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norderney
2007-12-31, 11:25
I posted the following in the Beta forum but have not had any replies yet. So this afternoon, I decided to uninstall SC7 and downgrade to SlimServer Version: 6.5.4 - 12568. So having installed version 6.5.4 and let it do a full music scan, I was very disappointed to see that I am STILL suffering the same problem. Getting a gap of a few seconds when doing things like searching for music or when the web browser freshes the music playing screen. The music plays fine with NO gaps if I am accessing other web sites other than slimserver. I have no problem searching for music with the remote control, as long as the slimserver web browser is not active.

I only get this problem with FLAC files. MP3 files play ok all the time even when the web browser refreshes.

I am currently running SqueezeCenter Version: 7.0 - 15528 on a Windows Vista Ultimate Dell PC with 3Gb RAM.
My SqueezeBox is an SB1.




This is what I posted to the Beta forum, but is also seems to apply to 6.5.4 too for me!!!!!
I recently upgraded to SC7 and have been suffering a problem when using the web browser. I control my SB1 with a Dell Axim PDA using Internet Explorer. When the web browser refreshes the screen each time a new track starts playing I get a gap of a few seconds in the music playback. This also happens if I use the web browser on my PC. If I close down all web browsers and control my SB1 with the remote control, it works fine.


Is this a problem with my SB1?

Any advice would be appreciated.

norderney
2008-01-02, 14:03
Any ideas please?

MP3 files play fine without any breaks in playback.
Only problem is with FLAC files.

Breaks in playback occur when using the Search, Advanced search and Status options. With the Status option playback works ok with FLAC files until the web browser does a re-fresh of the screen display.

This is getting very frustrating. Any advice would be appreciated.

Richie
2008-01-02, 14:29
I haven't used my SB1 for some time now but from what I can recall the behaviour you are seeing is quite normal.

The buffer in the SB1 is much smaller than the SB2/3 and is of the order of a few seconds of music for flac (which will be transcoded to wav), probably 10 times that for mp3.

This means that if your server is busy for a second or two doing something else or querying the Slimserver/SqueezeCenter database it's quite easy to get a dropout. You don't get the same problem with mp3 since the buffer holds 10 to 20 seconds of music.

The remote seemed to use less server power than the web interface and was less likely to give problems.

I wasn't sure of the numbers above so if you look here:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?HardwareComparison

you can see the size of the buffers. The numbers there suggest that the SB1 can only store less than a second of wav data.

Hope this helps.

Richard

andyg
2008-01-02, 15:07
Couple things to try:

* Use SC7.
* Make sure both SB1 and the server are using ethernet.
* Make sure you don't have your items per page setting higher than the default of 50.
* Don't do really crazy searches while playing music, i.e. a search like "bitrate less than 192k" is going to take a while.

How fast is your server?
How big is your music library?
What kind of searches cause problems?

The playlist refreshing should not cause this problem, it's got code in there to share time with the players now.

andyg
2008-01-02, 15:09
Forgot the most important one:

* Remove any 3rd party plugins.

andyg
2008-01-02, 15:29
Heh, I just fixed a bug in the web search page where it wasn't sharing time properly while building the result list. My SB1 now handles an advanced search just fine, even a horrible one like the bitrate example.

Please try again with tonight's nightly build.

norderney
2008-01-02, 15:40
Is tonight's nightly build ready yet?

Is it SqueezeCenter Trunk v2008-01-02.exe? Or is this yesterdays nightly build?

http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/7.0/

andyg
2008-01-02, 15:41
Sorry no, you will have to wait until tomorrow.

andyg
2008-01-02, 16:21
Scratch that, I just built a new Windows build, give this one a try: http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/7.0/SqueezeCenter_trunk_v2008-01-02.exe

norderney
2008-01-02, 16:50
I have just done a clean install of SqueezeCenter Version: 7.0 - 15790. I have also updated the firmware on my SqueezeBox1.

Unfortunately it does not appear to be any better.

When doing an Advanced Search by Artist it causes the current track to stutter for about 60 to 90 seco9nds approx. the music keeps stopping and starting.

When doing a normal Search to causes the current track to stopo for about 3 seconds then it carries on playing.

When on the Status screen the current track stops for about 3 seconds EACH time the web interface refreshes.

The problem ONLY occurs when using the web interface with FLAC music files. It works fine with MP3 and it works fine with FLAC when you use the remote control.


Andyg raised the following questions:
Couple things to try:

* Use SC7.
I am using SqueezeCenter Version: 7.0 - 15790

* Make sure both SB1 and the server are using ethernet.
I am using Wireless. Ethernet is not fesable.

* Make sure you don't have your items per page setting higher than the default of 50.
Items per page set to 50.

* Don't do really crazy searches while playing music, i.e. a search like "bitrate less than 192k" is going to take a while.
Just doing simple searches such as song title or artist

How fast is your server?
Dell Dimension 9200 with 3Gb RAM Dual Core Processor 2.66GHz

How big is your music library?
2361 albums | 29789 songs | 5062 artists

What kind of searches cause problems?
All searches. Arists, Track names. Both in Search and advanced Search.

The playlist refreshing should not cause this problem, it's got code in there to share time with the players now.
Status screen refresh DOES cause it to stop.

andyg
2008-01-02, 16:58
OK, your server certainly seems powerful enough to handle that.

You should at least try ethernet just to see if the problem is wireless. The SB1 only has 802.11b and streaming 1.4mbps over that is pushing the limits. The max you can expect from 802.11b is around 4mbps I think.

How many items do you have in the playlist when you have the stuttering during refresh? Are you using the Default (Logitech green) skin or another skin?

norderney
2008-01-02, 17:25
On further testing with the latest version of SqueezeCenter Version: 7.0 - 15790, I have actually found an improvement with the Status screen. When the Status screen on the web browser refreshes now it does not stop playing the current track. To prove this point I set the refresh to 2 seconds so that it is constantly doing a refresh and the current track contuinued to play without any interuption. So things are looking better, but I still have a problem with Search and a really big problem with Advanced search.

Can I just mention that my SB1 work perfectly ok when I use the remote control. I only get the problem when using the web interface.

I am currently using the Handheld skin, but am also getting the same problems when using the default skin.

I bought my SqueezeBox 1 in November 2004 and it has worked perfectly until about a week ago. It has been streaming both MP3 and FLAC files wirelessly without any problems.

I have not installed any new software on my computer recently and no software has been updated either. I am currently running without any plugins for my SqueezeBox.

andyg
2008-01-02, 17:31
Only a week ago you noticed this problem? What changed a week ago?

This has been a tough problem with the SB1 for a very long time. The reason you only have a problem with the web UI is that the database queries to build the web interface are much more complex than to build the player interface.

norderney
2008-01-02, 17:58
I have been considering buying a Transporter for the improved audio quality. I am probably a few months away from being able to afford to buy one, as long as the price stays around 1,289.00!!!

Will the Transporter offer better wireless caapabilities over the SB1? I currently use a Netgear Wireless ADSL DG834G Router which has both modes g and b.

You say that the SB1 only has 802.11b and streaming 1.4mbps over that is pushing the limits. Would the Transporter improve on this?

If the Transporter will have significant wireless improvements, then perhaps I will just have to live with the SB1 problems for the time being?


You asked "Only a week ago you noticed this problem? What changed a week ago?"
That's my problem - Nothing has changed over the past couple of weeks, as far as I am aware. I don't even think Microsoft have done one of their many Windows Vista upgrades!!!

andyg
2008-01-02, 18:19
I still think it could be wireless issues. If you can, move your SB1 and try ethernet even just for a few minutes to see if that's part of the problem. Your neighbor could have just setup a wireless network on the same channel as yours, or something.

Regarding the Transporter, yes, you shouldn't have any wireless problems with either the SB3 or Transporter. They both have a huge buffer and native FLAC support.

icdsgnr
2008-01-02, 19:17
Isn't this the same problem I had for SB1.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6344


I was hoping a work around was eventually coming for SB1 and high bit rate material. For example updating the browser interface would be suspended when the buffer runs down, or do a complete exhaustion of the buffer at the end of song, update browser, refill buffer with one and only one song, iff web browser up. This way the sound gaps would be between songs and not after a song begins.

I had this problem running with an ethernet connection on a reasonably fast machine with plenty of memory.

One question, why is simply updating the graphical song pointer in the browser such a complicated thing that a 1sec buffer of material (SB1 running 1.41Mb/s) runs down? I'm not being a smart alec, I haven't written any browser aps and it has been years since I've done any serious programming so I really am just curious.

andyg
2008-01-02, 19:22
The problem has always been database queries that take too long. They are not asynchronous and cannot be 'paused' to wait for other events.

icdsgnr
2008-01-02, 19:33
Ok but what about just the normal web UI update stuff that can be synchronized (I guess in a later version).

Even if the "browser update to point the next song" is implemented "open loop" with no buffer checking or "buffer nearly empty" asynchronous interrupt, I'm surprised it bogs my server enough so SB1 buffer empties. Complicated searches etc, yes, I can see --- don't do that if one has a SB1, but just updating the browser?

andyg
2008-01-02, 19:36
I am looking at that now. It looks like the playlist page data is not cached as much if you are using a skin other than Default or Classic, but I'm not sure why. There's also an excessive amount of database queries (1 per track in the search results or playlist), I'm sure we can do something about those.

icdsgnr
2008-01-02, 19:46
Thanks for checking it out. :) Seems like the hardware of later boxes made it easier (more time to spend) to take care of stuff on the fly without worrying much ... I'm glad the legacy boxes SB1 aren't getting left in the dust the way Microsoft built operating systems that are even too big to load on old PCs.

FYI I was running SC7 with the default skin, if that helps.

seanadams
2008-01-02, 19:49
I have been considering buying a Transporter for the improved audio quality. I am probably a few months away from being able to afford to buy one, as long as the price stays around 1,289.00!!!

Will the Transporter offer better wireless caapabilities over the SB1? I currently use a Netgear Wireless ADSL DG834G Router which has both modes g and b.

You say that the SB1 only has 802.11b and streaming 1.4mbps over that is pushing the limits. Would the Transporter improve on this?

If the Transporter will have significant wireless improvements, then perhaps I will just have to live with the SB1 problems for the time being?

Transporter will definitely not have this problem. Not only does it use 802.11g and have vastly more buffering memory, but it also has built-in FLAC capability which greatly reduces the demand on the network.

msherman
2008-01-03, 08:01
norderney wrote:
>
> You asked "Only a week ago you noticed this problem? What changed a
> week ago?"
> That's my problem - Nothing has changed over the past couple of weeks,
> as far as I am aware. I don't even think Microsoft have done one of
> their many Windows Vista upgrades!!!

I'll bet that what changed a week ago was that three of your neighbours
hooked up new wireless networks from under the christmas tree, reducing
your bandwidth.

- Marc

norderney
2008-01-03, 13:43
I'll bet that what changed a week ago was that three of your neighbours
hooked up new wireless networks from under the christmas tree, reducing
your bandwidth.

- Marc

Yes but would that affect the playback of FLAC music files ONLY? Remember I can play MP3 files ok and I can access internet via wireless all without any problems. Also FLAC files do play ok if I do not use the Slimserver web browser. FLAC music files play fine even when I am accessing internet vis wireless connection. I would have thought if it were another wireless network I would have other problems such as intermittent problems accessing the internet.

Also, my next door neighbour does not even have a computer. There are only 2 other houses anywhere near me and they are over 60 feet away from my house.

I have also tried a variety of different channels on my Netgear ADSL Wireless Router. But still get exactly the same problem, no matter which channels I select.

Is there any software that I can download from the internet that will let me search for other wireless networks?

bpa
2008-01-03, 13:50
How about the decorations :-) ?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/06/no_wifi_for_xmas/

msherman
2008-01-03, 14:28
norderney wrote:
>
> Yes but would that affect the playback of FLAC music files ONLY?
> Remember I can play MP3 files ok and I can access internet via wireless
> all without any problems. Also FLAC files do play ok if I do not use
> the Slimserver web browser. FLAC music files play fine even when I am
> accessing internet vis wireless connection. I would have thought if it
> were another wireless network I would have other problems such as
> intermittent problems accessing the internet.

Sure, there are known problems with transcoded formats playing on SB1s,
which you've already been discussing. The problems manifest as reduced
throughput from the server. Bandwidth issues also lead to reduced
throughput. Prior to christmas, the problems weren't bad enough to break
through the barrier of the SB1's buffer, but as the bandwidth
deteriorated, things got worse.

> Is there any software that I can download from the internet that will
> let me search for other wireless networks?

http://www.netstumbler.com/

- Marc

Triode
2008-01-03, 15:27
Try the tests detailed here:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?DiagnosingPerformanceIssues

For 7.0, the server and network health page should be available under help. Try the server performance section. To see the performance log you will need to browse to <server url>/perfmon.log. This should show you if it is the server performance which is causing the drop outs.

ModelCitizen
2008-01-03, 15:27
It'll be interesting to see if the problem lasts into next week. Most people will take down their trees and turn off their noisy flashing Christmas tree lights this weekend.

MC

norderney
2008-01-03, 16:09
Try the tests detailed here:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?DiagnosingPerformanceIssues

For 7.0, the server and network health page should be available under help. Try the server performance section. To see the performance log you will need to browse to <server url>/perfmon.log. This should show you if it is the server performance which is causing the drop outs.

Here are the results - hope I have done this ok!!!!


Player Statistics
Signal Strength
This graph shows the strength of the wireless signal received by your player. Higher signal strength is better. The player reports signal strength while it is playing.
< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
< 30 : 0 : 0%
< 40 : 11 : 4% ##
< 50 : 235 : 96% ###############################################
< 60 : 0 : 0%
< 70 : 0 : 0%
< 80 : 0 : 0%
< 90 : 0 : 0%
< 100 : 0 : 0%
>=100 : 0 : 0%
max : 46.000000
min : 34.000000
avg : 42.495935

Warning Thresholds : Low High
Buffer Fullness
This graph shows the fill of the player's buffer. Higher buffer fullness is better. Note the buffer is only filled while the player is playing tracks.
Squeezebox1 uses a small buffer and it is expected to stay full while playing. If this value drops to 0 it will result in audio dropouts. This is likely to be due to network problems.

Squeezebox2/3 uses a large buffer. This drains to 0 at the end of each track and then refills for the next track. You should only be concerned if the buffer fill is not high for the majority of the time a track is playing.

Playing remote streams can lead to low buffer fill as the player needs to wait for data from the remote server. This is not a cause for concern.

< 10 : 12 : 5% ##
< 20 : 3 : 1%
< 30 : 3 : 1%
< 40 : 3 : 1%
< 50 : 3 : 1%
< 60 : 3 : 1%
< 70 : 7 : 3% #
< 80 : 9 : 4% #
< 90 : 5 : 2% #
< 100 : 198 : 80% ########################################
>=100 : 0 : 0%
max : 99.528285
min : 0.000000
avg : 87.564424

Warning Thresholds : Low High
Control Connection
This graph shows the number of messages queued up to send to the player over the control connection. A measurement is taken every time a new message is sent to the player. Values above 1-2 indicate potential network congestion or that the player has become disconnected.
< 1 : 1304 :100% ##################################################
< 2 : 0 : 0%
< 5 : 0 : 0%
< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
>=20 : 0 : 0%
max : 0.000000
min : 0.000000
avg : 0.000000

Server Response Time
The response time of the server - the time between successive calls to select.
< 0.002 : 6064 : 99% #################################################
< 0.005 : 11 : 0%
< 0.01 : 13 : 0%
< 0.02 : 3 : 0%
< 0.05 : 12 : 0%
< 0.1 : 2 : 0%
< 0.5 : 0 : 0%
< 1 : 0 : 0%
< 5 : 0 : 0%
>=5 : 0 : 0%
max : 0.055834
min : 0.000020
avg : 0.000407


Performance Summary : Squeezebox
Please queue up several tracks to play on this player and start them playing. Then press the Reset link below to clear the statistics and update this display.

Reset

Summary
Control Connection : OK
Streaming Connection : OK
Signal Strength : OK
Buffer Fullness : OK
Server Response Time : OK
Warnings
This player is performing normally.

norderney
2008-01-04, 02:46
I managed to get hold of a 10m CAT5 cable and I connected it from my Router into the back of my SB1. I then went into SB1 setup and selected the option "Connect to an Ethernet Network". I then completed the rest of the setup procedure. Then I played a FLAC music track, which played ok UNTIL I did a search with the Search option. I searched on an artists name, then selected an album and when I did this there was a 3 second break in muisic playback.

I then tried an Advanced Search using the same artists name and this caused music playback to stutter constantly for over 60 seconds.

These tests were done using the web interface while playing a FLAC music track. I can confirm that when I am NOT using the web interface FLAC music playback works ok both via Wireless and Ethernet connections.

msherman
2008-01-04, 06:37
norderney wrote:
> I managed to get hold of a 10m CAT5 cable and I connected it from my
> Router into the back of my SB1. I then went into SB1 setup and selected
> the option "Connect to an Ethernet Network". I then completed the rest
> of the setup procedure. Then I played a FLAC music track, which played
> ok UNTIL I did a search with the Search option. I searched on an
> artists name, then selected an album and when I did this there was a 3
> second break in muisic playback.

Ok, that proves it has nothing to do with wireless, then. I'm stumped as
to why this only started last week -- it's a known architectural problem
with slimserver, caused by the fact that slimserver does streaming and
web serving in the same process, and really should have always been
hitting you in this scenario.

My only guess is did you add a bunch of tracks to your library recently?
If so, you might have crossed a threshold making the advanced search
take longer.

The next question to ask is, do you have any modern SD players
(SB2/3/transporter)? Or just SB1s? If the latter, your best bet is to
transcode your FLAC library to MP3, and only put the MP3s in your
Slimserver library. Don't delete the FLACs, though!

That way, slimserver won't be transcoding in realtime, so there won't be
as much going on on the computer to compete with streaming when you do a
web search.

- Marc

norderney
2008-01-04, 09:22
My only guess is did you add a bunch of tracks to your library recently?
If so, you might have crossed a threshold making the advanced search
take longer.

Have not added any new tracks since the problem occured!!!!
My current statisics are - 2361 albums | 29789 songs | 5062 artists
About 80% of these tracks are FLAC, the rest are MP3. MP3 files play ok.
Should this be ok for a SB1?
Would this be ok for a Transporter?



The next question to ask is, do you have any modern SD players
(SB2/3/transporter)? Or just SB1s? If the latter, your best bet is to
transcode your FLAC library to MP3, and only put the MP3s in your
Slimserver library. Don't delete the FLACs, though!.

I only have a SB1, and I do not really want to listen to all my FLAC music in MP3!!!!




Transporter will definitely not have this problem. Not only does it use 802.11g and have vastly more buffering memory, but it also has built-in FLAC capability which greatly reduces the demand on the network.

I am getting more convinced that perhaps my best option is to get a Transporter. I had been planning to upgrade from my SB1 to a Transporter, I just was not wanting to do it so soon!!!! I have heard so many positive things about the Transporter.

Is there much bandwidth improvement in going from 802.11b (SB1) to 802.11g (Transporter).

I understand another benefit of the Transporter is that it plays FLAC files directly and they do not need to be processed by Slimserver first?

Triode
2008-01-04, 13:26
Re the diagnostic test, you really need to run the server tests for a while and then look at the "Server Response Time" graph:

Server Response Time
The response time of the server - the time between successive calls to select.
< 0.002 : 6064 : 99% #################################################
< 0.005 : 11 : 0%
< 0.01 : 13 : 0%
< 0.02 : 3 : 0%
< 0.05 : 12 : 0%
< 0.1 : 2 : 0%
< 0.5 : 0 : 0%
< 1 : 0 : 0%
< 5 : 0 : 0%
>=5 : 0 : 0%
max : 0.055834
min : 0.000020
avg : 0.000407

This is currently saying that the server has never taken more than 0.1 of a second to respond to requests for music from the player. Run for a while while it is dropping out, do you see numbers climbing up lower down the graph?

If not then is sounds like this is simply a network issue, try the network test plugin (under Extras) to see what the highest rate you can get is.

norderney
2008-01-04, 14:38
try the network test plugin (under Extras) to see what the highest rate you can get is.

Do you mean the Network Test in Server & Network Heath (SC7)? It allows you to select the Test Rate. I am currently running it set to 1000kbps. It has been running for about 10 minutes now. How do these results look?


Network Test : Squeezebox
Current Test Rate : 1000 kbps
Test Rate | Stop Test | 64 kbps | 128 kbps | 192 kbps | 256 kbps | 320 kbps | 500 kbps | 1000 kbps | 1500 kbps | 2000 kbps | 2500 kbps | 3000 kbps | 4000 kbps | 5000 kbps
You are currently running a network test on this player. This disables reporting other player statistics. You may change the test rate by selecting a new rate above. To stop the test and return to other player performance information select Stop Test above.

The graph below records the percentage of the test rate which is sucessfully sent to the player. It is updated once per second with the performance measured over the last second. The result for the last second and long term average at this rate are also shown on the player display while a test is running. Leave the test running for a period of time at a fixed rate. The graph will record how frequently the network performance drops below 100% at this rate.

< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
< 30 : 0 : 0%
< 40 : 0 : 0%
< 50 : 0 : 0%
< 60 : 1 : 0%
< 70 : 2 : 0%
< 75 : 8 : 1%
< 80 : 4 : 0%
< 85 : 6 : 1%
< 90 : 7 : 1%
< 95 : 20 : 2%
< 100 : 76 : 7% ###
>=100 : 1020 : 89% ############################################
max : 100.000000
min : 59.817352
avg : 99.206238


After a further 5 minutes the results were as follows:

< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
< 30 : 0 : 0%
< 40 : 0 : 0%
< 50 : 0 : 0%
< 60 : 1 : 0%
< 70 : 3 : 0%
< 75 : 15 : 1%
< 80 : 10 : 1%
< 85 : 12 : 1%
< 90 : 15 : 1%
< 95 : 33 : 2%
< 100 : 119 : 6% ###
>=100 : 1658 : 89% ############################################
max : 100.000000
min : 59.817352
avg : 99.123411

Triode
2008-01-04, 14:53
Hum - that suggests your network can't maintain 1000 kpbs and drops down occasionally. I would have hoped that at 1000 kpbs that it only recorded 100%

If you try a lower rate does it record 100%?

If you look at the player when this is going on does the bar graph occasionally drop? This would seem the be the cause of your problem.

norderney
2008-01-04, 15:23
Ok here is the result at 500Kbps. I guess this is better, but if you thought 1000Kbps should have been 100% then I guess this is not looking too good? Could it be a fault with my Router. Bear in mind that I am having the SAME problem with BOTH wireless AND Ethernet connections!!!! AS most of my MP3 files are at an average of 256kbps, then this is probably why MP3 is working ok!!!! The lower the rate the better the result.

Current Test Rate : 500 kbps

< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
< 30 : 0 : 0%
< 40 : 0 : 0%
< 50 : 1 : 0%
< 60 : 0 : 0%
< 70 : 0 : 0%
< 75 : 0 : 0%
< 80 : 2 : 0%
< 85 : 3 : 0%
< 90 : 2 : 0%
< 95 : 4 : 0%
< 100 : 15 : 1%
>=100 : 1117 : 98% ################################################
max : 100.000000
min : 47.706422
avg : 99.790137




Just run the 1000Kbps test again and the results are even worse and the bar graph on SB1 is constantly changing by quite large amounts amost every second!!!!!!

Current Test Rate : 1000 kbps

< 10 : 0 : 0%
< 20 : 0 : 0%
< 30 : 0 : 0%
< 40 : 1 : 0%
< 50 : 4 : 2%
< 60 : 2 : 1%
< 70 : 5 : 2% #
< 75 : 5 : 2% #
< 80 : 8 : 3% #
< 85 : 7 : 3% #
< 90 : 14 : 6% ##
< 95 : 31 : 13% ######
< 100 : 55 : 23% ###########
>=100 : 108 : 45% ######################
max : 100.000000
min : 36.073059
avg : 93.647480

Triode
2008-01-04, 15:55
So was there anything going on on the server while you saw the graph going up and down. If not then it definately points at the network and you should try direct wiring, changing cables/routers etc.

[The measurement relies on the server to send data so if you were hitting the server hard doing other things then it can impact the measurements, so need to discount this first]

norderney
2008-01-04, 16:08
No nothing was running on the server, and SB1 was not playing any music. Nothing else was happening, while the test was running.

Earlier today I tried connecting my SB1 to the Router with a CAT5 cable and I still got drop outs. I could try these network tests again with an Ethernet CAT5 connection. I will let you know what happens!

Thank you so much for your help so far, it is much appreciated.

bpa
2008-01-04, 16:37
An intermittent fault in a network cable, connection or interface can result in a packet errors.

If the problem is because of load or similar then it is likely there are no errors when sending/receiving packets.

You should check network interface statistics on the PC to see if there are network receive errors, retransmits or timeouts.

norderney
2008-01-04, 16:43
Very strange. When running the Network Test at 1000 kbps with a wired Ethernet connection (I have changed SB1 setup to Ethernet connection),I get a sold 100% all the time and the status bar on SB1 does not move.

BUT if I leave the wired Ethernet connection to my Router in place, and then play some music I still get the same problems occuring.

That is:
1. When doing a Search the music playback stops for about 3 seconds.
2. When SC7 is on the Status screen, when the screen does a refresh there is a pause of about 3 seconds
3. When doing Advanced Search by artist name music playback almost stops completely while the search is running which can last for 60 seconds or more.

So do you think I have a problem with my Wireless Router?
I have a Netgear Wireless ADSL Router DG834G.
Do you think I should try replacing it?
As I do not have any spare Routers I would have to Buy another one (about 50.00).
What would you recommend?
Is it worth getting another Netgear DG834G?

norderney
2008-01-04, 16:44
You should check network interface statistics on the PC to see if there are network receive errors, retransmits or timeouts.


How do I do this?

Triode
2008-01-04, 16:47
Very strange. When running the Network Test at 1000 kbps with a wired Ethernet connection (I have changed SB1 setup to Ethernet connection),I get a sold 100% all the time and the status bar on SB1 does not move.

BUT if I leave the wired Ethernet connection to my Router in place, and then play some music I still get the same problems occuring.

That is:
1. When doing a Search the music playback stops for about 3 seconds.
2. When SC7 is on the Status screen, when the screen does a refresh there is a pause of about 3 seconds
3. When doing Advanced Search by artist name music playback almost stops completely while the search is running which can last for 60 seconds or more.

So do you think I have a problem with my Wireless Router?
I have a Netgear Wireless ADSL Router DG834G.
Do you think I should try replacing it?
As I do not have any spare Routers I would have to Buy another one (about 50.00).
What would you recommend?
Is it worth getting another Netgear DG834G?

No - so I think that means the network is ok when you wire directly. But when you do the other things on the server it is running too slow. If you reset the server performance graphs before doing the above and then look at them afterwards, what does the Server Response Time graph show?

bpa
2008-01-04, 16:56
Not sure about Visat but in XP. Open a Command prompt Window and give the command

netstat -s -p TCP

This shows the current values. Give this command before and after running a test and look at the difference. In most networks there will always a few errors but if it seems there are a lot of errors - then it may be work checking cables, interface.

If there seems to be a problem there you should do file transfer tests between two PCs and check error counts for each direction.

ModelCitizen
2008-01-04, 16:59
When running the Network Test at 1000 kbps with a wired Ethernet connection (I have changed SB1 setup to Ethernet connection),I get a sold 100% all the time and the status bar on SB1 does not move.
BUT if I leave the wired Ethernet connection to my Router in place, and then play some music I still get the same problems occuring.
Is it worth getting another Netgear DG834G?
I use the same router with no problems, as I am sure lots of other do. Have you tried updating the firmware?
Personally I doubt if it is the router that's the problem. They generally either work or screw up big time.
Could it be worth unattaching any wireless network devices connecting to the router or better perhaps, turning off the wireless capability of the router (if possible) to see if this makes a difference?

MC

norderney
2008-01-04, 17:02
No - so I think that means the network is ok when you wire directly. But when you do the other things on the server it is running too slow. If you reset the server performance graphs before doing the above and then look at them afterwards, what does the Server Response Time graph show?

With the Wired Ethernet connection still in place and playing FLAC files through SB1, I get the following results:

Server Response Time
The response time of the server - the time between successive calls to select.
< 0.002 : 1026885 :100% #################################################
< 0.005 : 290 : 0%
< 0.01 : 300 : 0%
< 0.02 : 889 : 0%
< 0.05 : 315 : 0%
< 0.1 : 526 : 0%
< 0.5 : 139 : 0%
< 1 : 14 : 0%
< 5 : 193 : 0%
>=5 : 0 : 0%
max : 2.592029
min : 0.000019
avg : 0.000696

Triode
2008-01-04, 17:13
Yep - over 100 pauses between 1 and 5 seconds from the server.

This is a server performance issue. Read the diagnostics wiki some more and set the performance threshold to 0.5 seconds.

For SC7.0 the output should be on the url: <serverurl>/perfmon.log

norderney
2008-01-04, 17:20
Not sure about Visat but in XP. Open a Command prompt Window and give the command

netstat -s -p TCP

This shows the current values. .


I have just run netstat -s -p TCP while play FLAC files with the Wired Ethernet connection to my Router with the following results:

TCP Statistics for IPv4

Active Opens = 1131
Passive Opens = 877
Failed Connection Attempts = 33
Reset Connections = 633
Current Connections = 14
Segments Received = 955375
Segments Sent = 1606811
Segments Retransmitted = 2316

Active Connections

Proto Local Address Foreign Address State
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:49548 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:49639 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:50513 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:9092 AndrewSmith:49534 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:27015 AndrewSmith:49530 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49530 AndrewSmith:27015 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49534 AndrewSmith:9092 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49548 AndrewSmith:9000 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49639 AndrewSmith:9000 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:50513 AndrewSmith:9000 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:50720 AndrewSmith:9000 TIME_WAIT
TCP 127.0.0.1:50723 AndrewSmith:9000 TIME_WAIT
TCP 127.0.0.1:50726 AndrewSmith:9000 TIME_WAIT
TCP 127.0.0.1:50761 AndrewSmith:50762 CLOSE_WAIT
TCP 127.0.0.1:50762 AndrewSmith:50761 FIN_WAIT_2
TCP 192.168.0.9:3483 192.168.0.3:29965 ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.0.9:50658 bu-in-f91:http CLOSE_WAIT
TCP 192.168.0.9:50769 206.65.171.167:http SYN_SENT
TCP 192.168.0.9:50770 JAMSHIDKHON-PC:netbios-ssn ESTABLISHED


I have just run netstat -s -p TCP while play FLAC files with the Wireless connection to my Router with the following results:


TCP Statistics for IPv4

Active Opens = 1144
Passive Opens = 887
Failed Connection Attempts = 34
Reset Connections = 642
Current Connections = 17
Segments Received = 963562
Segments Sent = 1618024
Segments Retransmitted = 2349

Active Connections

Proto Local Address Foreign Address State
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:49548 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:49639 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:50513 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:9000 AndrewSmith:50788 CLOSE_WAIT
TCP 127.0.0.1:9092 AndrewSmith:49534 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:27015 AndrewSmith:49530 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49530 AndrewSmith:27015 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49534 AndrewSmith:9092 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49548 AndrewSmith:9000 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:49639 AndrewSmith:9000 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:50513 AndrewSmith:9000 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:50771 AndrewSmith:50772 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:50772 AndrewSmith:50771 ESTABLISHED
TCP 127.0.0.1:50785 AndrewSmith:9000 TIME_WAIT
TCP 127.0.0.1:50788 AndrewSmith:9000 FIN_WAIT_2
TCP 192.168.0.9:3483 192.168.0.5:42547 ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.0.9:9000 192.168.0.5:42548 ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.0.9:50658 bu-in-f91:http CLOSE_WAIT
TCP 192.168.0.9:50773 194.217.240.78:http ESTABLISHED


Is this any help. I am not really a great expert on networks, and I am starting to get a bit confused as to where the problem lies.

Triode
2008-01-04, 17:29
With the wired connection, I don't think there is anything wrong with the network - you are only seeing problems when you do something on the server. This is shown by the performance graphs. SB1 only has about 0.5 seconds of buffer when playing wav/flac so if the server pauses for longer than this you get a dropout.

The server diagnostics can help us find out where in the server (or plugins) this is coming from and may allow us to improve it. Otherwise a newer player has more buffering and so will cope with these pauses.

norderney
2008-01-04, 17:32
Yep - over 100 pauses between 1 and 5 seconds from the server.

This is a server performance issue. Read the diagnostics wiki some more and set the performance threshold to 0.5 seconds.

Changed the performance threshold to 0.5 seconds and while play a FLAC file I got the following results via Wireless.

Server Response Time
The response time of the server - the time between successive calls to select.
< 0.002 : 1055099 :100% #################################################
< 0.005 : 350 : 0%
< 0.01 : 352 : 0%
< 0.02 : 1280 : 0%
< 0.05 : 492 : 0%
< 0.1 : 697 : 0%
< 0.5 : 180 : 0%
< 1 : 39 : 0%
< 5 : 332 : 0%
>=5 : 0 : 0%
max : 2.592029
min : 0.000019
avg : 0.000950

Warning Thresholds : Low High Backtrace


QUOTE=Triode;254333]For SC7.0 the output should be on the url: <serverurl>/perfmon.log[/QUOTE]

Can you explain this to me. what do you want me to do with this?

Triode
2008-01-04, 17:38
Changed the performance threshold to 0.5 seconds and while play a FLAC file I got the following results via Wireless.

Server Response Time
The response time of the server - the time between successive calls to select.
< 0.002 : 1055099 :100% #################################################
< 0.005 : 350 : 0%
< 0.01 : 352 : 0%
< 0.02 : 1280 : 0%
< 0.05 : 492 : 0%
< 0.1 : 697 : 0%
< 0.5 : 180 : 0%
< 1 : 39 : 0%
< 5 : 332 : 0%
>=5 : 0 : 0%
max : 2.592029
min : 0.000019
avg : 0.000950

Warning Thresholds : Low High Backtrace


QUOTE=Triode;254333]For SC7.0 the output should be on the url: <serverurl>/perfmon.log

Can you explain this to me. what do you want me to do with this?[/QUOTE]

The server should have stored some debug information thaat you need to access via you web browser. Go to the url for the server and change it to end /perfmon.log (possibly http://localhost:9000/perfmon.log) do you see anything?

bpa
2008-01-04, 17:39
I think the netstat figures look reasonable. I'm guessing that your played a number of Flac files.

If you only played one Flac file - then I think you could revisit these but only if all other possible causes are dismissed.

norderney
2008-01-04, 17:48
The server should have stored some debug information thaat you need to access via you web browser. Go to the url for the server and change it to end /perfmon.log (possibly http://localhost:9000/perfmon.log) do you see anything?

I entered the URL as http://127.0.0.1:9000/perfmon.log but it just says Connecting and not display anything.

If I type in http://127.0.0.1:9000/ it displays the Main Menu showing Home status Playlist Search along the top, so I know http://127.0.0.1:9000/ is correct, but it does not seem to like me doing http://127.0.0.1:9000/perfmon.log

Triode
2008-01-04, 17:56
Ah - you may need to do this in a second browser session to see any debug caused by the first browser session. Set it up and leave the browser open, then repeat the previous test in another session.

norderney
2008-01-04, 18:06
Ah - you may need to do this in a second browser session to see any debug caused by the first browser session. Set it up and leave the browser open, then repeat the previous test in another session.


I have got Server Statistics - http://127.0.0.1:9000/plugins/Health/server.html?refresh= running in one browser session and http://127.0.0.1:9000/perfmon.log running in a second browser session, but /perfmon.log is still not responding.

Triode
2008-01-04, 18:09
I have got Server Statistics - http://127.0.0.1:9000/plugins/Health/server.html?refresh= running in one browser session and http://127.0.0.1:9000/perfmon.log running in a second browser session, but /perfmon.log is still not responding.

Hum - thats a recent addition to SC7.0

Try turning on the statistics thresholds and the opening the log file specified at the top of the page with the stats

norderney
2008-01-04, 18:15
Hum - thats a recent addition to SC7.0

Try turning on the statistics thresholds and the opening the log file specified at the top of the page with the stats


At the top of the Server Statistics page it says:
"The server is currently collecting performance statistics for various internal server functions. These graphs are intended to be used to help diagnose performance issues with the server and its plugins.
You may set warning thresholds for each measurement. Events which exceed this threshold will be logged to a log file. The log is stored at: C:\ProgramData\SqueezeCenter\Logs\perfmon.log"



But there is no folder on drive C: called ProgramData. I even looked in C:\Program Files\SqueezeCenter, but there in nor folder called Logs there either. Do I need to turn something on?

Triode
2008-01-05, 05:45
But there is no folder on drive C: called ProgramData.

There probably is, but you can't see it with explorer.

Try opening wordpad and pasting in the explict filename given on that web page.

Alternatively go to explorer - oganise - folders and search options - view - and set "show hidden files and folders"

norderney
2008-01-05, 11:19
There probably is, but you can't see it with explorer.

Try opening wordpad and pasting in the explict filename given on that web page.

Alternatively go to explorer - oganise - folders and search options - view - and set "show hidden files and folders"


OK, I have set "show hidden files and folders" in explorer and indeed there is a folder called C:\ProgramData\SqueezeCenter\Logs. There are 3 files in this Logs folder.

perfmon 26/12/2007 08:32 0kb
scanner 05/01/2008 13:48 155kb
server 05/01/2008 17:56 257kb


It does not look as if anything has updated the perfmon file recently!!! I have zipped up these 3 files as attachments incase there is anything worth looking at in them.

I actually have Server statistics running at the moment, but does not appear to be writing to this file, as looking at the date stamp and size it has never been updated!!!

Any other ideas? I really am most grateful for all your help so far, Triode. I bought my SB1 in November 2004 and it has been in constant use since then. Infact my Arcam CD72 CD player has not been used since buying my SB1 and my CD collection has expanded greatly since buying SB1 as well!!!!!!

Triode
2008-01-05, 13:34
Only file which matters here is the perfmon one as it should include the results from performance monitoring threshold events - unfortunately it seems empty!

Can I suggest you try restarting the server, enable performance monitoring and set the high threshold for all server events to 0.5 seconds [put 0.5 in the high box and then press set all]

Then run the server for a while during which time you use the server and cause drop outs. Some clues as to when the drop outs are occuring should then be in the perfmon log file. [I hope!]

norderney
2008-01-05, 17:22
Only file which matters here is the perfmon one as it should include the results from performance monitoring threshold events - unfortunately it seems empty!

Can I suggest you try restarting the server, enable performance monitoring and set the high threshold for all server events to 0.5 seconds [put 0.5 in the high box and then press set all]

Then run the server for a while during which time you use the server and cause drop outs. Some clues as to when the drop outs are occuring should then be in the perfmon log file. [I hope!]

Well I followed these instructions, but perfmon is still showing 26/12/2007 08:32 0kb. So I wonder where I go from here?

Server Response Time
The response time of the server - the time between successive calls to select.
< 0.002 : 142281 : 99% #################################################
< 0.005 : 176 : 0%
< 0.01 : 182 : 0%
< 0.02 : 701 : 0%
< 0.05 : 198 : 0%
< 0.1 : 314 : 0%
< 0.5 : 119 : 0%
< 1 : 14 : 0%
< 5 : 126 : 0%
>=5 : 0 : 0%
max : 2.575338
min : 0.000016
avg : 0.002624

Zaragon
2008-01-16, 16:29
This almost sounds like a combination of problems. The ethernet tests that you've done point at there being some issue with the server however, that doesn't mean that you may not also have problems with the radio as you are shifting a lot of data over a relatively slow link for what you are trying to do.

I have also personally had a couple of netgear router/wireless devices where the wireless power levels were inexplicably low severely reducing range which would just as unexplicably correct themselves usually after a radio config change. (Not interference in my case since I scanned for that.)

However, two things come to mine about the server. Since all it is essentially doing is reading a file from disk to the network general server load and also disk load could impact this.

Checking the system CPU load is fairly simple matter of right click on the task bar and select Task Manager. Clicking on the performance tab will give you an indication of whether the CPU is loaded causing problems.

The other possibility could be the disk. Is you music library on an internal disk or an external disk. If an external how is it connected USB1 USB2 SATA etc. Is your library on the same disk as the Slim Server is installed?

There is also a possibility that you are getting disk errors which are being resolved but it would slow down the read from the disk so that when data is being retrieved as well as music causes a problem.

norderney
2008-01-16, 17:00
Transporter will definitely not have this problem. Not only does it use 802.11g and have vastly more buffering memory, but it also has built-in FLAC capability which greatly reduces the demand on the network.


I have resolved my problem with the audio dropouts from my SB1....... I have bought a Transporter!!!!!

As soon as I powered up the Transporter, it found my wireless network without any problems, and for the past week I have been playing FLAC files perfectly without any problems. The sound quality is also a great improvement as well.

And I love SqueezeNetwork!!!!

All I need now is the nice SB Controller!!!!!

Thanks very much to everybody for your replies.