented in your router: If your Controller experiences network connectivity/stability issues when PSM is enabled and yet you have solid network connectivity when PSM is disabled, then chances are your router has poorly implemented/defective PSM support... The best option might be to start a thread or wiki entry discussing known good and known bad routers with regard to PSM support.

My Controller has just arrived so in the next few days I'll be able to test it with my Linksys WRT54GS running Sveasoft Talisman 1.3 (or thereabouts) firmware... this setup works perfectly with my Nokia internet tablets which have "maximum" PSM enabled.

My apologies if I have not been clear before: Regardless of whether power save is enabled or not on the controller, the controller IS REACHABLE ON THE NETWORK. It just doesn't connect to the Squeezecenter application.

I can ping the controller. It wakes up with a good DHCP address after being cradled overnight. I can remote logon to it from the computer running Squeezecenter. It shows connected and signal strength varies when I walk around the house with the controller. All while the wireless icon remains blue.

My experiment with disabling all plugins failed. Over the weekend, when someone or other was playing with the controller at least every several hours, it had no problem waking up and showing a white icon. But tonight, after it had been cradled for 18 hours, I'm blue again.

Just now, I tried turning off power save, tried to manually connect to a music source, putting in the IP address of the Squeezecenter server, no effect...until several minutes later. As I was typing this, I checked again, and the wireless icon is now white. But, the controller acts now like it usually acts when it can't even get a network IP address. I have the Settings/Extras/Choose Player options on the home page and nothing else. Then I turn the remote off/on, and everything is perfect again.

Milhouse, I appreciate your efforts to help. If the issue is PSM support in the router, do you expect that I should be able to ping and remotely log on to the controller at the same time that it can't find Squeezecenter on the network? If the controller can respond to a ping and handle a remote logon session, what other test would prove that it is otherwise network-crippled?

Can anyone comment on how the controller discovers Sqeezecenter when it wakes up? Is it possible that what it does changes after several hours (perhaps more than 12) of inactivity?

Milhouse
2008-07-29, 22:36
Milhouse, I appreciate your efforts to help. If the issue is PSM support in the router, do you expect that I should be able to ping and remotely log on to the controller at the same time that it can't find Squeezecenter on the network? If the controller can respond to a ping and handle a remote logon session, what other test would prove that it is otherwise network-crippled?


Sorry I can't offer much more advice - particularly as I'm having connection issues of my own (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50333)! - but if PSM is a factor in your problem you would expect to see a marked difference (improvement) when disabling PSM, if you see no difference then PSM isn't the likely culprit.

mikelee999
2008-08-01, 20:43
Over the weekend, I upgraded to 7.1. Didn't help this issue.

But I have an interesting story to tell...

I came home tonight to my usual sad blue wireless icon. A large playlist had been loaded over the weekend. As I scrolled around it, trying to kick the controller in the head to wake it up, I noticed that album art was appearing, slowly, as I scrolled through the playlist. Does the controller cache all playlist album art? If it does, why so slow? Hmmm...

I disconnected the Squeezecenter box from the network. No more album art appearing as I'm scrolling. Wait 5 minutes to be sure, then plug it back in--album art!

OK, that's it, network trace time.

Despite the controller icon being blue, there's no question the controller and Squeezecenter are talking back and forth well enough to transmit album art, if nothing else. I watched the controller broadcast to find the Squeezecenter, and saw the jpegs flying thereafter.

I've made the capture available to Logitech support.

All this blaming of routers is starting to sound pretty thin to me.

amcluesent
2008-08-02, 04:43
>All this blaming of routers is starting to sound pretty thin to me.<

It's a possibility. I had Belkin 802.11b model where the wi-fi throughput would collapse,but not go completely, when the broadband had been under load for a few hours. A reboot would sort the memory leak/whatever.

D-Link DIR-655 has been 100% running Duet.

Milhouse
2008-08-02, 05:03
>All this blaming of routers is starting to sound pretty thin to me.<

It's a possibility. I had Belkin 802.11b model where the wi-fi throughput would collapse,but not go completely, when the broadband had been under load for a few hours. A reboot would sort the memory leak/whatever.

D-Link DIR-655 has been 100% running Duet.

I had a non-connecting Controller, it wouldn't connect to my Linksys WRT54GS w/Sveasoft Talisman 1.3.1 firmware. I was advised to change the firmware, I installed Tomato on a second unused WRT54GS and swapped it in place of the Sveasoft unit. The Controller connection problems went away, unfortunately Tomato is unstable and has bugs (port forwarding isn't working) so it's not a solution. I'd be happy to work with Slim Devices to get to the bottom of the problem, but I'm not going to wait forever. My Controller has had to go back for RMA due to a non-functioning rewind button, but if anyone from Slim Devices wants to ask me questions which will determine what the problem is with the Sveasoft/Controller combination maybe it will fix the problem for others too.

Mnyb
2008-08-02, 06:38
Which version of Tomato ? i run 1.19 on an WGT54GL maybe its different with GS.
I don't seem to have any port forwarding problems.

I can portforward Azurues, SqueezeCenter and the ClarkConect dashboard ??

Is it a never version then i assume I should not uppgrade the router just now ?

Milhouse
2008-08-02, 07:00
Which version of Tomato ? i run 1.19 on an WGT54GL maybe its different with GS.
I don't seem to have any port forwarding problems.

I can portforward Azurues, SqueezeCenter and the ClarkConect dashboard ??

Is it a never version then i assume I should not uppgrade the router just now ?

1.2.1 on WRT54GS v2. I tried everything to get it to port forward TCP and UDP ports for eMule without success, even UPNP didn't work (I saw it open up the ports in the GUI but no data was ever forwarded). I've disconnected the Tomato box and replaced it with the Sveasoft box, ports are being forwarded correctly and my internet connectivity is now stable once again.

I don't know if it's a problem with the Controller, Slim Discovery or Sveasoft or all three - I'd like to help Slim Devices get to the bottom of it if they're interested.

G-dude
2008-08-04, 17:36
Millhouse is correct, these problems are all caused by improper implementations of the PSM standard on your routers.

Mike

Hey Mike i think I am having the same problem so it is good to know the cause...powering off and on my SB controller fixes it so it must be my router (Lynksys WRT54GS)...any clues how to fix the router..?

BTW my router seems to kind of clog up if i have been using bit torrent a lot...any connection..?

Milhouse
2008-08-04, 23:36
Hey Mike i think I am having the same problem so it is good to know the cause...powering off and on my SB controller fixes it so it must be my router (Lynksys WRT54GS)...any clues how to fix the router..?

BTW my router seems to kind of clog up if i have been using bit torrent a lot...any connection..?

G-dude & Mike - I take back my comments as the Linksys WRT54GS does NOT have a bad PSM implementation, the WRT works perfectly with Nokia tablets yet I'm having no luck getting a Controller to work reliably with a WRT54GS+Sveasoft firmware. The Controller did work with Tomato, but Tomato has other serious bugs which meant I could not use it long term.

Ultimately there are problems with Controller communicating with SqueezeCenter over some WiFi networks that are not due to PSM - throughout my testing with the Controller I could ping it reliably (zero packet loss over several hours) and maintain an SSH session without any problems. Yet SqueezeCenter would actively refuse connections to the Controller when running Sveasoft firmware - this doesn't seem to be a WiFi problem, unless some (but not all) requests are being corrupted during transmission?

markushk
2008-08-05, 05:44
Okay I just posted my frustrations in the other *long* thread on this issue.

I can confirm that turning off this power saving option prevents a lot of the dropouts (the ocassion packet is still dropped)
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Request timed out.
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64

My router is: Buffalo WHR-G54S running DD-WRT v24 (05/24/08) mini - build 9526

The Duet gets returned to the shop tomorrow unfortunately until this issue is resolved.

Markus

markushk
2008-08-05, 07:02
Okay I just posted my frustrations in the other *long* thread on this issue.

I can confirm that turning off this power saving option prevents a lot of the dropouts (the ocassion packet is still dropped)
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Request timed out.
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.104: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64

My router is: Buffalo WHR-G54S running DD-WRT v24 (05/24/08) mini - build 9526

The Duet gets returned to the shop tomorrow unfortunately until this issue is resolved.

Markus


Looks like I might have thrown my toys out of my cot too quickly... I just upgraded my firmare to: DD-WRT v24-sp1 (07/27/08) std - build 10011 and it looks to be more stable(only the very occasional lost packet now):

When screen is off:
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=25ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=107ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=58ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=64
Request timed out.
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=92ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=64

When controller is being used:
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=7ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=4ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.103: bytes=32 time=3ms TTL=64

Strangely I often drop packets when i browse sub-folders not matter if PMS is on or off. Just also noticed it drops a packet whenever it moves onto the next track(MP3 128kbs VBR 44.1khz).

Markus

PS: While I'm b'n about the Duet, I might add that the screen is no where near bright enough, so that the remote can be used outdoors.

G-dude
2008-08-05, 10:50
Have you guys tried forwarding the ports on your router..? They suggest it in another thread here:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50280&goto=newpost

Personally i think the Duet is awesome and even my wife and kids can use it without me acting as tech support...It is still a little "techy" mainly becasue all of us geeks are running different networks etc but really if yu just let it set itself up it works 99 times out of 100...I would not send it back...

Milhouse
2008-08-05, 11:44
Have you guys tried forwarding the ports on your router..? They suggest it in another thread here:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50280&goto=newpost


Interesting, but I'm assuming that opening ports only applies if you have a software firewall running on the server hosting SqueezeCenter? Opening or forwarding ports should not be necessary when using a router-based firewall when all the devices are within the LAN - obviously opening and forwarding ports is necessary for WAN-devices that need to communicate with LAN devices, but that's surely not the case here with the Controller and SqueezeCenter (at least I hope it's not! Maybe I wouldn't be surprised if it was...!) :)

Also, as I couldn't get port forwarding to work with Tomato firmware on WRT54GS, yet the Controller could establish a connection with SqueezeCenter when using Tomato I'm not entirely convinced it's a port forwarding issue. :)

G-dude
2008-08-08, 19:34
I use a Linksys router and someone on another who seems to know about these things says my Linksys WRT54 is okay.

What I have noticed is trouble when my Mac computer (OSX 10.5.4) goes to sleep my SBC controller loses site of my Squeezebox and can only access internet radio. I have to go wake up my Mac for the controller to find my Squeezebox.

My Ethernet on my Mac is set to "wake for ethernet administrator access" but the Squeezebox receiver/controller don't seem to wake it up.

Anyone have any ideas..?