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JJZolx
2008-04-07, 15:00
I'm not talking about SqueezeCenter's implementation. That's fine and it's taken a lot of work to get it to where it is today. I'm talking about what's "out there" and the consistency and reliability of the URLs.

A month or two ago I set up about 10 radio stations under Favorites. Some local radio stations, others not so local, with an emphasis on Jazz and on half decent, 64k to 128k, bitrates.

Today, demoing to a colleague just how easy it is to use Internet radio through SqueezCenter, exactly _two_ of the ten radio URLs still work. I honestly don't have the patience or the energy to track down URLs for even 10 radio stations every couple of months.

At least the Slacker stations still work...

SuperQ
2008-04-07, 17:49
Yup, people randomly change URLs on the internet. Would you like it if you had to notify the FCC every time you wanted a new URL, or to change a URL?

I guess it would make Google's life easier, they would just have to get an update feed from the FCC. ;-)

JJZolx
2008-04-07, 18:00
Yup, people randomly change URLs on the internet. Would you like it if you had to notify the FCC every time you wanted a new URL, or to change a URL?

No, just venting my frustration. Until the radio stations themselves realize that the URLs need to remain stable, then using so-called "Internet radio" will remain an exercise in futility.

SuperQ
2008-04-08, 17:16
This is why people invited feed readers.. they were tired of having to dig around to get pages that updated regularly.

This is why shoutcast got popular, they provide a central clearing house for searching for various stations, and standardized stream links.

funkstar
2008-04-09, 02:34
WikiRadio any use to you?

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?WikiRadio

toby10
2008-04-09, 03:22
...........This is why shoutcast got popular, they provide a central clearing house for searching for various stations, and standardized stream links.

Well, yes and no. :) If you save a ShoutCast feed to your favorites (SC7 or SN) it will eventually stop working. This can take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks, but they will be dead links. :(

Obviously this is not true if you are searching within ShoutCast itself, but that negates the entire purpose and ease of use with favorites.

toby10
2008-04-09, 03:30
WikiRadio any use to you?

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?WikiRadio

WR is a great resource, but it doesn't help the problem of stations changing their URL's. If someone posted an OPML list of stations 30 days ago and some of those stations have changed URL's you again have dead links.

The OPML poster could go back in and update the posted list, but that brings us back to JJZolx's original post, it's just too much time and hassle to keep up with endlessly changing stream URL's. :(

Espen
2008-04-09, 03:37
I guess in 50 years (hopefully much sooner), people are going look
back and laugh of the situation as it is today. I guess the main reason
why addresses change is that it does not affect the revenue of the broadcaster.
Had it done so, they would have been a lot more careful.

funkstar
2008-04-09, 05:08
WR is a great resource, but it doesn't help the problem of stations changing their URL's. If someone posted an OPML list of stations 30 days ago and some of those stations have changed URL's you again have dead links.

The OPML poster could go back in and update the posted list, but that brings us back to JJZolx's original post, it's just too much time and hassle to keep up with endlessly changing stream URL's. :(

Thats very true, but at some point in that 30 day period, someone else may have tried to tune to one of those feeds and then corrected them to the new URLs. It doesn't garantee that you won't get errors, but it does reduce the likelyhood. The more poeple that use the plugin, the more likely changes will be made to the resource soon after the radio statin changes them.

toby10
2008-04-09, 05:40
Thats very true, but at some point in that 30 day period, someone else may have tried to tune to one of those feeds and then corrected them to the new URLs. It doesn't garantee that you won't get errors, but it does reduce the likelyhood. The more poeple that use the plugin, the more likely changes will be made to the resource soon after the radio statin changes them.

Without a doubt! But as JJZolx and others are pointing out, if Internet Radio wants to be taken seriously they have to stop (or greatly reduce the incidents of) continually moving their URL's around.

Imagine if AM/FM broadcasters did this! All of your preset radio stations in your car would be worthless after a few months. Obviously they can not do this due to FCC licensing. But legal or not they would never keep changing their tune in freq's if they wanted to maintain a loyal following, this is just basic common sense from a business aspect.

For an industry that is barely staying afloat as it is, it seems downright silly for for them to make it difficult for their loyal listeners to find them easily and regularly. :(

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 05:53
my stations shoutcast links have been the same IP address since we originally set them up. (several years ago, 2003 maybe?)

they may eventually change once, but if they do, that should be the last change i can forsee.

i am also thinking about setting them up as sub-domains so that if you have a url like webcast1.thelion.fm it will work regardless of the IP, (as long as we update the IP for the sub domain when and if it changes)

does this sound like a good idea to you all?

radish
2008-04-09, 06:11
I think it's important to distinguish between stations here as well. Stations which only exist online generally understand how the internet works and understand that they need to make their content easily available to a wide range of software and devices. Take a look at someone like di.fm, nice easy mp3 streams with pretty static URLs. On the other hand you have conventional radio companies who have decided to have an internet stream and often they just don't get it. They assume (or prefer) that everyone gets their stream using the (IE only) embedded player in their website full of ads. They see the site as the money maker and the stream as the lure to get you there. They actually don't want you to listen from your SB3 or whatever, so they have no interest in making it easy for you. I look forward to their demise :)

toby10
2008-04-09, 11:21
my stations shoutcast links have been the same IP address since we originally set them up. (several years ago, 2003 maybe?)

they may eventually change once, but if they do, that should be the last change i can forsee.

i am also thinking about setting them up as sub-domains so that if you have a url like webcast1.thelion.fm it will work regardless of the IP, (as long as we update the IP for the sub domain when and if it changes)

does this sound like a good idea to you all?

Are your ShoutCast feeds that have not changed for years been saved by you in your favorites? Or do you mean you go to the ShoutCast SB Browse interface?

I have probably 20 ShoutCast stations saved to my SN favorites from last summer and not a single one still functions! They all work fine from the ShoutCast Browse section. AndyG (the SN guru :)) has acknowledged the ShoutCast saved to favorites issue. :(

andyg
2008-04-09, 11:43
What URL is saved in your favorites? A www.shoutcast.com URL with a station ID?

toby10
2008-04-09, 12:01
What URL is saved in your favorites? A www.shoutcast.com URL with a station ID?

Hiya Andy. I'll try to post a more updated list but here is from my post a while ago:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=40322

Since my previous post in here I have been trying to find the forum post where (I thought) you stated there was an issue of saving ShoutCast feeds to favorites for later playback. If this is incorrect then I will edit my post. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth and I apologize if my statement was inaccurate. But I would *swear* I thought you had said something about a "known issue" with saving ShoutCast feeds to favorites.

May well be my bad, my brain cells are not what they used to be. :)

andyg
2008-04-09, 12:12
IIRC the Shoutcast station IDs are not permanent and so if you save a favorite with one of those URLs it may point to a completely different station at a later date. Nothing we can do about that.

aubuti
2008-04-09, 12:13
They assume (or prefer) that everyone gets their stream using the (IE only) embedded player in their website full of ads. They see the site as the money maker and the stream as the lure to get you there. They actually don't want you to listen from your SB3 or whatever, so they have no interest in making it easy for you. I look forward to their demise :)
I admit I don't have any evidence to back it up, but I strongly suspect that this is the reason why many web broadcasters change URLs. They know enough not to change their domain name and the name of the site you go to to listen on their embedded player. They just change the URL of the stream.

toby10
2008-04-09, 12:32
What URL is saved in your favorites? A www.shoutcast.com URL with a station ID?

Here are a few more from my SN account, but I have more dead ShoutCast links if you want them :). Some of these links died with days, others took weeks, but all died eventually. For comparison I enclosed a single working ShoutCast link at the bottom of the list which was save (added to favorites) right around the same time as the non-working links???



http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=48430&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=3567&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=9501&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=408537&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=121849&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=558057&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=159841&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=744724&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=8339&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=244696&filename=playlist.pls

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=814141&filename=playlist.pls

The following link WORKS!

http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=4513&filename=playlist.pls

toby10
2008-04-09, 12:38
IIRC the Shoutcast station IDs are not permanent and so if you save a favorite with one of those URLs it may point to a completely different station at a later date. Nothing we can do about that.

That's what I was remembering from one of your previous posts. :)

Brain cells are better than I had thought. :)

This ShoutCast feed stopped in less than 4 days:

New Feed, replaced below feed within four days: http://86.39.158.40:8000
Old Feed, saved just 4 days ago: http://86.39.152.11:8000

andyg
2008-04-09, 12:42
Yeah, and the majority of stations on Shoutcast are probably short-lived anyway, so there is not really anything they can do to fix the problem on their end. Maybe they could do something like Live365 does and send you to an audio error like "This station is no longer broadcasting".

toby10
2008-04-09, 12:57
Yeah, and the majority of stations on Shoutcast are probably short-lived anyway, so there is not really anything they can do to fix the problem on their end. Maybe they could do something like Live365 does and send you to an audio error like "This station is no longer broadcasting".

Well we certainly can't fault ShoutCast if a URL is no longer streaming. But all of my ShoutCast streams saved to favorites are all still on ShoutCast, it's just ShoutCast "re-shuffling" the streams. :(

Maybe some plugin developer will come up with the Stream Checker idea from within SC7 to at least alert us to bad links. Kinda like what AM Dead Link does for IE for checking dead Favorites/Bookmarks. :) This doesn't solve the problem but would certainly make it more manageable. :)

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 20:59
Are your ShoutCast feeds that have not changed for years been saved by you in your favorites? Or do you mean you go to the ShoutCast SB Browse interface?

I have probably 20 ShoutCast stations saved to my SN favorites from last summer and not a single one still functions! They all work fine from the ShoutCast Browse section. AndyG (the SN guru :)) has acknowledged the ShoutCast saved to favorites issue. :(

i have no idea how shoutcast.com references my streams...

i saved my websites links of the URLS to my streams in SC7 and never had an issue.

shoutcast.com is not the way to go, get the url from the source.

toby10
2008-04-10, 03:56
i have no idea how shoutcast.com references my streams...

i saved my websites links of the URLS to my streams in SC7 and never had an issue.

shoutcast.com is not the way to go, get the url from the source.

Yeah, I do try going direct to the source, *if* it's available from the source! Many of the sources stream only through ShoutCast and when you get the URL after clicking on the station direct from the source website you get a ShoutCast URL. :(

If you have saved ShoutCast URL's to your Favorites (SS, SC7 or SN) most will eventually be dead links, it's just a matter of time. :) As Andy has said ShoutCast moves their streams around alot and there is nothing SC7 or SN can do about it. :(

I wouldn't even bother saving ShoutCast URL's as favorites and just use the browse function within SB3/ShoutCast as this would eliminate this entire issue. But browsing ShoutCast via SB is not very intuitive. Lot of duplicate feeds (same station, different bitrate stream), browser default is sorted by popularity, etc..and I'll bet these are more ShoutCast limitations interfacing with SB than SB imposed limitations.

Reading some old posts in here there used to be a ShoutCast plugin that (among other things) allowed the SB user to select different browsing defaults like sort by bitrate. This alone would solve the duplicate feed issue (my main gripe). But that plugin was way before the entirely different SC7 code.

The latest version of WINAMP with ShoutCast built in allows for bitrate filtering therefore eliminating 95% of duplicate feeds. Maybe someday an SC7 plugin with these features? Or maybe a plugin linking to WINAMP?? We can only hope. :)