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View Full Version : New menu behaviour when device is off



max.spicer
2007-12-19, 15:54
Hi,

I have to say that I don't like the new reduced menus that are displayed when the device is off. If I want to browse my music library to select some music, I now have to scroll down to the last option, select Turn on Transporter, wait for stuff to happen, then scroll all the way back to Music Library. When I select to play an item, the device will be turned on anyway, so why these new hoops?

The extra navigation and clicks is the biggest problem here, but I also don't like the fact that I now have to turn on a device just to browse my music library. It was all better before. :-(

Max

bklaas
2007-12-19, 16:04
Hi,

I have to say that I don't like the new reduced menus that are displayed when the device is off.

...

It was all better before. :-(

Max

<pops popcorn>
<waits for Dean...>

:)

dean
2007-12-19, 18:44
On Dec 19, 2007, at 3:04 PM, bklaas wrote:

>
> max.spicer;250221 Wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have to say that I don't like the new reduced menus that are
>> displayed when the device is off.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It was all better before. :-(
>>
>> Max
>
> <pops popcorn>
> <waits for Dean...>
Here I am.

Don't turn it off. :)

Seriously, you want it off, but also able to browse, etc? What, to
you, does "off" mean?

peterw
2007-12-19, 19:06
Seriously, you want it off, but also able to browse, etc? What, to
you, does "off" mean?

It means SuperDateTime is telling me the time, temperature, and weather conditions. Much more valuable than the phrase "Now Playing".

-Peter

dean
2007-12-19, 19:18
It's a funny thing, having this system with two screens, one in your
hand and one on the display.

On and Off don't really have much intrinsic meaning in an always-on
always-connected device.

We have a power button because folks are comfortable pushing it to
stop the thing and feel better when it's "off". The question is
then, how does it behave when it's "off".

On Dec 19, 2007, at 6:06 PM, peterw wrote:
> It means SuperDateTime is telling me the time, temperature, and
> weather
> conditions. Much more valuable than the phrase "Now Playing".
Ah. So you use off as a way to turn on a particular screensaver?

What do other people expect it to do?

peterw
2007-12-19, 19:47
On Dec 19, 2007, at 6:06 PM, peterw wrote:
> It means SuperDateTime is telling me the time, temperature, and
> weather
> conditions. Much more valuable than the phrase "Now Playing".
Ah. So you use off as a way to turn on a particular screensaver?


Also, on a couple of my Squeezeboxes, to turn off my stereo gear (using BottleRocket and IR Blaster). My living room setup (where my JHB dock is) has a nice old receiver that draws ~30 watts when on & doing nothing. And the speakers thump when it comes on. So I'd also rather leave the Squeezebox "off" when it's not playing music to avoid the speaker thumps & keep the receiver from drawing power.

kdf
2007-12-20, 02:46
It means SuperDateTime is telling me the time, temperature, and weather conditions. Much more valuable than the phrase "Now Playing".

-Peter

Hence the screensaver when idle option.
-kdf

cliveb
2007-12-20, 05:08
What do other people expect it to do?
I use Felix's PowerSwitchII plugin so that when my Transporter is turned on, so are the power amps. I prefer not to leave 700W of power amps switched on all the time. So the TP gets switched off when not in use.

I'm not as disturbed by the new menus as Max. It did cause me a brief moment of panic the first time I saw no "Music Library" option, and it took me a few moments to figure out what was going on, but on balance I don't really care either way.

Fifer
2007-12-20, 05:12
I presume that the new behaviour has been introduced for a reason. Do we know what that reason is? It seems to me that the 'no real "off" mode' argument supports the Jive behaving the same way regardless of whether it's off or on.

max.spicer
2007-12-20, 08:25
On Dec 19, 2007, at 3:04 PM,
Here I am.

Don't turn it off. :)

Seriously, you want it off, but also able to browse, etc? What, to
you, does "off" mean?

If I shouldn't care whether the device is on or off, why have you just introduced new steps that force me to turn it on?? I see my Jive remote as an interface to my music, I use it to browse my library and (generally) choose tracks to play. At the time I choose the tracks to play, I'd expect the necessary business of making sure the player is on to be taken care of for me.

Wanting to browse but having the device off is not a contradiction - I'm not wanting to use the player to browse and SqueezeCenter does not run on the player. If I browse my music using the web interface from my laptop, I don't expect any players to turn on. It's the same with the Jive remote.

Off for me means no glowing display, the Transporter's audio circuits being powered down, and my amp being automatically turned off (by IRBlaster). The Amp being off leads to a power saving, but without that I'd still want to be able to turn the player off. I don't want idle screensavers to blank the display - I like the option of an on/off switch.

Max

bklaas
2007-12-20, 08:47
If I shouldn't care whether the device is on or off, why have you just introduced new steps that force me to turn it on?? I see my Jive remote as an interface to my music, I use it to browse my library and (generally) choose tracks to play. At the time I choose the tracks to play, I'd expect the necessary business of making sure the player is on to be taken care of for me.

Wanting to browse but having the device off is not a contradiction - I'm not wanting to use the player to browse and SqueezeCenter does not run on the player. If I browse my music using the web interface from my laptop, I don't expect any players to turn on. It's the same with the Jive remote.

Off for me means no glowing display, the Transporter's audio circuits being powered down, and my amp being automatically turned off (by IRBlaster). The Amp being off leads to a power saving, but without that I'd still want to be able to turn the player off. I don't want idle screensavers to blank the display - I like the option of an on/off switch.

Max

hi Max-

What you describe is basically exactly how I feel too, and it's also how I use the product. I use Felix's über-awesome IRBlaster plugin to power down my amp, so power down has real meaning to me as well. Also like you, I don't see why browsing should be invalid when the player is off.

Just to play devil's advocate though, what do you think the behavior should be if you hit 'play' on a browse item when the player is off? Should it power on the player and play it, or do nothing?

#!/ben

nicketynick
2007-12-20, 08:51
Hence the screensaver when idle option.
-kdf

That's a good point - I never quite sussed that I could get SDT by setting it as the 'when idle' screensaver, and just stopping the music, rather than turning off the player.
But shouldn't the Sleep function be reconfigured, if everything is being set up in such a way that the player isn't normally turned off?

sbjaerum
2007-12-20, 10:28
hi Max-

What you describe is basically exactly how I feel too, and it's also how I use the product. I use Felix's über-awesome IRBlaster plugin to power down my amp, so power down has real meaning to me as well. Also like you, I don't see why browsing should be invalid when the player is off.

Just to play devil's advocate though, what do you think the behavior should be if you hit 'play' on a browse item when the player is off? Should it power on the player and play it, or do nothing?

#!/ben

For what it's worth, my preference is exactly what you suggest. That is, to be able to browse independent of player's power state, and turn it automatically on when the play button is pressed.

erland
2007-12-20, 11:06
If I shouldn't care whether the device is on or off, why have you just introduced new steps that force me to turn it on?? I see my Jive remote as an interface to my music, I use it to browse my library and (generally) choose tracks to play. At the time I choose the tracks to play, I'd expect the necessary business of making sure the player is on to be taken care of for me.

Wanting to browse but having the device off is not a contradiction - I'm not wanting to use the player to browse and SqueezeCenter does not run on the player. If I browse my music using the web interface from my laptop, I don't expect any players to turn on. It's the same with the Jive remote.

I agree, I would also expect it to work as you describe.

What will happen when the audio output on the remote starts to be able to output the music ?

In this scenario I would definitely like to be able to browse the library and play music through the remote audio output without turning on the living room SqueezeBox.

But I guess there might be a player available for selection that represents the Jive remote in this case ?

James
2007-12-20, 13:26
I did mention this some time ago!

I also don't like the new implementation. I would like, as Ben suggests, to still be able to browse my music library (or internet radio) while the Squeezebox is off, and turn it on by starting playback.

James

peterw
2007-12-20, 13:58
I would like, as Ben suggests, to still be able to browse my music library (or internet radio) while the Squeezebox is off, and turn it on by starting playback.


Me, too. BTW, that is how the web interface has worked for ages -- clicking a web Play icon while on a web page for a powered off player powers the player up & starts playback.

<trivia>IIRC that's a special case I had to handle in BottleRocket, that clicking a web Play icon for a powered off player powers the player up (changes $client->power()) without actually calling the 'power' internal command; instead it uses something like 'playlist'.</trivia>

kdf: regarding idlesaver, using "None" for idlesaver helps me see at a glance that my 30-watt receiver is still powered on (it's hidden), which I find helpful.

-Peter

2eleven
2007-12-20, 22:18
I think everyone (except perhaps Dean) is in agreement here, so I'm not sure if there's much point in me chiming in this late, but I'll add another vote for the old way. I want to browse when I grab the remote. I don't want to worry about whether the player is on or off. I shouldn't have to know or care. If it's off, it will turn on when play something.

John

max.spicer
2007-12-21, 02:01
Just to play devil's advocate though, what do you think the behavior should be if you hit 'play' on a browse item when the player is off? Should it power on the player and play it, or do nothing?

It should power up the player and play it. That's what the web interface has always done. If I select Play, I obviously want to play the track. It wouldn't make any sense to ignore that command by leaving the player off.

Max

Siduhe
2007-12-21, 04:38
Apologies if this has been done to death, but another vote for a return to the old Jive menu style. My other half spent a very frustrating 10 minutes before announcing that I'd bricked the b***dy thing again...

In response to kdf's suggestion of using idle (and screensaver when idle) to avoid this situation - wouldn't work so well for us as player off=no or very low brightness (for sleeping) and player idle=not as bright as playing but still visible.

dean
2007-12-21, 07:27
I am humbled by our community again:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6439

Thanks, guys.

Fifer
2007-12-21, 08:12
Thank you Dean, for listening.

dean
2007-12-21, 08:32
On Dec 21, 2007, at 1:01 AM, max.spicer wrote:

>
> bklaas;250351 Wrote:
>> Just to play devil's advocate though, what do you think the behavior
>> should be if you hit 'play' on a browse item when the player is off?
>> Should it power on the player and play it, or do nothing?
>
> It should power up the player and play it. That's what the web
> interface has always done. If I select Play, I obviously want to play
> the track. It wouldn't make any sense to ignore that command by
> leaving the player off.

Also, if you push play on the remote while an SB or Transporter are
off, it will power up and start playing.

All good reasons to separate the player power from the remote UI.

-dean

bklaas
2007-12-21, 09:28
checkin r1248 strips out the new menu behavior.

-when you turn player X off, you should see that item change text from "Turn X off" to "Turn X on". Nothing else should change on the menu.

-if you select an item in a browse menu to be played, player will be turned on and playback will commence.

and there was much rejoicing.

cheers,
#!/ben

bklaas
2007-12-21, 09:32
But I guess there might be a player available for selection that represents the Jive remote in this case ?

I think that's about right. Further, my guess would be this player would not (in the "player" sense) have the ability to power off, so you would not see an item for turning the player on or off. Of course, you could still power down by holding down the home key, but then one would hope that it would be obvious you can't browse your music collection then... :)

cheers,
#!/ben

max.spicer
2007-12-22, 02:16
checkin r1248 strips out the new menu behavior.

-when you turn player X off, you should see that item change text from "Turn X off" to "Turn X on". Nothing else should change on the menu.

-if you select an item in a browse menu to be played, player will be turned on and playback will commence.

and there was much rejoicing.

Thanks Ben and Dean. It's great to be listened to!

Max

oreillymj
2007-12-22, 04:00
Just on a slightly related note.

I have 2 hardware players.
I turned on Jive. It no longer applies a background image like it used to until I go into the Choose Player screen.

I had the "Living Room" SB3 selected on the remote

I then started Softsqueeze on my PC. When I later looked at the remote, the menu item for Turn Off Living Room had changed to Turn Off Softsqueeze.

I'll need to double-check, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

ModelCitizen
2007-12-22, 06:44
And more related...

I control two players and now often have a screen with "Turn Trasporter On" showing when the Transporter is on.

MC

bklaas
2007-12-22, 10:17
Just on a slightly related note.

I have 2 hardware players.
I turned on Jive. It no longer applies a background image like it used to until I go into the Choose Player screen.

I had the "Living Room" SB3 selected on the remote

I then started Softsqueeze on my PC. When I later looked at the remote, the menu item for Turn Off Living Room had changed to Turn Off Softsqueeze.

I'll need to double-check, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

Already fixed. Upgrade to today's firmware!

cheers,
#!/ben

bklaas
2007-12-22, 10:21
whoops, forgot to mention: you should also upgrade your SC to today's daily. The change I made makes the menu notifications player-specific, and there was a change on the SC side to send the player data.

cheers,
#!/ben

p.s. Model Citizen: I think the problem you were reporting should also disappear with this update

oreillymj
2007-12-26, 07:22
Maybe I've missed something, but I'm on

SqueezeCenter Version: 7.0 - 15528 - Windows XP - EN - cp1252
Server IP address: 192.168.2.3
Perl Version: 5.8.8 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
MySQL Version: 5.0.22-community-nt


with Jive FW r1260

When I turn the remote on, the background is green. I have to go into the Choose Player menu for the remote to pick up the background wallpaper setting and apply it.

Also when I go back to Home, with the "Kitchen" player selected, the remote has a menu option "Turn Off Kitchen". However, if I go a PC and start up Softsqueeze, then the menu option changes to "Turn Off Softsqueeze", even though the selected player is still "Kitchen"

bklaas
2007-12-27, 10:35
Maybe I've missed something, but I'm on

SqueezeCenter Version: 7.0 - 15528 - Windows XP - EN - cp1252
Server IP address: 192.168.2.3
Perl Version: 5.8.8 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
MySQL Version: 5.0.22-community-nt


with Jive FW r1260


the player-specific menu notification involved a change on the SC side (checkin 15554).

The version you are running pre-dates that SC change, so you'll need to upgrade your SqueezeCenter.

cheers,
#!/ben

oreillymj
2007-12-28, 07:27
One other problem seems to be back.

If you leave the remote for a period of time, like overnight, and change player, the remote hangs solid, then reboots.

I'll test with the latest nightly/fw to confirm.

Siduhe
2007-12-28, 07:29
One other problem seems to be back.

If you leave the remote for a period of time, like overnight, and change player, the remote hangs solid, then reboots.

I'll test with the latest nightly/fw to confirm.

Exactly the same problem here with the last two nightly firmwares.

ModelCitizen
2007-12-28, 15:54
Exactly the same thing here... but just previously I got into one of the update loops (i.e. did a firmware update when prompted and as soon as it had completed and rebooted it required me to do another).

MC