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View Full Version : SC7 library logic tags wiki entry project needed!



MrSinatra
2008-04-05, 22:46
hi all,

we have seen a lot of posts lately about trying to figure out how and why SC7 does what it does depending on the files and tags and data it finds (or doesn't find) in our mp3s and other audio files.

what i am proposing and requesting help on, is a wiki page that lays out in a linear way what SC7 looks for, and what it does if it finds it, or doesn't find it. a step by step linear flowchart on wiki of its library logic.

Dean said this would be a great idea, but i am not wiki knowledgeable. can someone please help? start a page and then we can all start filling it in?

i think we should stick to "generic" tags first, meaning those you'd get inserted in a file using EAC and lame.exe without custom commands. it seems to me that user defined fields or itunes things like "compilation" tags should be charted afterwards. (in other words, figure out the simple first, then figure out special cases)

we need to chart id3v1.x, id3v2.x, and ape tags, as well as what SC7 does when no tags are found.

it could even lead to SC7 using certain dir/folder names to organize music, (if it doesn't already).

someone did something like this before, but not on as grand a scale, and they limited themselves to various artists:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?VariousArtistsLogic

i want to quote some reference sources that should be part of the wiki entry:

http://www.id3.org/

http://www.id3.org/d3v2.3.0

here is a program that shows you your tags data in hex form, although i am looking for one that shows you not just the data, but the name of the field in similar hex form:

http://www.dalepreston.com/Blog/2007/02/id3-raw-tag-viewer.html

as an aside, here is a place to get a program that shows you lame header info, (which is separate and distinct from id3 info):

http://phwip.wordpress.com/home/audio/

or

http://www.thelion.fm/mp3tools/LameTag/

in the next post i will post some forum links and some relevant bug reports.

MrSinatra
2008-04-05, 23:24
bugs:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6490

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7698

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6635

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6658

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5108

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4629

forum posts:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45810

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45457

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45280

this is an old one of mine, showing i've been dealing with this for quite some time:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38930

MrSinatra
2008-04-06, 00:09
i should note here the nature of my setup and the problem leading me to see the extreme need for this.

i use EAC and lame.exe to rip 256kbps mp3s. (all mp3s made with lame 3.96 or later). i have the lame dll also installed in EAC to give me the extra dialog screen, but afaik, i don't have EAC/lame setup to create any special tags. i do make both v1.1 and v2.3 id3 tags.

i have not been able to find a program that shows me the exact names of the fields in my tags, but i assume my tags use:

TPE1 for artist
TPE2 for albumartist or band

i do not think i have any user defined fields/tags, or any "compilation" tags.

i use winamp 5.53 (set to no guessing) to handle my tag editing.

in SC7, i have the settings->music library choices set to:

NO checkmarks checked in the first three checkboxes, so

Composer
Conductor
Band/Orchestra

are all UNCHECKED. as far as i can tell, these checkboxes are only for including in artist lists for searching.

after that, i have...

Group compilation albums together
and
List albums by band

...both selected.

here is my problem:

ANY album that has agreement on the albumartist field in winamp, but has varying folks in the artist field for the same album, gets treated as a various artists album in SC7.

so if ray charles is on one track with billy joel on one cd of the billy joel box set, that one cd gets put under various artists even though billy joel is the only person under albumartist.

in other words, the album is NOT being sorted properly.

so when i browse artwork, and i am in artist, year, album, that cd is missing from the B's and is under the V's.

interestingly, the "list albums by band" option, while having no effect on sorting, DOES DISPLAY the album as by billy joel, both under the B's and V's.

so this is the heart of my issue, but i think all of us would benefit from having a flowchart that would show expected behaviors.

smc2911
2008-04-06, 02:55
Having it clearly explained would certainly help clarify what should or should not happen as well as giving a better idea as to whether things that "don't work" are bugs or enhancement requests.

MrSinatra
2008-04-06, 12:13
exactly...

i was actually hoping the development team would internally have such a flowchart somewhere, but that doesn't seem to be the case. in so far as i can tell, its currently done ad hoc, and people seem to either use it as is, or figure out workarounds.

my feeling is that a wiki chart should be setup as the reference benchmark of how SC is supposed to work, and is expected to work. then, when cases arise for users where it does not do so, it will be easier to figure out if the problem is a bug, a needed enhancement, or an issue with the users data.

at the moment, it absolutely seems to me that SC7 has a bug in so far as organizing my music.

can someone please get a wiki page started and organized into the right place, and i and others i am sure will happily start trying to create a linear flowchart?

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 12:07
why is this thread getting no love from the company or the community? are my posts too long? surely the need for this is evident as the issues are systemic and abundant.

all i'm asking for is some help, i'm prepared to do a lot of work to test the logic and powers of SC7.

if the community balks, i absolutely think the company should pick it up.

radish
2008-04-08, 12:15
Well there's already this page:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?SlimServerSupportedTags

I'm sure it's out of date but it's a starting point.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 12:28
yes, and theres a various artists logic page as well, (also out of date).

but i am asking for a whole different thing... maybe i am not being clear?

what i am saying is we need flowcharts, and they would say essentially "given this" such and such would be a result.

so one flowchart would be "given a user DOES use itunes, and has the following tags," such and such would result.

a second flowchart would say "given a user does NOT use itunes, and has the following tags," such and such would result.

i understand this would be a lot of work, but it could be done incrementally. the problem is i have no exp with wiki, so i need some help, and obviously, i would need help writing and testing some of the wiki flowcharts once made.

clearly, there are problems here, and reference guides or benchmarks would go a long way to reducing the mysticism involved.

radish
2008-04-08, 13:30
I understand that. I just thought you wanted someone to create a page for you to put this content on... it seemed to me like the page I linked to would be a good location. Just add your charts to that page.

If you're looking for help actually creating the flow charts, well that's a different story. There's no way to do that in the wiki - you'll need to get hold of a charting package (e.g. visio) and just create some images with it.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 13:40
well, i don't think its appropriate to put charts of how SC7 handles tags on the same page with what tags SC7 actually uses.

i'm thinking that would be too broad for one page.

if you know how to do wiki, if you could create a page, and have it linked from the rest of the slim wiki in a proper place, i would be most grateful.

also, i wasn't thinking of doing pictures, but doing essentially written word flow charts of "if this, then this" given certains sets of given data.

basically, i was going to write up my circumstances to the best of my abiliy, and say given this, i expected this, but got this instead. i would then also encourage others to do the same given their criteria.

in my case, i would hope to explain exactly what i was feeding in to SC7, exactly what i was getting out, and then saying where the problems were, with the idea being that there is the reality of what i am getting vs the ideal one should reasonably expect from SC7.

radish
2008-04-08, 13:59
If you're going to do any kind of wiki editing you should read the how to page: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?KwikiFormattingRules

Creating a page is as simple as editing an existing one and creating a link by putting two or more words together LikeThis. Save that page and you'll have a link which points to the new page, which you can then edit at will.

As for the content, my initial understanding from your posts was you wanted to create a page describing how tags are interpreted and thus how to set the tags to get the desired effect. I do agree that would be valuable. However your last post makes it sound more like a discussion of how you think things should work (but maybe don't). I don't believe that kind of thing belongs on the wiki - the forum works for discussions of ideas, and the bug tracker is for discussions of implementation problems. The wiki should be reserved for factual and how-to information.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 14:05
As for the content, my initial understanding from your posts was you wanted to create a page describing how tags are interpreted and thus how to set the tags to get the desired effect. I do agree that would be valuable. However your last post makes it sound more like a discussion of how you think things should work (but maybe don't). I don't believe that kind of thing belongs on the wiki - the forum works for discussions of ideas, and the bug tracker is for discussions of implementation problems. The wiki should be reserved for factual and how-to information.

yes, those are excellent points.

here's the issue...

i don't work for slim, so i can't say in a wiki article how SC7 was supposed to do things, b/c i don't know what slim thinks it was supposed to do.

what i can do, is say this is what it does, and this is what i thought it should do. reality vs ideal.

i agree the wiki is not for discussion, but unless slim sets the standard, and they don't seem interested in doing this, i don't see how else to go about it?

aubuti
2008-04-08, 14:06
why is this thread getting no love from the company or the community? are my posts too long? surely the need for this is evident as the issues are systemic and abundant.

all i'm asking for is some help, i'm prepared to do a lot of work to test the logic and powers of SC7.

if the community balks, i absolutely think the company should pick it up.
Just a guess on my part, but I suspect it's a combination of several things, including
1) many users don't see the same need you do,
2) it appears that many of the issues you are most concerned with are mp3/id3 specific, and the forum is filled with flacheads,
3) while you've provided some links and some "terms of reference", you haven't started sketching out this flowchart.

I suspect #3 is especially important. Once you have something more concrete for people to grab onto (and correct, modify, extend, etc) I bet your chances will go up. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make its debut as a wiki. If you get the content right, wiki-fying it can come later. Right now it looks like a huge undertaking, and people are probably waiting for someone to take the first plunge.

Just a guess.

msherman
2008-04-08, 14:45
radish wrote:
> I understand that. I just thought you wanted someone to create a page
> for you to put this content on... it seemed to me like the page I
> linked to would be a good location. Just add your charts to that page.
>
>
> If you're looking for help actually creating the flow charts, well
> that's a different story. There's no way to do that in the wiki -
> you'll need to get hold of a charting package (e.g. visio) and just
> create some images with it.

I undertand they're moving to mediawiki; there are graphviz plugins
available for that platform.

http://www.wickle.com/wiki/index.php/Graphviz_extension

- Marc