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andreask2
2008-02-27, 10:46
Hi!

I really like the Squeezebox products, but I'm wondering why it cannot be used with upnp/dlna-certified servers? I'm using a consumer NAS (DiskStation from Synology), which provides an upnp server. with 64MB RAM and 266 MHz it's probably too slow to run slimserver fast enough, but even if it's fast enough, I will void my guarantee if I install it. From the synology community I know, that many people would buy a squeezebox, if they had not to install slimserver. And I don't think that many people like running it on their PCs with 200W power consumption. And probably most people don't like going to their PC, booting it to switch slimserver on before they can listen to music on sunday morning...

UPnP and especialy DLNA has become something like an industry standard. Even PS3 MediacCenter, XBox360, XBMC, Apple TV, every Windows PC and other products can play music and videos from an upnp server. Since Squeezebox did not support upnp, I bought a Freecom MusicPal, which is far cheaper and is capable of playing media from upnp servers. But this device has some problems (which have nothing to do with its upnp integration, which works perfectly), so I'd really like to obtain 2 Squeezeboxes. So I'm asking here, if their is a chance that Squeezebox will support upnp servers some day?

And yes, I have read some threads about the topic, like
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=29706
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43840
and I understood that there are so meny great plugins which would not work using a upnp server. But are you sure that there are more people who need these plugins, than people who want to use their existing upnp servers? I'm using mediatomb as upnp server, and here you can change the whole listing and browsing structure of your files. This is the most critical task I think. I think that most people want a convenient listing of their files, and want to browse through the mp3-metadata of their music collection. That's what you can do with an upnp server like mediatomb. mediatomb is really nice, as here is a very active community which improves the server, and it's very customizable and runs nicely on a NAS (there are already ipkg packages for most NAS).
And as response to the "rendering on the server" issue, I'm programmer too and I really don't see the difficulty in changing the interface-layer, to simply render the upnp data send from the server. Free libraries are available for all platforms which will do the most difficult tasks like communication with upnp servers.

Why not supporting, both slimserver for those needing the plugins, and upnp for those who simply want to listen to their mp3 collection without breaking the guarantee of their NAS?

Have a look at the list of devices mediatomb upnp server supports: http://mediatomb.cc/pages/devices (not complete!). Or look at what TwonkyVision supports: http://www.twonkymedia.com/Products/TwonkyMedia/devices.html
So if Squeezebox would support upnp too, everybody using any of the devices mentioned in the links above could use a Squeezebox, without the need of installing any additional software! And don't forget that installing slimserver on a NAS is not a simple task for the average user... (most NAS already ship with upnp servers, some even with twonky or mediatomb).

Once there is upnp server support, I'll definitely buy 2 or perhaps 3 Squeezeboxes, because I really like the devices itself. I hope for you, that this will happen before other companies come up with similar devices which include upnp support.

best regards
Andreas

amcluesent
2008-02-27, 12:51
So, I guess there is an engineers answer and a marketing answer. The engineer may say that there isn't space in the EEPROM (or whatever it is) of the SB3/SBC to take the code that would be required for a ControlPoint/Renderer.

The marketing answer may be that the SC7 provides a differentiation in the marketplace from low-fi players, such as games consoles and the like, where the UPnP playback function is essentially 'free'.

Triode
2008-02-27, 15:23
If there is not already one, then its worth raising an enhancement request for this. You can browse a upnp server from the player as long as you use SqueezeCentre.

What is possible (subject to an enhancement request) would be to do the same think using SqueezeNetwork. This would enable you to do this with your SqueezeCentre PC turned off. Its necessary to have a server as the player itself relies on SqueezeCenter or SqueezeNetwork to control it [in its current form it could connect the the upnp server on its own]

This is something which was tentatively discussed in the past so it is definately worth registering interest via an enhancement request. [I think enough work was done to prove it would be possible]

kdf
2008-02-27, 15:54
If there is not already one

for the clients:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=819

and also for acting as a server:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5091

-kdf

Triode
2008-02-27, 16:13
What I am proposing is more related to bug 819, but the key thing is to use SN to do the upnp client. This would allow use of a local upnp server (e.g nas) in the same way as mp3tunes.

Its possible, but needs enough requests....

andyg
2008-02-27, 18:36
Yeah Triode and I played with UPnP via SN but ran into some firmware bugs with having the player proxy a lot of HTTP requests back and forth to the UPnP server. The firmware would also need to proxy UPnP broadcast packets back to the server. I've updated bug 819.

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-28, 07:14
But are you sure that there are more people who need these plugins, than people who want to use their existing upnp servers?

Logitech doesn't dictate which plugins get written, they get written by users who wanted to solve a problem they have or extend functionality. So it's not a choice of one or the other.

A UPnP client would have to be built into the player firmware, no small feat. It's up to Logitech of course, but there's a lack of interest in this forum because SqueezeCenter (even if not everyone likes it) provides many, many more features than a UPnP server. Personally I'd rather Logitech work on just about anything else...I'd never use a UPnP server myself and I have no interest in it.


I'm using mediatomb as upnp server, and here you can change the whole listing and browsing structure of your files. This is the most critical task I think. I think that most people want a convenient listing of their files, and want to browse through the mp3-metadata of their music collection. That's what you can do with an upnp server like mediatomb. mediatomb is really nice, as here is a very active community which improves the server, and it's very customizable and runs nicely on a NAS (there are already ipkg packages for most NAS).

Then why can't mediatomb be made to "speak" SlimProto? SlimProto is as open as UPnP. Why does Logitech have to adapt the Squeezebox to it and not the other way around?

jaysung
2008-03-01, 03:30
Because slimproto is proprietary in that it is not mainstream standard.
But when thinking about dlna on sB3 one has to consider that xbox and ps3 and alike a huge monsters in calculation power and what I wouldn't like. The arn't as silent as SB3. Well, perhaps a noxon 2 audio or such would be silent but they are not my cup of tea.

Only thing I can not understand why does the opener of this thread not install slimserver on his synology nas. There is a package out there isn't it? Well, voided warranty. Who actually cares ;)) And it should always be possible to remove the software all together.

radish
2008-03-01, 12:36
Because slimproto is proprietary in that it is not mainstream standard.

But that isn't what proprietary means. How open something is has nothing to do with how many people use it.

MasterYeti
2008-03-24, 05:08
I would second the request for UPnP support on the SB devices.

The single advantage Sonos has over these systems, is their ability to index music from any NAS with a network share. With UPnP support Squeezebox could come a long way in the same direction.
I would love to not have to turn on my computer to listen to my music, which is stored on my NAS anyways.

In order to store the information about the music on the NAS or any other UPnP enabled device .. perhaps the Squeezebox controller with a memorycard could do the trick?

m1abrams
2008-03-24, 05:27
I would second the request for UPnP support on the SB devices.

The single advantage Sonos has over these systems, is their ability to index music from any NAS with a network share. With UPnP support Squeezebox could come a long way in the same direction.
I would love to not have to turn on my computer to listen to my music, which is stored on my NAS anyways.

In order to store the information about the music on the NAS or any other UPnP enabled device .. perhaps the Squeezebox controller with a memorycard could do the trick?

Ah but remember I believe the one of Sonos weakness is because of its UPNP nature, that is it can not index large collections. I think the limit is 40k songs. Some of you may think that is huge, however a good number of people see that as small.

andyg
2008-03-24, 06:21
If/when we implement UPnP via SN, there won't be any indexing. The UPnP server will perform the indexing and you'd get the menus provided by the server. This is the way most UPnP client devices work.

Zaragon
2008-03-24, 08:28
The difficulty I envisage with uPNP is that it is kind of an ad-hoc system which allows any given client to connect to any given server at any time. I can see people having problems:
*I can see x servers which is my music on?
*Why does the music stop when fred switches off his PC.
*Why can I see the same music on different servers
*Why are there different servers and why do they keep changing
*Why can't I play picture.jpg?

and then there are those servers that want to authorize the players before they connect them.

On top of which will be all the usual network, firewall, port, tag problems as well as however the uPNP server choses to catagorise and serve them.

I'm glad I don't work for support :)
[Wait a minute, that's what I'm doing here for free. Darn!]

labeelen
2008-05-09, 18:42
L.s.,

I also think UPnP support would be a great option.
The SqueezeCenter program is getting to heavy for my Synology DS-106 but UPnP support would enable me to continue using the SqueezeBox.

regards,

Louis

pippin
2008-05-09, 18:58
What about DAAP?
THAT would help me get rid of one other server software I currently use