PDA

View Full Version : Feature Request - Make the digital output optionally fixedlevel



Richard Glaeser
2004-01-25, 14:49
Just joined. Cant wait to put forth my two bits :)
1st one today...
Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most equipment
expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed output
level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My kids keep
adjusting my volume accidently)

Any other takers?
Best regards,
Rich

Jeff Shanholtz
2004-01-26, 07:58
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:57:16 -0000, Karl wrote:

> > Just joined. Cant wait to put forth my two bits :)
> > 1st one today...
> > Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most equipment
> > expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed output
> > level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My kids keep
> > adjusting my volume accidently)
> > Any other takers?
>
> Can do that under player settings in web interface

Asked this before with no response: That setting doesn't appear to exist
for the slimp3. Am I missing it somehow? If not, why doesn't the setting
exist for the slimp3? Dean??? KDF???

Caleb Epstein
2004-01-26, 08:03
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 06:58:09AM -0800, Jeff Shanholtz wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:57:16 -0000, Karl wrote:
>
> > > Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most equipment
> > > expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed output
> > > level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My kids keep
> > > adjusting my volume accidently)
> > > Any other takers?
> >
> > Can do that under player settings in web interface
>
> Asked this before with no response: That setting doesn't appear to exist
> for the slimp3. Am I missing it somehow? If not, why doesn't the setting
> exist for the slimp3? Dean??? KDF???

Um, the SliMP3 doesn't HAVE a digi-out...

--
Caleb Epstein | bklyn . org | Humor in the Court: Q: What is the meaning
cae at | Brooklyn Dust | of sperm being present? A: It indicates
bklyn dot org | Bunny Mfg. | intercourse. Q: Male sperm? A. That is the
| | only kind I know.

Jeff Shanholtz
2004-01-26, 08:21
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:03:16 -0500, Caleb Epstein wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 06:58:09AM -0800, Jeff Shanholtz wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:57:16 -0000, Karl wrote:
>>
>>> > Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most equipment
>>> > expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed output
>>> > level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My kids keep
>>> > adjusting my volume accidently)
>>> > Any other takers?
>>>
>>> Can do that under player settings in web interface
>>
>> Asked this before with no response: That setting doesn't appear to exist
>> for the slimp3. Am I missing it somehow? If not, why doesn't the setting
>> exist for the slimp3? Dean??? KDF???
>
> Um, the SliMP3 doesn't HAVE a digi-out...

What does that have to do with anything? My home theater system has its own
volume control on the amp. Why would I want the slimp3 to have a volume
control too?

Jeff Shanholtz
2004-01-26, 09:14
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:28:46 -0800, Rod Savard wrote:

>> What does that have to do with anything? My home theater system has its
> own
>> volume control on the amp. Why would I want the slimp3 to have a volume
>> control too?
>
> I just set the volume of the SLIMP3 to maximum and never adjust it. I have
> one of those older remotes and I think you can even set it to adjust your
> receiver volume instead of the SLIMP3.
>
> I'm sure there must be a way to disable the volume remote codes so that it
> can never be adjusted with the remote. Would that do what you're looking
> for?
>
> -Rod

Sure, I could go edit the remote codes file (whatever it's called-it's been
a while), but I'm wondering why there is a setting for it for squeezeboxes
but not for slimp3's. It's easier to go to a web page and change the
setting than to go edit some file.

Mark A. Aiken
2004-01-26, 10:15
This thread is kind of confusing. As its subject-line indicates, I
believe the original suggestion was that there should be a setting to fix
the volume level for the *digital outputs* on the SB. As another participant
pointed out, there is already such an option.

There is no existing control, however, that will force the volume level
for the *analog* outputs (RCA jack and headphone socket) on the SB to be
fixed. As far as I know, the volume control for the SB can always be used to
attenuate the analog output.

Since the Slimp3 doesn't *have* digital outputs, only analog outputs,
the Squeezebox folks aren't getting anything that isn't available to you, if
that makes you feel any better.

As a slight digression, I've been curious about something for a little
while: the setting we've been talking about says "Digital output level is
fixed (best analog quality)". Is this a typo, or is this setting really
expected to affect the quality of the *analog* outputs, and if so, why,
since it doesn't affect whether the analog outs are attenuatable via the
volume control?

Mark

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanholtz" <jsubs (AT) shanholtz (DOT) com>
To: <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 8:14 AM
Subject: [slim] Feature Request - Make the digital
outputoptionallyfixedlevel


> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:28:46 -0800, Rod Savard wrote:
>
> >> What does that have to do with anything? My home theater system has its
> > own
> >> volume control on the amp. Why would I want the slimp3 to have a volume
> >> control too?
> >
> > I just set the volume of the SLIMP3 to maximum and never adjust it. I
have
> > one of those older remotes and I think you can even set it to adjust
your
> > receiver volume instead of the SLIMP3.
> >
> > I'm sure there must be a way to disable the volume remote codes so that
it
> > can never be adjusted with the remote. Would that do what you're
looking
> > for?
> >
> > -Rod
>
> Sure, I could go edit the remote codes file (whatever it's called-it's
been
> a while), but I'm wondering why there is a setting for it for squeezeboxes
> but not for slimp3's. It's easier to go to a web page and change the
> setting than to go edit some file.
>
>

kdf
2004-01-26, 10:59
Quoting Jeff Shanholtz <jsubs (AT) shanholtz (DOT) com>:

> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:03:16 -0500, Caleb Epstein wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 06:58:09AM -0800, Jeff Shanholtz wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:57:16 -0000, Karl wrote:
> >>
> >>> > Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most
> equipment
> >>> > expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed
> output
> >>> > level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My kids
> keep
> >>> > adjusting my volume accidently)
> >>> > Any other takers?
> >>>
> >>> Can do that under player settings in web interface
> >>
> >> Asked this before with no response: That setting doesn't appear to exist
> >> for the slimp3. Am I missing it somehow? If not, why doesn't the setting
> >> exist for the slimp3? Dean??? KDF???
> >
> > Um, the SliMP3 doesn't HAVE a digi-out...
>
> What does that have to do with anything? My home theater system has its own
> volume control on the amp. Why would I want the slimp3 to have a volume
> control too?

The digital volume setting is for controlling the digital gains on the digital
outputs. It is NOT a setting for fixed analog. This is a side-effect since
adjusting digital gain causes some sort of adjustment in the analog gain and
vice versa. So a fixed case had to be set in order to make it work properly.
What is has to do with....is that digital out has nothing to do with slimp3,
thus the setting does not exist.

Sean can better explain why the squeezebox hardware reuqires this. I forget the
exact details.
-kdf

Ken
2004-01-26, 20:31
I stream only WAV files and use a high quality DAC at the other end, and the digital output of the unit is really extremely poor quality relative to the original WAV source. Apparently, the processing for the digital volume cannot reproduce the nuances of the audio information of the source, and the fidelity of the output suffers significantly for this.

I didn't know about the fixed volume option, but it would be interesting to know whether setting this option will cause the unit to retain the purity of the source, or simply continue to use the processor and hold the volume at maximum. A pure digital output was my only requirement for this unit, and so far it hasn't succeeded in providing that.

Ken

Richard Glaeser wrote:
> Just joined. Cant wait to put forth my two bits :)
> 1st one today...
> Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most equipment
> expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed output
> level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My kids keep
> adjusting my volume accidently)
>
> Any other takers?
> Best regards,
> Rich
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

seanadams
2004-01-27, 11:15
Squeezebox has two volume control mechanisms, digital and analog. Which
you should use depends on how you want the system to work. I think most
people expect volume control to "just work", which is why, by default,
we do volume control only on the digital signal - that way it affects
both the digital and analog outputs.

However, for best sound quality, it is preferable to keep the digital
gain at 0 and only apply volume control electrically, on the analog
signal. This gives full dynamic range for the digital signal, whether
it's going through the s/pdif output or being converted to analog.
However, using this mode prevents the volume control from having any
affect on the digital outputs - it is simply not possible to adjust
volume on the s/pdif output without processing the signal (i.e. it
doesn't provide for out-of-band signalling of the desired volume
level).

SLIMP3, by the way, only has digital volume control, which is why this
setting is moot (or at least it would have very different semantics).
Disabling digital volume control on SLIMP3 would be to disable volume
control altogether - of course there are good reasons for doing that so
I agree we should put a setting there.

On Jan 26, 2004, at 9:59 AM, kdf wrote:

> Quoting Jeff Shanholtz <jsubs (AT) shanholtz (DOT) com>:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:03:16 -0500, Caleb Epstein wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 06:58:09AM -0800, Jeff Shanholtz wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:57:16 -0000, Karl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most
>> equipment
>>>>>> expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable fixed
>> output
>>>>>> level to equalize with other components would be nice too. (My
>>>>>> kids
>> keep
>>>>>> adjusting my volume accidently)
>>>>>> Any other takers?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can do that under player settings in web interface
>>>>
>>>> Asked this before with no response: That setting doesn't appear to
>>>> exist
>>>> for the slimp3. Am I missing it somehow? If not, why doesn't the
>>>> setting
>>>> exist for the slimp3? Dean??? KDF???
>>>
>>> Um, the SliMP3 doesn't HAVE a digi-out...
>>
>> What does that have to do with anything? My home theater system has
>> its own
>> volume control on the amp. Why would I want the slimp3 to have a
>> volume
>> control too?
>
> The digital volume setting is for controlling the digital gains on the
> digital
> outputs. It is NOT a setting for fixed analog. This is a side-effect
> since
> adjusting digital gain causes some sort of adjustment in the analog
> gain and
> vice versa. So a fixed case had to be set in order to make it work
> properly.
> What is has to do with....is that digital out has nothing to do with
> slimp3,
> thus the setting does not exist.
>
> Sean can better explain why the squeezebox hardware reuqires this. I
> forget the
> exact details.
> -kdf
>

seanadams
2004-01-27, 11:19
With volume control set to max (or digital volume fixed) the bits on
the wire are precisely what a CD player would output.


On Jan 26, 2004, at 7:31 PM, Ken wrote:

> I stream only WAV files and use a high quality DAC at the other end,
> and the digital output of the unit is really extremely poor quality
> relative to the original WAV source. Apparently, the processing for
> the digital volume cannot reproduce the nuances of the audio
> information of the source, and the fidelity of the output suffers
> significantly for this.
>
> I didn't know about the fixed volume option, but it would be
> interesting to know whether setting this option will cause the unit to
> retain the purity of the source, or simply continue to use the
> processor and hold the volume at maximum. A pure digital output was my
> only requirement for this unit, and so far it hasn't succeeded in
> providing that.
>
> Ken
>
> Richard Glaeser wrote:
>> Just joined. Cant wait to put forth my two bits :)
>> 1st one today...
>> Feature Request - Make the digital output a fixed level. Most
>> equipment expects a fixed level input for all sources. An adjustable
>> fixed output level to equalize with other components would be nice
>> too. (My kids keep adjusting my volume accidently)
>> Any other takers?
>> Best regards,
>> Rich
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>

Caleb Epstein
2004-01-27, 11:39
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 10:19:07AM -0800, Sean Adams wrote:

> With volume control set to max (or digital volume fixed) the bits on
> the wire are precisely what a CD player would output.

Not to throw stones, but have you actually verified this
(e.g. recorded the digital output and compared the results
bit-for-bit with the original WAV)?

--
Caleb Epstein | bklyn . org | Do you think that illiterate people get the
cae at | Brooklyn Dust | full effect of alphabet soup?
bklyn dot org | Bunny Mfg. |

Simon
2004-01-27, 15:08
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 05:02:19PM -0500, Richard wrote:
> Ok.. I am using the Squeezebox hardware and server. I think I'm loosing my
> vision. I cant see any reference to disabling adjustable volume control. Can
> someone point me in the proper direction?

From web-ui start page:
* Player Settings for XXX
* Digital Volume Control (third from the top).

The option is fairly new so you might need to upgrade slimserver.

--
Simon

Ken
2004-01-28, 03:11
I picked up the latest server software and device firmware tonight, and used the server web setting to fix the digital volume. The quality of the sound from my DAC is *dramatically* improved over the processed digital output, so it does indeed appear as though the bits are being passed through much closer to the source with this setting. I have no way to actually compare the bit streams to test for accuracy, but empirically the sound I'm now getting from the Squeezebox is better than I get from using the transport directly. My primary goal in purchasing the Squeezebox was to use it as a transport replacement, and it finally does seem to be accomplishing that.

Thanks to the Slim Devices guys for making sure the digital side of the world is working properly. Now, as for a digital volume control, who in the world would need this?

Ken

Caleb Epstein wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 10:19:07AM -0800, Sean Adams wrote:
>
>
>>With volume control set to max (or digital volume fixed) the bits on
>>the wire are precisely what a CD player would output.
>
>
> Not to throw stones, but have you actually verified this
> (e.g. recorded the digital output and compared the results
> bit-for-bit with the original WAV)?
>

Caleb Epstein
2004-01-28, 06:49
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:11:19AM -0800, Ken wrote:

> I picked up the latest server software and device firmware tonight,
> and used the server web setting to fix the digital volume. The
> quality of the sound from my DAC is *dramatically* improved over the
> processed digital output, so it does indeed appear as though the
> bits are being passed through much closer to the source with this
> setting.

I'm unclear on what you mean by the "processed digital
output". Do you mean the analog outputs?

> Thanks to the Slim Devices guys for making sure the digital side of the
> world is working properly. Now, as for a digital volume control, who in the
> world would need this?

I have wondered the same thing myself. Seems like you would
always want the digi-out at the same fixed level.

--
Caleb Epstein | bklyn . org | Sometimes a man who deserves to be looked
cae at | Brooklyn Dust | down upon because he is a fool is despised
bklyn dot org | Bunny Mfg. | only because he is a lawyer.
| | -- Montesquieu

T
2004-01-28, 07:34
> > Thanks to the Slim Devices guys for making sure the digital side of the
> > world is working properly. Now, as for a digital volume control, who in
the
> > world would need this?
>
> I have wondered the same thing myself. Seems like you would
> always want the digi-out at the same fixed level.

The only reason for having a digital volume control is if you are using
powered speakers with digital inputs and no volume control of their own.

While such a situation is rare in the home environment, it is common in
professional recording and broadcast studios, and most digital mixing
consoles do in fact control monitor output volume digitally for this reason
(as a designer/manufacturer of professional digital mixing consoles, I know
this for a fact).

If this is not the case, you are better off leaving the digital control at
unity gain and controlling the volume in the analog domain.

Tom

Caleb Epstein
2004-01-28, 08:04
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 03:34:09PM +0100, T wrote:

> If this is not the case, you are better off leaving the digital
> control at unity gain and controlling the volume in the analog
> domain.

Fair enough, but this has the unfortunate side-effect of
making the headphone jack output at zero or near-zero volume.
Is this a bug or just a limitation of the design?

--
Caleb Epstein | bklyn . org | All my friends and I are crazy. That's the
cae at | Brooklyn Dust | only thing that keeps us sane.
bklyn dot org | Bunny Mfg. |

Ken
2004-01-28, 10:13
Caleb Epstein wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:11:19AM -0800, Ken wrote:
>
>
>>I picked up the latest server software and device firmware tonight,
>>and used the server web setting to fix the digital volume. The
>>quality of the sound from my DAC is *dramatically* improved over the
>>processed digital output, so it does indeed appear as though the
>>bits are being passed through much closer to the source with this
>>setting.
>
>
> I'm unclear on what you mean by the "processed digital
> output". Do you mean the analog outputs?

I was making an assumption here that processing of the signal is required for implementing a digital volume control. The difference in the sound from my DAC between enabling the digital volume and not is dramatic, so I presumed that to implement volume control the signal was being processed. I'm not certain how else to account for the differences.