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slwiser
2008-02-10, 05:14
I have done everything I can think of to get my SB working so that it does not stop randomly on the wireless end. All I want is a simple feed that is reliable and the SB3 is not. A simple stable feed that where I can listen without having to keep it working by doing resets of the audio chip, resets to factory settings and reboots. Apparently this is just to much to ask from the unit as designed.

I have deleted almost every plug-in.

They are no other wireless signals going on right now in my area so there is no interference. I am up early and no one in the house or neighborhood this is not the reason for the unit stopping. Therefore, it must be the unit or the fault in the design of the music streamer called Squeezebox. Interferences is not the issue. I get full network feed up to 4000 when tested. Signals levels jump between 60 and 85% so this should be no problem.

Squeezebox support does not have a clue as to my problem. They just keep sending me emails asking me that if I don't respond then they will assume my issue is fixed. I just keep on saying it is broken and we are into an infinite loop on the support. So Logitech support is of not help. So I come here again.

I unplug the unit to reboot before I start a session only to have it stop before the end of the first album.

This is the worst problem.

Another problem is the buffering where when I first start the unit is couch's a bit before is stabilizes.

Is the Squeezebox ideal just a pipe dream or is there another vendor's music streamer that works?

smc2911
2008-02-10, 05:20
Do you have the same problems if you connect the SB to your router with an ether net cable? Wifi is a remarkably troublesome protocol, with a lot of variation in performance/behaviour across different makes of router (and SB has to try an accommodate as many of these as possible). Is your router in this list: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?RouterStatus

Are you using WEP or WPA?

I know I'm just posing questions not providing answers, but when I first got my SB a couple of years ago, I had wireless problems, changed my router an it's been smooth sailing ever since.

bpa
2008-02-10, 05:26
Did you test with a wired connection to confirm the problem is with the wifi and not the server ?

slwiser
2008-02-10, 05:27
Do you have the same problems if you connect the SB to your router with an ether net cable? Wifi is a remarkably troublesome protocol, with a lot of variation in performance/behaviour across different makes of router (and SB has to try an accommodate as many of these as possible). Is your router in this list: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?RouterStatus

Are you using WEP or WPA?

I know I'm just posing questions not providing answers, but when I first got my SB a couple of years ago, I had wireless problems, changed my router an it's been smooth sailing ever since.

Pardon me for giving you such a frustrated response to telling me to wire my wireless device up to get it working. BUT: This is a stupid response and one I have heard before to have to connect a wireless device wired to make it work.

Seems like it is always someone else's fault. I have a Lynksys WRT45GS working with version 4.70.6 firmware. I have upgraded the SB3 firmware to 86. I am using the new SqueezeCenter server..this is one of my attempts to fix this. Nothing else has issues with the wireless feed from this unit. WPA TRIP is being used.

bpa
2008-02-10, 05:30
Connection with a wire is only a test to isolate the problem - it is not the long term solution.

Some servers (i.e. NAS) are underpowered when user have formats that need transcoding and so you get a stop/start playing.

slwiser
2008-02-10, 05:38
Connection with a wire is only a test to isolate the problem - it is not the long term solution.

Some servers (i.e. NAS) are underpowered when user have formats that need transcoding and so you get a stop/start playing.

I did not understand this post. What is NAS? Why is transcoding needed when I use native format for the SB3? I am feeding directly off my computer into my network to be feed wirelessly.

Squeezebox and Logitech should provide an appropriate router with purchase if it is so fickled.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-10, 05:41
For heavens sake calm down.
We are trying to help. The SB is almost certainly NOT the problem.
Have you run the network test? What bandwidth are you getting?

bpa
2008-02-10, 05:43
Why is transcoding needed when I use native format for the SB3?

You never said what you were using - so all we can do is guess what may be a problem. For examp[le although WMA is supported it is only the lossy version, if you are using WMA lossless then transcoding is needed.

How about giving some information about your system (OS, Slimserv version), file formats and network topology (e.g. wireless between router and server), and some suggestions may be made.

slwiser
2008-02-10, 05:47
For heavens sake calm down.
We are trying to help. The SB is almost certainly NOT the problem.
Have you run the network test? What bandwidth are you getting?

4000 at 100% then it starts down below 100%.

Signal strength between 85 an 60%.

20 feet away from router.

FLAC files.

I have a Lynksys WRT45GS working with version 4.70.6 firmware. I have upgraded the SB3 firmware to 86. I am using the new SqueezeCenter server..this is one of my attempts to fix this. Nothing else has issues with the wireless feed from this unit.

WPA TRIP is being used.

Wired between computer server and router.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-10, 06:03
OK good. Sounds like the network is basically OK.
What about the server PC? any sign of CPU spikes?

Phil Leigh
2008-02-10, 06:10
Actually, before we go any further you need to eliminate the wi-fi completely from being the problem. Bear in mind that wi-fi is about as flaky as technology gets right now!

Can you wire the SB directly to the server and see if it works fine - just as a test. If this works then the wi-fi (or router) IS the problem. If it doesn't, then we need to look at the server PC or the overall TCP IP network config. Can you check the MAC address of the SB (the one it thinks it has now - NOT the one printed on the SB itself) and make sure it is not the same as anything else on your network?

Mnyb
2008-02-10, 06:12
I had problems for months with 6.5.4 it never ran stable on my WIN XP machine.

I realy tried everything regards network.

The support is parroting the "it is your network mantra for about 4 weeks before you get anywhere"

My remedy in the end was:

In order of importance

SC7.0 (uppgrade to latest if yours is a couple of weeks old)

Do not use Norton (uninstall that crap)



To compare my wifi is set upp like this (this was not a problembut maybe usefull info):

Fixed IP (no dhcp)

WPA2-PSK [AES] option in the netgear router.

channel 6 in the netgear router.

g only option in the netgear router.

"Disable Advanced 108Mbps Features"
"Disable eXtended Range(XR) Feature"
"Dsiable SSID Broadcast"
I also filtered the Wifi to only accept my SB3's MAC adress

Only SPI firewall running in router, no content filtering

furthermore give the following applications unrestricted access trough your firewall (maybe only trough specific ports, but it's easier this way):

SqueezeTray.exe
Squeezecanter.exe
scanner.exe

Some Firewall ned settings to aviod scanning the MySQL files (search the forum, for details)

chers
Mikael

PS can we have an officiall note in the wiki that Norton is not to be used with SS & SC it is clearly the case ? Just say soo and avoid a lot off user frustration.

mapatton
2008-02-10, 06:13
4000 at 100% then it starts down below 100%.

Signal strength between 85 an 60%.

20 feet away from router.

FLAC files.

I have a Lynksys WRT45GS working with version 4.70.6 firmware. I have upgraded the SB3 firmware to 86. I am using the new SqueezeCenter server..this is one of my attempts to fix this. Nothing else has issues with the wireless feed from this unit.

WPA TRIP is being used.

Wired between computer server and router.

This most likely will not be a SB3 issue, but something else, most likely in your wireless network.

I suggest this as there are many here that do not have dropouts on wireless.

You have received some good things to look at so far.

I can say my furthest SB3 is pretty much always at 70-85% wireless strength and I have yet to experience a dropout; so I do not think that is the cause of your issues alone.

Curious, is the computer running your server software dedicated, or also functioning as your normal computer? It might be good to see what may be taking up some cycles on it. Also, what else may be on your wireless at the same time?

I have had up to 5 items (2 SB3s and 3 computers) on wireless at the same time, and didn't have any issues. Now streaming over the internet was a different story. With 2 softsservers going at work, if my daughter is serving up things on a sharesite, I have issues then due to upload bandwidth. Put a stop to that :)

slwiser
2008-02-10, 06:23
OK good. Sounds like the network is basically OK.
What about the server PC? any sign of CPU spikes?

Intel duo-core running 2.4 gHz with 4 gigs of main memory where only 3.2 is usable. Dell XPS 210 computer. 500 GB internal hard drive where files are located. No indication of spikes on the core. I keep task manager open for monitoring my system operation. Norton is not used.

autopilot
2008-02-10, 06:27
Delete me.

slwiser
2008-02-10, 06:27
Summary so far is that I have a whole lot more to look at than the support ever attempted to suggest. It seems that most of the things that I have done are in line with what has been suggested. I just need to go through them more closely to see if anything else is in these post to check on that I have not done.

Thanks and if anyone has anymore ideals please post them.

slwiser
2008-02-10, 06:31
Personally, i dont know why people bother to help people that would write a title like that and respond to peoples offer of help in such a manor. The 'most people have no problems, but i do so therefore the product sucks' attitude and just flipping on people that try and help does not endear people to help you solve your problem - you would probably have twice as many people help by now. most problems reported on here turn out to not be directly related to the SB3, but poor routers etc. If you can get over the fact that the SB3 must be flawed, you will move more quickly in the direction of a solution. Otherwise, put it on eBay.

It is just that the solution is always someone else's problem and not what is not working....this is frustration at work for my part for sure. This has been going on for a long time. I got my unit back in Nov and have yet to have a stable SB.

The almost mythical working SB is my goal...it seems like "everyone" has no problems apparently.

Answer me this: Is it possible to setup a fixed IP for SB and let everything else float? Or does this mean that I have to reconfigure all my wireless devices to be fixed it I go this way?

bpa
2008-02-10, 06:56
You can set a fixed IP address and if it outside the range of your DHCP server, then it will not affect the other wireless devices.

Personally, I think you should try the wired SB test first to isolate the problem to wifi or not. All you need to do is carry SB3 to the router, wire it in and use earphones in the headphone socket (or look at Analyser display) to see if the stream is still playing.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-10, 06:59
It is just that the solution is always someone else's problem and not what is not working....this is frustration at work for my part for sure. This has been going on for a long time. I got my unit back in Nov and have yet to have a stable SB.

The almost mythical working SB is my goal...it seems like "everyone" has no problems apparently.

Answer me this: Is it possible to setup a fixed IP for SB and let everything else float? Or does this mean that I have to reconfigure all my wireless devices to be fixed it I go this way?

yes that is what I do - fixed ip for the sb and the server, DHCP for everything else. I find this avoids some problems.

Your router will let you set the DHCP range - just set the sb and server outside of the DHCP range. You shopuld do this before we go any further.

bobkoure
2008-02-10, 07:02
Answer me this: Is it possible to setup a fixed IP for SB and let everything else float?
Absolutely.
Assuming your W45G is your DHCP server, just look at that box to see what range the server is assigning to DHCP clients.
Also assuming a "class C" network (192.168.1.NNN) for instance, be sure to avoid NNN.NNN.NNN.1 (probably used by the router itself) and NNN.NNN.NNN.255 (broadcast).

An alternate way to assign a fixed address is to set the DHCP server to "reserve" an address for a particular address (the DHCP server would use the MAC address for this).

I basically do this for everything that's regularly on any network I work on as it makes some other things I do lots easier, which, hopefully, aren't relevant here.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-10, 07:03
What devices do you have apart from the SB, Router and Server PC?
is ANYTHING else connected to your network?

peter
2008-02-10, 07:45
slwiser wrote:
> Is the Squeezebox ideal just a pipe dream or is there another vendor's
> music streamer that works?
>

I wish some of the forum users would stop using immature inflammatory
topic titles...

Regards,
Peter

slwiser
2008-02-10, 08:06
slwiser wrote:
> Is the Squeezebox ideal just a pipe dream or is there another vendor's
> music streamer that works?
>

I wish some of the forum users would stop using immature inflammatory
topic titles...

Regards,
Peter

Moderator just remove the last part of that title if this is offensive....

I am going to have to figure out how to mix the fix and floating IPs...

slwiser
2008-02-10, 08:29
just set the sb and server outside of the DHCP range.

Yes, my DHCP server has a range reserved already and it would be easy to select something outside that range BUT:

How is this done? setting the SB IP address.

I checked in SqueezeCenter and found no place for this option.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-10, 09:07
Yes, my DHCP server has a range reserved already and it would be easy to select something outside that range BUT:

How is this done? setting the SB IP address.

I checked in SqueezeCenter and found no place for this option.

It's not in SC...do it on the player settings via the remote

MuckleEck
2008-02-10, 09:24
yes that is what I do - fixed ip for the sb and the server, DHCP for everything else. I find this avoids some problems.

Your router will let you set the DHCP range - just set the sb and server outside of the DHCP range. You shopuld do this before we go any further.

I run DHCP without any issues but MAC lock the IP addresses in my router (I use a Draytek one so don't knhow whether MAC locking is available) this is similar to using fixed IP but slightly easier to implement!

Craig
2008-02-10, 09:39
Why bother reconfiguring the whole network?, just do the cable test as others have suggested then people will be able to help you get it working.

Craig

bobkoure
2008-02-10, 09:41
I'm pretty sure you're talking about DHCP reservations.

Go into your W45 with your browser - just put the address of the W in your browser address bar. It's probably 192.168.0.1 or 192.168.1.1.
You will be asked for a password. Being a Linksys, the default is probably admin/admin or sometimes leave the user name blank and "admin" for a password.
Often, you cannot make administrative changes unless you are "hardwired" to the router (i.e. no changes over wireless)
Go through the various menus, looking for DHCP. You should be able to see all the current assigned addresses (AKA "leases"). Very likely in that same area is some section that will let you "assign" or "reserve" an address.

Beware any section that says "MAC lock" or even "lock" as, in the Linksys world (and in the other firewalls/routers I'm familiar with) this typically is a way of locking a machine with a particular MAC address out.

If you get stuck, follow up or email me bob at koure dot org.

jsprag
2008-02-10, 09:43
They are no other wireless signals going on right now in my area so there is no interference. I am up early and no one in the house or neighborhood this is not the reason for the unit stopping. Therefore, it must be the unit or the fault in the design of the music streamer called Squeezebox. Interferences is not the issue. I get full network feed up to 4000 when tested. Signals levels jump between 60 and 85% so this should be no problem.

Wireless network interference can come from more than just other wireless networks. Microwaves and cordless phones are particularly troublesome.

I would also recommend first trying to connect using the ethernet cable to determine if the problem is in your connection. If it is, then add changing the wireless channel to your troubleshooting plan.

gbruzzo
2008-02-10, 11:15
"Poorly implemented pipe dream" is a little extreme...

jsprag
2008-02-10, 11:45
I wish some of the forum users would stop using immature inflammatory
topic titles...

Regards,
Peter

Now that's a pipe dream....

mapatton
2008-02-10, 12:47
It is just that the solution is always someone else's problem and not what is not working....this is frustration at work for my part for sure. This has been going on for a long time. I got my unit back in Nov and have yet to have a stable SB.

The almost mythical working SB is my goal...it seems like "everyone" has no problems apparently.

Answer me this: Is it possible to setup a fixed IP for SB and let everything else float? Or does this mean that I have to reconfigure all my wireless devices to be fixed it I go this way?

I would presume yes, but also how about your server? I had to assign a specific IP to my server so DYNDNS would always to it for streaming over the internet.

slwiser
2008-02-10, 16:50
It's not in SC...do it on the player settings via the remote

Will the router automatically find the SQ with the new IP this way? I thought the router controlled access not the device itself?

radish
2008-02-10, 22:18
Will the router automatically find the SQ with the new IP this way? I thought the router controlled access not the device itself?

On a local network the router isn't doing anything, the devices are responsible for knowing their own IP addresses and communicating with each other. You could set all the IPs manually and not even have a router, just a dumb switch, and it would all work fine (and that's how we used to do it!). DHCP makes things easier to manage by allowing a central device (in this case your router, but it doesn't have to be) to dish out IP addresses to anything that needs one. When it comes to actual communication it doesn't matter where the IP came from, just that it's unique.

m1abrams
2008-02-11, 06:37
How has your (OP) hunt for a solution come. Have you tried connecting the SB3 via wired yet?

I understand your frustration with people immediately blaming something else. However this is a complex system and many things can cause it issues and all anyone here is trying to do is isolate where the problem is coming from. The first and easiest thing to do is see if it is a wireless issue. And also in most of our experiences it is the wireless so it is best to eliminate that first. If have no issues once the SB3 is connected via wire then we know the issue is in the wireless and can then work to assist solving the wireless issue so that you can use your device the way you want. If it still has issues when connected via wire then most will say to look into an issue on the server side.

You have a number of people here trying to help you even though you started off in a very poor manner, that should give you some idea of the level of satisfaction that many users have with this device. Note these are mostly if not all USERS not employees of Slimdevices. I have been a satisfied customer for over 5 years, however I know it can be a little tricky getting everything needed to play nice so would love to assist you.

spooky
2008-02-11, 09:41
In my unexperienced opinion
most all the posters are giving good advice
especially giving the unit a fixed ip
and the initiator of the thread is also correct
these units are buggy!!
If you haven't tried it yet; do a "hard" reset:
unplug the unit and press the plus(+) button on the remote
while plugging it back in
This works for me whenever the unit gets buggy
usually after a firmware upgrade

mik63
2008-02-11, 16:07
I have had the same situation for months and no serious attempt from Logitech to troubleshoot it.

There is no reason why a wireless SB3 that is 20ft. from the server in the same room, away from any microwave or wireless phone, on a wireless channel that no other Wifi are using in or around your house, while nobody else is using the wireless but the SB3, with the buffer 100% full and 90% wireless signal should have ANY stuttering problems!! And yet it does.

In addition to this, mine reboots randomly out of nowhere, in the middle of a song.

My impression at this point is that some network packets have something inside that make the SB3 network stack go crazy...
I am not an expert, but if there are some unique differences between wireless and wired network packets, this would explain why we only see this using wireless.

slwiser
2008-02-11, 16:11
In my unexperienced opinion
most all the posters are giving good advice
especially giving the unit a fixed ip
and the initiator of the thread is also correct
these units are buggy!!
If you haven't tried it yet; do a "hard" reset:
unplug the unit and press the plus(+) button on the remote
while plugging it back in
This works for me whenever the unit gets buggy
usually after a firmware upgrade

I have performed this reset many times to reset the audio chip. I also have preformed the factory reset at least once. Now I start a session from the start with a fully rebooted SB. Rebooting by unplugging and re-inserting the power cable.

I am going to have to do the IP thing I think. I have not done that yet. Thats I probably have a particular unit that is a bit more frustrating than others.

I just implemented fixed IP so I will report back about what happens.

Thanks everyone for you help....

radish
2008-02-11, 16:24
There is no reason why a wireless SB3 that is 20ft. from the server in the same room, away from any microwave or wireless phone, on a wireless channel that no other Wifi are using in or around your house, while nobody else is using the wireless but the SB3, with the buffer 100% full and 90% wireless signal should have ANY stuttering problems!! And yet it does.

If you are getting stuttering when the buffer is at 100% it's nothing to do with the network, wireless or otherwise. You have another problem, and to be honest it's not one I've ever seen before. Do you get the stutters at the same point on tracks? The only thing I can possibly think of is file corruption.

I'll repeat (again) what many others have said on this thread and others - wireless networking is a messy, messy thing. It's a miracle it works at all! The first troubleshooting with any wireless device should always be to try it with a cable. Then, depending on the results, troubleshooting can continue in the right direction.

radish
2008-02-11, 16:25
I am going to have to do the IP thing I think. I have not done that yet.

I may have missed your post, in which case I apologise. But have you tried it with a cable?

slwiser
2008-02-11, 17:03
If you are getting stuttering when the buffer is at 100% it's nothing to do with the network, wireless or otherwise. You have another problem, and to be honest it's not one I've ever seen before. Do you get the stutters at the same point on tracks? The only thing I can possibly think of is file corruption.

I'll repeat (again) what many others have said on this thread and others - wireless networking is a messy, messy thing. It's a miracle it works at all! The first troubleshooting with any wireless device should always be to try it with a cable. Then, depending on the results, troubleshooting can continue in the right direction.

I have gotten what I would call stuttering on startup at times for between 15 to 30 seconds then it clears up. No this is more random than any particular track.

Right now I am going fine after doing the fixed IP noted a couple of posts above.

JimC
2008-02-11, 17:16
I have had the same situation for months and no serious attempt from Logitech to troubleshoot it.


Have you reported this to our Technical Support group, either by phone or email? If you have, please provide me with the number(s) for your support ticket and I'll have someone look into it for you.

If you haven't worked with our Technical Support group, please do. This forum isn't used for official technical support, though the community does a great job as well.


-=> Jim

lhmperth
2008-02-11, 19:38
There is no reason why a wireless SB3 that is 20ft. from the server in the same room, away from any microwave or wireless phone, on a wireless channel that no other Wifi are using in or around your house, while nobody else is using the wireless but the SB3, with the buffer 100% full and 90% wireless signal should have ANY stuttering problems!! And yet it does.

And that is the wonderful world of wireless! The wireless on my laptop will drop out at random even when I'm sitting a few metres from the router.

As a number of people have suggested, do the very simple test of moving your SB3 next to your router, connect it by wire and see if you still have a problem. This should have been your first test. If the problem goes away, we know it is a wireless problem and can attempt to fix it. If you still have a problem, you can stop wasting your time on finding a wireless fix, as the problem lies elsewhere.

A number of people of suggested this very simple step. You seem to be ignoring this repeatedly. I don't know why you won't listen to those people who are genuinely trying to help you.

I suspect this is the first thing support told you too and they probably would give up if you don't follow their requests.

pfarrell
2008-02-11, 19:47
mik63 wrote:
> There is no reason why a wireless SB3 that is 20ft. from the server in
> the same room, away from any microwave or wireless phone, on a wireless
> channel that no other Wifi are using in or around your house

Have you run kismet on your network? Grantd, I'd just hook up an
ethernet cable as a first test.

Kismet or other WiFi sniffers will tell you what is really in the air.
I can see ten WiFi networks from my living room, several are hundreds of
yards away. (I live in a single family house in an area of 1/4 acre lots).


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

slwiser
2008-02-12, 15:59
So far since last nights setting the IP as FIXED may have taken care of most of my real issues.

I will continue to update this thread if anything more occurs to undermine this fix.

Thanks for all your help..

spooky
2008-02-13, 04:08
So far since last nights setting the IP as FIXED may have taken care of most of my real issues.

I will continue to update this thread if anything more occurs to undermine this fix.

Thanks for all your help..
nice!!!
:)

slwiser
2008-02-13, 15:57
This morning when I got up after letting it play all night it was locked up again. This afternoon I had to do the audio chip reset to get it working. From the SqueezeCenter it appeared to go up about 3 seconds from where it was locked and return to that time point on the track. The SB3 was lock up tight and I could not get access to anything at that time.

It sure would be nice if they had an easier method to reboot and reset without having to plug in with one hand while holding the remote with the other hand in the proper manner.

Maybe I can get an RMA and return this unit and get another one since no one else has ever had any problems before.

dcote
2008-02-14, 02:53
hi slwiser!

interesting issue you are describing here. i have two SB3s and they also both suffer from random stops while playing. i am curious if we have similar problems and maybe we can find commonalities?

first, a description of my setup:
-> WLAN g
-> slimserver 6.5.5 (waiting for SC7 release)
-> PIII, 700MHz, 1GB RAM
-> virusscanner active (not norton)
-> both SBs have at least 60% sig. strength
-> network/bandwidth test checks out to max with no problems
-> all other wlan devices (2 laptops, 1 PDA, 1 DVD player via e-net/wlan bridge) work with no problems whatsoever
-> around 9.000 tracks in library

my symptoms:
-> SB3 will simply stop playing for no apparent reason. no specific track/audioformat/track sequence seems to be reproduceable. the only thing which is reproduceable, is that is occurs WAY more often when the SBs are synched. altho it does happen when not synched, too.
-> the other day, i *finally* got an error message (of sorts): "out of decoder RAM" (or was it memory?). the message was strangely garbled on the display as if there were pixel-errors. i think this is the first time i actually saw the message, because i happened to be watching the SB when it happened.
-> after that, SB will react to the remote, but it will not produce sound. (seems like the DSP/DAC crashed, but the rest is still ok) only unplugging the unit will reset it.
-> it only seems to happen when i play mixed audio formats, in my case: vorbis + mp3.
-> when the crash occurs, the SBs display is not showing what is being played - it is one or two tracks ahead (!?) of the the track that was being played. as if slimservr and SB have lost synch at some point...
-> when synched, the stops will occur between every 5 minutes (track to track) or sometimes play for hours before crashing. when unsynched, it usually takes some hours to happen. almost as if two synched players cause it to happen double as often as one!

what i have tried so far (with no results to speak of):
-> re-played the same playlist again, to see if SB will crash on the same track.
-> used huge playlists (~700 tracks) vs. small ones (~30 tracks). as a matter of fact, the small playlists will play once or even twice, only to crash the player on the third time round.
-> stopped just about all the other software running on my server
-> exempted slimserver from my virusscanner.
-> fixed IP

my suspicion:
-> i have seen that error message before (out of decoder RAM), in context with the vorbis decoder crashing on certain internet radio stations: http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4418
since i use vorbis a *lot*, this seems related.


@slwiser (or anyone else ;-): how much of this sounds familiar to you?

leuzi
2008-02-14, 03:51
my suspicion:
-> i have seen that error message before (out of decoder RAM), in context with the vorbis decoder crashing on certain internet radio stations: http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4418
since i use vorbis a *lot*, this seems related.

I have seen the out of memory error, too, but _only_ when playing a certain Ogg Vorbis radio stream. I have most of my files encoded in Ogg Vorbis, but I have never seen said error when playing tracks from my local SqueezeCenter.

Cheers,
Christoph

dcote
2008-02-14, 05:39
hi leuzi!

me neither, until a few days ago.

would you mind decribing a bit more of your setup?
-> wired? wireless?
-> common vorbis bitrates/q-levels and encoders you use?
-> mixed playlists? (mp3/vorbis/flac) how large are they typically?
-> do you use saved playlists or create them as needed manually?
-> do you let your SB play for hours at a time from a huge playlist or manually keep changing the music?

btw. - i am currently trying the SBs wired and synched. (was a P.I.T.A. to un-install them from their audio setups!) just a couple of minutes ago, they stopped at the end of a song. display said "now playing" but they weren't. at least they didnt freeze this time (odd, that) - i pressed play on the remote and they started up again. re-playing the same tracks was flawless, however...

dcote
2008-02-14, 07:11
just stopped again... :-( same as before.

but this time, the SBs went into zombie mode.

here is more info though:

-> from the corner of my eye, i was watching the screen. buffer fullness went from ~10% (was approaching end of song) immediately to 100% *before* the new song was supposed to start (there still were about 10sec. left to play for the old song)

-> the "now playing" screen is still showing on both SBs and the spectrum analyzer has frozen. i can still scroll through menus, but play will not commence.

-> SB and SS skipped a track completely for no apparent reason, too.

-> when i do press play (on remote or web-interface), i can see the buffer re-filling back to 100% and the "now playing" screen shows the correct track again - but no sound and the now playing progress indicator does not move. so SS is still receiving and responding to commands and even filling the SBs buffers properly.

conclusion so far:
-> i do not have a WLAN problem, this is about something else. the fact that both SBs crash so badly that only a power-down can revive them indicates to me something wrong with the SBs firmware, not with SS, the SB hardware, my network or anything else. i suspect the DSP/DAC firmware.

ps. sorry slwiser if i hijacked your thread! please let me/us know how much of this is familiar! ;-)

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-14, 07:21
dcote:

I remember reading the SB's firmware ogg decoder was a tricky one to make - perhaps there are unresolved issues.

Could you try in Server Settings - File Types to transcode to another format and see if the problem goes away? Make sure the ogg -> ogg (built in) checkbox is UNchecked.

dcote
2008-02-14, 07:36
yeah, i remember reading that, too. that is why i am slightly suspicious of it. ;-)

but maybe unrightly so, because somthing occurred to me: while i understand how a bug in the decoder would cause a stop+crash, it wouldnt explain why the SB *and* SS skip a track every time this happens, would it?

i will try transcoding as soon as i have one more crash - i want to collect more info. will post back.

superpin
2008-02-14, 07:43
Almost scary to read dcote's story, I have the exact same experience with my two SB3's. Next time it happens I will do some more serious research and post the results here (or if there is a bugreport filed?).

dcote
2008-02-14, 08:17
superpin, apart from this bug: http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4418

i was not able to find a similar bug in bugzilla. not surprising tho, because diagnosing a sporadic and non-reproduceable problem like this is a PITA. ;-) i work in IT, and i run as fast as i can whenever i come across problems like these.

today i have some time in the homeoffice tho, so i can do some serious diagnostics.

here is what i will try next:
-> as mark suggested, i will transcode vorbis to mp3 and see if the problm goes away.
if it doesnt -> not a vorbis problem, more likely a problem with the ogg container format not being handled properly by SS, no?
if it does:
-> i will try homogeneous playlists consisting entirely of vorbis or mp3 tracks.

ps. as i am typing this, it happened again. :-( SB just changed the "now playing" screen to another track (new track is displaying in now playing, but the old one is still playing). and sure enough, at the end of the current track, the SBs stop.

new data:
-> rebooted the SBs, resumed playing at the track before the stop. played no problem this time.
-> the progress indicator behaved strangely. it displayed the total time of the track in "now playing", but it stopped at the precise total time of the track that was previously playing. complicated - let me try to explain:

DISPLAY:
now playing: (40 of 765) (**********__________)-3:46
8. the night before - Dessous - gamat 3000

alternating to played time gives me:
now playing: (40 of 765) (**********__________)4:21
8. the night before - Dessous - gamat 3000

alternating to buffer fullness gives me:
now playing: (40 of 765) (********************)100%
8. the night before - Dessous - gamat 3000

it stopped at precisely the total runtime of the *previous* track being played, which was:
Il Cherchio Rosso - Nicola Conte - Bossa Per Due with 4.21 mins playing time...!?

weird: this time, they didnt skip a track, but just went on to the next one in the playlist.

dcote
2008-02-14, 09:29
got some results faster than i thought...

i am transcoding vorbis to flac now - still problems, but slightly different.

after about 10 tracks, "now playing" skipped ahead again as before. but this time the SB's progress indicator has frozen at max:
now playing (51 of 765) (*******************)04:52
6. On the rails....

progress bar is full and time is not moving, BUT it IS playing! (amazing)

ok, now next song: display "now playing" skipped ahead to next track way too early (about 30 sec.).
getting the same symptoms:
now playing (51 of 765) (*******************)05:00
4. Extensions Of Life ....

progress bar is full and time is not moving, BUT it IS playing! (amazing)

ok, next song: display skipped ahead again way too early. and so on and so forth...


it seems as if the vorbis tracks are somehow throwing the SBs and SS out of step. even with transcoding, something goes seriously wrong at some point. frankly speaking, i am starting to think it may not be SBs fault after all, but what SS is feeding it. maybe something wrong with the way SS deals with the ogg-container...?

btw. statistics so far are: 4 stops in ~54 tracks. that is too much and not sporadic anymore. :-(

Mark Lanctot
2008-02-14, 11:57
What ogg encoder are you using?

There are so many out there and so many loose interpretations of the standard that not all encoders work properly with the SB decoder or the program doing the transcoding.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-14, 12:07
The only time my SB has ever displayed this sort of behaviour it turned out to be that one of my audio fles was corrupt - might be worth checking?

slwiser
2008-02-14, 20:21
No I have not had similar experience with error messages that you have.

My problems are very simple...it just stops, sometimes soft, sometimes hard and sometimes very hard. Soft just required me to click the next track. Hard requires and audio chip reset. And very hard requires a complete factory reset.

I upgraded to SqueezeCenter 7.0 and fireware version 86 hoping this would fix it and it has not.

I also did the fixed IP without any real success but it does appear not to stop as quickly now.

Remember one behavior that I noted before is that while it is locked on the computer SqueezeCenter is attempting to send info only to be in a groundhog day loop of about 3-4 seconds at the point of lock-up on whatever track it happened to be at the time. This is not always but something that I have observed.

dcote
2008-02-15, 07:05
hi phil, hi mark!

i have various different vorbis encoders in my library: xiph libvorbis 0.x + 1.x, aotuvb4+5, and gtune3b1+2. just as i have mp3s from various encoders, as well. none of them cause problems on any other playback device, be it software on PC or embedded such as an iriver mp3 player with iriver or rockbox firmware or even my networked DVD player.

gentlemen, while i understand the general principle of only supporting the "official" libvorbis codec, that is not very realistic. after all, slimdevices does support LAME and other "non-standard" mp3 codecs too, right? by that reasoning, we should stop supporting any LAME-encoded mp3 and revert to fraunhofer / thomson encoded mp3 only. ;-)

to eliminate a potential source of trouble (the vorbis decoder in the SB), i have followed marks suggestion of transcoding to flac. but problems still persist:
-> SB display corrupts after a short time: it is out of synch with what is actually playing track and the progress indicator freezes. re-starting playback will fix that for another 10-20 tracks or so, then it happens again. at least, the SB does not "zombie" on me anymore.
-> i left the SBs playing over night, just to see what happens. actually, slimserver utterly crashed. so badly, that i had to reboot my server. the SBs were fine, tho...

in regards to ogg file integrity:
-> all offical xiph tools can decode the files with no problem and other players dont report problems, either. not a single tool has reported a problem with any of my oggs yet, ever.
-> when i replay a file which supposedly caused the crash, or even an entire playlist, it works just fine. there is no indication whatsoever that a specific file or part of a file is causing this. a corrupt file should cause the crash at the same spot every time, shouldnt it?

so far, i think i have to revise my hypothesis:
-> slimserver is having trouble with something in my music repository. this can cause it to send junk to my SBs, which may crash the DSP/DAC. it seems to have something to do with vorbis files, because transcoding them changes the symptoms markedly, but does not make the problem go away.

my next steps:
-> i will test homogeneous playlists of mp3 or vorbis to see what happens.
-> then i will try SC 7 beta.

thanks for your thoughts on this guys, it is driving me nuts. i really appreciate your help!

Phil Leigh
2008-02-15, 07:52
rather than transcoding, try converting them to flac or wav or mp3 and see if the symptoms persist

DanH
2008-02-15, 22:33
I have had my Squeezebox for about a year. It is connected to my router via wi-fi and I am running Slimserver 6.5.4. I have ripped my CD collection as flac format files. For the past month or two it will make a loud pop and freeze at random intervals when playing. I can press play on the remote and it will restart playing the track from the beginning just fine. I have my pc set up to dual boot Windows XP Home or Xandros, which is based on Debian Linux. The only thing I am sure of is this has never happened when running Slimserver under Linux. While it happens about every other day when running under Windows. I wonder if Microsoft has made a change in their many patches that may affect Slimserver performance?

dcote
2008-02-16, 07:12
DanH: sounds like a very plausible explanation to me. i am pretty sure i didnt have this problem in the beginning, either.

Phil: hmmm... i am not sure if that will yield results that are different from simply using regular mp3 files i already have. besides, i wouldnt even know which vorbis files to convert, since i have no conclusive evidence which specific ones are causing this.

new experimental results:

-> playing a purely vorbis playlist *will* cause the stops to occur. sometimes as early as after the 10th song, sometimes as late as after the 40th. re-starting the same playlist from the start never has reproduced the stops at the same position, they occur at seemingly random tracks and positions.

-> the stop is *always* preceeded by a sudden jump or skip one or two tracks ahead in the "now playing" display. slimserver's web-interface skips ahead too!

-> a purely mp3 playlist has been playing for some hours now with no stop.

-> i tried playing purely vorbis UN-synched on one player last night, to see if the problem is connected to the synch function or not. unfortunately, the SB stopped after 11 tracks sometime in the night. :-(


the summary so far:
1. it seems only natively decoded ogg/vorbis files will cause the stops and crashes.
2. the "now playing" display *always" jumps/skips one or two tracks ahead and freezes the progress bar. this applies to the web-interface and the SBs VFD. this happens when natively playing vorbis as well as transcoding to flac.
3. this seems to happen much more often and reliably when synched.
4. transcoding vorbis to flac/mp3 will not crash the SB anymore, but will still cause the "now playing" display to corrupt and in one instance has caused an utter and total slimserver crash.
5. playing native mp3 or flac seems fine (synched and un-synched).

my newest hypothesis: there is something wrong with the ogg container file handling on the slimserver, because eliminating the SB as a problem source through transcoding only altered the symptoms. since the "now playing" display is controlled by slimserver, its corruption also points in that direction. if SS is sending some kind of junk to the SB, then the SB's DSP+DAC crashing may only be a symptom, not the root cause.

i guess there is only one more thing for me to do: try SC7... :-(

Phil Leigh
2008-02-16, 07:19
Could I ask a silly question...why are you using ogg-vorbis?

dcote
2008-02-16, 07:47
hey phil, of course you can! :-)

why do i use vorbis?
1. because i can. the main reason i bought the squeezeboxes is because the feature list says they play vorbis natively.
2. i am too lazy to encode my songs twice - lossless for at home and lossy for on the road. maintaining every track twice is a PITA.
3. some friends of mine and i have ABXed the vorbis files i use (preferrably gtune3b2 encoded @ q6) vs. wav/flac. we could not reliably find differences. as a matter of fact, when we tried to find the version that subjectively sounded best (not which was the original!), the gtune encoded vorbis came out ahead! no joke. we were astounded ourselves.
4. mp3 needs a lot more bits to sound as good, which we also found by ABXing. i would need some HQ LAME @ 256 kbit VBR to compete with vorbis @ q6, which is still ~30% smaller.
5. vorbis is patent-free. i resent the fact that some corporation could nail me for encoding my music in their proprietary format.
6. my portable player supports vorbis, too. so does my GF's ipod, after we installed rockbox on it.
7. my server is completely full of hard disks with no further expansion room. flac would instantly increase my library's size from ~35GB to ~200GB.
8. i use my WLAN for other things sich as mpeg4 playback as well - i need the bandwidth.

Phil Leigh
2008-02-16, 08:09
hey phil, of course you can! :-)

why do i use vorbis?
1. because i can. the main reason i bought the squeezeboxes is because the feature list says they play vorbis natively.
2. i am too lazy to encode my songs twice - lossless for at home and lossy for on the road. maintaining every track twice is a PITA.
3. some friends of mine and i have ABXed the vorbis files i use (preferrably gtune3b2 encoded @ q6) vs. wav/flac. we could not reliably find differences. as a matter of fact, when we tried to find the version that subjectively sounded best (not which was the original!), the gtune encoded vorbis came out ahead! no joke. we were astounded ourselves.
4. mp3 needs a lot more bits to sound as good, which we also found by ABXing. i would need some HQ LAME @ 256 kbit VBR to compete with vorbis @ q6, which is still ~30% smaller.
5. vorbis is patent-free. i resent the fact that some corporation could nail me for encoding my music in their proprietary format.
6. my portable player supports vorbis, too. so does my GF's ipod, after we installed rockbox on it.
7. my server is completely full of hard disks with no further expansion room. flac would instantly increase my library's size from ~35GB to ~200GB.
8. i use my WLAN for other things sich as mpeg4 playback as well - i need the bandwidth.


Ah - I see. All perfectly reasonable. It does seem like you (or rather the SB/SS setup) has an issue with this format that doesn't affect the other formats. Sorry I can't be of any help.
Phil

dcote
2008-02-19, 04:46
ok, no amount of twiddling and tweaking with SS 6.5.5 solved the problem. even unsynched, i was getting stops+crashes when playing ogg/vorbis.

so i took the plunge and installed SC 7 in the feb. 18th build.

firstly, let me say that i am impressed with the improvements. my first brush with SC7 was in dec. 07 and it was a bad one, because the scan wouldnt complete (i waited over two hours) and it seemed *slow*.

this time, it installed perfectly, started up perfectly, scanned perfectly and even seems faster than my old SS 6. :-)

i have been playing ogg/vorbis with SC7 over night now (104 tracks so far) and NO stops or crashes yet! :-D that is a good sign, since SS 6 usually would have produced at least one stop by now.

the only thing i need to do now is get my old amp switches running, but i am trying to get that problem fixed in a different thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=41578

once that is running, i think i am fixed and happy. if SC7 didnt fix the problem after all, i'll be back. ;-)

OzarkSB3
2008-02-19, 19:19
At risk of being another 'me too' post - I was having erratic behavior with my sb3 also running 6.5.4, fw 81 and was told to check the signal strength.

I was having long delays with the remote and it would just shut right off if I tried to SN. I did the re-install fw by holding down the brightness key and everything worked just fine.

HTH
Geoff

eurale
2008-02-28, 03:49
My SB, bought in Germany, worked flawlessly for a couple of years. One day it started to stop in the middle of a song, reboot ... and start the song from the beginning. Just as many other people are talking about. All my IPs are static, I'm using a cable, etc. I didn't try the factory reset that was mentioned in this thread before ... I'll give it a go. I basically haven't used it for 1.5 years because of this problem.

eurale
2008-02-28, 03:51
in the seconds after I pushed "post" ... it just stopped, rebooted ... here we go. I'm running v7 with the latest firmware as of 28th Feb (9pm Aust eastern daylight time).

dcote
2008-03-05, 04:10
hi eurale!

sorry to see my fix (uprading to SC7) didnt fix you. since i did - my problem has gone away. :-)

BUT: i do have a track or two, which are (were) corrupted and would repeatedly and reproduceably cause my SB3 to stop and/or crash at the same track and position. i have located and removed or recoded those "offending" tracks. this has happened with both vorbis and mp3 and has nothing to do with my original problem: vorbis causing crashes while synched.

can you please share some more information about the symptoms?
1. which formats are you playing? (mp3, vorbis, flac, aac, etc)
2. do you have another SB to verify this against?
3. are you getting any error-messages (even briefly)
4. is it reproduceable? (same track, same position, same ripper, same encoder, same playing time, same etc...)
5. does it still happen when you only loop one and the same song over and over?

SoundBoy
2008-03-11, 10:25
Hi Everybody - my SB3 (two of them) have the same freeze behavoir since a few month. It got worse when using SC7. It was minimal with 6.3.1. My both boxes are wired to my WRT54G and a IMac. So it's not a wireless issue here. It happens to me when listening to radio streams via SC or Squeeznetwork (not a computer/firewall issue). However with SC7 it now happens when listening to my music library - it freezes all 30-60 seconds and renders the SB3s useless. I assign dynamic IP addresses.

any help most appreciated... cheers ... and yes I checked in with SD techs and helpdesk.. no luch yet.


in the seconds after I pushed "post" ... it just stopped, rebooted ... here we go. I'm running v7 with the latest firmware as of 28th Feb (9pm Aust eastern daylight time).

SoundBoy
2008-03-11, 10:27
I suspect the SB firmware to be the culprit


I have had my Squeezebox for about a year. It is connected to my router via wi-fi and I am running Slimserver 6.5.4. I have ripped my CD collection as flac format files. For the past month or two it will make a loud pop and freeze at random intervals when playing. I can press play on the remote and it will restart playing the track from the beginning just fine. I have my pc set up to dual boot Windows XP Home or Xandros, which is based on Debian Linux. The only thing I am sure of is this has never happened when running Slimserver under Linux. While it happens about every other day when running under Windows. I wonder if Microsoft has made a change in their many patches that may affect Slimserver performance?

SoundBoy
2008-03-11, 10:30
OK - all superusers reading this.. is there a logfile on the SB3 I can pull down for inspections why I have these zapping freezes?

Cheers


in the seconds after I pushed "post" ... it just stopped, rebooted ... here we go. I'm running v7 with the latest firmware as of 28th Feb (9pm Aust eastern daylight time).

conradbain
2008-03-12, 13:51
problem: mid-song from my mostly-FLAC (some MP3) music library drops out for 10 seconds. stutters a bit. then resumes playing. doesn't happen reliably (i.e. not at the same point in a given song. not when it's an all FLAC playlist. etc.) but does happen every third song (give or take). doesn't happen when listening to internet radio over SqueezeNetwork

my set-up: SC7. firmware 86. music library on wired NAS device. everything else is now wired too (see below). SC7 is playing on a new dual-core Vista machine.

first solution was to wire the player and SqueezeCenter. did that. still stutters mid-song.

next was to set static IPs for player, SC and NAS. still stutters.

finally, try turning off McAffee. still stutters.

conclusions i've reached (maybe wrong, but based on my limited experience) - it's not a wireless issue since i'm now fully wired. it's not the firewall. it's not the library itself. what is it!?

this wasn't an issue when my set-up was wireless with 6.5.4 on my old XP machine. got a new computer and, well, here we are. i'm at a loss. thoughts / help is appreciated!

SoundBoy
2008-03-13, 05:23
It's not just with FLAC files - the same happens to me with MP3 downloads from Amazon music store (256 quality). Apple encoded files are playing fine. I have the same setup as you do, but use a mac as the computer for the SS7. It was not an issue with 6.3-6.5 but with SS7. Seems to be a buggy alpha version that got pushed down on the end user :(


problem: mid-song from my mostly-FLAC (some MP3) music library drops out for 10 seconds. stutters a bit. then resumes playing. doesn't happen reliably (i.e. not at the same point in a given song. not when it's an all FLAC playlist. etc.) but does happen every third song (give or take). doesn't happen when listening to internet radio over SqueezeNetwork

my set-up: SC7. firmware 86. music library on wired NAS device. everything else is now wired too (see below). SC7 is playing on a new dual-core Vista machine.

first solution was to wire the player and SqueezeCenter. did that. still stutters mid-song.

next was to set static IPs for player, SC and NAS. still stutters.

finally, try turning off McAffee. still stutters.

conclusions i've reached (maybe wrong, but based on my limited experience) - it's not a wireless issue since i'm now fully wired. it's not the firewall. it's not the library itself. what is it!?

this wasn't an issue when my set-up was wireless with 6.5.4 on my old XP machine. got a new computer and, well, here we are. i'm at a loss. thoughts / help is appreciated!

conradbain
2008-03-13, 07:29
it's either SC7 or it's the player firmware (ver 86) - based on all the other variables that i think i've controlled (going wired, static IP and disabling the firewall) this is what i've "isolated."

i'd really rather not revert to 6.5.4 - i LOVE the look and feel of SC7.

does anyone have ideas on what might be causing this and what else i could try? i'd read somewhere (and i'm way out of my league here - i don't even know what this means) that there was a RAM leak in SC7. could that be it? are there diagnostics i can / should run to help people smarter than me isolate this problem? has anyone else had a similar issue?

again - it's brief (10 seconds) dropouts where a song will stutter and then start right back up where it left off. it's not catastrophic, just really annoying.

Phil Leigh
2008-03-13, 11:23
it's either SC7 or it's the player firmware (ver 86) - based on all the other variables that i think i've controlled (going wired, static IP and disabling the firewall) this is what i've "isolated."

i'd really rather not revert to 6.5.4 - i LOVE the look and feel of SC7.

does anyone have ideas on what might be causing this and what else i could try? i'd read somewhere (and i'm way out of my league here - i don't even know what this means) that there was a RAM leak in SC7. could that be it? are there diagnostics i can / should run to help people smarter than me isolate this problem? has anyone else had a similar issue?

again - it's brief (10 seconds) dropouts where a song will stutter and then start right back up where it left off. it's not catastrophic, just really annoying.

What OS are you using?

conradbain
2008-03-13, 12:05
using Vista

bernt
2008-03-14, 00:42
I had almost all issues described in this thread. On a bad day i could not get 100% on the 64kbps network test even if no other wireless computer was on. All wireless computers (four) had no problem with the connection.

I replaced my Netgear DG834G with a Linksys WAG325N, placed it on the exact same spot and now I get 100% on the 5000kbps test all day long even with 4 wireless computers connected, surfing, streaming or whatever.

Of course this won't help if the SB are wired.

Tips for wireless SB.
1. The server should be wired and have a fixed ip outside the dhcp scoop.
2. Set a fixed ip on the SB. Make shure it's outside the dhcp scoop. All kind of strange things could happen if you have a ip conflict.
3. Upgrade your AP\Router.
4. Move around the AP to find the best spot.
5. Wire the SB just to se if it still problems.

Tips for wired SB.
1. See above.
2. See above.
3. Install Softsqueeze on a wired PC and test if that works.
4. Uninstall antivirus and disable FW (just for the moment) on the server.
5. Try another cable.
6. Change port om the switch.
7. Upgrade your switch\router.
8. Install SC on another PC. The nic could be broken.

Or, just put your favorite cd in the slot and sit down and have a few beers.

conradbain
2008-03-16, 13:13
thanks everyone, i think my situation was unique. fortunately, i really bolstered my system by doing everything i did - wiring, static IPs, etc. (even though it all proved to be an exercise in futility).

what finally fixed it? updated the firmware on my NAS. i've got a Lacie Ethernet Disk Mini, so if anyone if experiencing these problems, i suggest doing a firmware update -- the download can be found at www.lacie.com.