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MrSinatra
2007-11-09, 13:41
interesting cnet article about where this guy see's the future of audio...

i think SS could learn from this.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6799489-1.html?tag=nl.e404

andyg
2007-11-09, 13:46
Wireless audio? Hmm, that sounds familiar. ;)

MrSinatra
2007-11-09, 13:48
haha, of course, the difference is portability and storage in colorful palm.

you have to admit the idea of having a small walkman like thing that could transit to your stereo or car radio via a wireless standard is very appealing.

snarlydwarf
2007-11-09, 14:23
you have to admit the idea of having a small walkman like thing that could transit to your stereo or car radio via a wireless standard is very appealing.

Sure but it's an arms race between "how fast can storage grow in small form factors" vs "how fast can I acquire music"

So far, I am well ahead of the flash and HD manufacturers.

MrSinatra
2007-11-09, 14:26
but think outside the box just a bit...

these devices already have wifi built in as well.

SS could stream to it, so the portable device becomes the SB.

in fact, if these portable devices can stream via wifi, you could use SS right now! all thats missing is using the device to control SS.

snarlydwarf
2007-11-09, 14:34
but think outside the box just a bit...

? Sorry, I was going by what was in the article...



these devices already have wifi built in as well.

SS could stream to it, so the portable device becomes the SB.

The article isn't at all about that, though, it is about using the iPod-type device as a sort of music server... wirelessly sending music to your car stereo or bluetooth headphones... maybe to your home stereo from the iPod, making the iPod itself a remote control (the "docking stations" for iPods are usually pretty lame because the remote control abilities are little-to-none)

If you want a portable SB that you can fit into your pocket...

The Jive remote has a headphone plug....



in fact, if these portable devices can stream via wifi, you could use SS right now! all thats missing is using the device to control SS.

They can't... they do bluetooth and they don't receive, they send (so if you are odd and wander around Borg'd up with bluetooth headphones everywhere, you can listen to music without swapping headphones off and on).

If SoftSqueeze can run on the Jive... forget the SB-Boombox.. the Jive would be more useful. And even nice while mowing the lawn.

MrSinatra
2007-11-09, 14:49
i wasn't saying read the article in a vaccuum, we all know a lot here and i was saying lets apply what we all know to the concepts in the article. i don't want ideas constricted to only whats in the article.

if we accept that a device can send decent audio via bluetooth to a stereo, a car stereo, or headphones, and that it can store some music as well, (& do AM/FM) then we are close to a product i'd like to have.

i do not own any of these portable deals, but i have used the new touch ipod. it has built in wifi, and can browse the web, etc... so can some of these other products.

so whats missing?

i do not yet know of any product that can use its wifi capability to stream, but i am not as certain as you that none can. more importantly, i am sure some WILL be able to, at some near future point. its pretty much inevitable, is it not? i mean we are talking about audio players that already have wifi, right?

given such a scenario, one could stream to such a device via SS. and at that point, your whole library is available, and you would additionally have the ability to take some of it with you portably.

so really, the only thing missing at that point, would be the ability to control SS remotely via the device. but even that could be done via the devices wifi/browser functionality. (and the touch ipod for instance had a pretty fully featured browser).

i'm not trying to make slim obsolete, but you could see how it could become so pretty quick given what i wrote above. my hope is that slim recognizes this, and starts work about some of the things i've been suggesting for a long time. (not an ego thing, i just want to see slim put out a dream type project)

i have to say i do not know anything about jive, and i'm confused by it. are there any links about it? pics? explanations?

i know right now there is sb3, and transporter. so jive is next. will all 3 use SS 7.0? is it going to get a new name? SC 7.0? is the jive platform different from 7.0?

its exciting to me to hear that this jive thing will have a headphone jack. will it also have a color screen? will it have any onboard storage? bluetooth?

aubuti
2007-11-09, 15:23
i have to say i do not know anything about jive, and i'm confused by it. are there any links about it? pics? explanations?
Try one of the "sticky" threads at the top of this forum, or the forum for jive-specific info (http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19)

snarlydwarf
2007-11-09, 16:06
if we accept that a device can send decent audio via bluetooth to a stereo, a car stereo, or headphones, and that it can store some music as well, (& do AM/FM) then we are close to a product i'd like to have.

Change bluetooth to 802.11g. I don't care about AM/FM or storage.



i do not own any of these portable deals, but i have used the new touch ipod. it has built in wifi, and can browse the web, etc... so can some of these other products.

I see the web enough... I rarely use the web browser on my nokia...



so whats missing?

i do not yet know of any product that can use its wifi capability to stream, but i am not as certain as you that none can. more importantly, i am sure some WILL be able to, at some near future point. its pretty much inevitable, is it not? i mean we are talking about audio players that already have wifi, right?

Where did I say that none can? My Nokia can stream via wifi if I wanted it to.



so really, the only thing missing at that point, would be the ability to control SS remotely via the device. but even that could be done via the devices wifi/browser functionality. (and the touch ipod for instance had a pretty fully featured browser).

Jive...



i'm not trying to make slim obsolete, but you could see how it could become so pretty quick given what i wrote above. my hope is that slim recognizes this, and starts work about some of the things i've been suggesting for a long time. (not an ego thing, i just want to see slim put out a dream type project)


I didn't say you are "trying to make slim obsolete"... in fact, you have fairly closely describe the jive beta toy. No real storage on it (though I guess you could use the secret SD card for that...) Slim is in this case way ahead of you and has at least dev hardware working for most of this.



its exciting to me to hear that this jive thing will have a headphone jack. will it also have a color screen? will it have any onboard storage? bluetooth?

yes, yes, no.

(bluetooth is dumb when you have 802.11g... unless you like being borged with bluetooth phone headsets all day... I can deal with a headphone cable.)

erland
2007-11-09, 16:23
I think it is the combination that will be the strength.

Scenario 1.
In my home I like to be able to listen to my whole library. A portable device will never have enough memory, so I really think we also in the future will see a home storage that is some sort of computer or external USB disk or similar.

Scenario 2.
In my home I like to listen on the stereo with full sound quality, that is uncompressed music. However, I think most people in the new generation don't really care about audio quality this much, they will settle with compressed MP3 files and don't really need a big stereo to listen to their music.

Scenario 3.
In the garden I also like to listen to my whole library, but here the sound quality doesn't have high priority. A compressed MP3 file will be fine in this situation. Of course I like to be able to change tracks and select what to listen to in the same way as I'm able to do in the living room.

Scenario 4.
When I leave the house I like to take part of my library with me. The optimal solution would of course be to take the whole library, but the storage space on a portable device is never going to be large enough. When leaving the house there are at least three different listening positions:
Scenario 4.1: In the car
Scenario 4.2: Within Wifi/3G range
Scenario 4.3: Outside Wifi/3G range

Scenario 5.
I already have both the iPod Touch and the Jive prototype remote. Having used both these devices I can say that the improvement of a large screen compared to the two line display on the SB is huge. This is especially the case when you are searching for something to listen but you don't know exactly what you want. Unfortunately the browsing functions in SS/SC to find stuff when you don't know exactly what you are looking for, isn't really good enough yet.

Scenario 6.
I like to be able to purchase new music in all the above mentioned listening positions. When doing this I like to get a lossy compressed version suitable for the portable device but also lossless version suitable for the home stereo. Of course, even though I still like to purchase music so I own it, this might not be the future. The future is probably a solution similar to Pandora where you pay a monthly fee to listen to what you like.

Logitech has already covered some of these points with SC7 and the Jive remote. More specifically:
Scenario 1: Covered with SS or SC7
Scenario 2: Covered with SB/Transporter
Scenario 3: Covered with the Jive remote (if it starts to support the headphone output.)
Scenario 4.1: Not covered at all
Scenario 4.2: Not covered at all (The Jive remote doesn't have the correct physical format)
Scenario 4.3: Not covered at all
Scenario 5: Covered with the Jive remote (although the iPod Touch is so much cooler in comparison). The thing that is missing regarding this scenario is improved ways of browsing your library.
Scenario 6: Not covered at all (at least not outside US)

So the main missing pieces for me is really a portable device that works together with SlimServer/SqueezeCenter and of course the music store connection. The iPod doesn't really solve this case because it requires you to manage two libraries (iTunes + SC) and it requires you to manually handle two file formats (lossless + lossy).

I've had the iPod Touch for a few days now and one thing I miss is the wireless headphones option. The idea of having a cord between your pocket and ear is really one of the things that doesn't feel good.

MrSinatra
2007-11-09, 19:44
Change bluetooth to 802.11g. I don't care about AM/FM or storage.

surely u understand tho that many others do, as evident by the success of such devices.

i say why not let them do both?


I see the web enough... I rarely use the web browser on my nokia...

the point is they could control SS via the web browser.


Where did I say that none can?

you said "They can't" above...


My Nokia can stream via wifi if I wanted it to.

well ok then... so we know then that there are portable devices, with color screens and with wifi and with bluetooth that can stream music and so can receive music via SS.

thats awesome. its just too bad slim isn't making the hardware to do it [yet].


Jive...

I didn't say you are "trying to make slim obsolete"...

i know, i was just saying that in general. its just that a SB is obsolete or will be soon, given the facts.


in fact, you have fairly closely describe the jive beta toy. No real storage on it (though I guess you could use the secret SD card for that...) Slim is in this case way ahead of you and has at least dev hardware working for most of this.

awesome, (altho i have been promoting this idea for years, not just in this thread).


yes, yes, no.

so yes to secret storage then?


(bluetooth is dumb when you have 802.11g... unless you like being borged with bluetooth phone headsets all day... I can deal with a headphone cable.)

not if you're in the car or at someone elses place or whatever, (or borged). bluetooth is MUCH easier to deal with than wifi, (assuming its secured).

if it has storage, its a missed opportuinty to not have bluetooth.

funkstar
2007-11-09, 23:11
I've just skipped through this thread and haven't read all the posts, but here is some food for thought.

In the next couple of months i'll be replacing my mobile for an HTC TyTN II (also known as Kaiser, Tilt, Vario 3 and a couple of others i can't remember). This has stereo Bluetooth, 802.11g, and high speed 3G (3.5Mbit i think). Combined with a good data tarrif on t-mobile, i'll probably use it to stream audio from SS at home to my bluetooth enabled car stereo or bluetooth headphone when i'm out and about.

It also takes microSD cards which are up to 6GB right now, and increasing all the time (technically up to 2TB :P).

Now, if Jive could be ported to WM6 with an internal player...

snarlydwarf
2007-11-10, 00:08
s
you said "They can't" above...


Not with what was described in the article... are you talking about the article or about a fantasy device.

There is no iPod that will play streams except for the iTouch.

NONE.

That is what the article you cited stated. You know, the one you now say to ignore because you really meant something else...



i know, i was just saying that in general. its just that a SB is obsolete or will be soon, given the facts.


In general everything will be obsolete. Wow.

I give up.

MrSinatra
2007-11-10, 00:18
Not with what was described in the article... are you talking about the article or about a fantasy device.

There is no iPod that will play streams except for the iTouch.

NONE.

That is what the article you cited stated. You know, the one you now say to ignore because you really meant something else...


do you have a problem with me?

look buddy, the context of the conversation is clear, as is the article. i only said devices, and the article talked about more than the ipod. try reading.

i never asserted an ipod did have the ability to stream from wifi sources, NEVER.

i never said ignore the article or that i meant something else. i have corrected you b/c you can't follow me apparently. thats your problem, as i was clear.

look, all i'm doing is saying here's an article, here's what we know on our end, here is a product i can easily imagine coming together given these facts, what does anyone else think?

why you want to hate on it all for no reason i can see is something known only to you.


In general everything will be obsolete. Wow.

I give up.

i didn't realize there was a battle being waged. ur real pleasent to be around.

snarlydwarf
2007-11-10, 00:24
look, all i'm doing is saying here's an article, here's what we know on our end, here is a product i can easily imagine coming together given these facts, what does anyone else think?

No, you said "here is an article that describes the future" and then when I commented on it you said, "no, think out of the box, I was really describing something else and ignore that article.

Go back and read post #1 in this thread and tell me where you said "here is a product I can easily imaging coming together given these facts"

You didn't.

Yes, I am such an ass. I expect people to say what they mean and mean what they say: if you really MEANT "here is a product" then why not SAY that instead of pointing to an article that you then say isn't at all what you were talking about...

MrSinatra
2007-11-10, 00:32
Yes, I am such an ass.

agreed.

:)


No, you said "here is an article that describes the future"

thats not what i said.

i said here is a cnet guys vision of it, and u can go back and see that for yourself.


and then when I commented on it you said, "no, think out of the box, I was really describing something else and ignore that article.

no, that is not what happened.

anyone can go back and read the beginning of the thread and see what happened, let the reader decide.

but you commented on what i said, not the article, (you quoted me) and it was only after that i said think outside the box.

don't get pissy at me b/c ur wrong.


Go back and read post #1 in this thread and tell me where you said "here is a product I can easily imaging coming together given these facts"

You didn't.

no, it was post #3 BEFORE you posted a damn thing.

TRY READING.


Yes, I am such an ass. I expect people to say what they mean and mean what they say: if you really MEANT "here is a product" then why not SAY that instead of pointing to an article that you then say isn't at all what you were talking about...

you don't like being wrong, do you?

snarlydwarf
2007-11-10, 00:48
you don't like being wrong, do you?

You have yet to say where I was wrong...

Post#3 echo'd the article: an iPod that streams to your car stereo.... It says NOTHING about a portable media device that -receives- streams from a server.

Unless, I guess you call a car stereo a portable media device and an iPod a server...

AFTER that, I pointed out that a portable device does not have sufficent storage, and my music buying outpaces storage growth.

And THEN you posted that the roles should be reversed with the portable device -receiving- from a server....

Quit being pissy and learn to read yourself.

At least when you refer to "post #3" make sure it contains what you say it does.


no, it was post #3 BEFORE you posted a damn thing.

TRY READING.


Post #3, again:


haha, of course, the difference is portability and storage in colorful palm.

you have to admit the idea of having a small walkman like thing that could transit to your stereo or car radio via a wireless standard is very appealing.

WHERE does that talk about a portable device recieving a stream?

Oh, wait, it doesn't. It talks about a walkman transmitting to your stereo wirelessly... just like the article you cited....

I can read quite well, actually... can you?

MrSinatra
2007-11-10, 00:50
ur a trip dude, lay off the meds.

u keep setting up strawmen and think they're fact. get a clue.

erland
2007-11-10, 02:01
Please, could we get back to the idea of the thread instead of arguing about what we have previously said/not said.

There are stationary devices like the SB/Transporter and there are portable devices like the iPod and there are the inbetween devices like the Jive remote. Some or all of them might have a future, IMHO it all depends on how well they are going to work together.

So, what's your opinion on how you like the future of music listening to be ?

MrSinatra
2007-11-10, 02:09
all i can say is i didn't pick the fight.

if i had the following in my next device, i'd be happy:

portable style device, color screen, wifi, bluetooth, headphone jack, onboard storage, am/fm, ability to stream via wifi, browser, and maybe some remote rf capability.

with such a device, one could use it like a normal mp3 player, but also could use it like a SB since it could receive stream from SS. it could also be used on a car or stereo via bluetooth or perhaps being jacked in via wire, or perhaps in conjunction with a second device that would be a displayless "dumb terminal" for the many stereos that today don't have bluetooth. (not to mention the purists who want pure uncompressed digital)

i don't see why anyone would be against such a device, esp since as we've established, all these bits and pieces exist already.

what i don't like about the SB/SS solution is the total lack of portability. yes, i can remote into SS if i setup ddns and all that, but how many people want to run a laptop in the car with a verizon card just to get their tunes streamed to them from home? i want something i can jog with, gym, run to the car with, plane etc... and it doesn't have to have EVERYTHING (ie. my whole collection) all the time.

now, the above is my practical todays vision, obviously a dream product would have huge storage yet remain small, and make SS more or less unnecessary. but thats a long ways off i think.

funkstar
2007-11-10, 23:12
portable style device, color screen, wifi, bluetooth, headphone jack, onboard storage, am/fm, ability to stream via wifi, browser, and maybe some remote rf capability.
Other than AM/FM and RF, Smartphones do all these things :D

edit: and with 3G or a wifi data connection, you can get any itnernet radio streams or a direct AlienBBC feed from your slimserver at home. So no need for AM/FM :)

erland
2007-11-10, 23:40
Do we really want an "all in one" device ?
My experience is that devices that tries to do everything often end up doing nothing or very few things really good.

The listening situation in the living room is quite different from the listening situation when you are out jogging. So I'm not sure the same device would be the best suitable for both situations.

In the living room:
- the device doesn't have to be small
- it needs to have great audio output
- it needs to be suitable to connect to the home stereo
- it would be preferable if it had a display so everyone in the living room could see what is playing
- it needs to have access to the music libraries of the whole family
- the abilities to browse the music library needs to be great
- it needs to stay in the living room if one family member leaves the house

When outside jogging:
- the device needs to be small and light weight
- it needs to have good audio output but not great
- it needs to be suitable to connect to headphones
- it just needs a small display
- it needs to have access to music for a few hours listening
- it needs to work without Wifi access
- limited browsing capabilities would be enough

I'm a bit afraid that if we wish for a device that should do all these things really good we will end up with an expensive device and each family member needs their own plus an extra one for the living room.

I think a preferable scenario would be multiple devices where each device type is suitable for a specific purpose, where the different devices works good together. Maybe something like:
- A living room device
- A portable device
- A car device (or maybe just a docking station combined with the portable device)

MrSinatra
2007-11-10, 23:56
Other than AM/FM and RF, Smartphones do all these things :D

edit: and with 3G or a wifi data connection, you can get any itnernet radio streams or a direct AlienBBC feed from your slimserver at home. So no need for AM/FM :)

am/fm can be good here in america, more variety than ye ole bbc.

2 Qs on the smartphone...

is the audio handled as HQ?

and

can it receive a stream via wifi and simultaneously serve it out via bluetooth?

funkstar
2007-11-11, 10:19
am/fm can be good here in america, more variety than ye ole bbc.

2 Qs on the smartphone...

is the audio handled as HQ?

and

can it receive a stream via wifi and simultaneously serve it out via bluetooth?
I'm perhaps blinkered in my radio usage because i only listen to AlienBBC or DAB digital radio in my car :)

Using Bluetooth and wireless at the same time just depends on the phones software, but yes, in general, they are indipendant and you can stream data over wifi or 3G while sending audio over Bluetooth.

I'm not 100%, but i think the audio stream is decoded on the phone and then send as PCM to the headset or reciever. I have a SonyEricsson P990i right now, the audio output on it is terrible. But when used with stereo bluetooth headphone, it is actually very good. I think any limitation is going to be waht you can reliably stream to the device from the internet :)

lrossouw
2008-07-15, 07:34
What I would love is music player with Squeezebox type screen/interface (or better) in my car (with a built in library). Once I get home it would realise that it is at home and automatically use wifi or other means to sync with my music library and with whatever playlist I tell it to, shuffling the music if the playlist is larger than the storage on the device. I would imagine it would replace the regular Radio/CD player and should at least have regular radio too.

autopilot
2008-07-15, 10:52
What I would love is music player with Squeezebox type screen/interface (or better) in my car (with a built in library). Once I get home it would realise that it is at home and automatically use wifi or other means to sync with my music library and with whatever playlist I tell it to, shuffling the music if the playlist is larger than the storage on the device. I would imagine it would replace the regular Radio/CD player and should at least have regular radio too.

You mean an iPod touch / iPhone?

lrossouw
2008-07-16, 00:33
You mean an iPod touch / iPhone?

no, like a car radio that talks to my pc automatically (assuming wifi reaches my garage) and has a nice interface. i think parrot has something along these lines (nice interface not the syncing to pc).

i listen to music at home and in my car. don't really need a mp3 player.

JimC
2008-07-16, 13:56
all i can say is i didn't pick the fight.

if i had the following in my next device, i'd be happy:

portable style device, color screen, wifi, bluetooth, headphone jack, onboard storage, am/fm, ability to stream via wifi, browser, and maybe some remote rf capability.

With the exception of AM and Bluetooth, this is an iPod Touch with the Radio Remote. Add a car stereo system with an iPod dock, or a third-party FM Transmitter, and you can do virtually everything you are looking for. Use Pippin's iPeng plug-in and you can control SC/SN, too. The only downside to this solution is having to use wired earphones... but there are options for that, too (like the Logitech FreePulse headphones).

If you pull out the requirement for AM/FM, most of the new 3G+ "iPhone killer" phones would pretty much match *exactly* what you're looking for, including SC/SN control via the web interface.

Convergence--much ballyhooed since 1999--is finally upon us.


-=> Jim

Nonreality
2008-07-16, 22:13
I want my phone, first and foremost, to be a phone. Just that, thank you. In my opinion they already try to be too much and fail in most cases to be a good and simple phone. Someone said portables will never have enough storage? How much do you need for portable? 80gb right now and more to come. I think you will have enough, if not right now, then soon. I don't really want one device that if it fails takes down my entire music and phone situation. I don't mind having a decent phone, my 80gb Ipod classic and my SB3 to deal with my different needs. I don't think I'm alone in this either. All of this can be improved of course, I'd rather have a 80gb touch so I could use it with my sb but I'm sure thats coming. All in one is cool but just like the swiss army knives, anyone who knows anything about knives knows they are just ok. And that they don't do anything, including being a knife, rather well.

autopilot
2008-07-17, 01:34
no, like a car radio that talks to my pc automatically (assuming wifi reaches my garage) and has a nice interface. i think parrot has something along these lines (nice interface not the syncing to pc).

i listen to music at home and in my car. don't really need a mp3 player.

What I mean is using an iPod touch to store the music, with an Alpine X100 head-unit with its iPod dock and "Full Speed" connectivity. You have full control over the iPod via its color screen, and as it also keep the iPod charged you can stash the iPod away. And the touch can sync with tunes over WiFi when you get home.

http://shop.audioimages.co.uk/images/imagecache/380x125_iDA-X100.jpg

That basically achieves exactly what you want, although not exactly cheap, its a far cry from the days of $2,000 CD changers.