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nicketynick
2007-10-24, 10:05
You can now get a $99 "ZoneBridge", which is basically the wireless mesh access point; add a ZonePlayer 80 at your stereo ($349), and the fancy remote ($399 - too expensive, I'm sure SD is planning to be better....), and you've got the basic system that SB3/SC provides, at a price that puts it much closer to being in a position to take away market share.
IMO SB3 is the superior solution, but its interesting to watch how the market develops.

Mark Lanctot
2007-10-24, 10:15
Back in the Slim Devices days, I always suspected Sonos was larger than Slim - I had no idea why.

But now the tables have definitely turned. Logitech has much, much deeper pockets than Sonos does and certainly has the R&D capability and marketing dollars to crush Sonos. Sonos is now the bit player.

Logitech is not standing still in this department either, it looks like there are big changes coming.

mvalera
2007-10-24, 10:28
At $850 I wouldn't call it much closer to $299.

radish
2007-10-24, 10:34
At $850 I wouldn't call it much closer to $299.

Exactly what I was thinking, particularly as Sonos still requires a machine running to hold all the data.

nicketynick
2007-10-24, 11:01
$850 to $299 isn't quite apples-to-apples, I think you also need to factor in an additional cost for the fancy remote (JHB-like?)on the SB3 side - so maybe it's $850 to $499? It is certainly evidence of evolution in the market, anyway.....

SuperQ
2007-10-24, 12:17
Exactly what I was thinking, particularly as Sonos still requires a machine running to hold all the data.

Not really.. Sonos devices can talk to NAS directly, instead of having to have something like slimserver running. Of course this limits you to the horsepower of the Sonos device for everything. Ok for small libraries, not so good for large ones.

Empgamer
2007-10-24, 13:06
I think it is very important to consider like with like when comparing. In the UK 2 x SB3 and a Nokia 800 style controller would now be around 530. A similar Sonos package 770 (if you wanted the bridge to not have the one ZP wired). That's still some difference but it's closer. The NAS would be an optional extra for both. For me though, I'm not sure what the Sonos actually does better to earn that extra 200/$400. I can actually think of some things it doesn't do, or doesn't do as well, hence my reason for going with the SB.

James_B
2007-10-24, 13:34
How about its mesh network, better NAS functionality, sexy dedicated controller, and alleged better analogue sound quality (according to some reviews)? plus i think the n800 price you calculated is a limited promotion.

On the other hand Sonos has no display on its units and won't play (as far as I am aware) BBC outside the UK or listen-again, or allow any plug-ins.

I really like my SB3s but I am no flag waver - I think competition is a good thing and keeps products evolving.

peter
2007-10-24, 13:39
James_B wrote:
> How about its mesh network, better NAS functionality, sexy dedicated
> controller, and alleged better analogue sound quality (according to
> some reviews)? plus i think the n800 price you calculated is a limited
> promotion.
>

The Jive hardware is of course much more promising than the N800...

> On the other hand Sonos has no display on its units and won't play (as
> far as I am aware) BBC outside the UK or listen-again, or allow any
> plug-ins.
>
> I really like my SB3s but I am no flag waver - I think competition is a
> good thing and keeps products evolving.
>

The main thing for me is that the Sonos is a closed and static design,
while my old 'slimp3' still grows new features with every new plugin and
every new slimserver version *and* I can tinker with it myself. If
price wasn't an issue I think I'd advise non-technical friends to get a
Sonos. The ones that are a little more technically inclined should get
an SB3. Definitely...

Regards,
Peter

iPhone
2007-10-24, 14:37
Actually Mark, they are both "BIT" players! As in ones and zeros, anyway Sonus is moving closer to tail end Charlie, is still over priced, and still less of a product then SB. of course this is all my very baised opinion after spending 6 months to decide which Network Player to purchase and having decided on Slim Devices. Slim Devices was already pushing the envelope and with Logitech behind them, there should be new things on the horizon that are going to put pressure on all the other bit players in the market.

Biggest thing I can think of immediately is the fact that Logitech owns the Harmony brand. I think we are going to see a huge difference in future remotes for both SB and TP. If I were Logitech, I would put a small 5x7 ad of the TP on one side and SB on the other inside every Harmony Remote they sell and maybe even the computer products they sell because those buyers have a PC for sure and are half way to enjoying network audio. Cross branding and cross promoting would make SB sales soar and add to TP sales in some fashion. For what its worth that my 10 (read in bits)cents.

aubuti
2007-10-24, 15:00
Not really.. Sonos devices can talk to NAS directly, instead of having to have something like slimserver running. Of course this limits you to the horsepower of the Sonos device for everything. Ok for small libraries, not so good for large ones.
Not sure I get you here about talking directly to the NAS. There's still a software layer with Sonos+NAS; I presume it's UPnP, although I guess it could be something else. And, even though Sonos can run on a wider variety of NASs, slimserver does run on many NASs, with the same horsepower caveat as Sonos.

Mark Lanctot
2007-10-24, 15:21
Actually Mark, they are both "BIT" players! As in ones and zeros

;-)


Biggest thing I can think of immediately is the fact that Logitech owns the Harmony brand. I think we are going to see a huge difference in future remotes for both SB and TP.

You know about Jive, of course. Anyway there was a Harmony engineer asking some questions about Jive...

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38579

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38537

Not sure where that will lead as the Jive hardware appears to be being led by Logitech out of Mountainview, but still.

radish
2007-10-24, 19:55
Not really.. Sonos devices can talk to NAS directly

NAS = machine. I was differentiating it from one of the solutions which includes storage (like a media center & extenders).

Empgamer
2007-10-25, 01:36
The 800 price has dropped here due to the announcement of the 810 I suspect. I think it's also importatnt to remember that the N800 does far more than just control music and the SB3 too.

I'm no flag waver either and took ages to decide between the two systems but for ME I still really can't see what the Sonos offers over the SB. The remote was a draw at first but I wondered how much I'd end up using it and if it would actually get in the way. With the SB you get a control with each and the other options of using laptops and PDAs etc. Radio is far more flexible with the SB (we like Last FM) and I think music searching (esp with Lazy Search) is much more advanced. That on unit display is a real plus for us too (even without using RSS feeds, clocks and weather etc), together with the design/style of the units. I think Sonos does what it does very well but for me it's more limited in its approach to doing so and more expensive to boot (albeit cost wasn't actualy a consideration for us).

Whilst I had some initial pilot error with setting up my NAS I find SB3 works very well with it and it goes to sleep. I also get a good signal over my wireless network so Sonos having its own is not a selling point either.

The big thing for mw with Sonos is ease of set up straight out the box and I think that's where they still have the edge. For those who view the remote with envy, I suspect the current beta for the SB3 will close that gap eventually.

I initially bought the SB3 because I just couldn't get away from the appeal of it, albeit I couldn't precisely say what that was. I did think that if I or my family got the slightest problem using it I'd sell it on and get a Sonos. That hasn't happened and I'd be quite surprised if it happened now, to such an extent that I've now got a second and am contemplating two more. Initially I was 90% certain I'd be going the Sonos route but I'm happy I made the right choice. Competition is good though and I'm no fan of the 'this is better than that' disputes and I think much will be down to personal choice and preference.

dcote
2007-10-26, 02:42
i felt i need to add my two bits as well... (no pun intended)

sonos has a strong presence in consumer + even high-end (!) audio-shops all over the world, wheras SD seems to be less prominent.

i have seen demo centers and banners in audio stores in germany, canada and even south-africa! and i am not necessarily talking about your "supermarket-style" hyperstores, but the cosy, small dealerships with personal service.

surely, this gives sonos more appeal to consumers of the "non-technical-type", who are primarily buying HQ AUDIO equipment and not an open-source technical gadget. ;-)

while i realize SD does have dealers as well, i confess i have not seen any SD product in any retail shop yet.

that being said, i am not sure if sonos is smarter - to me it seems they are simply addressing a different market:

SONOS: customers with higher budgets, primarily seeking an audio device which is sexy to look at, has less knobs to tweak and which is easy to buy - i.e. less complexity and less things to break!

SLIMDEVICES: customers who are technically savvy or interested, have a smaller budget and who are not only willig to, but love to tweak and fiddle with their equipment and continuously research and implement new optimizations.

john_ops
2007-10-30, 20:03
that being said, i am not sure if sonos is smarter - to me it seems they are simply addressing a different market:

SONOS: customers with higher budgets, primarily seeking an audio device which is sexy to look at, has less knobs to tweak and which is easy to buy - i.e. less complexity and less things to break!

SLIMDEVICES: customers who are technically savvy or interested, have a smaller budget and who are not only willig to, but love to tweak and fiddle with their equipment and continuously research and implement new optimizations.

Yep. I bought both. Stuck with Sonos. My SB3 sits atop my sonos in my bedroom, haven't turned it on in months - it just shows me time and weather and scores & stocks. Worth the price of entry for that alone. Sonos transformed the amount and nature of music I listened to from an interface perspective alone. SB felt different, but still a pain to browse... to flip through my collection. Sync'ing across the house in a seamless way - hell, doing everything in a seamless way, is what brought me to ante up for Sonos and which made me stay. My 2 cents. If Logitech builds a better remote, I may give it a whirl. I'm not tied in, even though I have 4 Sonos boxes and two remotes. Show me a better mousetrap - I haven't seen one yet!

J

Nikhil
2007-10-30, 22:03
Yep. I bought both. Stuck with Sonos. My SB3 sits atop my sonos in my bedroom, haven't turned it on in months
J

Different strokes for different folks. Its exactly the opposite for me. More often than not, it is the Sonos that stays idle, while the SB2 is constantly running. As I've said in a different thread, I love the display on my SB2 and I prefer its single handed remote operation over the two handed Sonos controller and its touch wheel (I am not a big fan of the wheel even on the iPod where it is implemented slightly better than on the Sonos controller). I also am very happy with the ability to do LastFM, Pandora (with LastFm scrobbling), AlienBBC and other fun stuff on the SB3. That said however, the Sonos is certainly a beautiful piece of kit; the less geeky members of my family seem to prefer it over the SB and I would recommend it without reservations to anyone. Not only is it easier to setup and use in a multi-room scenario, but when you are in a larger room using the Sonos controller become preferable to using the Slim IR and squinting at the SB display. Hopefully the Jive remote will bridge this last difference for me.