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bullgod
2008-03-28, 14:24
The "list albums by band" option is just broken.
There is no way, a 20 track album with every track having the same "album artist" info and complication flag=no should appear under "various artists" just because there is a guest singer on one track.

JJZolx
2008-03-28, 17:49
Mp3 files?


The "list albums by band" option is just broken.

You could be right. There are reports of this being broken in several ways in the bug database.


There is no way, a 20 track album with every track having the same "album artist" info and complication flag=no should appear under "various artists" just because there is a guest singer on one track.

I have Flac albums where this scenario works out just fine and the album gets sorted in with the ALBUMARTIST.

If this is indeed an Mp3 album, one thing you can do is skip the broken BAND (id3v2 TPE2) tag and use a TXXX (user defined) frame with the name ALBUMARTIST and the value set to your artist. SqueezeCenter will see it and treat it exactly as it does with Flac files. If you use Mp3tag, these TXXX frames are easy to create - any unmapped frame name (such as ALBUMARTIST) will automatically be created as a TXXX.

smc2911
2008-03-28, 22:01
I find that this approach only works for me if I have at least one other album by the artist in question, otherwise the album artist does not appear in the artist list at all.

For example:

Album: Larry Levan Live at the Paradise Garage
Album Artist: Larry Levan
Compilation: 1

and then each track has a different artist. I have no other albums by Larry Levan.


Album: On the Floor at the Boutique
Album Artist: Fatboy Slim
Compilation: 1

and then each track has a different artist. I have a number of other artists by Fatboy Slim.

On the Floor appears under Fatboy Slim when I browse artists for Fatboy Slim. Larry Levan does not appear anywhere when I browse for artists.

I have settings to Group Compilation Albums together and Group Albums by Band (I recently switched to using the Albumartist tag rather than Band for these sorts of albums).

Any suggestions as to how to get Larry Levan (and other similar examples) to appear in my Artists list would be greatly appreciated!

JJZolx
2008-03-28, 22:09
Any suggestions as to how to get Larry Levan (and other similar examples) to appear in my Artists list would be greatly appreciated!

Try COMPILATION=0.

smc2911
2008-03-28, 22:42
Hmmmm. That worked, thanks! But, I thought there was a reason that I'd set Compilation=1, I just can't remember now what it was...

smc2911
2008-03-28, 22:46
Maybe when the new wiki is up and running, this page (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?VariousArtistsLogic) should be replaced with a definitive explanation of Various Artists, Album artists, compilation tags, etc. Volunteers anyone?

smc2911
2008-03-29, 23:07
Hmmmm. That worked, thanks! But, I thought there was a reason that I'd set Compilation=1, I just can't remember now what it was...Now I remember: although I want the album artist to be listed under artists, I don't want the individual track artists listed. So in the original Larry Levan example, I want Larry to be listed under artists but not, for example, Damon Harris who is the artist for one of the tracks on the album. Setting COMPILATION=1 seems to be the only way to stop Damon being listed, but then Larry isn't listed. COMPILATION=0 gets Larry listed, but then so is Damon. Is the any way around this, or is what I'm after impossible?

slimkid
2008-03-30, 16:56
Hi,

did some experimenting about this thing and this is what I can confirm. BAND and ALBUMARTIST tags are not treated equally. Once I converted my BAND to ALBUMARTIST, many things changed and started to make more sense:

My set up is:
- Group compilation albums together
- List albums by band


So this is how it behaves:

- sorting by albumartist within artists is now working OK.

- if the album is natural compilation (multiple authors and there is no albumartist and no COMPILATION tag), it is listed under 'various artists'

-if the album is natural compilation (multiple authors and there is albumartist and no COMPILATION tag), it is listed under albumartist.

- if there are no artist tags at all and there is an albumartist, then album is listed under albumartist

- if there is an unique artist for the album and albumartist, different than artist, album is listed under albumartist. Now, this is not logical, based on the fact that the check box is placed under 'compilations options' and this is not a compilation scenario.

- in order to force some artists in a compilation albums to be listed among artists, mark only those tracks with COMPILATION=0

Now, I'm happy that it finally works for me, but not happy because the documetation is wrong ( no mention of ALBUMARTIST; BAND is used all the time and http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?SlimServerSupportedTags and also guide to tagging) and I spent last year developing my own methodology and going to hoops just to make this work. So, thanks to nice and helpful forum member (thanks Snarly), I finally got the info about ALBUMARTIST tag. Over the weekend I had to convert 10 000 tracks - think of the time only to back that all up. Whoever is responsible for this - poor and sloppy job.

P.S. Don't get overly excited about my remark, that's the nature of things; as they say in air traffic control: "you land safely millions of planes, then you have one mid-air, and you never stop hearing about it."

K

smc2911
2008-03-30, 21:07
slimkid, thanks for your comments. After a couple of years of careful application of the COMPILATION tag, it sounds as though now my best approach will be to zap most of these (rather than setting them to 0). You mention that BAND and ALBUMARTIST are not treated equally. What is your understanding of the difference?

MelonMonkey
2008-03-31, 07:27
Take a look at this bug: http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5108

And look specifically at comment #16 which I just added today. That's how I'd suggest fixing this from a settings perspective.

I should have mentioned my testing has been exclusively with MP3 files and that the TPE2/ALBUM ARTIST has been set via iTunes.

The fact of the matter is that this USED to work properly using the hard to understand options with 6.x versions of SlimServer.

The only thing you needed to tag with a COMPILATION=1 was a real "Various Artists" album. Everything else should have COMPILATION=0 or unset, including albums by ALBUM ARTISTS with guests.

If you had both the original Various Artists option set as well as the group by Album Artist, then you would never have individual artists from either type of album listed in the album or artist browse lists.

smc2911
2008-03-31, 22:32
Thanks MelonMonkey--I'll vote for that bug.

gregklanderman
2008-04-01, 07:09
>>>>> smc <smc2911> writes:

> You mention that BAND and ALBUMARTIST are not treated equally. What is
> your understanding of the difference?

See also:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6490

greg

MrSinatra
2008-04-06, 00:28
all,

please see this thread, i think a flowchart is what we need:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45876

bullgod
2008-04-07, 13:09
... is this now fixed/done?

If I go to the Artist list do I see the "Album Artist" used, where appropriate as the sort key?

If so, can someone identify what version this fix made it into please, if not it there any expectation that it might eventually be taken up?

Thanks

MrSinatra
2008-04-07, 13:41
as far as i know it is not fixed, please see the bugs listed in this link:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45876

slimkid
2008-04-07, 18:27
In the meantime, I have found another 2 issues with this functionality. I think it is so broken that it has past the point where it makes sense to raise bugs. It needs serious shakedown. First somebody who really understands the complexity of tagging to develop a business case and set of clear requirements, and then somebody to go through the code and clean it up.

K

luga00
2008-04-08, 05:25
Man, this problem has been around for what seems like a generation now.

I'm not sure why SlimDevices persist in not having an Album Artist category in the Browse/Search menus.

Is there some technical reason why they don't just do this.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 12:03
In the meantime, I have found another 2 issues with this functionality. I think it is so broken that it has past the point where it makes sense to raise bugs. It needs serious shakedown. First somebody who really understands the complexity of tagging to develop a business case and set of clear requirements, and then somebody to go through the code and clean it up.

K

can you please document the problems you found? i think it is well worth it if only to save people like me from a lot of frustration.

imo, the first problem is in SC7 / itunes "integration." there should be no "integration" with any program b/c i think it leads to other issues like the ones we are seeing here. basically, SC7 should have certain reasonable generic assumptions about someones setup, and then act in predictable ways based on typical tag data (or whatever).

secondly, i think the main thing that needs to happen right now, is someone at slim needs to become the czar of all these related issues and hammer them out. they could start by taking the current option "list albums by band" and eliminating it, and replacing it with the following two options:

1. SORT albums via the TPE2 tag, aka the band tag, or in some software the albumartist tag.

2. when displaying albums in a list, use the TPE2 tag for the artists name.

(number 2 above is what the current "list albums by band" option does now, and is necessary in case people want to sort by band, but use TPE1 tags to identify the artists)

SLIM DEVICES, or the community, what say you?

Ben Sandee
2008-04-08, 12:15
>
>
> SLIM DEVICES, or the community, what say you?


Believe it or not, the current TPE2 tag functionality works how I want it to
right now. I'm sure there are other people who are satisfied and have
gotten the server to do what they want with the current implementation. Any
suggestions to scrap everything would disturb me because what I have is
working. I believe that this contradicts the asumption that it is 'so
broken' it's not worth filing bugs about.

Ben

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 12:22
thats a very short sighted view.

just b/c it works for you does not mean good enough.

all you have to do is see all the people complaining and all the bugs filed.

SC7 should act on GENERIC and REASONABLE assumptions, and be PREDICTABLE.

JJZolx
2008-04-08, 13:10
I just ran an experiment. The library is all Flac files, so this has nothing to do with TPE2/BAND options or problems. I took a Van Morrision album, Astral Weeks, and set the ALBUMARTIST to 'Cannonball Adderley'.

Was:

ARTIST=Van Morrison
ARTISTSORT=Morrison, Van

Now:

ARTIST=Van Morrison
ARTISTSORT=Morrison, Van
ALBUMARTIST=Cannonball Adderley

See the results below. I don't think you could possibly ask for anything better. The album sorts with the ALBUMARTIST. And displays the ALBUMARTIST when browsing. In short, it works perfectly.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 13:29
so jim, you are saying there is no problem?

you are wrong.

first of all, what program do you use to make and maintain tags?

secondly, you need to change the tpe1 tags, or "artist" tags to say different artists and see if it still sorts by "album artists."

so change some tracks tags for artist from van morrison to beatles and billy joel and see what happens.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 13:31
and btw, i assume when you say "albumartist" it is either a tpe2 field or a txxx user defined field, right?

which is it?

radish
2008-04-08, 14:10
and btw, i assume when you say "albumartist" it is either a tpe2 field or a txxx user defined field, right?

which is it?

If you read his post he says it's FLAC, thus it's neither tpe2 nor txxx.

Ben Sandee
2008-04-08, 14:12
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 2:22 PM, MrSinatra <
MrSinatra.37kcbo1207682702 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> thats a very short sighted view.
>
> just b/c it works for you does not mean good enough.


You need to READ what people say if you want people to take you seriously.
I said I don't want what I have working to break -- I never said there
weren't any problems nor that I didn't want your problems addressed. What I
don't want is the wholesale discard of everything we have now because surely
it will break many things that are working.

Ben

JJZolx
2008-04-08, 14:12
and btw, i assume when you say "albumartist" it is either a tpe2 field or a txxx user defined field, right?

which is it?

Read the first line of my post again. This is with Flac files, so has nothing to do with any problems there might be with TPE2 interpretation in id3v2 tags. I'm just saying that ALBUMARTIST behavior appears to work as expected, so it's not a problem with the treatment of that contributor role.

I have a mirror Mp3 library that I'm scanning right now. We'll see how it works with Mp3/id2v2. I don't doubt that something there is broken.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 14:16
If you read his post he says it's FLAC, thus it's neither tpe2 nor txxx.

ok, well since i do nothing with flac and since mine are mp3 his post is of no relevance whatsoever to mine.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 14:18
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 2:22 PM, MrSinatra <
MrSinatra.37kcbo1207682702 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> thats a very short sighted view.
>
> just b/c it works for you does not mean good enough.


You need to READ what people say if you want people to take you seriously.
I said I don't want what I have working to break -- I never said there
weren't any problems nor that I didn't want your problems addressed. What I
don't want is the wholesale discard of everything we have now because surely
it will break many things that are working.

Ben

i did read it. its not a crime to not know anything about flac if you don't use it.

my posts QUITE CLEARLY have been about id3 and mp3, so why should he address his circumstances as being applicable to mine?

i am not advocating breaking what works for you, i am advocating FIXING whats BROKEN for me and many others.

it would be nice if YOU took THAT seriously.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 14:25
Read the first line of my post again. This is with Flac files, so has nothing to do with any problems there might be with TPE2 interpretation in id3v2 tags. I'm just saying that ALBUMARTIST behavior appears to work as expected, so it's not a problem with the treatment of that contributor role.

I have a mirror Mp3 library that I'm scanning right now. We'll see how it works with Mp3/id2v2. I don't doubt that something there is broken.

well, i guess i'm confused why you would address your flac situation to my mp3 situation.

i would be curious if u tried my experiment on your flac files anyway.

the thing is this...

TPE2 is by standard known as the band tag. officially it is not by standard known as the albumartist tag, but many programs treat it as such.

i am almost positive that all my mp3 tags use TPE1 for artist, and TPE2 for band or albumartist (or "album artist" if a space makes a difference)

assuming thats true, SC7 is not handling my stuff properly.

while winamp says album artist, i am again assuming its TPE2.

SC7 does show my albums as by the band tag, (which i set in winamp), but it does not sort by it.

radish
2008-04-08, 14:33
my posts QUITE CLEARLY have been about id3 and mp3, so why should he address his circumstances as being applicable to mine?

Because once the data hits SC it's all the same. Knowing that it works for one type of tag and not for another helps a lot in narrowing down the real issue.


i am not advocating breaking what works for you, i am advocating FIXING whats BROKEN for me and many others.

it would be nice if YOU took THAT seriously.
What I believe Ben was alluding to is the fact that you're asking for major changes to How Things Work Now(tm). In your eyes these changes are valid, and they very well may be (I'm not taking sides), but anyone who writes software knows that if you fix something for one person five others will complain that you broke it for them. Not just because they maybe liked the behaviour you consider broken, but also because any major change will, like it or not, have knock on effects which we haven't fully understood ahead of time.

I write all of this to try and explain why there needs to be a lot of discussion and back-and-forth before anything is actually done, and why sometimes what seem like minor changes aren't considered such by the devs. This isn't a reason not to change things which are broken, but it is a reason to think twice (or three times) before jumping.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 14:46
Because once the data hits SC it's all the same. Knowing that it works for one type of tag and not for another helps a lot in narrowing down the real issue.

ok, but understand that i don't know how flac works and that id3 (afaik) doesn't officially recognize tpe2 as an albumartist tag, so i took the gist of his post to mean that there was no problem. believe me, i appreciate his help or anyones, but i am in the dark in understanding HOW his observation helps, but i have no problem believing it when you say it does.

again, i'd be very curious to see what flac would do if he had multiple artists on one album (and if he removed his albumsort tags).


What I believe Ben was alluding to is the fact that you're asking for major changes to How Things Work Now(tm). In your eyes these changes are valid, and they very well may be (I'm not taking sides), but anyone who writes software knows that if you fix something for one person five others will complain that you broke it for them. Not just because they maybe liked the behaviour you consider broken, but also because any major change will, like it or not, have knock on effects which we haven't fully understood ahead of time.

i absolutely understand that, but just b/c Ben is happy with it doesn't mean i will be.

ultimately, it should work for everyone, and the idea that we should let it go b/c it works for some of us as is is not acceptable to me, and i would certainly not want it left as is if it worked for me but not others. (what can i say, i'm an altruist)

in other words, i can understand Ben or anyone being nervous about fixing problems, and i realize that even tho he replied to my post, he was talking about someone elses who was saying its not worth filing bugs, but what bothers me about his position is:

that IF it should turn out to be necessary to scrap everything to create a new system that will work properly for everyone, then so be it. meaning, that IF it needs scrapped to fix it for everyone, then what other course of action is there? leave it as is and forget those who have legit problems?

this device is not sold as "flac only."


I write all of this to try and explain why there needs to be a lot of discussion and back-and-forth before anything is actually done, and why sometimes what seem like minor changes aren't considered such by the devs. This isn't a reason not to change things which are broken, but it is a reason to think twice (or three times) before jumping.

absolutely in total agreement there.

personally, i think it is slims job to create a flowchart to show how things in a basic generic setup work regarding tags for mp3, or flac, since SC7 is their baby and since they write it. they know what the expectations are, they should document them. and that would make it easy for all of us to either identify whats wrong with our tags, or with SC7s handling of them.

snarlydwarf
2008-04-08, 15:32
i did read it. its not a crime to not know anything about flac if you don't use it.

No, it's not a crime...

Instead of arguing about semantics, why not talk on a common ground?

SC has a set of, for lack of a better name, Internal Tags. These are what it -really- processes. The tags are things like 'ARTIST' and 'ALBUMARTIST' and 'ALBUMSORTORDER' and such.

Now, it so happens that since Ogg/FLAC tags are freeform, they can be nicely meshed on top of those internal flags. But that isn't always the case: even with FLAC there is some conversion going on, because people and taggers are not as consistent and predictable as computers. Computers like consistency, and when people provide random stuff, it makes algorithms seem random....

For example, some people tag 'TRACKNUMBER' for the, well, track number on their FLACs. SC is nice and internally converts that to the Internal Tag of 'TRACKNUM'. It also converts, for convenience, MUSICBRAINZ_SORTNAME to the Internal Tag of 'ARTISTSORT'.

If you want to keep a common vocabulary, then those internal tags are what should be spoken of. By tradition, they are shown in ALLCAPS so that it is clear that it is the internal tag name being used. (Ie, tracks are numbered by TRACKNUM... even if the actual tag in the file is 'tracknumber' or 'track' (as in APE files).

TPE2 is converted to the Internal Tag named BAND. It is not converted to ALBUMARTIST.

Use the Internal Names for discussion: they define the real behavior of SC across file types.

The tag names (ie, TPE2, etc) simply converted (you can see the conversion in MP3.pm for example, it isn't very obscure code: there is one table called 'tagMapping' that shows how the TXXX tags are converted and further down is the somewhat bruteforce conversion of regular id3 tags, ie: $MP3::Info::v2_to_v1_names{'TPE2'} = 'BAND';)

(Okay, a slight simplification: a few mp3 tags like track number are actually in MP3::Info, but close enough.)

smc2911
2008-04-08, 17:00
I just ran an experiment. The library is all Flac files, so this has nothing to do with TPE2/BAND options or problems. I took a Van Morrision album, Astral Weeks, and set the ALBUMARTIST to 'Cannonball Adderley'.

Was:

ARTIST=Van Morrison
ARTISTSORT=Morrison, Van

Now:

ARTIST=Van Morrison
ARTISTSORT=Morrison, Van
ALBUMARTIST=Cannonball Adderley

See the results below. I don't think you could possibly ask for anything better. The album sorts with the ALBUMARTIST. And displays the ALBUMARTIST when browsing. In short, it works perfectly.
JJ in this case you already have a Cannonball Adderly album (Something Else). Could you try your experiment again with an artist not already in your collection (e.g Joe Bloggs, for argument's sake). In this case, I think you'll find no Joe Bloggs will appear in your collection.

smc2911
2008-04-08, 17:01
Actually, to get the effect I'm after, you'll also need COMPILATION=1 and Group compilations together and List albums by Band set...

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 20:58
No, it's not a crime...

Instead of arguing about semantics, why not talk on a common ground?

i find it a struggle to clearly explain this b/c while i KNOW and SEE my problem, the very "semantics" of the situation make it hard to explain.

tags themselves are in essence an expression of semantics.

your point is well taken, just please all be advised that i am not a "coder" and i am doing my best to explain what i see without being an expert, and with having little to no experience with FLAC or APE.

add to that my "non-expert" status regarding mp3s and id3 standards, and how it actually works and it really becomes hard.

but the thing is i know enough to know that there is a disconnect between my data, and what SC7 does with it, and i think its obvious i'm not alone in this.

there are literally 10 bugs i could cite here that deal in one way or another with this issue.

the thing i think needs to happen, is that SC7 needs at the very least the OPTION, for people like me (and i'm not unusual in my circumstances), to have SC7 call a TPE2 field BOTH "Band" and "ALBUMARTIST" 'internally' to use your lingo.

that would solve a lot of my problems right there, and we could then see what anomalies are left over.


SC has a set of, for lack of a better name, Internal Tags. These are what it -really- processes. The tags are things like 'ARTIST' and 'ALBUMARTIST' and 'ALBUMSORTORDER' and such.

ok. so my first problem would be that my TPE2 fields are NOT being called "ALBUMARTIST" by SC7 when it does its scans, right?


Now, it so happens that since Ogg/FLAC tags are freeform, they can be nicely meshed on top of those internal flags. But that isn't always the case: even with FLAC there is some conversion going on, because people and taggers are not as consistent and predictable as computers. Computers like consistency, and when people provide random stuff, it makes algorithms seem random....

For example, some people tag 'TRACKNUMBER' for the, well, track number on their FLACs. SC is nice and internally converts that to the Internal Tag of 'TRACKNUM'. It also converts, for convenience, MUSICBRAINZ_SORTNAME to the Internal Tag of 'ARTISTSORT'.

ok, and thats all great to know and i understand why you are explaining it here, but strictly speaking it doesn't apply to my issues, as my issues are with how SC7 is taking the data from my mp3 tags, how it classifies it, and then how it uses it.

you agree with that right?


If you want to keep a common vocabulary, then those internal tags are what should be spoken of. By tradition, they are shown in ALLCAPS so that it is clear that it is the internal tag name being used. (Ie, tracks are numbered by TRACKNUM... even if the actual tag in the file is 'tracknumber' or 'track' (as in APE files).

this is all very good to know, but i think its also impossible to know without someone directly telling you, (as you are doing with me now) or without someone like me just luckily coming across such info.

in other words, what you are saying to me is helpful and greatly appreciated, but its should not be expected that i know this... and certainly not expected that most people know it. i have some 600 posts and did not know this.

the problem is that if i know that 'band' and 'album artist' are defacto interchangeable in most programs, and are defacto considered TPE2 in most programs, then i am not likely to guess SC7 would be different or treat them as one but not the other.


TPE2 is converted to the Internal Tag named BAND. It is not converted to ALBUMARTIST.

therein lies my most obvious and contentious problem. one that would seem to affect any and all mp3 users.


Use the Internal Names for discussion: they define the real behavior of SC across file types.

i will do so from now on.


The tag names (ie, TPE2, etc) simply converted (you can see the conversion in MP3.pm for example, it isn't very obscure code: there is one table called 'tagMapping' that shows how the TXXX tags are converted and further down is the somewhat bruteforce conversion of regular id3 tags, ie: $MP3::Info::v2_to_v1_names{'TPE2'} = 'BAND';)

(Okay, a slight simplification: a few mp3 tags like track number are actually in MP3::Info, but close enough.)

very cool, but even if i could do anything for myself personally with this info, (beyond relaying it in a bug report), it doesn't help all the other mp3 users who use the TPE2 tag.

based on this post, it seems to me that no one disagrees that SC7 in fact is not handling mp3 tags correctly, and needs fixed to do so.

and thats all i am pushing for here. thx by the way for taking the time to break it down such that confusion of all parties, especially mine, could be alleviated.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 21:13
i should also add to that...

follow me here for a second...

we established that TPE2 is NOT being classified as ALBUMARTIST by SC7. i think thats a problem.

HOWEVER

you seem to be saying TPE2 is called "BAND" by SC7.

well, if it is, in that case, SC7 is NOT sorting by BAND either.

if TPE2 is "BAND" then it isn't sorting by BAND, its sorting by ALBUMARTIST which is value that (you contend and i agree) is blank for me in SC7s internal tags.

this is odd, b/c on the music library settings page, it says:

"List Albums by Band"

as one of the choices.

it goes on to say this in the info box:

"Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software."

...so this means one of two things:

1. that the option is NOT meant to sort your music at all, but rather just change the method (or data) it uses to show you who a given album is by

OR

2. that the option is meant to sort AND change the method (or data) it uses to show you who a given album is by.

***

personally, i think its supposed to be #2, but i'm not slim so i can't say. but if it is number 2, then the sorting part is broken for TPE2 users.

if on the other hand its #1, then just how am i supposed to get SC7 to sort my albums properly (given that they are properly tagged)?

JJZolx
2008-04-08, 21:58
Jeezus, you're tearing yourself up over this...

See snarlydwarf's explanation. Once an audio file or album full of audio file's is scanned and the metadata entered in the server's database, it doesn't matter what type of file it was - Mp3, Flac, Ape, Ogg, WMA, etc. They're all treated the same. The trick is to scan the files correctly, and, with tagging systems not as flexible as those used for Flac, Ogg, and Ape, interpret tags as closely as possible to SqueezeCenter's internal tagging model.

TPE2 is called "BAND" in a lot of applications. Some applications even call it "Album Artist". There's never been an option to sort by or group by BAND. There _is_ an option to treat BAND as ALBUMARTIST. My understanding is that this option is mostly to address how the TPE2 id3v2 frame is treated.

As far as I can tell, the only thing broken is the treatment of TPE2 during scanning. Addressed by this bug:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6490

The rest of it - sorting and grouping by ALBUMARTIST works pretty much as expected.

slimkid
2008-04-08, 21:59
i should also add to that...

follow me here for a second...

we established that TPE2 is NOT being classified as ALBUMARTIST by SC7. i think thats a problem.

HOWEVER

you seem to be saying TPE2 is called "BAND" by SC7.

well, if it is, in that case, SC7 is NOT sorting by BAND either.

if TPE2 is "BAND" then it isn't sorting by BAND, its sorting by ALBUMARTIST which is value that (you contend and i agree) is blank for me in SC7s internal tags.

this is odd, b/c on the music library settings page, it says:

"List Albums by Band"

as one of the choices.

it goes on to say this in the info box:

"Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software."

...so this means one of two things:

1. that the option is NOT meant to sort your music at all, but rather just change the method (or data) it uses to show you who a given album is by

OR

2. that the option is meant to sort AND change the method (or data) it uses to show you who a given album is by.

***

personally, i think its supposed to be #2, but i'm not slim so i can't say. but if it is number 2, then the sorting part is broken for TPE2 users.

if on the other hand its #1, then just how am i supposed to get SC7 to sort my albums properly (given that they are properly tagged)?

Sinatra,

I fully agree with you here, and no matter how hard somebody might try to justify or rationalize, this functionality is broken. I used to have BAND tag (on flac files), that didn't behave according to wiki/help docs. Then I converted them all to ALBUMARTIST and they behave differently, but still not fully rationally. So there is a first issue BAND is not the same as ALBUMARTIST, contrary to documentation.

Then, BAND is not properly sorted. ALBUMARTIST is, but ALBUMARTIST introduces silly notion of 'track artist'. That is ARTIST on the track that includes ALBUMARTIST becomes something called Track Artist. Track artist isn't recognized as ARTIST when it comes to matching other works. That means, for example that you can have Diana Krall as a guest (ARTIST) on the album where Ray Charles is ALBUMARTIST. If I'm listening to that track, and try to follow the artist (Diana Krall) I can't get anywhere, even though I have 6 other albums where Diana Krall is an ARTIST. I have to enforce COMPILATION to 0 in order to achieve that. ... a lot more on COMPILATION tag tp come.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 22:45
Jeezus, you're tearing yourself up over this...

you know jim, i don't understand the point of a comment like that.

all i am trying to do is get something fixed, something that has NEVER worked right for me since i got my first slim stuff 3 years ago or whatever it was.

on the one hand, people say "nothing should be done until something is FULLY disscussed verbosely so we all know everything about an issue" on the other hand, when i am verbose, i am either attacked or ignored or both.

as someone who i have witnessed needlessly attacked for just expressing their POV, it irks me you would do it to me.


See snarlydwarf's explanation. Once an audio file or album full of audio file's is scanned and the metadata entered in the server's database, it doesn't matter what type of file it was - Mp3, Flac, Ape, Ogg, WMA, etc.

i already understood that.


They're all treated the same. The trick is to scan the files correctly, and, with tagging systems not as flexible as those used for Flac, Ogg, and Ape, interpret tags as closely as possible to SqueezeCenter's internal tagging model.

i think SC7 should reflect the reality of peoples tags, not its own desire for what it thinks is logical.

in other words, SC7 should realize that there will be a lot of users like myself with all together normal tags in their mp3s that SC7 will need to properly deal with AS IS.

if someone has tag problems, thats different. people should clean up and maintain good tags if they want good results.

but in the case of someone like me who has well maintained tags and is using them properly, i expect SC7 to then do likewise.


TPE2 is called "BAND" in a lot of applications. Some applications even call it "Album Artist". There's never been an option to sort by or group by BAND.

lets be absolutely clear here:

settings -> music library -> list albums by band.

you are saying that option is NOT meant to sort your music?

are you saying that SC7 by default always sorts by its own internal ALBUMARTIST tag? that thats what it does and there is no other option?


There _is_ an option to treat BAND as ALBUMARTIST. My understanding is that this option is mostly to address how the TPE2 id3v2 frame is treated.

where is that option?

do you mean the first three checkboxes on the settings -> music library page? (it would be the third checkbox)

i would disagree that the point of those checkboxes is to fix this issue, but either way, checked or unchecked, i still have the issue. (and yes, i did clear and rescans both ways)

read the info box for that option. if it was to take my TPE2 tag and use it to fill in the internal SC7 ALBUMARTIST tag, i think it would say so.

here's what it says:

"Composer, Band and Orchestra in Artists
Song information about composers, bands and orchestras can be included in the artists list for browsing and search."

i don't see that as anything other than 'SC7 will make this info searchable.'

do you disagree?

i also don't see it as necessary since the TPE2 IS internally filling the SC7 BAND tag, and enabling the checkbox makes the scan take longer.

so if you are saying the checkbox makes it so that my TPE2 tags fill in SC7s internal ALBUMARTIST tags, well, it doesn't.


As far as I can tell, the only thing broken is the treatment of TPE2 during scanning. Addressed by this bug:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6490

The rest of it - sorting and grouping by ALBUMARTIST works pretty much as expected.

well, that "only thing" has screwed me for years, and my previous attempts to address it on the forums (and i have tried at different times) were shot down for a variety of reasons, but i did try... fact remains its screwed me for YEARS now.

MrSinatra
2008-04-08, 23:03
Sinatra,

I fully agree with you here, and no matter how hard somebody might try to justify or rationalize, this functionality is broken. I used to have BAND tag (on flac files), that didn't behave according to wiki/help docs. Then I converted them all to ALBUMARTIST and they behave differently, but still not fully rationally. So there is a first issue BAND is not the same as ALBUMARTIST, contrary to documentation.

Then, BAND is not properly sorted. ALBUMARTIST is, but ALBUMARTIST introduces silly notion of 'track artist'. That is ARTIST on the track that includes ALBUMARTIST becomes something called Track Artist. Track artist isn't recognized as ARTIST when it comes to matching other works. That means, for example that you can have Diana Krall as a guest (ARTIST) on the album where Ray Charles is ALBUMARTIST. If I'm listening to that track, and try to follow the artist (Diana Krall) I can't get anywhere, even though I have 6 other albums where Diana Krall is an ARTIST. I have to enforce COMPILATION to 0 in order to achieve that. ... a lot more on COMPILATION tag tp come.

wow.

that all sounds awful.

i can't speak to those issues, but i believe you.

i think you will have to explain however via the conventions snarly explained to me, that only when talking about SC7s internal tags should u capitalize the tag names.

i am interested to see you document via a bug entry each of your issues. i don't think a "compilation" tag should ever be necessary for anyone, or to put it another way, i haven't seen a case yet where its required b/c there is no other way to fix the issue.

i personally think its crazy that in all this time, slim has never treated TPE2 tags for mp3s properly.

i mean, why is it so hard to get this problem (of mine) acknowledged and fixed? it seems to me all that needs to happen is TPE2 needs to fill in both BAND and ALBUMARTIST for SC7s internal tags.

is there a reason this can't be done and hasn't been done since i got a SB in 04 or 05?

btw, here is a link of SC7s when i however over an album:

http://127.0.0.1:9000/browsedb.html?hierarchy=album,track&artwork=1&orderBy=contributor.namesort,album.year,album.titl esort&level=1&&album.id=1444&player=00%3A04%3A20%3A05%3Acf%3Acf

notice "order by" and then it says "contributor."

seems to me that means "List albums by Band" means SC7 should sort by that internal tag, and that internal tag is BAND, at least as far as what the displayed option says.

but for some reason it uses ALBUMARTIST instead, and for me, that value is blank b/c SC7 does not use TPE2 to fill it.

snarlydwarf
2008-04-08, 23:34
So there is a first issue BAND is not the same as ALBUMARTIST, contrary to documentation.

What says they are the same?



The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software.

...?

That says no such thing. It says two things (note the conjunction 'and' in the sentence).

1) The BAND tag is known on mp3's as TPE2.
2) Some software may call TPE2 "album artist"

Nowhere does it say: "I will treat TPE2 as ALBUMARTIST"

It -does- imply that when MrSinatra uses Winamp (aka "Some Software") and sets "Album Artist" there, he is, in fact, setting TPE2. Not ALBUMARTIST. Note the lack of spaces. Note the caps.

snarlydwarf
2008-04-08, 23:52
the problem is that if i know that 'band' and 'album artist' are defacto interchangeable in most programs, and are defacto considered TPE2 in most programs, then i am not likely to guess SC7 would be different or treat them as one but not the other.

"Most programs"?

I am not sure that is correct.

Those who use Picard, for example, get (usually) correct ALBUMARTIST. (It does tend to break down on Classical, where TPE2 would be Orchestra.) My usual ripper, abcde, doesn't set the tag at all. Nor does a typical usage of EAC.



therein lies my most obvious and contentious problem. one that would seem to affect any and all mp3 users.

I have mp3's. It doesn't affect me. Therefore "any and all mp3 users" is incorrect. Please do not overstate.



very cool, but even if i could do anything for myself personally with this info, (beyond relaying it in a bug report), it doesn't help all the other mp3 users who use the TPE2 tag.

It helps me. I use TPE2 sometimes, but not for ALBUMARTIST.

As for Winamp:

(current version changelog):
* Improved: [pmp_usb] Added AlbumArtist support to Naming Convention

v5.51 shows:
* Improved: [in_mp3] Support for reading ALBUM ARTIST field if TPE2 not present

Perhaps you should upgrade.

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 00:01
What says they are the same?



...?

That says no such thing. It says two things (note the conjunction 'and' in the sentence).

1) The BAND tag is known on mp3's as TPE2.
2) Some software may call TPE2 "album artist"

Nowhere does it say: "I will treat TPE2 as ALBUMARTIST"

It -does- imply that when MrSinatra uses Winamp (aka "Some Software") and sets "Album Artist" there, he is, in fact, setting TPE2. Not ALBUMARTIST. Note the lack of spaces. Note the caps.

wait a minute snarly...

the option in SC7 that says "List albums by Band" has this in the infobox:

"Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software."

now, lets be real here, when slim/logitech markets this thing to the public and uses that documentation above, they aren't expecting the public to read that and know anything, ANYTHING, about SC7s internal tags.

it also would imply that TPE2 tags are enough to get SC7 to use this option properly.

as i have pointed out, it only does HALF. it displays the album as by the TPE2 tag, but it does not SORT by the TPE2 tag.

and it seems to be because it does not use TPE2 to populate internal ALBUMARTIST tags, only internal BAND tags.

would you agree or disagree with that?

also, would you agree or disagree that it SHOULD sort mp3s by TPE2 tags if the mp3 has the tag, one way or another?

secondly...

the option is list by "Band" not list by "Album artist." and the infobox for that option goes on to define "Band" as the TPE2 tag.

so this option should really have NOTHING to do with an INTERNAL SC7 value of ALBUMARTIST anyway!

agree or disagree?

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 00:29
"Most programs"?

I am not sure that is correct.

Those who use Picard, for example, get (usually) correct ALBUMARTIST. (It does tend to break down on Classical, where TPE2 would be Orchestra.) My usual ripper, abcde, doesn't set the tag at all. Nor does a typical usage of EAC.

i admit, i've never heard of Picard. (that leads me to question its market share)

however, i know itunes and winamp and WMP and musicmatch and some others all use TPE2 on mp3s as band or album artist interchangeably. i'd bet quite a few more do as well. the point is that whether they call it band or album artist, they are reading and editing the TPE2 field of a mp3.

as to what rippers do, i must admit that i don't know if EAC sets a TPE2 field for a mp3 (using lame 3.96 or later) or not. i typically have WMP open at the same time i rip to get the artwork and it is instructed to fill in any tags that are otherwise empty if it can, so maybe thats how i got my TPE2 fields, (or maybe not).

but i then fix any bad tags with winamp. and i don't see what it matters anyway. who cares how the fields get populated, the point is i have TPE2 fields, as do many others, and SC7 should use them properly.

do you disagree with that?


I have mp3's. It doesn't affect me. Therefore "any and all mp3 users" is incorrect. Please do not overstate.

gimmie a break. ok, so you have mp3s, but WHY doesn't it affect you?

is it because you simply don't care? or are you saying the problem doesn't exist? or are you saying you have found a workaround for it?

my point imo remains valid. if the issue exists, and i believe it does, it AFFECTS ALL MP3 users, whather they know it or not, whether they care or not. u don't have to be aware of it or care about it, to be part of an affected population.

now if you are saying the problem doesn't exist, that would be something else. but from what i can tell it does exist and i don't think thats what you mean.

(and if you found a workaround, it affected you to have to do that, didn't it?)


It helps me. I use TPE2 sometimes, but not for ALBUMARTIST.

well that goes without saying since SC7 or ANY version of SS i have ever used (3-4years worth), has ever sorted by my TPE2 tags, by making them ALBUMARTIST tags.

so anyway, basically b/c you found another unintended use of the TPE2 field since SC7 does not use it properly, you think thats a valid thing to enforce on others?

in other words, it shouldn't be fixed b/c of your convienence?

i'm just rying to understand your point, please explain it to me.


As for Winamp:

(current version changelog):
* Improved: [pmp_usb] Added AlbumArtist support to Naming Convention

v5.51 shows:
* Improved: [in_mp3] Support for reading ALBUM ARTIST field if TPE2 not present

Perhaps you should upgrade.

i always use the newest version of winamp and always have. (currently 5.53)

i admit i don't know what winamp means by those entries, but i fail to see what it means here, (since i am using the newest as is).

snarlydwarf
2008-04-09, 00:43
wait a minute snarly...

the option in SC7 that says "List albums by Band" has this in the infobox:

"Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software."

No kidding?

Are you sure?

I mean, I just guessed and had -exactly- the same text in my post! What a coincidence!



now, lets be real here, when slim/logitech markets this thing to the public and uses that documentation above, they aren't expecting the public to read that and know anything, ANYTHING, about SC7s internal tags.

there is nothing in that sentence about internal tags. Nor is Coke's secret formula there. So what?



it also would imply that TPE2 tags are enough to get SC7 to use this option properly.

No.

It would imply that BAND is called 'Album Artist' by some software. That is what it says. It says "SOME SOFTWARE". It does NOT say its own name.

If I say, "some people pick their nose and eat the boogers" that does not mean that I do. It means some people do. It does not even imply that I do. If you say, "some people are idiots" are you calling yourself an idiot? I think not, I think you are quite capable of leaving yourself out of the 'some people' group and not believing that 'some' is 'all'. Certainly I say "some people are morons" all the time, yet do not think of myself as one...

Why is SC any different? Why when it says 'some' does it mean 'me'?

It could be slightly more clear if it said, "some other software," but the implication that it was talking about other software is the way I read it. It knows how it works, if it meant itself, it would have said it.



as i have pointed out, it only does HALF. it displays the album as by the TPE2 tag, but it does not SORT by the TPE2 tag.

Right, and this is behavior is very nice with classical works.



and it seems to be because it does not use TPE2 to populate internal ALBUMARTIST tags, only internal BAND tags.

would you agree or disagree with that?

Since I said exactly the same thing earlier today, yes, of course I agree with that. I even posted the code that shows TPE2 goes to BAND.



also, would you agree or disagree that it SHOULD sort mp3s by TPE2 tags if the mp3 has the tag, one way or another?

No, actually, looking at my music, I would not. I use TPE2 for Orchestra on classical.



the option is list by "Band" not list by "Album artist." and the infobox for that option goes on to define "Band" as the TPE2 tag.

so this option should really have NOTHING to do with an INTERNAL SC7 value of ALBUMARTIST anyway!

Really? Look at the subject of this thread. It does not say 'sort album by TPE2'. It does not say 'sort album by band'. It says by album artist.

It Does that.

As for what it has to do with ALBUMARTIST: I bet if you changed the source in Slim::Formats::MP3.pm to map TPE2 -> ALBUMARTIST you would have the behavior you wish.

Which is why it has everything to do with the ALBUMARTIST. You are trying to make BAND the same as ALBUMARTIST.

In honor of your name:

title: You And I
artist: Frank Sinatra
album: The Song Is You
track: 10/22
band: Tommy Dorsey

Is Tommy Dorsey the Album Artist?

Is the additional info of the band useful here?



agree or disagree?

With what? With the thread title? Sure, it should absolutely positively sort by ALBUMARTIST. It does.

It should not, as you claimed in the post I replied to, sort by BAND under all circumstances. That would not appease 'any and all mp3 users'.

snarlydwarf
2008-04-09, 01:05
gimmie a break. ok, so you have mp3s, but WHY doesn't it affect you?

Because, as I said last week: I use ALBUMARTIST for ALBUMARTIST. (Well, Musicbrainz tags which are converted)



is it because you simply don't care? or are you saying the problem doesn't exist? or are you saying you have found a workaround for it?


No workaround: I have never used TPE2 for ALBUMARTIST.

As I pointed out it works fine and dandy for me. But, then, I don't use TPE2 for ALBUMARTIST.



my point imo remains valid. if the issue exists, and i believe it does, it AFFECTS ALL MP3 users, whather they know it or not, whether they care or not. u don't have to be aware of it or care about it, to be part of an affected population.


No, it does not stand. It only stands for people who have used software that lies to them and tells them they are setting the 'album artist' tag when they are setting the BAND tag. Then they do not understand why the two are different.

It does not affect me any more than, "you can't put random crap in the TPE1 field! why not?" forces me to tag artists correctly.



now if you are saying the problem doesn't exist, that would be something else. but from what i can tell it does exist and i don't think thats what you mean.

(and if you found a workaround, it affected you to have to do that, didn't it?)


No, again, it is not a 'workaround'. The 'workaround' is "omg, id3v2 doesn't include an album artist tag, well, what the hell, let's shove it in TPE2 cause no one uses that!"



so anyway, basically b/c you found another unintended use of the TPE2 field since SC7 does not use it properly, you think thats a valid thing to enforce on others?


I give up. The INTENDED use of the TPE2 field, according to id3.org:
TPE2
The 'Band/Orchestra/Accompaniment' frame is used for additional
information about the performers in the recording.

It does NOT say, "oh, yeah, and you can toss the album artist in here, too"

Your definition of 'intended use' is actually, "other software uses it this way, so that must be what it was meant for". That goes counter to the meaning of the word 'intended'.

I did not "find another use"... Winamp did.



in other words, it shouldn't be fixed b/c of your convienence?

i'm just rying to understand your point, please explain it to me.


My point is that you twist words like "intended" around to mean not "what the intentions of the creator were", but "what other people have done with it". You ignore standards and other people following those standards and insist that they are 'workarounds' because you and your software do not follow those standards, so everyone else must be wrong.

I do not know if this is deliberate or not. I strongly suspect it is deliberate: the twisting of the word 'intended' pushed me over the edge on that.

Intended \In*tend"ed\, a.
1. Made tense; stretched out; extended; forcible; violent.
[Obs.] --Spenser.
[1913 Webster]

2. Purposed; designed; as, intended harm or help.
[1913 Webster]

For most of us, the first definition is, as marked, obsolete. But you seem to be using the word in that way. "Winamp intended the TPE2 field to be Album Artist"... They stretched it and forcibly shoved other data into a field they should not have.

Most of us would however agree that the most common use of 'intended' is the second choice: "The ID3v2.3 specification intended to use TPE2 as band/orchestra/accompaniment, implying a lesser role than the TPE1 field of primary artist, and not quite the same as TPE3 ("CONDUCTOR") or TPE4 ("remix/otherwise modified by").

It is not "finding another use" to actually follow the specifications.

"Holy cow, this table saw cuts wood! Who would have guessed if I followed the directions it would do that! I found a whole new use for this thing!"

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 02:44
why do you always become a smartass? why do you also become disingenuous?


No kidding?

Are you sure?

I mean, I just guessed and had -exactly- the same text in my post! What a coincidence!

smartass.


there is nothing in that sentence about internal tags. Nor is Coke's secret formula there. So what?

disingenuous. (and the coke line is smartass)

no duh there is nothing in it about internal tags to SC7, nor should there be! thats not the issue.

originally, (in post 41) you only quoted HALF the infobox line back to slimkid.

but you needed THE FULL LINE to get the point of the option.

you make it seem as if there is NO RELATION between the two lines in the same infobox!!! that its just some random statement of fact with no implications for SC7. PREPOSTUREOUS!

OBVIOIUSLY when the infobox says this:

"Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software."

the second line is explaining WHAT VALUE makes the FIRST line work!!!

maybe you drink too much pepsi if you deny that.

so the infobox is then referencing how that option should work with what?

well, with NORMAL TPE2 TAGS used in various programs! and it explains what various programs might use to denote the TPE2 field! is this not obvious?

so in post 41 you are saying "it doesn't say it will treat TPE2 tags as ALBUMARTIST" and yes, obviously the internal tag of ALBUMARTIST is NOT mentioned.

BUT IT DOES FORCEFULLY IMPLY that TPE2 tags WILL make the option work! how can you disagree with that?

seriously, do you disagree with that?

and if you agree the option is for sorting, not just displaying who an album is by, then you can't just summarily dismiss the problem.

now if you disagree, and believe the option should not be for sorting, fine.

however, that raises many issues.

the first is how is one supposed to sort by TPE2 tags then?

the second is how stupid is it to display albums as by TPE2 tags and have them sorted out of place? (displaying by TPE1 is not a viable option if you have a various artist album with lots of differing TPE1 artists)


No.

It would imply that BAND is called 'Album Artist' by some software. That is what it says. It says "SOME SOFTWARE". It does NOT say its own name.

this is insanity.

seriously, what else can one call it?

SC7 has an option for people to use. i have quoted many times now the infobox for that option in full.

for you to claim that whats in the infobox is not meant by SC7 to explain what is needed to make the option work properly is simply a denial of reality.

i'll quote it again in full:

"Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software."

thats the infobox for the "List albums by Band" option.

how can any sane person not see that as an explanation saying that the TPE2 field will make the option work correctly? WHY ELSE WOULD IT BE THERE?

honestly, your attempt to parse it falls flat when taken in the context in which the option and the infobox is given... for you to deny that is beyond ridiculous.


If I say, "some people pick their nose and eat the boogers" that does not mean that I do. It means some people do. It does not even imply that I do. If you say, "some people are idiots" are you calling yourself an idiot? I think not, I think you are quite capable of leaving yourself out of the 'some people' group and not believing that 'some' is 'all'. Certainly I say "some people are morons" all the time, yet do not think of myself as one...

Why is SC any different? Why when it says 'some' does it mean 'me'?

you need to step back and think this thru again, b/c you are way, way off base.

first of all, we agree that SC7 is not talking about its own internal tags in either the option, or the infobox. it is talking about the fields one will find in their mp3s, specifically the TPE2 field.

with me so far?

that being the case, it is merely explaining how the option works, and what other programs MAY call the TPE2 field, (presumably so one could go to those programs and make edits to get the desired results from SC7s option).

so, if your software says "band" or "album artist" that is the TPE2 field that this option is talking about and will use to do what this option does.

again, do you disagree with that?


It could be slightly more clear if it said, "some other software," but the implication that it was talking about other software is the way I read it. It knows how it works, if it meant itself, it would have said it.

pure lunacy.

the option and the infobox were only making reference to what a SC7 user would NEED TO KNOW to realize what the option utilized to work!

it then expects the user to apply this knowledge via other programs and then come back to using this functionality of SC7.


Right, and this is behavior is very nice with classical works.

great... so as i said in other posts, there should be a sort by option, and a display by option. then both of us could have it any way we wanted! imagine!

why fight me on this?


Since I said exactly the same thing earlier today, yes, of course I agree with that. I even posted the code that shows TPE2 goes to BAND.

great, so we agree on this anyway.


No, actually, looking at my music, I would not. I use TPE2 for Orchestra on classical.

ok, and thats fine.

so why not have two options?

one for displaying, one for sorting.

right now, people who would sort by TPE2 have no way to do it.


Really? Look at the subject of this thread. It does not say 'sort album by TPE2'. It does not say 'sort album by band'. It says by album artist.

It Does that.

disingenuous.

first of all, you are replying to me and what i am saying, not the OP.

secondly now you are using the terms loosely.

it [SC7] does not sort by "album artist" but by "ALBUMARTIST" as you went to great pains to teach me. (and i appreciate that) so when you say "it does that" it doesn't, does it?

thirdly, the OP obviously meant "album artist" in his other non-SC7 software. and that meant TPE2 (assuming he was talking mp3 files). so he was saying SC7 doesn't sort by his album artist tags, and obviously he is right. and why was he confused? b/c the List albums by Band option is misleading, poorly explained, and very possibly broken if indeed it is meant to sort.

keep in mind, he even had compilation = no in his tags. (i don't know if he actually had "no" or 0 or even if it matters, but he mentioned that).

so now, lets handle my point:

my point was that why should SC7 take the TPE2 tag and use it only for BAND?

why shouldn't SC7 just FILL THEM BOTH if TPE2 is the only tag available for those two internal fields?


As for what it has to do with ALBUMARTIST: I bet if you changed the source in Slim::Formats::MP3.pm to map TPE2 -> ALBUMARTIST you would have the behavior you wish.

maybe so, but first i am not a coder, secondly i update too often to do this.

and most importantly, this does not help everyone else in the same boat i am in.


Which is why it has everything to do with the ALBUMARTIST. You are trying to make BAND the same as ALBUMARTIST.

In honor of your name:

title: You And I
artist: Frank Sinatra
album: The Song Is You
track: 10/22
band: Tommy Dorsey

Is Tommy Dorsey the Album Artist?

Is the additional info of the band useful here?

great example, and of course it is useful.

and thats why i say there should be TWO OPTIONS.

one for choosing what to display an album by, and one for choosing what to sort by.

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 02:45
With what? With the thread title? Sure, it should absolutely positively sort by ALBUMARTIST. It does.

disingenuous and erroneous.

the thread title does not say ALBUMARTIST, it says Album Artist, (meaning TPE2 not internal SC7 tag, as it doesn't fit your naming convention and i am sure the OP was ignorant of it anyway). you keep doing that after schooling me, why?

second, try answering my question for real:

"the option is list by "Band" not list by "Album artist." and the infobox for that option goes on to define "Band" as the TPE2 tag.

so this option should really have NOTHING to do with an INTERNAL SC7 value of ALBUMARTIST anyway!

agree or disagree?"

that gets back to the points i made above in the last post, namely that SC7 and slim are taking the official TPE2/band tag but are NOT populating the internal BAND SC7 field with it.


It should not, as you claimed in the post I replied to, sort by BAND under all circumstances. That would not appease 'any and all mp3 users'.

ok, fair enough...

but surely then you would concede the opposite is also true, that if it shouldn't always sort by the TPE2 tag that it shouldn't always NOT sort by it either?

there are a lot of people who are similar to me in how i handle my tags, and i would argue, many more more like me than like you.

so shouldn't we have an option?

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 04:06
Because, as I said last week: I use ALBUMARTIST for ALBUMARTIST. (Well, Musicbrainz tags which are converted)

ok, and thats great for you.

but SC7 does not require people use MB to get SC7 to work for them. nor should it.

i don't want to use anything like that b/c i don't think i need it.

rather, i think SC7 is either not employing the option correctly, or needs to create a second option for TPE2 people similar to me, which are not in short supply.

thats why the thread is called by the OP "can we please have a sort by album artist option." note the space. note the no caps.


No workaround: I have never used TPE2 for ALBUMARTIST.

right, but you have used MB, and that is a workaround.

how else are people like me to populate ALBUMARTIST?

and btw, if you do that, and sort by that, what do you display by? in other words, do you list albums by band, or by the other choice in that option?

if by band, does that not create a conflict? meaning if your values aren't equal, doesn't it display one thing and sort somewhere else?

if you use the other option, don't you get lots of artists displayed for VA albums with lots of artist? don't you mind that? and do you want that album displayed multiple times? just curious.


As I pointed out it works fine and dandy for me. But, then, I don't use TPE2 for ALBUMARTIST.

obviously, you can't. no one can without changing the code.


No, it does not stand. It only stands for people who have used software that lies to them and tells them they are setting the 'album artist' tag when they are setting the BAND tag. Then they do not understand why the two are different.

did you mean to say BAND? [ie. the SC7 internal tag?] or band?

i agree that TPE2 is not officially album artist. but i also think it doesn't matter. first off, it does set the TPE2 tag regardless.

secondly, it is a defacto standard for the majority. you can argue that point, but that is the reality.

thirdly, it doesn't matter since the SC7 option makes it clear that band or album artist will affect TPE2 and therefore be good enough to work the SC7 option.

fourthly, TPE2 (via album artist in winamp) does in fact set the internal SC7 BAND tag, but does not set the internal SC7 ALBUMARTIST tag.

in any case...

the point does stand. if you are part of the mp3 population, you are affected by how SC7 handles TPE2 info, regardless of whether you know about it or not.

i would argue that how slim handled TPE2 info could explain why you use MB to set your tags.

i also would argue that if it handled them differently it could affect you, yes? thus why you don't want it to sort by TPE2 in all situations. so the opposite is also true, how it does NOT sort by TPE2 then must affect you.


It does not affect me any more than, "you can't put random crap in the TPE1 field! why not?" forces me to tag artists correctly.

you can see why it does from what i just wrote.


No, again, it is not a 'workaround'. The 'workaround' is "omg, id3v2 doesn't include an album artist tag, well, what the hell, let's shove it in TPE2 cause no one uses that!"

i agree that this is unfortunate, but this is a convention of many many programs and SC7 has to bend to such conventions.

its not a perfect world, and all i am asking for is an option to accommodate imperfection. its not like i am alone in this, many people are totally unaware that TPE2 should not be used in this way.

but without going to a workaround solution like MB, there is no option for casual users, and so TPE2 fits the bill. this happened WAY before i even got into digital music, so blame the populace. but it is what it is, and SC7 should deal with it as is, and not punish its users for what is beyond their control.


I give up. The INTENDED use of the TPE2 field, according to id3.org:
TPE2
The 'Band/Orchestra/Accompaniment' frame is used for additional
information about the performers in the recording.

It does NOT say, "oh, yeah, and you can toss the album artist in here, too"

Your definition of 'intended use' is actually, "other software uses it this way, so that must be what it was meant for". That goes counter to the meaning of the word 'intended'.

I did not "find another use"... Winamp did.

and i TOTALLY agree with you... but it is what it is, isn't it?

i mean kudos for using TPE2 as per the actual offical definition, i sincerely applaud that. and kudos again for using MB as a workaround to get ALBUMARTIST values. nicely done.

but slim is not you, they are selling a product to the masses, and this is the convention thats out there, however flawed and stupid, and i believe instead of trying to fight the tide, slim should accommodate via an option.

that option should be to sort via TPE2 if one chooses, and they can word it in whatever manner practical.

but right now, a lot of folks are screwed by how slim works, and i for one refuse to retag everything and add tags and all that jazz when all i need is for slim to acknowledge reality and deal with this properly. and i'm hardly alone in that view.


My point is that you twist words like "intended" around to mean not "what the intentions of the creator were", but "what other people have done with it". You ignore standards and other people following those standards and insist that they are 'workarounds' because you and your software do not follow those standards, so everyone else must be wrong.

not at all.

i am serious when i say i applaud your correct usage.

but you are in fact using a workaround to set ALBUMARTIST.

and all i am saying is that AN OPTION should exist for the VAST MAJORITY out there slim wants to sell a product to.


I do not know if this is deliberate or not. I strongly suspect it is deliberate: the twisting of the word 'intended' pushed me over the edge on that.

i think you neeed to relax, big time.

i was wrong to assume you were using the TPE2 field incorrectly. i apologize.

but get off your prosecutors chair, i meant nothing malacious, i merely want these issues resolved to EVERYONES contentment.


Intended \In*tend"ed\, a.
1. Made tense; stretched out; extended; forcible; violent.
[Obs.] --Spenser.
[1913 Webster]

2. Purposed; designed; as, intended harm or help.
[1913 Webster]

For most of us, the first definition is, as marked, obsolete. But you seem to be using the word in that way. "Winamp intended the TPE2 field to be Album Artist"... They stretched it and forcibly shoved other data into a field they should not have.

i don't know what you are talking about here, truly, and i don't think its relevant to anything.

i think winamp meant album artist to adjust th TPE2 tag, nothing more.


Most of us would however agree that the most common use of 'intended' is the second choice: "The ID3v2.3 specification intended to use TPE2 as band/orchestra/accompaniment, implying a lesser role than the TPE1 field of primary artist, and not quite the same as TPE3 ("CONDUCTOR") or TPE4 ("remix/otherwise modified by").

It is not "finding another use" to actually follow the specifications.

i totally agree.


"Holy cow, this table saw cuts wood! Who would have guessed if I followed the directions it would do that! I found a whole new use for this thing!"

unnecessary.

when all is said and done the following is still true:

1. most software (meaning that which makes up the majority of market share) uses band and album artist interchangeably for TPE2. this is in fact what SC7 itself says in the infobox.

2. the option in question is ambiguous in its intent. is it designed to not sort? if so, how are users to sort by TPE2 tags?

3. the option says "List" which to me sounds a lot more like SORT then "show the album as by..."

4. given the market share reality of how TPE2 is most often used, and given the infobox explanation, and given how the option sounds like what its meant to do, [ie. list sounds more like sort] then its bad when SC7 doesn't act in a way most would predict given those things.

5. its also dumb to have stuff display by TPE2 but not sort by it, (if they don't have extra workaround tags as you do, and most don't).

6. however, its simply not feasible to use the other option, meaning the one that ISN'T "list albums by band" as a workaround. that has worse consequences, so list albums by band is then the lesser of two evils.

7. if the option is meant to sort, not only obviously doesn't it, but it also then makes the error of saying Band when it means ALBUMARTIST.

snarlydwarf
2008-04-09, 08:25
why do you always become a smartass? why do you also become disingenuous?


For the same reason you play naive and paternal. Since I posted -exactly- the same text as you, when you post it and pretend it is new information that I obviously have not seen or comprehended, that is rude and paternal.

As far as disingenuous: there is nothing in my post that fits that:

adj : not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of
frankness; "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and
hypocritical operator, who...exemplified...the most
disagreeable traits of his time"- David Cannadine; "a
disingenuous excuse" [syn: {artful}] [ant: {ingenuous}]

I am always straightforward. I say exactly what I mean. If you do not like that, well, tough.



i mean kudos for using TPE2 as per the actual offical definition, i sincerely applaud that. and kudos again for using MB as a workaround to get ALBUMARTIST values. nicely done.

Musicbrainz is NOT a "workaround".

Please, please stop twisting other people's words.

You claim that I am "disingenous" yet you are the one that fits that by twisting the words of others.

Musicbrainz is used for consistency in tagging, the nifty MusicBrainz ID's, etc. I don't tag things with MusicBrainz to set albumartist, because for the vast majority of my music it does not matter if that is set... yet I still use it on single artist albums. If it was a 'workaround' I would only need to use it when I needed to 'fix' something.

I have better things to do with my life than argue with people who do not listen.

Disingenous?

Hahaha. Look in the mirror, "MrSinatra".

MrSinatra
2008-04-09, 20:01
For the same reason you play naive and paternal. Since I posted -exactly- the same text as you, when you post it and pretend it is new information that I obviously have not seen or comprehended, that is rude and paternal.

As far as disingenuous: there is nothing in my post that fits that:

adj : not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of
frankness; "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and
hypocritical operator, who...exemplified...the most
disagreeable traits of his time"- David Cannadine; "a
disingenuous excuse" [syn: {artful}] [ant: {ingenuous}]

I am always straightforward. I say exactly what I mean. If you do not like that, well, tough.

thats ridiculous.

you did not quote the whole line (and therefore not the same exact text, not in whole) and then you tried to make your piece into something it was not b/c you pulled it out of context.

who is playing dumb?


Musicbrainz is NOT a "workaround".

Please, please stop twisting other people's words.

of course it is, you need it or something like it to make SC7 work in a reasonable way with mp3 tags.

you can disagree with me calling it that, and we can disagree, but to try to make it out as me twisting your words is nonsense. its my assessment, nothing more. you don't agree, fine. but don't you try to twist it into something its not, namely me twisting your words. a silly complaint, as well as groundless.


You claim that I am "disingenous" yet you are the one that fits that by twisting the words of others.

which i didn't do. i see what you are doing by using MB as a workaround. you then take that assessment and act like i'm twisting your words.

i am not. its a ridiculous thing for you to say.


Musicbrainz is used for consistency in tagging, the nifty MusicBrainz ID's, etc. I don't tag things with MusicBrainz to set albumartist, because for the vast majority of my music it does not matter if that is set... yet I still use it on single artist albums. If it was a 'workaround' I would only need to use it when I needed to 'fix' something.

I have better things to do with my life than argue with people who do not listen.

Disingenous?

yep.

look, i don't care how you use it but clearly you have at least a FEW various artists CDs right? and maybe some single artist cds that happen to have a track or two of various differing artists on the TPE1 tag right?

so clearly you'd want them to sort to the right place, yes?

and i'd imagine MB does that nicely for you.

if you don't care, well, thats good for you, but not the rest of us.

MB is a workaround b/c someone in my position would need it to get SC7 to sort properly.

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This Section Expunged. Deleted. Removed. Hacked out. Gone to the bit bucket.
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mherger
2008-04-09, 23:19
MrSinatra - please calm down or we'll have to close this thread. Thanks.

JimC
2008-04-09, 23:37
I'm locking this thread due to the personal attacks. I'm also creating a NEW thread where the dialog can continue, but let's keep it civil.

-=> Jim