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pfarrell
2008-02-10, 10:23
Or at least change them when rants start?

I really don't enjoy seeing message with titles such as:

-- WHY? Is Squeezebox only poorly implemented pipe dream?
-- Why Squeezebox sucks...
-- Australians being screwed on price??

showing up in my email inbox. I don't enjoy the coarse language, and they are all biased to start with.

I'd like to suggest some forum rules against such titles, and policies to back them up.

I thought that the purpose of the forums was to have users help each other.

radish
2008-02-10, 10:33
Agreed 100%. Many of us are here to help and genuinely want people to have a good SB experience, but it does grate when people (typically brand new members) launch into a tirade.

gbruzzo
2008-02-10, 11:13
I wholeheartedly agree. I guess this is a flipside of the squeezebox user base growing - give and take, give and take...

Regards,

Giacomo

mudlark
2008-02-10, 11:43
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments of this thread. I would love to hear from the shouters as to why they feel the best way to approach problems is to use brute force.

Modern technology has become so powerful that most people cannot hope to understand it fully. I include myself in this group. There are folks who try to aid communication between those who do understand the technology fully and the rest of us. We cannot live without each other as these modern complicated pieces of equipment need the experts to produce them and the majority to buy and enjoy them. Anyone who attempts to pervert communication between these two groups is in my opinion shooting themselves in the foot.

I am certain that the majority don't want to go back to the days of shellac and windup gramophones.

Please post nicely.

Mike.

Fifer
2008-02-10, 11:43
Gets my vote. I've always found that the best way to get help and/or meaningful responses is to be diplomatic, show a bit of respect and avoid appearing to seem like an incoherent ranter that few of us would cross a real-life street to assist.

JJZolx
2008-02-10, 13:31
Or at least change them when rants start?

I take it that you don't read the included messages, because they'd be too disturbing for you. It's just the titles that cause you some distress? Maybe the inflamatory titles are a good thing - then you know to avoid reading the accompanying message and becoming offended by the language or the tone.

pfarrell
2008-02-10, 13:44
JJZolx wrote:
>> Or at least change them when rants start?
>
> I take it that you don't read the included messages, because they'd be
> too disturbing for you. It's just the titles that cause you some
> distress? Maybe the inflamatory titles are a good thing - then you
> know to avoid reading the accompanying message and becoming offended by
> the language or the tone.

No I read some to see if there is any fundamental question that can be
quickly answered. I am more than willing to clear up confusion.

The title is just the first step. The silly flaming, bias and insults
have no place in civilized discussion.

But the tone of many of these postings drives away sane and rational people.

Killfiles, and 'ignore this user' on the website, help as well.

IMHO, this forum is quickly losing any value. Or as we used to say on
usenet, the signal to noise ratio is too low to bother with.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

gbruzzo
2008-02-10, 17:25
the signal to noise ratio is too low to bother with.


Let us not make that happen

smc2911
2008-02-11, 04:15
I would love to hear from the shouters as to why they feel the best way to approach problems is to use brute force.As I started one of the offending threads, I thought I would respond to this request. I don't think that inflammatory titles is my usual modus operandi (you can check here (http://forums.slimdevices.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=4388) to confirm/deny this), so what happened this time? Over the previous weeks I'd been busy proselytizing the merits of Squeezboxes in general and the promise of the Duet in particular. I'd persuaded two colleagues at work that this was just the music player for them: both the functionality and the price were just right. I'd subscribed to the notification list and then when the notification arrived that pre-ordering had commenced, I immediately passed on the good news. Unfortunately, we quickly discovered that we couldn't order on the slimdevices website and were redirected to the Logitech site. Not only was the price there around A$150 higher than we were expecting, but there was no option to pre-order. I felt I'd led the others astray and felt let down by Logitech, so it was something of an emotional response to post my frustration, and maybe my convict heritage shone through in my choice of the word "screwed" (I could be wrong, but perhaps this word is used more casually here in Oz and so I should have been more circumspect for an international audience). Having said that, I think that my language in the posts themselves was reasonably polite. So, I certainly wasn't aiming to be a troll and if anyone was offended by the language, I am sorry. If I'm not already in Pat's kill-file, perhaps he will show some clemency! The aim was simply to express my disappointment and frustration. Now I don't want to restart the debate about pricing here (if you have a comment on that topic, visit the original thread (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43128)), but I will say that I got some useful pointers to cheaper re-sellers, although in an ideal world I would have preferred to deal directly with Logitech.

So, I hope that provides some insight into the thinking of one of the trouble-makers.

egd
2008-02-11, 05:13
most of the bs threads are in the audiophile forum, the rest are comparatively free of noise

slimkid
2008-02-11, 20:31
Imagine my surprise when, after having years of Perl experience, I learned a new function while checking out some code in SC:

"# XXXX - WTF?"

Is this what I think it is, or I should really brush up on my Perl and English skills? :)

seanadams
2008-02-11, 22:58
We have tried for a long time to avoid moderating here. Spam and profanity are the only things we delete.

This forum is for you. I prefer not to police what people talk about but I do feel that we need to keep the environment civil and friendly. Criticism is welcome but the recent outbreak of anger, flamebait and trolling (er... outside of Audiophiles) is not helping.

Logitech will not host a forum for people to just have flame wars, if that's what this is degrading to. And Slim Devices wouldn't have either. Please, let's try to improve things.

morris_minor
2008-02-12, 03:24
As a relative newcomer to all things Slim I found this forum to be an excellent resource in helping me take the plunge. The fact that Sean & co particpate so much gives a value to this not often found. It happens to be the only forum I actually post in, and the only one I read with any regularity - because most (hi-fi) forums degenerate into slanging matches of the "my kit is better than yours, and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise" kind.

The help, support and humour here is to be valued - and we don't want Logitech pulling the plug!

amey01
2008-02-12, 03:39
I personally think this forum is EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT!!

But I have two things that might be of insight:

1: Some people end up here (and that explains why you say "new" members) at the end of a intensely frustrating day trying to get something to work - they may be a litle hot-headed!

2: I really think most people here are in *LOVE* with their Slim Devices product - and being so passionate about the device makes them a little more emotional than most. Of particular interest - note how the guy in "Here's why Squeezebox sucks" is banging on about how he is demonstrating his SB to his friends and "showing them how easy it is to use"........that is the brilliant thing about SD products - we are a passionate lot because we are fortunate to use one of the best products on the market.

SilverRS8
2008-02-12, 04:18
As a relative newcomer to all things Slim I found this forum to be an excellent resource in helping me take the plunge. The fact that Sean & co particpate so much gives a value to this not often found. It happens to be the only forum I actually post in, and the only one I read with any regularity - because most (hi-fi) forums degenerate into slanging matches of the "my kit is better than yours, and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise" kind.

The help, support and humour here is to be valued - and we don't want Logitech pulling the plug!

I totally agree that the fact that Sean & co participate themselfs so much is rarely seen. This and the fact that customer comments and ideas are actually taken seriously absolutly helps in product satisfaction (at least for me).

I hope the flaming stops here. If moderation is necessary so be it. This will always be the preferred solution over stop hosting the forum.

One thing that on my mind and I can't force myself to withhold from saying is that 'flaming' from logitech employees themself should also be forbidden. Especially when coming from the Online Communities Manager. I know there has been said already too much about this but never a reaction that this was indeed not the correct way of communicating with the community which i don't expect anymore but just hope that this will be also a point of attention.

Frank

guinness
2008-02-12, 04:35
I appreciate the sentiment behind this thread, but I'm afraid I dont agree with it one bit. Do you think we should also put a stop to any of the "I love my SB" titles too, just to ensure that we dont ever sway too close to voicing an opinion in either direction? Forums are about freedom of speech, and unless someone is posting something genuinely offensive, derogatory or illegal, we should be welcoming every opinion regardless of how strongly it is portrayed and how much it differs from our own.

From Google: define:Forum - A general discussion area for a free exchange of ideas, thoughts, and comments.

Siduhe
2008-02-12, 05:14
There forums are effectively self-moderating and I'd prefer they stayed that way. If someone posts something over the top, what usually happens is that there are some reasoned posts in response, often a helping hand or two, and in most cases the problem is resolved. In my experience, the OP will normally either retract or moderate the original complaint, even so far as editing the original post.

However, if people pile in and respond in kind to the inflamatory nature of the original post, you inevitably go down a flame-baiting route (my occasional forays into the Audiophile forum suggest so, anyway).

If something is truly offensive and derogatory it tends to get deleted by the admins. My personal level of offensive includes gratuitous use of swear words - I know some may not agree with that, but I think the admins should take a pretty strict view. There was a recent post that I found pretty offensive and upsetting not because of the content but only because of the language (and particularly the instruction to "get over it" if I didn't like it). It was deleted, however the OP has since said he would have amended to remove the language in any event.

One of the most effective posts I have ever seen on here was someone responding to a very over-the-top first post with (paraphrasing here) "Hi and welcome to the forums. Sorry to hear you're having problems. I have a few ideas, but posting stuff like that doesn't make me want to spend my time helping you. This is a user forum not an official support forum, so you may want to try SD Support in the meantime, as I expect a lot of other regulars will feel the same way as me when they see your post".

My take is that, if we want to keep these forums the way that most of us like them (a place to exchange ideas, get help and learn stuff we didn't know) then we have it in our gift to try and keep it that way.

Robin Bowes
2008-02-12, 05:29
guinness wrote:
> I appreciate the sentiment behind this thread, but I'm afraid I dont
> agree with it one bit. Do you think we should also put a stop to any
> of the "I love my SB" titles too, just to ensure that we dont ever sway
> too close to voicing an opinion in either direction? Forums are about
> freedom of speech, and unless someone is posting something genuinely
> offensive, derogatory or illegal, we should be welcoming every opinion
> regardless of how strongly it is portrayed and how much it differs from
> our own.
>
> From Google: define:Forum - -A general discussion area for a free
> exchange of ideas, thoughts, and comments.-

I find myself agreeing with guinness.

Speak your mind, but keep it clean.

R.

damian.duffy
2008-02-12, 05:38
This is a super forum and I'm sure it is frustrating for those who do know what they're talking about to see off-the-cuff and apparently disparaging comments.
But equally some people will want to have a rant and want to be understood. There's no point in me telling Mrs D about things - I have to come on here to find a sympathetic audience. or maybe just one that understands my point, even if they don't agree.

So can we have a 'rant' forum for gripes and whinges? You can ignore it if you want and read it if you want to be wound up.

DD

Phil Leigh
2008-02-12, 06:43
This is a super forum and I'm sure it is frustrating for those who do know what they're talking about to see off-the-cuff and apparently disparaging comments.
But equally some people will want to have a rant and want to be understood. There's no point in me telling Mrs D about things - I have to come on here to find a sympathetic audience. or maybe just one that understands my point, even if they don't agree.

So can we have a 'rant' forum for gripes and whinges? You can ignore it if you want and read it if you want to be wound up.

DD

That's actually a very good idea (IMHO).
At least all the stuff that none of us want to read is contained in one place.

radish
2008-02-12, 08:31
That's actually a very good idea (IMHO).
At least all the stuff that none of us want to read is contained in one place.

Better yet, if you feel like you need to rant just type up your comment in notepad. Then take a deep breath and delete it. You'll feel better and won't have wasted anyone's time :)

Phil Leigh
2008-02-12, 08:33
Better yet, if you feel like you need to rant just type up your comment in notepad. Then take a deep breath and delete it. You'll feel better and won't have wasted anyone's time :)

If only, Radish...if only...
You are right - that is amuch better idea!

Mitch Harding
2008-02-12, 10:16
I don't think (or maybe I just hope) that nobody is opposed to
negative opinions. I think the objection is to people who aren't
civil when expressing them. I don't think it's too much to ask that
people conduct themselves politely, regardless of the opinion they are
expressing.

On Feb 12, 2008 5:35 AM, guinness
<guinness.34o1go1202816402 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> I appreciate the sentiment behind this thread, but I'm afraid I dont
> agree with it one bit. Do you think we should also put a stop to any
> of the "I love my SB" titles too, just to ensure that we dont ever sway
> too close to voicing an opinion in either direction? Forums are about
> freedom of speech, and unless someone is posting something genuinely
> offensive, derogatory or illegal, we should be welcoming every opinion
> regardless of how strongly it is portrayed and how much it differs from
> our own.
>
> From Google: define:Forum - -A general discussion area for a free
> exchange of ideas, thoughts, and comments.-
>
>
> --
> guinness
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> guinness's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14824
>
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43308
>
>

pfarrell
2008-02-12, 10:30
Mitch Harding wrote:
> I don't think (or maybe I just hope) that nobody is opposed to
> negative opinions. I think the objection is to people who aren't
> civil when expressing them. I don't think it's too much to ask that
> people conduct themselves politely, regardless of the opinion they are
> expressing.

As the OP, I specifically asked that we use neutral thread titles.

I'm fine with civil disagreements. I'm not fine with rants and flame
wars. Personal attacks can destroy forums/usenet groups, etc.

I've got some 2000 postings, I've probably asked 20 questions, had 100
opinions, and tried to help 1700 times. If its not a civil place, I
won't waste my time.

Pat


--
Pat Farrell PRC recording studio
http://www.pfarrell.com/PRC

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-12, 10:55
One of the most effective posts I have ever seen on here was someone responding to a very over-the-top first post with (paraphrasing here) "Hi and welcome to the forums. Sorry to hear you're having problems. I have a few ideas, but posting stuff like that doesn't make me want to spend my time helping you. This is a user forum not an official support forum, so you may want to try SD Support in the meantime, as I expect a lot of other regulars will feel the same way as me when they see your post".

Oh that's excellent.

I think people put way too much emphasis on the adage "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" and not enough on the adage "you'll get more flies with sugar than with vinegar".

It's this "culture of entitlement" which is becoming more and more apparent in general, not just in this forum. It's a product of instant gratification - if you don't get it, you complain as loudly as possible.

Unfortunately maybe some don't realize that this is a user forum. It's not an official support forum and even though Logitech staffers post here from time to time this is not an official means of communication directly with them. So - people responding to posts aren't being paid, nor do they have to respond. If you antagonize them to start with you are not likely to get a useful response. The fact that such posters sometimes do get a useful response speaks to the extraordinary patience of some of the regulars here.

To add to this advice, sometimes posters want immediate help but are unwilling to do any work on their own. They feel that because they made an irate forum post, their problem deserves immediate attention. They sometimes don't give any specifics useful in solving their problem and assume the problem affects everybody. No, it doesn't affect everybody, so in order to see the problem it must be replicated, and in order to do that you need a similar software and sometimes hardware/network configuration. Without that crucial information, sometimes the problem will not be addressed.

maggior
2008-02-12, 11:20
If you antagonize them to start with you are not likely to get a useful response. The fact that such posters sometimes do get a useful response speaks to the extraordinary patience of some of the regulars here.


I've witness this and was amazed. There are some extraordinarily patient and helpful people on this forum. I sincerely hope that the antagonistic posts aren't the beginning of a trend which drives these knowledgable and patient people away. My personal opinion is that this forum is so entrenched in it's friendly ways that the antagonizers will either realize that it is the "honey that draws the bees" or give up and leave.

The help that I've received on this forum has had a direct influence on the immense amount of enjoyment I get from my squeezebox. For me, the supportive community is a significant part of why I like the squeezebox so much.

aubuti
2008-02-12, 12:17
...the adage "you'll get more flies with sugar than with vinegar".
though I've never understood why anyone wants flies... (and of course we all know what substance attracts more flies than anything!).

mudlark
2008-02-12, 14:05
though I've never understood why anyone wants flies... (and of course we all know what substance attracts more flies than anything!).

Aubuti, why are you so shy of using the word 'jam'?

My glass is always half full.

M.

PS SMC2911 - Thanks for the incite into the workings of the mind of a loud poster, If it's any consolation the price of gear in the Uk is without exception higher than one would expect when comparing prices from either Europe or the States.

I would also like to own up to be a wingeing pomme. What I do is kick the cat and try to keep my frustrations off the web. The internationally positive response that we see on these fori are a real joy. Personally I would like to see more posters from the near east, south america and russia. If it's any consolation there appear to be some aussies that run the english VIA forum and they are great people also.

M.

smc2911
2008-02-12, 14:20
PS SMC2911 - Thanks for the incite into the workings of the mind of a loud poster, If it's any consolation the price of gear in the Uk is without exception higher than one would expect when comparing prices from either Europe or the States.Perhaps I could say "one time loud poster". Or "one-time inflammatory titler"?

mudlark
2008-02-12, 14:31
Cheers mate, :)

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 14:32
We have tried for a long time to avoid moderating here. Spam and profanity are the only things we delete.

This forum is for you. I prefer not to police what people talk about but I do feel that we need to keep the environment civil and friendly. Criticism is welcome but the recent outbreak of anger, flamebait and trolling (er... outside of Audiophiles) is not helping.

Logitech will not host a forum for people to just have flame wars, if that's what this is degrading to. And Slim Devices wouldn't have either. Please, let's try to improve things.

thank you.

while i am sure the sentiments of the OP are well intentioned, i see it as nothing more than censorship.

sometimes people DO have problems and frustrations, and to criticize the SB and say this or that sucks, imo, is NOT uncivil, and often, is in fact HELPFUL to identify problems and / or get attention to an issue.

this forum should be "open" as the source code is. i for one believe in just saying what i honestly think about this or that and frankly if it offends the high priests and cheerleaders around here, TS. the idea that we need to silence criticism, is orwellian.

seanadams
2008-02-12, 14:40
this forum should be "open" as the source code is.

I feel like agreeing with you on some level, but I'm not sure what you mean by that.

The source code is readable by anyone, by writeable by only a very select few. I don't think any useful analogy can be made.


the idea that we need to silence criticism, is orwellian.

I hope you don't think that's what I was suggesting. Criticism is great, but there is a constructive and helpful way to go about it. I don't think that profanity and flaming should be accepted, whatever the subject matter.

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 14:50
I feel like agreeing with you on some level, but I'm not sure what you mean by that.

The source code is readable by anyone, by writeable by only a very select few. I don't think any useful analogy can be made.

sorry, lets consider it a bad metaphor. i just meant it in a very abstract sense, ie. the code isn't proprietary, why should the forum be? (i'm no george will)


I hope you don't think that's what I was suggesting. Criticism is great, but there is a constructive and helpful way to go about it. I don't think that profanity and flaming should be accepted, whatever the subject matter.

no, not at all! i was quoting you to make and expand on that point to others, basically the people agreeing with the OP, and i definitely agree on profanity and flaming, its just that "criticism" is very broad... what i see as constructive someone else might be offended by.

i just get the feeling that some here think "sucks" is beyond the pale, and thats what i consider orwellian.

seanadams
2008-02-12, 14:59
i just get the feeling that some here think "sucks" is beyond the pale, and thats what i consider orwellian.

I see many separate issues:

1) what words are acceptable?
2) shouldn't a subject describe, well, the subject of the post?
3) is flamebait acceptable?

dgpretzel
2008-02-12, 15:21
This forum is not open source, and it is not about free speech, although the owners may manage it that way, if they prefer.

Posting here is not a right. It is a privilege. That privilege is extended to users by the owners, who are the ones who pay the freight. The owners may continue to provide this forum, according to their preferences. Or not. They have been extraordinarily more than fair and balanced in the past, but have no obligation to do so.

Just my perspective.

Regards,

DG

mudlark
2008-02-12, 15:28
i just get the feeling that some here think "sucks" is beyond the pale, and thats what i consider orwellian.

The impression of words like "sucks" is that the user doesn't care. It's an easy and lazy throw away word which can be amusing in the appropriate context.

If someone is asking for help then why use words that are ill considered? Many people don't think the Sb3 sucks so the poster using such a term is going to alienate the very people who have the knowledge to help him. It just doesn't make sense.

From a third party angle it looks just, well, to use a phrase that my son would use, dumb.

Mitch Harding
2008-02-12, 15:38
I am not opposed to criticism, as long as it is civil and polite. If
I told one of my coworkers that the program they wrote sucks, or that
it was a poorly implemented pipe dream, I think it would be considered
rude. If I instead gave a reasoned explanation of weaknesses in their
code, I don't think that would be considered impolite, particularly if
is was accompanied by suggestions to improve it.

I am struggling to understand why it's important to be able to say
"The Squeezebox sucks" or "Is this just a poorly implemented pipe
dream". If the poster is trying to point out flaws in the product, or
ask for help, or suggest improvements, then it seems ANY of those
goals would be better accomplished by being polite about it.

Yes, people feel the need to vent when they are angry. But part of
being a mature adult is learning when to control those impulses.

All just my opinion, of course.

On Feb 12, 2008 3:50 PM, MrSinatra
<MrSinatra.34otxn1202853301 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
> no, not at all! i was quoting you to make and expand on that point to
> others, basically the people agreeing with the OP, and i definitely
> agree on profanity and flaming, its just that "criticism" is very
> broad... what i see as constructive someone else might be offended by.
>
>
> i just get the feeling that some here think "sucks" is beyond the pale,
> and thats what i consider orwellian.

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 16:20
different strokes for different folks.

the problem with how ones "feels" something should be comes in when one tries to codify it.

i for one, go for the "pornography" rule. i know it when i see it. and of course, thats subjective to everyone.

as i said, something i have no problem with might offend you and vice versa. good luck trying to invent "policies" to appease the OP or anyone else. the emphasis here should be on improving the product, and any kind of illegitimate inhibition to criticism is something i will oppose.

you may see "sucks" as rude, i don't. and i sure don't want to see the community insulate itself from criticism delivered on that level, b/c its too easy to then become a community of people who groupthink out something that is legit.

and moreover, if anything, the fanboys here, and i don't mean that in ANY kind of derogatory sense, already do a strong job of guarding their turf. its not like criticism here (both fair and unfair or uncivil even) goes unchecked. if anything, i think the problem is with the sensitivity level here, NOT the criticism (in any of the forms i've seen).

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 16:22
The impression of words like "sucks" is that the user doesn't care. It's an easy and lazy throw away word which can be amusing in the appropriate context.

If someone is asking for help then why use words that are ill considered? Many people don't think the Sb3 sucks so the poster using such a term is going to alienate the very people who have the knowledge to help him. It just doesn't make sense.

From a third party angle it looks just, well, to use a phrase that my son would use, dumb.

and thats the beauty of freedom. the people are free to say something, and you are free to ignore it, deride it, whatever.

but BAN it? make policies against it?

sorry, i take a stand there.

seanadams
2008-02-12, 16:37
I am going to go ahead and close the offending thread, while leaving it readable.

It's clear to me that we have to start moderating these forums if they are going to continue to be inviting and helpful to newcomers. I don't think we have to suppress any particular subject or point of view in order to do that, but we should require that people use meaningful subject lines, refrain from foul language, etc.

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 16:44
i fully support that you have the right to do it. as someone else said, this is your show, your forums, your deal.

but i just don't think it is right to do it. the shame is that the thread you closed clearly was constructive.

however, i greatly appreciate the chance to say this and that my opinion is heard.

i just hope someone else one day doesn't call it "uncivil."

seanadams
2008-02-12, 17:04
i fully support that you have the right to do it. as someone else said, this is your show, your forums, your deal.

We run the server and pay the bill, but the forum is FOR all of its members. If they are better served by moderated forums then we'll moderate. I realize that is debatable, but that is my take on the situation, and also seems to be the majority's sentiment at least in this thread. Of course we are open to other ideas.


but i just don't think it is right to do it. the shame is that the thread you closed clearly was constructive.

Indeed, but at least the topic has already been resumed under a more polite and informative topic heading.


however, i greatly appreciate the chance to say this and that my opinion is heard.

i just hope someone else one day doesn't call it "uncivil."

hear hear

radish
2008-02-12, 17:07
and thats the beauty of freedom. the people are free to say something, and you are free to ignore it, deride it, whatever.

but BAN it? make policies against it?

sorry, i take a stand there.

So you're fine with the forums being full of spam?

mudlark
2008-02-12, 17:08
and thats the beauty of freedom. the people are free to say something, and you are free to ignore it, deride it, whatever.

but BAN it? make policies against it?

sorry, i take a stand there.

I don't advocate banning the use of the word sucks, I just ask folks to make a balanced approach to posting. Why unnecessarily upset anyone? What do you want, the opportunity to post what you want or the opportunity to have access to the widest sources of advice possible? Think before you press return because someday you might not be able to.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 17:10
So you're fine with the forums being full of spam?


I don't think MrSinatra inferred that.
That's another issue and you know it.

.

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 17:18
I don't advocate banning the use of the word sucks, I just ask folks to make a balanced approach to posting. Why unnecessarily upset anyone? What do you want, the opportunity to post what you want or the opportunity to have access to the widest sources of advice possible? Think before you press return because someday you might not be able to.

i want everyone to have the the opportunity to express themselves as they see fit, and everyone else have the opportunity to respond as they see fit, or not, on a case by case basis.

what i don't want, is to see the community put hands over their collective eyes and ears and hear no evil see no evil on the basis that the criticism they are hearing is "uncivil."

spam, flaming, profanity are separate issues, narrowly defined, and not applicable to the points i'm making.

mudlark
2008-02-12, 17:25
i want everyone to have the the opportunity to express themselves as they see fit, and everyone else have the opportunity to respond as they see fit, or not, on a case by case basis.

what i don't want, is to see the community put hands over their collective eyes and ears and hear no evil see no evil on the basis that the criticism they are hearing is "uncivil."

spam, flaming, profanity are separate issues, narrowly defined, and not applicable to the points i'm making.

The problem I see with your attitude is that some people won't see the reasonableness of your thoughts. If these people happen to be the very people who can give you the advice you want, then you run the risk of not getting the advice at all.

I will now retire to the sack and you can have the last word!

Cheers,

Mike.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 17:35
The problem I see with your attitude is... If these people happen to be the very people who can give you the advice you want, then you run the risk of not getting the advice at all.

Small price to pay in my opinion.
The self-fulfilling nature of such a post probably deserves no advice.

If you don't believe me, just ask me. ;-)
(I hate smileys)

Cheers and sweet dreams.

.

radish
2008-02-12, 19:08
I don't think MrSinatra inferred that.
That's another issue and you know it.

.

No, it isn't, they're fundamentally the same. I don't believe that MrSinatra does think we should allow spam, and that's the point. We don't tolerate spam on the forum because it's noise that adds nothing to the general conversation. I would categorize some (very, very few) posts in the same way, and I don't see why they should be treated differently just because they were written by a person not a robot.

What I was implicitly asking MrSinatra was where do you draw the line? He stated that speech should be free, and that we should simply ignore what we don't want to read. That's a perfectly fine opinion (and one I have a lot of sympathy with), but that would imply that we should stop deleting spam and just let the visitors ignore it. Personally, I think that would make the forum less useful, and so the spam should be deleted. Likewise, I think there are some posts/threads which also make the forum less useful. No difference.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 19:16
No, it isn't, ...


spam, flaming, profanity are separate issues, narrowly defined, and not applicable to the points i'm making.


I'll let MrSinatra speak for himself then, in your case.

.

mlsstl
2008-02-12, 19:45
MrSinatra wrote:
spam, flaming, profanity are separate issues, narrowly defined...

There's the rub. What you infer to be so easily defined may not be so clear to another free speech advocate. What looks like a flame to you may well be a central, heartfelt issue for someone else. (Think of the scene where the in-laws meet in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding.")

The only opinion that really counts around here is that of the forum's owners. It can certainly be a challenge for them to decide where the line is drawn but it is their call and no one else's.

Sadly, what is often forgotten by the speech-with-no-barrier advocates is that there is no shortage of people who will, knowingly or not, test any situation to see just how far they can push things.

This is basically a help forum for a company's specific product. I would expect their tolerance for abuse to be substantially lower than an open political forum, for example. The reality is that constitutional issues are moot in a privately run forum and I have no problem with that. At such point that this or any other forum ceases to be useful to me, I have the option to go elsewhere or even start my own venue.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 19:49
Sadly, what is often forgotten by the speech-with-no-barrier advocates is that there is no shortage of people who will, knowingly or not, test any situation to see just how far they can push things.

If unknowingly, then the test point is moot.
Otherwise, how many times have you been in a theater and heard someone shout "FIRE!" just to test free speech?
I believe most "offensive" language that occurs in these forum is spontaneous and stems from frustration coupled with an immediate avenue of expression for that frustration.
The "intentional" stuff is readily apparent, and almost never happens here.

.

snarlydwarf
2008-02-12, 19:58
I believe most "offensive" language that occurs in these forum is spontaneous and stems from frustration coupled with an immediate avenue of expression for that frustration.
The "intentional" stuff is readily apparent, and almost never happens here.

So referring to the people who contribute as the "Brain trust" and calling the software "spaghetti code" is unintentional rudeness?

haunyack
2008-02-12, 20:00
So referring to the people who contribute as the "Brain trust" and calling the software "spaghetti code" is unintentional rudeness?

No my dear snarly (I DO mean that affectionately), it's intentional rudeness without the profanity. (I hate smileys)
btw - is "rudeness" a free speech issue?

I suppose a user with the same level of frustration would not consider that statement rude.
On the flipside, someone who works to make the code usable may find it offensive.

An oblique analogy -

If I play my music LOUD - my complaining neighbor does not object as long as it is something he agrees to.
I know NOT to play Rage Against The Machine, lest I get a visit from the Clackamas County Sheriff.


"Free Speech" - it's been sucked (oops - I said suck) in and neutered by the politically correct subjectivist's.

.

snarlydwarf
2008-02-12, 21:01
I suppose a user with the same level of frustration would not consider that statement rude.
On the flipside, someone who works to make the code usable may find it offensive.

And you believe that being deliberately offensive to anyone that might be willing to help is productive.

Interesting.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 21:10
And you believe that being deliberately offensive to anyone that might be willing to help is productive.

Interesting.

Who said anything about "productive"?
Start another thread if you wish to discuss production.

This thread is ostensibly concerned with the affects of "free speech" on individuals and the greater good of this forum, and Pat originally started this discussion with concerns over thread titles.

Not so interesting, but instead interestingly vital.
Try to keep to the subject at hand and above all, please don't make me a scapegoat according to your view of an unrelated post.

Criticism is always welcome (in any way you wish to word it) .. in the correct thread.

Loving you back.

.

pfarrell
2008-02-12, 21:32
haunyack wrote:
This thread is ostensibly concerned with the affects of "free speech"
> on individuals and the greater good of this forum.

Free speech as in free beer?
This site is not about free beer or free speech. Go to politico.com or
moveon.org for free speech. Similarly, this thread has nothing to do
with free speech, that is a red herring.

This is about folks using SqueezeBoxen (and descendants) helping each other.

If I want politics (poly-meaning many, tic - small biting bug) there are
plenty of places to go.

Good titles are: Help: windows firewall prevents Squeezebox music
You know what bad titles are.

This is not where users get official SlimDevices/Logitech support. Its
where users help each other. Rude behavior will drive out some users.

George Akerlof won a Nobel Prize in Economics for his paper on asymetric
information markets: "The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the
Market Mechanism" In it, he says that low-quality goods, without
information on the value/quality of the products drives out high-quality
goods. Help here is a 'good' that we exchange

I posit that rude behavior, rants, personal attacks, drive out quality help.

it has nothing to do with free speech, censorship, etc. its about manners.

--
Pat Farrell
A happy customer of SlimDevices/Logitech. I am not now, and never was,
an employee, spokesman, etc. of SD/Logitech.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 21:49
haunyack wrote:
This thread is ostensibly concerned with the affects of "free speech"
> on individuals and the greater good of this forum.

Free speech as in free beer?
This site is not about free beer or free speech. Go to politico.com or
moveon.org for free speech. Similarly, this thread has nothing to do
with free speech, that is a red herring.

This is about folks using SqueezeBoxen (and descendants) helping each other.

If I want politics (poly-meaning many, tic - small biting bug) there are
plenty of places to go.

Good titles are: Help: windows firewall prevents Squeezebox music
You know what bad titles are.

This is not where users get official SlimDevices/Logitech support. Its
where users help each other. Rude behavior will drive out some users.

George Akerlof won a Nobel Prize in Economics for his paper on asymetric
information markets: "The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the
Market Mechanism" In it, he says that low-quality goods, without
information on the value/quality of the products drives out high-quality
goods. Help here is a 'good' that we exchange

I posit that rude behavior, rants, personal attacks, drive out quality help.

it has nothing to do with free speech, censorship, etc. its about manners.

--
Pat Farrell
A happy customer of SlimDevices/Logitech. I am not now, and never was,
an employee, spokesman, etc. of SD/Logitech.


Wait a minute..you expressed consternation over inappropriate thread titles.

If you agree or not, it boils down to free beer..er speech.
No need for direction to other websites as we have simply followed and contributed to the discussion at hand.
Smokescreen or not.

You state
"This is about folks using SqueezeBoxen (and descendants) helping each other."

Where does that place in your original post, except for purpose?
The purpose is expression of concerns over the Squeeze suite.

You said
"Rude behavior will drive out some users"

Likewise, Title or content?

You said
"it has nothing to do with free speech, censorship, etc. its about manners"

That's terribly muddled.

And then there is this - "Pat originally started this discussion with concerns over thread titles" which is a pointer to this "Can we avoid inflamatory titles?"

Jeez Pat...makes me wonder what inspired the "free beer" comment.

.

MrSinatra
2008-02-12, 22:24
You know what bad titles are.

well, apparently YOU do.

i for one, don't share your level of sensitivity. i might call it hyper. is that rude of me?

my basic premise, just to restate, is that different folks have different standards, and i have all too often seen people, especially newbies, tarred and feathered here for what i consider to be legit criticsm based in facts or their legit experiences.

to codify these extremely broad rules (to satisfy subjective sensitivities) while seemingly on the surface appears reasonable; is ultimately i believe going to lead to groupthink atta-boys and insulates people from not only criticism, but new ideas, or even fundamental seismic shifts in paradigm and approach.

of course a balance is needed, but spam is in fact, narrowly defined, as is profanity. the mods handle those two things with no complaint from anyone i see. flaming is more broad, but again i see no complaints about how mods handle that as well.

the main problem as i see it, is one person says something critical, such as "SS sucks" and a whole lot of people take personal umbrage to it, as if the comment was intentioned FOR THEM when they have NO legitimate reason to do so, as this is a place RUN BY THE COMPANY for people to come and give their feedback ostensibly to the company, good and bad.

i understand that many people here see themselves as "part of it" and no doubt they absolutely are. i realize they contribute code and all that. but its still unrealistic and simply unwarranted for them to get upset by someones expression of frustration with slim stuff. thats my take and i'm sticking to it.

i think i've now made all my points repeatedly, this is getting pretty circular, and clearly, Sean and SD will do what they think best as is their right, (although i look at "the majority rationale" skeptically as that could be mob rule) so i'm gonna try to bow out.

haunyack
2008-02-12, 22:29
well, apparently YOU do.

i for one, don't share your level of sensitivity. i might call it hyper. is that rude of me?

my basic premise, just to restate, is that different folks have different standards, and i have all too often seen people, especially newbies, tarred and feathered here for what i consider to be legit criticsm based in facts or their legit experiences.

to codify these extremely broad rules (to satisfy subjective sensitivities) while seemingly on the surface appears reasonable; is ultimately i believe going to lead to groupthink atta-boys and insulates people from not only criticism, but new ideas, or even fundamental seismic shifts in paradigm and approach.

of course a balance is needed, but spam is in fact, narrowly defined, as is profanity. the mods handle those two things with no complaint from anyone i see. flaming is more broad, but again i see no complaints about how mods handle that as well.

the main problem as i see it, is one person says something critical, such as "SS sucks" and a whole lot of people take personal umbrage to it, as if the comment was intentioned FOR THEM when they have NO legitimate reason to do so, as this is a place RUN BY THE COMPANY for people to come and give their feedback ostensibly to the company, good and bad.

i understand that many people here see themselves as "part of it" and no doubt they absolutely are. i realize they contribute code and all that. but its still unrealistic and simply unwarranted for them to get upset by someones expression of frustration with slim stuff. thats my take and i'm sticking to it.

i think i've now made all my points repeatedly, this is getting pretty circular, and clearly, Sean and SD will do what they think best as is their right, (although i look at "the majority rationale" skeptically as that could be mob rule) so i'm gonna try to bow out.

MrSinatra,

Hear hear!
As a couple of guns are pointed at me as of late, I'll duck and chew some jerky for a spell.

.

peejay
2008-02-12, 23:19
I guess the fact that every contributor to this thread being a regular contributor points to an unlikely downward trend of this sort of thing, given most offenders in this vein tend to be infrequent posters. I do notice that thread moderators on other forums tend to be more proactive about this sort of thing. Perhaps more intervention is the key here...

Furthermore, I think we should ban the use of the word 'proselytize'.....
:-)

smc2911
2008-02-12, 23:59
Furthermore, I think we should ban the use of the word 'proselytize'.....
:-)That'll be me. Sorry. Can I use "evangelize"?

peejay
2008-02-13, 00:03
That'll be me. Sorry. Can I use "evangelize"?

No worries....

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-13, 10:19
Whatever happened to being polite?

If you were invited in to someone's home, would you tell them "your curtains suck" or "the renovations you're undertaking are a poorly implemented pipe dream"?

No. That would be rude.

Then why is it acceptable here?

Constructive criticism is fine and, in fact, very helpful. "Have you considered xx colour drapes here?" or "why don't you try this in your renovation?"

This is the "home" of Logitech SMS, formerly Slim Devices. Isn't it bad form to insult the product on the very forums hosted for free by the company? Sure seems that way to me, but I guess I'm alone on this one. Perhaps my parents raised me to be more polite than most.

It's even more important to be polite here because you're posting to the very people who can help you, and these people are on a totally voluntary basis - they are under no obligation to help you, you should convince them to help you by simple courtesy.

In such situations, I've often thought of a boilerplate response:


Dear user: thank you for posting on this forum.

I have an idea regarding the solution to your problem, but given your attitude I'm not sure it would satisfy you. Therefore I'll let you vent, and when you are ready to carry out some troubleshooting to solve your problem, I may contribute further.

Or I might not if you insist on insulting me by insulting a product I like very much.

It's up to you.

I'm sure that would go over like a lead baloon and antagonize the poster further, but at present I just don't contribute at all to such threads and I bet there are others like me. Perhaps if the OP knew they weren't getting any help because of how they're treating the volunteers here they might change their attitude.

I do see this a whole lot more in society in general - yelling or complaining to grocery clerks, for example, who can't change anything. It's quite sad.

MuckleEck
2008-02-13, 10:24
Well said Mark......

slimpy
2008-02-13, 10:58
Thanks Mark, my sentiments exactly.

-s.

jonheal
2008-02-13, 11:16
Whatever happened to being polite?
Because some folks feel they're above it, and there's probably not a whole lot that can be done about it. There will always be kind, thoughtful types. And there will always be ... other types.

Siduhe
2008-02-13, 11:28
Thirded.

Mark, I believe I must have been channelling (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=268400&highlight=paraphrasing#post268400) you/one of your posts yesterday...

I was thinking we might do something more along the lines of the Sean-Adams-Response-O-Matic..

kdf
2008-02-13, 11:36
>
> contribute at all to such
> threads and I bet there are others like me.

Count on it. It isn't just limited to forum threads. What motivation is
there to give free time testing, debugging, or writing for someone else's
benefit when it's just for continued abuse. I can certainly understand
the stance of those who prefer to use that time for their own projects
instead.

-kdf

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-13, 11:53
Thanks for the comments everyone.


Because some folks feel they're above it, and there's probably not a whole lot that can be done about it. There will always be kind, thoughtful types. And there will always be ... other types.

Hopefully it will become evident that the other types aren't getting the results they had hoped?

I would think that would be true of life in general, these people will only get help if someone is forced to help them - that given the choice, people won't help rude or ignorant people. I certainly wouldn't.


Mark, I believe I must have been channelling (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=268400&highlight=paraphrasing#post268400) you/one of your posts yesterday...

I did see that post and commented on it. I wasn't specifically thinking about it but it must have stuck in my mind!


I was thinking we might do something more along the lines of the Sean-Adams-Response-O-Matic..

Oh that's a good one!


Dear user: thank you for posting on the forum.

I have an idea that may help you, but I won't post it because:

[ ] it's been answered 5 times today already
[ ] you are just venting and don't actually want help
[ ] you are insulting and I would rather not help you
[ ] you have behaved poorly with crude language
[ ] you have been rude with someone who was just trying to help you
[ ] you think you know all the answers already and that everyone else has it wrong
[ ] you are unwilling to provide any information to help us help you
[ ] you are unwilling to go to any effort to help yourself and would rather have everything done for you
[ ] you just don't get it despite several careful explanations
[ ] you are not reading the responses to your problem carefully enough
[ ] you are refusing to carry out troubleshooting actions others have requested
[ ] you would rather just fight
[ ] you will not accept that this is just the way the software works and insist it should be changed immediately to suit you
[ ] you continue to exhibit a victim mentality

Robin Bowes
2008-02-13, 13:39
JimC wrote:
> This thread has been closed by a moderator for one of the following
> reasons:
>
> * Profanity: This post contains expletives or vulgar language. Please
>
> post in more friendly manner.
>
> * Personal attack: Insults or rude ad hominem arguments directed at
> another member are not permitted.
>
> * Troll / Flamebait: This post is worded in such a way as to evoke an
>
> emotional response, rather than to start a constructive dialogue.
>
> * Inappropriate subject: Please choose a non-inflammatory subject line
>
> which actually describes the subject matter of the thread.
>
> * Illegal content: This thread contains legally prohibited or
> copyrighted material.
>
>
> Please do your part to keep these forums on-topic, friendly, and
> helpful to all members.

Thanks Jim.

Ooops, did I just post to a closed thread? ;)

R.

JimC
2008-02-13, 18:39
We looked at the value of this thread, versus the one post that was in violation, and opted to reopen the thread and simply remove the offending post. It seemed a bit harsh to close the thread for one post that needed to be removed.

We'll get better at this.


-=> Jim

Khuli
2008-02-14, 02:31
Is there any merit in the possibility of users here being able to 'Rate' another user, or a thread, and after a suitably poor rating the thread gets automatically locked, or the user gets some kind of penalty? Perhaps people with a higher rating have more weight when voting, and people with a poor rating cannot vote at all.

I appreciate that for the few casual posters who seem particularly prone to flaming it won't make a lot of difference, but the risks/rewards of long-term posters might be better served? Just a thought.

P.S. Ah, too late.. I see moderation is already in force

gw43
2008-02-14, 06:24
London's Burning - The Clash?
Fire - Arthur Brown?
Burn - Deep Purple?
Disco Inferno - The Tramps?

Towering Inferno?
Blazing Saddles?
Backdraft?

Fireman Sam?

Are any of these forbidden - or have I missed the point?

I'll get my coat!

MuckleEck
2008-02-14, 06:32
Is that a white coat?

pfarrell
2008-02-14, 06:59
Khuli wrote:
> Is there any merit in the possibility of users here being able to 'Rate'
> another user, or a thread, and after a suitably poor rating the thread
> gets automatically locked, or the user gets some kind of penalty?
> Perhaps people with a higher rating have more weight when voting, and
> people with a poor rating cannot vote at all.

I also thought of that, some other forums that I frequent have
'reputation' systems, and vBulletin (the application that these forums
use) has support.

But reputations and warnings are not a complete solution for a couple of
reasons:

1) you need moderation anyway.
2) reputations can get abused. Note that eBay is making radical changes
to its reputation system because of serious abuse.

I don't know enough about this space to make technical recommendations
to the LogiTech folks. I'm all for things that automate or lighten the
moderators workload. But I think in the end, the moderator has to be a
smart human.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

juniper
2008-02-14, 08:50
I like this forum very much. I have received lots of helpful patient advice and sometimes when I have felt brave enough contributed some ideas, help myself. I have no personal experience of being flamed, trolled, nor have I seen any instance of it. That maybe is because the threads I follow do not attract that type of abuse.

I am however worried with the idea of moderation because of the risk that it it could be perceived as a form of control by the "authorities" in this case Logitech.

It appears to be a bit sledgehammer to crack a "nut", and lock down a really useful thread, which may have been running for some time. Surely it is better to remove an offensive post, if more than n members have complained, as an alternative to a moderator locking down a thread which they perceive to be going "inflammatory".

Other alternative approaches to the problem have also been proposed in this thread. Is there any way that we the members / peers could vote on what we feel to be the most appropriate way of dealing with the problem. We are all grown ups and members of this SB community.