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JimC
2008-02-13, 18:44
Our Squeezebox community is growing rapidly, bringing new challenges and opportunities. As you may have noticed, we've recently started to moderate postings to the forums in response to the increasing number of threads that have violated one or more of the following guidelines:

* Profanity: This post contains expletives or vulgar language. Please post in more friendly manner.
* Personal attack: Insults or rude ad hominem arguments directed at another member are not permitted.
* Troll / Flamebait: This post is worded in such a way as to evoke an emotional response, rather than to start a constructive dialogue.
* Inappropriate subject: Please choose a non-inflammatory subject line which actually describes the subject matter of the thread.
* Illegal content: This thread contains legally prohibited or copyrighted material.

While we all adjust to having a moderated forum, there may be times when a thread is closed that you believe shouldn't have been. We will gladly listen to constructive feedback and will reopen the thread if warranted. We will also be "fine tuning" our moderation style, as we find the balance that allows us to have useful forums while doing the smallest amount of editing and/or closing of threads as possible. Please bear with us as we get better at this task. We hope that this will keep the overall dialog healthy and productive.

Please note that we will not close or edit threads that criticize our products, as long as they do not violate the guidelines spelled out above.

matthijskoopmans
2008-02-13, 22:07
While it may be viewed as unfortunate that it is required, unfortunately it is required..

There is a saying that says: "if you treat people like children, they will behave like children". The reverse is also true: "if you behave childish, you should not complain being treated accordingly"

I welcome the move for moderation.. for the majority of posters, this will have no significant impact. For those whose posts seem to change the open, friendly, and supported nature of the forum, I expect there to be a massive impact, and I guess they just will have to find their own way to deal with that :)

Cheers

Matt

y360
2008-02-13, 22:46
I'm not against censorship in principal.

However the threads in question dealt with legitimate complaints such as the pricing in Australia and a problem with the software.
The language may have shown exasperation but nothing really seriously bad.

Blocking those specific threads seems high-handed and vain.
It does not serve the interest of the company nor of its customers.

IMHO Mr Adams made an error in judgment, and could have been be a bit more patient and secure in his success, and a bit less sensitive to criticism.

Mitch Harding
2008-02-13, 23:04
I, for one, did not mind the fact that these threads had criticisms, I
just thought the way they were expressed was very rude and, in some
cases, came across as trolling. In all cases the criticisms could
have been expressed in a civil manner, IMO.

On Feb 13, 2008 11:46 PM, y360
<y360.34ralb1202968201 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not against censorship in principal.
>
> However the threads in question dealt with legitimate complaints such
> as the pricing in Australia and a problem with the software.
> The language may have shown exasperation but nothing really seriously
> bad.
>
> Blocking those specific threads seems high-handed and vain.
> It does not serve the interest of the company nor of its customers.
>
> IMHO Mr Adams made an error in judgment, and could have been be a bit
> more patient and secure in his success, and a bit less sensitive to
> criticism.
>
>
> --
> y360
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> y360's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10150
>
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43454
>
>

seanadams
2008-02-13, 23:10
I think you are confused about why these threads were closed. It is because we are no longer allowing profanity and personal insults. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether we agree with anyone's viewpoint.

smc2911
2008-02-13, 23:15
In my own defence (as perpetrator of the Australian thread), I would concede that the choice of one particuar word in the title was ill-advised for a broad audience, but at least the title was clearer than some as to the content of the thread and I would contend that the post itself was civil if frustrated. Still, that thread eventually petered out of its own accord and did not need to be closed.

While posts can be edited (too late for those on mailing lists of course), is there any way that thread initiators could edit thread titles?

erland
2008-02-13, 23:33
Moderation is a good thing, at least as long as it doesn't result in closing every thread that criticize Logitech products. Sean has already stated that thread with criticism will not be closed if they follow the other rules. Moderation will make this forum feel like a better place to spend time on which also results in that more people get help and Logitech get more constructive feedback on their products (both positive and negative).

If your thread gets closed, just go back and read the initial post in this thread, figure out why your thread was closed and start a new one where you try to express yourself in a more civil manner and provide a non-inflammatory subject on the new thread.

ModelCitizen
2008-02-14, 00:24
This is going to seriously reduce the amount of conversation in the Audiophile forum, is is that forum exempt?
:-)

MC

MuckleEck
2008-02-14, 02:36
This is going to seriously reduce the amount of conversation in the Audiophile forum, is is that forum exempt?
:-)

MC

Not unless you have a doctor's certificate.....

peter
2008-02-14, 03:17
JimC wrote:
> Our Squeezebox community is growing rapidly, bringing new challenges and
> opportunities. As you may have noticed, we've recently started to
> moderate postings to the forums in response to the increasing number of
> threads that have violated one or more of the following guidelines:
>

Sadly necessary. I wonder how this change will impact the people who
follow this forum as a mailing list (I've been subscribed since when
there wasn't even a forum). How can I tell that a thread is closed? What
happens if I reply to a message anyway? I already suffer the
'CheapNokia's' spam that I suppose is deleted on the forums.

Regards,
Peter

gbruzzo
2008-02-14, 03:35
I completely agree about the rejection of profanity.
My only hope is that you will not delete posts that contain criticisms of Logitech kit - I have seen it happen on Microsoft, Apple and Logitech forums - once this starts to happen people usually leave.

Regards,

Giacomo

James_B
2008-02-14, 03:48
I completely agree about the rejection of profanity.
My only hope is that you will not delete posts that contain criticisms of Logitech kit - I have seen it happen on Microsoft, Apple and Logitech forums - once this starts to happen people usually leave.

Regards,

Giacomo

Totally agree.

But why canīt offensive posts be deleted/moderated, rather than whole threads removed or locked? Sometimes it is uclear why action is being taken against a thread other than it being plain stupid and the boiler plate proposed is vague.

In the case of the Australia thread, if the thread was profane or insulting why not delete it? Why lock it?

gbruzzo
2008-02-14, 03:53
Totally agree.

In the case of the Australia thread, if the thread was profane or insulting why not delete it? Why lock it?

I guess that locking it is a way to make a point whilst retaining some of the good information that might have nevertheless been posted.

slimkid
2008-02-14, 07:32
I...
While posts can be edited (too late for those on mailing lists of course), is there any way that thread initiators could edit thread titles?

From Edit page, there's a button 'Go Advance'. That takes you to the extended edit screen where the subject line is exposed.

BTW, I agree that the 'Australian' thread thread should have been split into two legitimate threads and kept alive.

K

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-14, 07:49
From Edit page, there's a button 'Go Advance'. That takes you to the extended edit screen where the subject line is exposed.

But note that this will change it on the thread view, it won't change the subject line on the forum view (the one which shows all the threads).

At least on the vBulletin forums I've seen!

James_B
2008-02-17, 06:29
Our Squeezebox community is growing rapidly, bringing new challenges and opportunities. As you may have noticed, we've recently started to moderate postings to the forums in response to the increasing number of threads that have violated one or more of the following guidelines:

* Profanity: This post contains expletives or vulgar language. Please post in more friendly manner.
* Personal attack: Insults or rude ad hominem arguments directed at another member are not permitted.
* Troll / Flamebait: This post is worded in such a way as to evoke an emotional response, rather than to start a constructive dialogue.
* Inappropriate subject: Please choose a non-inflammatory subject line which actually describes the subject matter of the thread.
* Illegal content: This thread contains legally prohibited or copyrighted material.

While we all adjust to having a moderated forum, there may be times when a thread is closed that you believe shouldn't have been. We will gladly listen to constructive feedback and will reopen the thread if warranted. We will also be "fine tuning" our moderation style, as we find the balance that allows us to have useful forums while doing the smallest amount of editing and/or closing of threads as possible. Please bear with us as we get better at this task. We hope that this will keep the overall dialog healthy and productive.

Please note that we will not close or edit threads that criticize our products, as long as they do not violate the guidelines spelled out above.

Do moderators have a position on sexism in posts? I just wonder when i see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks come up again and again.

I know it is a hard line to draw - but whilst some may well be offended by what they call "profane" language (and others are not), perhaps there are posts that make some areas of the demographic feel equally isolated whilst seeming normal - even amusing - to the rest.

gbruzzo
2008-02-17, 08:39
Do moderators have a position on sexism in posts? I just wonder when i see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks come up again and again.


My wife has good taste in music but also possesses the "touch of death" on technology. Am I implying anything about gender? Not at all, nor would I ever dare. Do repeated observations say anything about the nature of reality? They do not (Hume's problem of induction). Do I like to tease her on the matter? I sure do...

I personally feel the moderating categories are broad enough...
Bear in mind that there is one volume plug-in that would fall under your axe...

Regards,

Giacomo

danco
2008-02-17, 09:11
Do moderators have a position on sexism in posts? I just wonder when i see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks come up again and again.

I know it is a hard line to draw - but whilst some may well be offended by what they call "profane" language (and others are not), perhaps there are posts that make some areas of the demographic feel equally isolated whilst seeming normal - even amusing - to the rest.

And, though not so far on these forums, there is often also ageism when discussing technology.

peter
2008-02-17, 11:29
danco wrote:
> James_B;270335 Wrote:
>
>> Do moderators have a position on sexism in posts? I just wonder when i
>> see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks
>> come up again and again.
>>
>> I know it is a hard line to draw - but whilst some may well be offended
>> by what they call "profane" language (and others are not), perhaps there
>> are posts that make some areas of the demographic feel equally isolated
>> whilst seeming normal - even amusing - to the rest.
>>
>
> And, though not so far on these forums, there is often also ageism when
> discussing technology.
>

While we're at it: I found the guy posting as 'notanatheist' inflammatory ;)

Regards,
Peter (perhaps we're going a little too far here)

morris_minor
2008-02-17, 16:37
danco wrote:
> James_B;270335 Wrote:
>
>> Do moderators have a position on sexism in posts? I just wonder when i
>> see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks
>> come up again and again.
>>
>> I know it is a hard line to draw - but whilst some may well be offended
>> by what they call "profane" language (and others are not), perhaps there
>> are posts that make some areas of the demographic feel equally isolated
>> whilst seeming normal - even amusing - to the rest.
>>
>
> And, though not so far on these forums, there is often also ageism when
> discussing technology.
>

While we're at it: I found the guy posting as 'notanatheist' inflammatory ;)

Regards,
Peter (perhaps we're going a little too far here)

Everything and anything you say can offend someone, somewhere! We just need a little commonsense, IMHO :o)

And the use of WAF isn't meant in a derogatory way, I don't think. It's probably a good thing that at least one adult member of the household has a grip on reality . . .

Kurt
2008-02-17, 18:22
With these rules in place the Audiophile forum will be shutdown in about 20 minutes.

haunyack
2008-02-17, 18:38
I just wonder when i see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks come up again and again.


I'm a lousy shopper, can't cook, haven't a clue about sewing, hate sex in the morning, and am a fashion disaster.
However, I can turn a wrench, fix a roof, pour concrete, tube weld, spend endless hours tweaking my home audio or computer systems.
The semantics of these statements may imply sexism, but in truth they point to just a few of my many limitations/abilities.


.

Michaelwagner
2008-02-19, 04:24
With these rules in place the Audiophile forum will be shutdown in about 20 minutes.

This goes a long distance towards explaining why I stopped reading it eons ago.

bobkoure
2008-02-19, 20:35
The profanity/racism/personal attacks are easy - and I think most posters know they've stepped over the line when they do that.

IMO the hard ones are the requests for help that are titled something like "Will this piece of junk ever work?". Yeah, that sounds/feels inflammatory - but the thread author is basically frustrated and about to decide that their Squeezebox was a bad idea. If that's as far as it would go, I'd be glad to see their backs - but it's not: they'll end up bad-mouthing the product(s) - and it's easy for that stuff to spread.
So... what to do?
There was a thread about inflammatory titles, and some really good responses - particularly the (paraphrasing here) "Your question makes me think of some answers but the way you phrased the question makes me want to not answer" - maybe there's a good "canned" response we can come up with that explains all this, asks the poster to ask again in more temperate language and then the thread gets locked - and maybe deleted after, say 30 days, so the poster gets a chance to read the response before the thread disappears, they get a shot at re-asking, and get to realize that that kind of title won't work here.
Does that sound reasonable? Overkill? Way too much work for moderators?

JimC
2008-02-20, 01:25
Do moderators have a position on sexism in posts? I just wonder when i see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks come up again and again.

I know it is a hard line to draw - but whilst some may well be offended by what they call "profane" language (and others are not), perhaps there are posts that make some areas of the demographic feel equally isolated whilst seeming normal - even amusing - to the rest.

Our overall intent is to minimize the "noise" -- the stuff that detracts from the quality information here. I think everyone on the staff, and in the community, would object to blatant sexism, but this is an incredibly diverse group of people and what one culture finds objectionable, another finds normal.

There's going to be times when someone uses a little off-color humor, sexual innuendo, etc. I'd hate to see that normal human interaction diminished, even though it might offend someone. We'll use judgement -- our very best, even -- to decide what to do.

We were quite sincere about wanting to moderate as little as possible, and about being completely open to fine-tuning our moderating style. We'll try to judge what's good / bad, but we will listen to everyone's feedback and adjust as we go.

And, for the benefit of people just tuning in, we will NOT delete posts critical of our products unless they directly violate one of the general guidelines.


-=> Jim

Michaelwagner
2008-02-20, 04:05
Experience shows that, as the audience grows, you're going to have to contend with a more diverse audience, some of whom have less than stellar motivations. As a result, you're going to have to put up with trolls and flamebait. It might be wise to come up with a strategy now, ahead of the next incident.

Siduhe
2008-02-20, 05:44
I just wonder when i see the WAF / women can't operate electronics / pick music -remarks come up again and again.

I've said my piece on this a few times, but as one of the (few?) women who post on here regularly, I'd agree with what Jim and others have said. Personally, I dislike the way "WAF" can and is used, but I've never seen it as anything other than affectionate here and, as a result, can't get too wound up about it.

Where I do agree with James is that there's sometimes a general level of background chatter which is pretty off-putting to the casual female browser and does (again, in my opinion) on occasions reinforce the idea that women can't do anything other than "plug and play" technology. However, it's far from exclusive to this forum and isn't something you can moderate (IMHO).

I also think haunyack's response hits the nail on the head - in every human relationship we tend fall into roles: one welds, the other cooks, one does technology, the other pays the bills on time. If it works for you, it's hardly sexist. What's sexist is assuming that everyone else is the same way or that's the "right" way to be.

Teus de Jong
2008-02-20, 06:06
It might be a good idea to have a separate thread with guidelines for the forum. I've seen this in the Adobe InDesign forum (where I used to be a regular) and it works very well. Not only is there a chance people will read the guidelines, but when they do not, it is very easy to point 'offenders' to that thread.

BTW, a very good rule from those InDesign guidelines is not to offend the regulars, because in that way you are minimizing the chance you will get an adequate reply to your question.

Just an idea.

Teus

iPhone
2008-02-20, 21:00
Our overall intent is to minimize the "noise" -- the stuff that detracts from the quality information here. I think everyone on the staff, and in the community, would object to blatant sexism, but this is an incredibly diverse group of people and what one culture finds objectionable, another finds normal.

There's going to be times when someone uses a little off-color humor, sexual innuendo, etc. I'd hate to see that normal human interaction diminished, even though it might offend someone. We'll use judgement -- our very best, even -- to decide what to do.

We were quite sincere about wanting to moderate as little as possible, and about being completely open to fine-tuning our moderating style. We'll try to judge what's good / bad, but we will listen to everyone's feedback and adjust as we go.

And, for the benefit of people just tuning in, we will NOT delete posts critical of our products unless they directly violate one of the general guidelines.


-=> Jim


I did not read every post in this thread. Has anyone suggested that the WIKI be revisited/add to/improved by looking at the most asked questions on the Forum and revising or editing the WIKI to cover more of what gets asks repeatedly?

Is there a logical way to layout the whole sight so that new people will read or check the WIKI before posting? I know that the WIKI helped me a bunch when I first started. And I still find answers in it to little things that I have forgotten. Why can't I get it to do this? So I recheck the WIKI and it is right there in black and white. The WIKI is very useful to all users, but for me it helps keep the differences in file types as well as what my Transporter will do that my SB3s will not.

ceejay
2008-02-21, 02:36
Has anyone suggested that the WIKI be revisited/add to/improved by looking at the most asked questions on the Forum and revising or editing the WIKI to cover more of what gets asks repeatedly?


Well, that was the inspiration behind the Beginners Guide in the Wiki in the first place (I got fed up with the same Q&A in the forums every day!) and thats how it gets added to now: I hang out in the Beginners forum and if a question comes up more than once then I try to put the answer in the wiki somewhere.

Usually, of course, the answer is already there, which comes back to your other question about how we can make it easier for people to find (its actually not that easy if you don't know where to look ... that one little link "WIKI" at the top of the page).

Then again, if the forums are now moderated (to get back on topic), what about the wiki?? [NB I don't really mean that, we don't have a problem there yet that I've seen, but there is the risk that a disgruntled person who was prevented from saying their stuff on the forums might let rip in the wiki...]

Ceejay

iPhone
2008-02-21, 10:42
... I hang out in the Beginners forum and if a question comes up more than once then I try to put the answer in the wiki somewhere....

Ceejay

Cool Beans. Thanks CeeJay and all the others that keep the WIKI current. The WIKI would not be the wonderful resource it has become without your efforts.

Back on topic but still about the WIKI, I still believe that finding some way to get beginners to read/search the WIKI before posting would reduce some of the noise on the Forum, relieve the veteran posters of repeated identical questions that stress them out, as well as keep beginners from becoming frustrated to the point that posts need to be moderated.

As to moderating, Slim Devices deserves credit for having a very light hand as well as being open to allow all opinions even if they are critical of their products. Additionally I believe there has yet to be a post from a real SD user that was deleted (besides pure commercial ads from non-SD users). Questionable posts were only locked to read only.

haunyack
2008-02-21, 10:57
...I believe there has yet to be a post from a real SD user that was deleted ...

I've had a few deleted (deservedly so) and have also deleted a few of my less that stellar (offensive) posts myself.
I've learned (learning) to allow myself a "cooling off" period whenever I am frustrated and am about to post, whether related to my current frustration or not.

Agreed that SD/LT has handled the situation well for the most part and am appreciative of the delicacy in which they tread.
Although some here would call me hypocritical, I believe one has the power to objectively self-examine and re-tool.

.

Phil Leigh
2010-02-11, 11:18
Please can we add cross-posting as a reason for deleting a thread?

usch
2010-02-11, 15:00
I think locking all but one would be sufficient.

DaveWr
2010-02-11, 15:36
If you wish to change posters habits, I think some rules and guidelines should be created and clearly available to all. Many new arrivals will struggle with where to post, and be totally unaware of applicable rules. A sticky might help.

Dave

kdf
2010-02-11, 16:32
This thread is a sticky, and the rules (at least as they were at the outset) are in the first post.
-k

DaveWr
2010-02-11, 16:42
But they are not declared as such. I doubt many would know that. And a title Forum Procedures and Rules might help.

Dave

Phil Leigh
2010-02-11, 23:43
I think locking all but one would be sufficient.

Yes that is what I meant.

Nonreality
2010-08-30, 01:29
This thread is a sticky, and the rules (at least as they were at the outset) are in the first post.
-k
I've been here for 3-4 years and only one person has been rude to me. KDF and I really think it was a bad day for him. At least I think so and I forgive him so I don't think a rule change would be in order. I know he gives a lot to this place and he doesn't get paid for it. It was the only time kdf that I felt attacked and I know you were just in a bad way. Anyway not a big deal.
As far as moderation,not a problem in anyway. This is a no call in my mind.

Phil Leigh
2010-10-30, 04:43
I am new here, so i had read forums rules, they are very strict.

Seriously? - You think these rules are "very strict"? - which of them would you like to violate?
...



Our Squeezebox community is growing rapidly, bringing new challenges and opportunities. As you may have noticed, we've recently started to moderate postings to the forums in response to the increasing number of threads that have violated one or more of the following guidelines:

* Profanity: This post contains expletives or vulgar language. Please post in more friendly manner.
* Personal attack: Insults or rude ad hominem arguments directed at another member are not permitted.
* Troll / Flamebait: This post is worded in such a way as to evoke an emotional response, rather than to start a constructive dialogue.
* Inappropriate subject: Please choose a non-inflammatory subject line which actually describes the subject matter of the thread.
* Illegal content: This thread contains legally prohibited or copyrighted material.

While we all adjust to having a moderated forum, there may be times when a thread is closed that you believe shouldn't have been. We will gladly listen to constructive feedback and will reopen the thread if warranted. We will also be "fine tuning" our moderation style, as we find the balance that allows us to have useful forums while doing the smallest amount of editing and/or closing of threads as possible. Please bear with us as we get better at this task. We hope that this will keep the overall dialog healthy and productive.

Please note that we will not close or edit threads that criticize our products, as long as they do not violate the guidelines spelled out above.

JJZolx
2010-10-31, 13:17
Seriously? - You think these rules are "very strict"? - which of them would you like to violate?

You know what strikes me about that post more than anything else? The moniker of 'jennifer'. This forum has been going strong for something like 5 years and nobody has registered the name 'jennifer' until just now? Gives you an idea how guy-centric a device like the Squeezebox is and more than just a hint of how geeky it is and why it never took off in the marketplace.

Mnyb
2010-10-31, 13:41
I am new here, so i had read forums rules, they are very strict.

pfff :) they are not strict compared to other forums, they are ok the rules focus the discussions.

On this forum you have .

Fanboys ;)

And a variant of "justice obsession syndrome" people that can badmount the product for years instead of A: get another product B: get a life or C: A & B .

Or look at for example the audiphile forum where people daily claims things about the product performance or behavior that's simply not true .

Try on another companies forum to say that the product s*cks then add some completely false claims about it's technical performance .
And also insult the devolpers while your at it.

here you can still be a member afterwards :)

Even obsesissve use of smilies are tolerated :)

My possitive interpretation is that they find this diparate and weird bunch of people provide something of value after all...

Oh and welcome to the forum .

Btw do you want to place "spam" or ads for something, why do you find the rules a problem.
After a couple of post you can freely post links, on the first post you can not place links, this is to filter out most of the spamm bot's out there.

nicketynick
2011-01-17, 12:34
Hi Mayank (moris),
Welcome to the forum.
This post is lost here in this thread. If you have a question, click the "New Thread" button at the top of the "General Discussion" page, and ask your question (don't forget to include a useful title). You'll find you'll get responses fairly quickly!
Good luck!
Nick

ANZAC
2012-03-23, 21:59
Our Squeezebox community is growing rapidly, bringing new challenges ... ...do not violate the guidelines spelled out above.

How very eloquent! Such a polite informative post!

pski
2012-03-28, 15:13
pfff :)
Fanboys ;)

And a variant of "justice obsession syndrome" people that can badmouth the product for years instead of A: get another product B: get a life or C: A & B .

Or look at for example the audiophile forum where people daily claims things about the product performance or behavior that's simply not true .



I appreciate both of these.

Ignorance is bliss and there are seemingly popular folks in the "Audiophile" area that simply do not understand HTTW. <How These Things Work>

paul

bobby911
2012-07-03, 13:35
as

misiozol
2015-08-26, 07:22
hello

dbm204
2016-07-26, 09:45
just a first post to open my account (been a follower since 2007)