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View Full Version : Anyone noticed the Apple TV has no volume control?



willyhoops
2008-03-10, 09:30
Thank god for common sense :-)

radish
2008-03-10, 09:54
Please don't troll the forums, it's not constructive or helpful to anyone.

willyhoops
2008-03-10, 23:33
It's an important point. I have mentioned it lots of times but Logitech have still not got the point. The Yamaha CDRH1500 does not have it, apple tv does not have it, and it makes absolutely no sense at all anyway. I know Logitech love covering their keyboards with buttons no one ever uses but that is not cool anymore (if it ever was). But in thise case it's much much worse because most 99% of users are too dumb to understand that should not use the thing. What we really want on this thread is 50 people saying "yes logitech please remove the stupid volume control from the analogue out on squeezebox".

Logitech spend far too much much effort on the web interface. That's madness when there are glaring hardware faults- web interface is unimportant to must users. give us a decent dac in the squeezebox, or a cut down sensibly priced transporter, and most of all a hard drive for the music to be stored on plus built in power line so people don't tear hair out on wireless drops, or hard drives in all the units that sync like apple tv.

smc2911
2008-03-10, 23:53
What we really want on this tread is 50 people saying "yes logitech please remove the stupid volume control from the analogue out on squeezebox". I won't be one of the 50. Prior to getting a SBC I used a Harmony remote to control my SB3, amp, TV, etc and had the volume control on the Music activity set to control the volume of the amp rather than the SB3, so back then I might have had some sympathy with your perspective, although even then if I had the laptop in front of my it came in handy to be able to drop the volume without finding the remote (e.g. if the phone rang). Now, however, I rarely use the Harmony for music given the power of the SBC and so having the SBC able to control volume is a feature I wouldn't want to lose.

MrSinatra
2008-03-11, 00:23
why kill it? it is useful for some people. if u don't like it, set your prefs to fixed output. whats the big deal?

i wouldn't call u a troll however. just misguided.

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 01:05
Why kill it? Yes you can find a thread on here where you can hack a file and disable the volume control for good (not on gui: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39912&highlight=disable+volume+control). But 99% of the users are not going to do that and are going to find they have to play with the volume on thier amp and on thier squeezebox to try and get the level they want. and then they are going to switch the channel to the radio and blow their speakers etc. and they are going to use a volume button if you give it to them like silly smc2911. it's just a totally stupid idea - hifi equipment is desiged to certain specs and 100% output on your player is supposed to be 6 votls. if no one here gets it and no one at logitech gets it either i give up.

but before you think i am wrong....

LOGITECH ASK YOURSELF: why do apple not have a volume on the apple tv? do you think you are as smart as steve jobbs? i don't think so!!!! why does the denon ipod dock disable the ipod volume control and fix the level correctly? (what do most people buy instead of a squeezebox - an ipod dock of course) why does your cd player not have a volume control?

logitech you got to stop listening to the nutters on this forum who all want xyz. think about the average user and make his life simple. do you you really think that Grandma is going to telnet into her dodgy qnap and edit various text files in vi (notepad can't see the line ends) before she can leave her computer off at night???? You must be barking mad!!!!

You got to know that 99% of the world is retarted and has nothing interesting to tell you. Remember Segolene Royal's experiments in listening to the people? A joke. So when you read this look for people who have had problems using thier equipment and think how can we solve this. if they tell you they fancy having xyz don't take it too seriously. and be realistic - do you think an open source perl web gui is ever going to compete with iTunes/WMP? Got to laugh. Your interface is a joke junk it. All you need to do is focus on people using the equipment in their living room.

st2lemans
2008-03-11, 01:15
> why does your cd player not have a volume control?

Mine does, but only for the analog out.

Tom

kdf
2008-03-11, 01:17
On 11-Mar-08, at 1:05 AM, willyhoops wrote:

> Why kill it? Yes you can find a thread on here where you can hack a
> file
> and disable the volume control for good. But 99% of the user

:ove to see that stat backed up with data :)

Sorry, but I use it all the time. I guess that means you now need 99
other people who think it's utterly useless.

S'ok, I'll wait.
-kdf,complete and total nutter (that's why I'm still here)

egd
2008-03-11, 01:24
logitech you got to stop listening to the nutters on this forum who all want xyz. think about the average user and make his life simple. do you you really think that Grandma is going to telnet into her dodgy qnap and edit various text files in vi (notepad can't see the line ends) before she can leave her computer off at night???? You must be barking mad!!!!I'm sorry, but I don't see the problem...seems you're intelligent enough to figure that you can set the SB output to 100% and then use your preamp as your volume control, but not intelligent enough to trust yourself to leave the volume control on the remote alone afterward. In addition, not all of us have preamps in the signal path so we DO use the remote's volume control to adjust listening level. Personally I prefer freedom of choice over catering for the lowest common denominator. You want the lowest common denominator, perhaps an iPod dock is more your style...


Remember Segolene Royal's experiments in listening to the people? A joke. So when you read this look for people who have had problems using thier equipment and think how can we solve this. if they tell you they fancy having xyz don't take it too seriously.Amen to that!

Espen
2008-03-11, 01:25
why kill it? it is useful for some people. if u don't like it, set your prefs to fixed output. whats the big deal?

i wouldn't call u a troll however. just misguided.

I personally do not mind the volume controls on the box, but I do not use them. I set the volume to max and use the amplifer volume control instead. I do know a lot of people (parent generation) that get confused with what for me is a very simple interface. For them it makes no sense that the volume can be adjusted several places (but I do understand the usefulness if the device is hooked up to active speakers with no remote volume control capability).

Remote controls have generally for far too long been excluded from proper and simple design. I have not used the new Controller yet, but I am sure it is a big step in the right direction.

peter
2008-03-11, 01:30
willyhoops wrote:
> LOGITECH ASK YOURSELF: why do apple not have a volume on the apple tv?
> do you think you are as smart as steve jobbs? i don't think so!!!! why
> does the denon ipod dock disable the ipod volume control and fix the
> level correctly? (what do most people buy instead of a squeezebox - an
> ipod dock of course) why does your cd player not have a volume control?
>

You lack imagination. Without a volume control, how do I change the
volume on my powered speakers? Without an SB3 volume control, how do I
change the hidden T-Amp's volume in the bed room? By getting out of bed
and turning the wheel? If Logitech would leave out the volume controls I
would be very disappointed.

I hate the semi-religious way some people talk about 'apple'.

Regards,
Peter

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 01:31
Powered speakers... the downmarket things you plug into your computer which don't have a remote volume becuase you adjust it on the computer. i agree in this case the volume control is a very nice feature.

on the other hand the many more people (?) who have a hifi with line in are changing the volume when they shouldn't be.

however, if that market is very large i am wrong. i am really sorry, i didn't think about the computer speakers setup until now. i have never seen anyone do that in the uk- but maybe its more popular in the states.

what i would like for the hifi market is something without the volume control and a better dac without the expense of the transporter.

For the record i am not really an apple fan. but they do have good design and i hate ugly cheap stuff. i use a pc not an apple mac and don't like apple's underpowered guis. but apple tv is really sexy. the girlfriend has an 80gb ipod, i refuse to buy one becuase the sound quality is so bad, and therefore have no player since nothing else comes close. you got to hand it to the ipod, it is a giant amoung dwarfs.

egd
2008-03-11, 02:48
Powered speakers... the downmarket things you plug into your computer which don't have a remote volume becuase you adjust it on the computer....do you have any idea what you're ranting about?

smc2911
2008-03-11, 03:00
But 99% of the users are not going to do that and are going to find they have to play with the volume on thier amp and on thier squeezebox to try and get the level they want. and then they are going to switch the channel to the radio and blow their speakers etc. and they are going to use a volume button if you give it to them like silly smc2911. it's just a totally stupid idea - hifi equipment is desiged to certain specs and 100% output on your player is supposed to be 6 votls. if no one here gets it and no one at logitech gets it either i give up.Feel free to think what I'm doing is silly, but I struggle to see why it should worry you that I do something you consider silly: you can do your own thing after all.

Robin Bowes
2008-03-11, 03:08
egd wrote:
> willyhoops;278251 Wrote:
>> Powered speakers... the downmarket things you plug into your computer
>> which don't have a remote volume becuase you adjust it on the computer.
>
> ROFLMAO...do you have any idea what you're ranting about?
>

Heh, that is quite clearly a rhetorical question, as the answer is
rather obvious!

R.

MuckleEck
2008-03-11, 03:11
Powered speakers... the downmarket things you plug into your computer which don't have a remote volume becuase you adjust it on the computer. i agree in this case the volume control is a very nice feature.

on the other hand the many more people (?) who have a hifi with line in are changing the volume when they shouldn't be.

however, if that market is very large i am wrong. i am really sorry, i didn't think about the computer speakers setup until now. i have never seen anyone do that in the uk- but maybe its more popular in the states.

I for one am glad there is a volume control all three of my SB3s are connected to either (a) Audioengine A2s which do have a volume control on the back but as they are up on high shelves in the kitchen prefer to use the remote for the SB3 (b) directly into a Linn power amp attached to Acoustat electrostatic panels, I don't think these are classed as "downmarket" but maybe I am wrong! And this is the way the TP will be when I get round to buying one.

And yes I do live in the UK!

smc2911
2008-03-11, 03:22
willyhoops: can you explain what the fundamental problem with volume control is, other than that it is "not cool anymore"? I have read elsewhere that it is advisable to have full volume on the digital out, but what's the problem for the analog out?

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 03:30
amazon.co.uk

squeezebox duet product description:

Product Description
Listen to the music you love in any room in your home.... Music everywhere Connect the Squeezebox Receiver to your stereo or powered speakers and create a musical oasis....


OK I am really wrong. Maybe this is the way most people use it- I didn't know that. So the stereo market is not so important.

This is why on the Sonos web site:

http://www.sonos.com/products/zoneplayers/zp80/features.htm

"Analog and digital audio output Enjoy your music anywhere by connecting to your home theater receiver or amplifier with analog, optical and coaxial digital audio outputs. We also provide fixed or variable audio output volume control."

But the Squeezebox does not bother, has only variable volume, and mostly sell to the power speaker market. And transporter users or those in the know can get around the problem by editing some config files. Only the variable volume on the digital out makes no sense since that is only used by pros.

-----

smc2911 if you are using powered speakers its fine. it's only an issue if you have the line out going to a stereo which then adjusts the signal to the voltage you want for your speakers acording to the way you have set the volume knob. then you know the problem right? intead of using all 16 bits for the resolution of the signal by adjusting the volume at the sb3 end you are reducing depth. so maybe instead of 16bit 44khz sound you only have 8bit 44Khz sound. which is obviously totally undesirable. hence sonos have a fixed output setting that works and advise tyou to enable that for stereo systems.

smc2911
2008-03-11, 03:40
OK I am really wrong. Maybe this is the way most people use it- I didn't know that. So the stereo market is not so important.Now you're swinging too far the other way: I certainly think that the stereo market is important. Personally I use my SB3 via the stereo (although I am considering powered speakers for the SBR). Maybe I am silly, but I still don't think you've explained why controlling volume on the SB is a problem.

mherger
2008-03-11, 03:43
> But the Squeezebox does not bother, has only variable volume, and

You can fix the digital out's volume.

--

Michael

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 03:45
yes if you use a stero and the volume control you are making a big mistake. in your case (maybe you are only a small part of the logitech market however) you have significantly reduced sound quality becuase logitech gave you a stupid setup and or did not explain it properly. do you understand it now? in your case, logitech have really screwed you!

now you can get round this problem, if you don't mind editing the linux config files, using the info i posted before. but if you use a pc beware- notepad does not even open the files! or just make sure the volume is at max and check it from time to time in case the wife changed it. i guess that is what most people do. (unless they changed the functionality of the latest version of slimserver).

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 04:04
ok maybe i am wrong on the exact details but smc2911 i will try and calculate just how bad the quality of your squeezebox playback has been the last few years.

using:

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html

To get a doubling of loudness, it is important to note that an increase of 10dB is necessary. And to reproduce that volume through our loudspeakers, note that we require ten times more power from the amplifier, which is voltage increase of 3.16 times.

If your stereo volume is set to a point where at squeezebox music keeps the party ticking... now if in normal listening it is say half as loud...

then i think you are going to drop from 16 bit resolution to one third of that. but anyone can correct me if they like... its not really my area.... probably the 16bit resolution is not linear either and so the impact is different?

on top of that you have the annoying fact that when you switch to radio the level is all wrong. also your wife might turn squeezebox volume right down and hifi right up- and then you turn to radio and bang.

Power speakers people taking analogue inputs don't care about all this becuase they don't care much about sound quality and they don't have multiple channel (eg radio & squeezbox). almost all of us have this kind of setup between our computer and speakers for example. if we did care we would not mess with the volume on the computer and would instead adjust on the powered speaker. logitech make this kind of product, they leave hifi stuff to others. so for the squeezebox maybe its no big deal to them. also the audio out of the squeezebox is pretty downmarket as well to be honest - worse than a $200 hifi cd player. (although they don't care, maybe not helful that i am writing about it here. still it is in the best interests to put pressure on them to change).

Anyway at least i now have one:

"LOGITECH PLEASE GET RID OF THE VOLUME BUTTON - YOU MESSED ME UP FOR YEARS AND I DIDN'T EVENT KNOW IT UNTIL NOW"

egd
2008-03-11, 04:19
LOGITECH PLEASE GET RID OF THE VOLUME BUTTON - YOU MESSED ME UP FOR YEARS AND I DIDN'T EVENT KNOW IT UNTIL NOW"clearly in your case ignorance is bliss and it seems you'd prefer it remains this way. we cannot help you if you don't want to be helped. your misconceptions have been extensively covered in numerous threads. do yourself a favour and take the time to read them.

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 04:24
egd, I don't think you work for Logitech do you? you also don't get it. so please leave the thread alone

Robin Bowes
2008-03-11, 04:25
willyhoops wrote:
> ok maybe i am wrong on the exact details

Heh, you can say that again, without the "maybe", and perhaps adding a
"completely".

> but smc2911 i will try and calculate just how bad the quality of your
> squeezebox playback has been the last few years.
>
> using:
>
> http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html
>
> To get a doubling of loudness, it is important to note that an
> increase of 10dB is necessary. And to reproduce that volume through
> our loudspeakers, note that we require ten times more power from the
> amplifier, which is voltage increase of 3.16 times.
>
> If your stereo volume is set to a point where at squeezebox music
> keeps the party ticking... now if in normal listening it is say half
> as loud...

I'm sorry, but what has that got to do with anything?

>
> then i think you are going to drop from 16 bit resolution to one
> third of that. but anyone can correct me if they like... its not
> really my area....

Actually, the Squeezebox uses 24-bit processing. So you can drop 8 bits
without losing any resolution.

> either way at least i now have one
>
> "LOGITECH PLEASE GET RID OF THE VOLUME BUTTON - YOU MESSED ME UP FOR
> YEARS AND I DIDN'T EVENT KNOW IT UNTIL NOW"

Oh dear oh dear.

You seem to be rather confused about this issue.

Let's put aside the fact that you can just set the Squeezebox to maximum
volume to get the same effect as a fixed output (really, you can, the
volume control is done digitally, the analogue out is fixed). Just how
exactly do you think Logitech has "messed you up for years"?

R.

smc2911
2008-03-11, 04:33
I followed the link, but I don't see how it applies to the SB volume control. If I use analog out and use the squeezebox remote to turn the volume down, how is that different to using the volume on the amp? Since it's in the analog stage, talking about bits being lost wouldn't seem to apply. Maybe someone with more technical knowledge needs to step in to clarify the matter.

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 04:34
deleted this did not makes sense :-o

smc2911
2008-03-11, 04:35
Posted before I saw Robin's reply: sounds like I was wrong about bits if the volume adjustment is done in the digital domain, but I still struggle to see the problem here.

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 04:38
yes the volume adjustment in done in the digital domain..


http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/906slim/

Listening first to the Squeezebox in full D/A mode, with its volume control bypassed—the volume control operates in the digital domain, thus loses resolution at settings much below its maximum

however, i made some mistakes in the poor quality of my explanation. if the adjustment was at the analogue level the impact is much less but still exists and is annoying

then the max level down the line in is still 3v but has 65,000 levels of depth... and the only downside is that the noise could be more of an issue.

egd
2008-03-11, 04:41
egd, I don't think you work for Logitech do you? you also don't get it. so please leave the thread aloneheh, you're right, I use lowly active speakers so clearly I have no idea what you or I are on about. :P

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 04:55
smc2911 i guess the 16 bit signal gets the volume level applied to it and then it get output directy in one place, and then upscaled and output as analogue in the other place.

but it would be possible to build a computer soundcard that applied the final volume adjustmet in the analogue domain after all the signal processing and mixing etc... and then if you put that into your powered speakers the quality would be fine for most sensible volume settings. at 100% volume you would get 65,000 levels between 0 and 6v. At 50% volume you might get 65,000 levels in maybe 0-2v. you would swich to 100% volume for the levels to match your other hifi equipment but turning volume down in one place and up in another does not matter so much. i am not sure how creative labs sound cards etc cards work.

although this sounds sensible, when i think about it if i turn the volume to max on my powered computer speakers i hear hiss. like the resolution has gone down hill on this flat input....

i am sorry i made a meal of this tread... we need an expert...

Robin Bowes
2008-03-11, 04:58
willyhoops wrote:
> gee you are not reading it... not me they messed up.

Er, I am reading it. I'm obviously not understanding you very well.

> are you understanding what i am saying... if 6v is the max level that
> when it comes out of his hifi makes a party kick...
>
> then one third of that will be the level for normal listening...
>
> imagine the line in had an analogue to digital convertor on it...
> then one third of the resolution would be lost.

CD audio is (generally) 16-bit. The Squeezebox uses 24-bit processing.
This is means that the volume can be reduced by a whole 8 bits without
losing any resolution.

Here's an example using 4-bits / 8 bits:

Original 4-bit audio: 1111
Processed as 8-bit audio: 11110000
Half the volume : 01111000
Half the volume : 00111100
Half the volume : 00011110
Half the volume : 00001111

Notice, we've now reduced the volume significantly and have still not
lost any resolution.

> ok it does not have a a a/d... instead it uses analouge gain... but
> the noise and resolution must come into it...

No, it uses digital gain. The analogue gain is fixed (for best S/N ratio).

I'll say it again - if you want fixed (maximum) output from the SB just
turn up the volume to full and forget about it. You are not losing anything.

Let's look at your example another way:

> are you understanding what i am saying... if 6v is the max level that
> when it comes out of his hifi makes a party kick...
>
> then one third of that will be the level for normal listening...
>
> imagine the line in had an analogue to digital convertor on it...
> then one third of the resolution would be lost.

So, imagine your SB output is set to maximum, and your amplifier volume
control is set to whatever level required to make a "party kick".

For normal listening (one third of that) simply turn the amplifier
volume down.

Easy.

R.

twylie
2008-03-11, 05:11
Anyone noticed the Apple TV has no volume control?

Yes, and it annoys my wife and I that we have to juggle two remotes with our AppleTV. We have chosen to use a Harmony remote from a company that understands how consumers use their streaming products.

bernt
2008-03-11, 05:14
if you are worried that you blow your speakers when changing from SB to another source.

http://www.tux.org/~peterw/slim/VolumeLock.html

It's easily found in the PlugIn page also.
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?PluginsAudio

I use the analog output and set the volume to 100% and lock it with the plugin.

No coding, no installation. Just drop it in the pluginfolder and restart.

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 05:37
thanks for that - i did not know about the plugin- that's very good

egd
2008-03-11, 05:37
i am sorry i made a meal of this tread... we need an expert...Point your browser to http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?ConnectToPowerAmp and if you still have questions afterward, feel free to ask, without shouting your mouth off.

ModelCitizen
2008-03-11, 06:03
This is an odd thread. How would I adjust the volume of my hifis if the Transporter/SB3 did not have a volume control?

Transporter > Bryston S4 > PMC OB1s
Controlled by controller

SB3 > AudioEngine 2s
Controlled by backlit remote and controller

I, and I imagine a lot of other people, would be stuffed without a volume control.

MC

st2lemans
2008-03-11, 06:05
> To get a doubling of loudness, it is important to note that an increase
> of 10dB is necessary. And to reproduce that volume through our
> loudspeakers, note that we require ten times more power from the
> amplifier, which is voltage increase of 3.16 times.
>
> If your stereo volume is set to a point where at squeezebox music keeps
> the party ticking... now if in normal listening it is say half as
> loud...
>
> then i think you are going to drop from 16 bit resolution to one third
> of that. but anyone can correct me if they like... its not really my
> area....
>

Apparently not.

Actually, 1bit=6.02 dB, so you are talking 1 2/3 bits, i.e. going from
16 to 14 1/3.

But only if the signal is digital.

In the analog domain, it's simply a matter of raising the noise floor,
i.e. no bits are lost.

Tom

radish
2008-03-11, 06:06
i wouldn't call u a troll however.

The issue wasn't with the message (I'm happy for people to have issues with how things are done) - it was with the way it was presented. A simple "Can anyone explain why the SB has a volume control?" or "I believe the volume control should be taken out, and here's why" could have promoted a useful discussion. The actual post, as I unfortunatly predicted, just caused a big flamefest.

willyhoops
2008-03-11, 07:45
st2lemans,

Ah that's interesting and makes sense. So reducing the loudness by half cuts 1.66 bits off the resolution. I knew there might be a problem with my calcualation- didn't know it's as big as that!

I see that now at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth

and from

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?ConnectToPowerAmp

"Reducing the volume on the Transporter or Squeezebox occurs in the digital domain before the DAC. If you have to keep the volume very low to "fix" the line level mismatch, you are losing dynamic range and SNR"

I am pretty sure the 24 bit comment earlier is a red herring because the 16bit level will be adjusted before it gets upscaled and messed around with in the 24 bit dac (16 bits dacs are rare these days).

Do creative labs sound cards etc work in this way as well? Pretty sure, yes. Although the latest 24bit ones will suffer much less.

I see for hifi "powered speakers" (as opposed to computer speakers) you can get special sound cards with balanced outputs (use an audio pro 1v line level instead of the normal home 0.1v line level) and analogue volume controls. there are also ways to disable the windows volume control settings.

I even found a cd player with a volume control on the net...

http://www.wadia.com/products/Product%20Archive/w850/w850fi.htm

Removing a traditional preamplifier from your system has undeniable sonic advantages. Indeed, one of the high-ends's fundimental tenets holds that the shorter and simpler the signal path, the purer the sound. But is this sonic advantage offset by the drawbacks of adjusting volume in the digital domain?

All digital volume controls perform mathematical calculation on the digital data representing the analog audio signal. Although complex in practice, it's easy to understand in principle. Reducing the volume in the digital domain is accomplished by multiplying each sample by a number less than one.

But there's a price to pay for this digital slight-of-hand. Every 6 dB of attenuation reduction in volume reducs the playback system's resolution by one bit. In other words, a 16-bit signal atenuated in the digital domain by 6 dB now has the resolution of a 15-bit signal. Lower the volume by 12 dB and you have the equivilent of a 14-bit source. Dynamic range is reduced, and the music signal gets closer to the digital noise floor. With fewer bits, low-level signals can become more coarse, particularly at high attenuation levels.

Wadia claims it has mitigated the disadvantages of digital domain volume control by starting out with a 21-bit signal [upscaled from the CD's 16 bits in the digital filter before the DAC]. Losing a little resolution from 21 bits is an acceptable situation, Wadia believes. Second, every Wadia product with digital domain volume control provides variable analog output level via switches inside the unit. Setting these switches gets the CD player's analog output level in the ballpark so that very little digital domain attenuation is required. Third, Wadia sontends that the slight degradation imposed by the digital volume control is vastly less than the effect of an analog preamplifier and a pair of interconnects.

As you read in the above review of the 850 CD player, Wadia appears to have minimized the problems of digital domain volume control while maximizing its benefits.

If your system has only one source [so you don't need a preamp] there's no question about the musical advantages of Wadia's approach. In addition, this simple approach eliminates the cost of a preamplifier and a pair of interconnects.

[Question: why not use an analogue volume control post the dac- it's very expensive to do this- that's what preamps do]

----

Bet that baby's a best seller :-)

MrSinatra
2008-03-11, 10:42
can u explain why you don't just use fixed outputs? u have that option to set. just set it, forget it, and be done with it.

better yet, why not just max the volume and never touch it again?

and if ur so concerned, why not use the digital output as well?

if someone has different sources going into a receiver, as i do, that u switch between frequently, then its nice being able to control the volume of the SOURCES and just leave the receiver at a fixed volume. its essentially a makeshift mixer.

just b/c its not what apple TV does, (and apple TV sux btw), doesn't mean its not useful. in fact, b/c i now know from you apple tv does NOT have this ability, i am now lees likely then i was to get one.

i just don't see the basis of your gripe.

m1abrams
2008-03-11, 10:55
can u explain why you don't just use fixed outputs? u have that option to set. just set it, forget it, and be done with it.



Exactly, the OP does know there is a very easy to set setting under player config (no hacking required) to have the volume fixed and no matter what you do with the remote it will not change. Nice thing is this is a per player setting so your SB connected to the line input on an amp can have fixed volume and the one connected to power speakers in the garage can have non-fixed volume.

It really is not a big deal. Also what Robin states about the volume being done after the 24bit conversion I am pretty sure is accurate. So you really are not loosing as much range as you think you are. But besides the point the SB does exactly what you want gives you the choice. This is something they have had for a very long time.

cliveb
2008-03-11, 11:00
Wadia claims it has mitigated the disadvantages of digital domain volume control by starting out with a 21-bit signal [upscaled from the CD's 16 bits in the digital filter before the DAC]. Losing a little resolution from 21 bits is an acceptable situation, Wadia believes.
Good for Wadia.

It appears that you are unaware that Slim Devices does the same thing. (Or rather, it upscales to 24 bits before the DAC. This provides for 18dB more "safe" attenuation than Wadia's 21 bits). Does that make you any happier?

Phil Leigh
2008-03-11, 11:13
This thread has exceeded its signal to noise ratio.

egd
2008-03-11, 12:07
This thread has exceeded its signal to noise ratio.Consider it an inefficient means of dispelling myths and (hopefully?) educating someone in dire need thereof.

Phil Leigh
2008-03-11, 12:09
Consider it an inefficient means of dispelling myths and (hopefully?) educating someone in dire need thereof.

OK. Maybe there should be a sticky explaining for those who are "hard of understanding" about 24-bit digital level control... so we don't have go through this again and again and again

egd
2008-03-11, 12:34
OK. Maybe there should be a sticky explaining for those who are "hard of understanding" about 24-bit digital level control... so we don't have go through this again and again and again

I agree. There are a few threads and wiki entries that everyone should read after having acquired a SB3, Receiver or Transporter. To aid in understanding, they should probably be read in a certain order too. Problem is identifying them now is not a trivial undertaking. Perhaps the simplest solution is to have a sticky that references a wiki entry that in turn references other wiki entries and forum posts as required.

Phil Leigh
2008-03-11, 12:43
Yes - it would be a rather monumental task...just thinking about the "Things you MUST do before posting about your problem on this board" makes my head hurt!
1) Install latest version of server AND firmware for your OS
2) Factory reset your SB
3) Clear library and rescan
4) TRY IT WIRED!
5) disable encryption/firewall/AV
.
.
.
3,209) zzzzzzzzzz.....

smc2911
2008-03-11, 20:28
Despite a certain amount of heat and light in this thread, I've actually learnt something here. Thanks for the pointer to the wiki article (I use the wiki a fair bit, but hadn't come across that page), and thanks to Robin for the 24 bit upscaling explanation. The way I tend to use the SBC volume control is to have it at full most of the time, but use the SBC from time to time to turn the volume down to, say, 75%, (e.g. if someone is using the phone in the next room). I would conclude from the discussion here that I'm not really suffering in any way by doing this (other than missing out on a bit of volume of course :))

corbey
2008-03-12, 11:04
I admit that I actually like the volume control and use it, even though I have a high-end system where I can hear the difference. Since I have a purist preamp with no remote, I use the volume control on the SB3 all the time, especially when I'm too lazy to get out of my chair or have had one (or two) too many! Cheers.

Robin Bowes
2008-03-12, 17:45
smc2911 wrote:
> I would conclude from the discussion here that I'm not really
> suffering in any way by doing this (other than missing out on a bit
> of volume of course :))

Can you hear any deficiency? If not, you're not missing out on anything.

Actually, you're not anyway but, even if you were, if you can't hear it
then you're actually not. :)

R.

smc2911
2008-03-12, 19:52
I could never hear any deficiency and now I know why.

FaberOptimé
2008-05-21, 06:10
Varying with many other posters, I have some sympathy with the OP in that I want to be able to control volume exclusively on my amp and get a (fixed) best possible output from the connected Squeezebox (Duet).
I am awaiting the day when the volume buttons on the controller can IR control my amp!