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Big AAC
2007-10-07, 08:23
Hi Guys, newbie so please go easy :)

I picked up an SB3 yesterday and generally i'm really happy, however i seem to be having issues sustaining a connection between my SB3 and my router (at least i think thats what the problem is). The SB is now sitting about 2 feet away from the router and still it seems to drop every 5 minutes, sometimes the screen will go blank and come bck to life after 10-20 seconds, other times it goes blank and stays blank until i hit the arrow keys on the remote which then takes me back to the Squeezebox Setup page where i have to connect again.

Strangely i have gone through a new setup a couple of times and each time it connects to the wireless network (WPA password is correct etc.) but it fails to find the IP address automatically(DHCP) and i therefore i have to self assign.

So basically my question is......what are the best settings to use with the Netgear DG834PN and SB3, i'd REALLY(!!!!) would like to get this up and running consistantly.

I must also say i'm having the same issue with internet radio, the stream seems to cut. buffer quite a bit, but i'm not sure if this might not be my internet connection (although BBC listen again works fine when used directly on my PC??!?)

Any help from you guys would be really appreciated, thanks



Andrew

EDIT: I'm using Vista Ultimate 32 and the frmware version on my NETGEAR is V1.03..30

EDIT2: Wireless signal is constantly at 100% by the way.

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 13:29
***UPDATE***

OK, so having played around with it a bit more it seems to work pretty much flawlessly (was playing BBC5live for around 90 mins uninterupted) when i have WPA or WEP disabled (i.e. no encryption). The second i turn these on the player seems to have a mind of its own, symptons include:

Tracks randomly restarting
screen going blank
the track countdown stalling and only showing in 5-10 increments
Timed Out
connection reset by host
no response from the remote at all

Generally i'm luckyif i get 5 minutes without problems which for £200 isn't great.

Now i'm sure its something i am doing wrong as but having said that there does appear to be a load of unanswered questions surrounding the compatibility of the SB£ with this router


I'm really starting to thnk i may have to return it which is a shame and i hope i can (with your help) work this out but it just seems like a total minefield at the moment and i'm little reluctant to just leave my wireless unencrypted.

Any help would really be appreciated, if there is any info which i haven't included let me know and i'll be sure to post it up here

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 13:42
MORE INFO


SlimServer Version: 6.5.4 - 12568 - Windows Vista - EN - cp1252
Server IP address: 192.168.0.2
Perl Version: 5.8.8 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
MySQL Version: 5.0.22-community-nt

The IP address for this player is: 192.168.0.3:25158 (not sure what the 25158 part is???)

The ethernet MAC address for this player is: 00:04:20:12:40:45

VERSION INFO

Player Firmware Version: 81

pablolie
2007-10-08, 14:04
any firewall software somewhere?

Phil Leigh
2007-10-08, 14:10
At the risk of being flamed from here to eternity:

1) I have never used WEP or WPA on my router - and I have used wi-fi pretty much since it was invented. I use MAC address limiting. I have never felt less than 100% secure.
2) You are using Vista which may be the cause of your problem, in conjunction with your router.
3) the problem does not lie with the SB hardware AFAICS
4) There are reports of incompatibilities with Netgear Series 8 routers - make sure you upgrade to the latest router firmware and use an alphanumeric key.

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 14:26
At the risk of being flamed from here to eternity:

1) I have never used WEP or WPA on my router - and I have used wi-fi pretty much since it was invented. I use MAC address limiting. I have never felt less than 100% secure.
2) You are using Vista which may be the cause of your problem, in conjunction with your router.
3) the problem does not lie with the SB hardware AFAICS
4) There are reports of incompatibilities with Netgear Series 8 routers - make sure you upgrade to the latest router firmware and use an alphanumeric key.

Hi Guys

Pablolie - only windows firewall, no third party apps. slimserver is also set an an exception.

Phil - I have not used MAC filtering before and am not too familiar with it, any pointers? I've read many issues on here with the DG series of Netgear routers and i'm coming to the conclusion that this may be the problem but i'm determined to try and get it working. Its not like it doesn't work, its just that it seems to be constantly 'connection timed out'

I'm using he latest firmware (updated yesterday) and always use numbers and letters in my WEP/ WPA passwords.

really stumped to be honest.....

Phil Leigh
2007-10-08, 14:35
I'm not familiar with Netgear kit, but MAC filtering works by defining a set of MAC addresses (ie physical pieces of equipment, uniquely identified by their MAC address) that are allowed to access your network - anything else doesn't get beyond the router. I'm sure there'll be a config screen somewhere in your router setup software where you can define that...probably under "wireless network access"

That pretty much secures your network from intrusion unless you encounter someone prepared to do MAC spoofing, which is pretty advanced hacking IMHO! Anyway, the security services can break WEP/WPA when they want to.

This may be your only option until the Netgear firmware and/or SB firmware are working together.

mflint
2007-10-08, 14:57
"MAC spoofing ... pretty advanced hacking"

Not so. It's opening a dialog in Windows (or in MacOS, or Linux, or the correct menu in Squeezebox Network Config) and entering the new MAC address. There's nothing especially advanced about it, other than finding a suitable address to imitate. And that can be done by sniffing network traffic. And with wireless, you don't need any physical access to the network to sniff network traffic...

For some time, I've had the opinion that you don't need to make your network impenetrable from the outside. Your network just needs to be harder to crack than your neighbour's network.

(The average drive-by WiFi hacker is just after bandwith, not your 200Gigs of Flacs or your digital photos)

MAC filtering, as a security mechanism, is poor in a world where many (most?) new routers ship with WEP or WPA encryption enabled out-of-the-box.

As to the original poster's specific problem, are there other sources of interference nearby? Other routers, microwave ovens, neighbours using electric drills, etc?

Matthew

NeilF
2007-10-08, 15:12
"MAC spoofing ... pretty advanced hacking"

Not so. It's opening a dialog in Windows (or in MacOS, or Linux, or the correct menu in Squeezebox Network Config) and entering the new MAC address. There's nothing especially advanced about it, other than finding a suitable address to imitate. And that can be done by sniffing network traffic. And with wireless, you don't need any physical access to the network to sniff network traffic...

For some time, I've had the opinion that you don't need to make your network impenetrable from the outside. Your network just needs to be harder to crack than your neighbour's network.

(The average drive-by WiFi hacker is just after bandwith, not your 200Gigs of Flacs or your digital photos)

MAC filtering, as a security mechanism, is poor in a world where many (most?) new routers ship with WEP or WPA encryption enabled out-of-the-box.

As to the original poster's specific problem, are there other sources of interference nearby? Other routers, microwave ovens, neighbours using electric drills, etc?

Matthew

The router & firewall would either connect or not connect... So it's nothing to do with MAC address or firewalls etc

Have you connected the SB3 via a network lead to the router, instead of wirelessly? See if that resolves the issue or not. (Wire it up, and then on turning on the unit cursor to the wired connection instead of wireless connection option)


Also, at the time of using your SB3 are you doing anything on the server/PC? Try not to during testing! At least for the moment!

During testing set your view to show the buffer! Go into SlimServer>Player Settings for Squeezebox & set one of the "Nothing" or empty "NOW PLAYING INFORMATION" dropdowns to "Show Buffer Fullness", and click the "current" radio button to the left it as well before clicking "CHANGE" just below it. When playing a track the bar will now show your buffer and give you a good idea of the data input behaviour into the unit.

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 15:21
Just tried moving the SB3 into another room and when encryption was disabled i was getting a constant connection with signal strength between 55-60% Worked flawlessly with both .mp3 stored on my hard drive and streaming via AlienBBC.


Then i turned on MAC filtering (added the SB3 MAC address to the trusted network and switched on access control via my router) and it borked within 2 minutes, constantly losing connection (screen went blank) and then either comes back and starts the tune again or merely stalls altogether.


Totally bizarre but it seems ANY type of encryption/ filtering is interferring with the signal/ connection.

I'd like to try a static IP but in all honesty it seems a little beyond me and the fact that it finds an IP address automatically leads me to believe this may not solve anything??!?

There is clearly something that it doesn't like and the fact that i have found a setting which appears to work (albeit with WPA/WEP/MAC filtering disabled)i am now determined to make it work, just hopefully in a way that doesn't leave my wireless conection open for anybody to use.

NeilF
2007-10-08, 15:30
Just tried moving the SB3 into another room and when encryption was disabled i was getting a constant connection with signal strength between 55-60% Worked flawlessly with both .mp3 stored on my hard drive and streaming via AlienBBC.


Then i turned on MAC filtering (added the SB3 MAC address to the trusted network and switched on access control via my router) and it borked within 2 minutes, constantly losing connection (screen went blank) and then either comes back and starts the tune again or merely stalls altogether.


Totally bizarre but it seems ANY type of encryption/ filtering is interferring with the signal/ connection.

I'd like to try a static IP but in all honesty it seems a little beyond me and the fact that it finds an IP address automatically leads me to believe this may not solve anything??!?

There is clearly something that it doesn't like and the fact that i have found a setting which appears to work (albeit with WPA/WEP/MAC filtering disabled)i am now determined to make it work, just hopefully in a way that doesn't leave my wireless conection open for anybody to use.

VERY odd! Have you got any other wireless devices you can try the encryption with (eg: laptop?)

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 15:31
The router & firewall would either connect or not connect... So it's nothing to do with MAC address or firewalls etc

Have you connected the SB3 via a network lead to the router, instead of wirelessly? See if that resolves the issue or not. (Wire it up, and then on turning on the unit cursor to the wired connection instead of wireless connection option)


Also, at the time of using your SB3 are you doing anything on the server/PC? Try not to during testing! At least for the moment!

During testing set your view to show the buffer! Go into SlimServer>Player Settings for Squeezebox & set one of the "Nothing" or empty "NOW PLAYING INFORMATION" dropdowns to "Show Buffer Fullness", and click the "current" radio button to the left it as well before clicking "CHANGE" just below it. When playing a track the bar will now show your buffer and give you a good idea of the data input behaviour into the unit.

Thanks for the tips. I will try the buffer testing tomorrow and post back some results.

I have tried the wired method and that seems to be as stable as the wireless method without encryption but again any encrpyption seems to casue problems, so i don't think it is the wireless/wired method that is the problem, merely the encryption method causing issues somewhere down the line.

I will try the buffer test on both wired/ wireless and with/without WEP to see what the differences are. Thanks for the tip.

mflint - the router has been stood on top of my PC right next to the SB3 for the most part, I did think think interference could be the problem initially which is why i moved it from its intended postion (living room) into the study alongside the router, at leas then i could rule out that issue. besides, if there was interference would this not have caused the same problems with the laptop in othe other room which has been flawless for the last 18 months?

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 15:32
VERY odd! Have you got any other wireless devices you can try the encryption with (eg: laptop?)


Yep laptop is the other end of the house and has been running fine on WPA for the last 18 months!!

Siduhe
2007-10-08, 15:42
mflint - the router has been stood on top of my PC right next to the SB3 for the most part, I did think think interference could be the problem initially which is why i moved it from its intended postion (living room) into the study alongside the router, at leas then i could rule out that issue. besides, if there was interference would this not have caused the same problems with the laptop in othe other room which has been flawless for the last 18 months?

Is the laptop also running Vista or is it on XP? I have the same netgear router as you - on which both my SB and mediaserver ran flawlessly.

There are,however, a few threads on the netgear forums which sound similar to your problem, and they seem to associate it with the Vista/Netgear drivers. One suggestion is to uninstall the Netgear utility and all netgear drivers on the Vista pc, then reinstall the latest Vista drivers (but without using the Netgear utility). May be worth a try.

pablolie
2007-10-08, 15:43
weird indeed, but one sees weird things happen all the time, unfortunately.

other remote possibilities: IP address conflicts if you have addressed some IP addresses manually, and then those guys go wake up on occasion. DHCP has never worked for my SB3 for whatever reasson, so it's the only deevicde in my network with a manually assigned address that of course I assign within the address space, however outside of the DHCP ownership.

Other than that... microwave effects, either from your own or the neighbors devices. try switching wireless channels on your wireless router.

i also agree with the test via direct ethernet.

i have had issues with the SB3 having amnesia, and only repeated configuration attempts finally getting the box to connect. but then it works again for months on end, typically until i upgrade the software (will we ever learn to leave things alone when they work? :-)

Big AAC
2007-10-08, 15:57
Is the laptop also running Vista or is it on XP? I have the same netgear router as you - on which both my SB and mediaserver ran flawlessly.

There are,however, a few threads on the netgear forums which sound similar to your problem, and they seem to associate it with the Vista/Netgear drivers. One suggestion is to uninstall the Netgear utility and all netgear drivers on the Vista pc, then reinstall the latest Vista drivers (but without using the Netgear utility). May be worth a try.

Interersting, the laptop is running XP. seems Vista might be causing the problems here. I've noticed problems with the SlimTray not loading properly (at all) in the system tray which has been documented here also so i think Vista may be causing some if not all of the problems.

More testing tomorrow and i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of it all........

NeilF
2007-10-09, 01:15
Have a quick read of this...

http://forum1.netgear.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68&d=1191735211

Might help?

Big AAC
2007-10-09, 13:32
OK, so i now have the buffer showing whilst playing....now for the testing....

first test

SB3 connected via ethernet

HHD stored music
and the buffer was just bizarre!!! it seemed to count down 1% every two seconds until it reached 0%, the song then finished and it shot straight back up to 100% for the next song and has been there ever since.

So bizarre but pretty much stable as expected.

BBC radio 1
constantly streamed with a buffer of around 5.5 seconds.

Again pretty stable.

second test

SB3 connected via wireless with no encryption

constantly dropping out/ rebuffering.

slightly annoyed at this one because i thought i at least had thi working last night. Now it appears any type of wireless signal is hopeless.


second test

SB3 connected via wireless with WEP/WPA-PSK encryption

hopeless! sometimes i could have 5-10 minutes running fine (the buffer still gradually decreases down to 0% though by the end of the song, this isn't right is it?) then at other times its a chore even getting the thing to play anything. There appears to be very little logic to it all.


So all in all i'm not sure what i've proved! A couple of questions though:

1. I have a wireless mouse and keyboard, could these be interferring?
2. My music is being played from an external Seagate Freeagent HDD? could this be causing probs?


Neil, i had a look at your link but TBH i'm struggling to even get it playing WITHOUT WEP at the moment

any ideas?

Big AAC
2007-10-09, 13:41
Just browsing the NETGEAR website and noticed teh Vista Drivers section. Currently downloading the DG834PN driver from this page

http://kbserver.netgear.com/kb_web_files/n101649.asp#vista_wirelessrouter

Will see what that does (probably cripple eveything :) )

DrNic
2007-10-09, 14:12
Hi
It may have been mentioned before but there is a difference between signal strength and quality. The SB3 only shows strength, which can be misleading. A strong signal does not necessarily mean a quality one! Streaming music is very different to normal browsing tasks like you would perform on your laptop, it requires a consistently quality signal. Have you used the laptop to see if you have other wireless networks in the vacinity with "strong" signals?
Have you tried changing the wireless channel away from the Netgear default? (if default is 6, as most are, try 1 or 11)
Wireless issues can be a pain (the exact reason i wired my house!!) and trouble shooting even more so. If you a friend with a router (different brand) try using it in your house with the SB3 to see if a different combo will help....
Don't give up!

Nic

Big AAC
2007-10-09, 15:28
I'm now sat here amongst a sea of wires and PCs. I've contemplated buying a new router, downgrading back to XP etc. etc. but to be honest i think i'm slowly coming to the realisation that i'm beginning to let the tail wag the dog.

I'm slightly pee'd off now that i can't get this working. I've had no problems with this wireless router before and there seems to be a number of inconclusive threads here that suggest the SB3 has issues with the Netgear series 8 routers.

I really apreciate all the help and tips that everyone has posted here but there doesn't seem to be any way of replicating one particular issue. Last night i has wirelss working (albeit without WEP/WPA etc.) but now can't even get that working for more than 5 minutes.


I only have a few days let before i wil need to return it so its either that i accept i have to work . gutted :(

Big AAC
2007-10-09, 15:42
Just tried to connect with WPA-PSK enabled over ethernet and even that isn't working!!!!

Fails to obtain an IP address and asks me to auto assign one.

Surely if i'm connected ia ethernet the WEP/ WPA shouldn't interfer with the relationship between the router and the SB3???

pablolie
2007-10-09, 15:49
Just tried to connect with WPA-PSK enabled over ethernet and even that isn't working!!!!

Fails to obtain an IP address and asks me to auto assign one.

Surely if i'm connected ia ethernet the WEP/ WPA shouldn't interfer with the relationship between the router and the SB3???


Have you tried to manually assign an address that is outside the DHCP managed space, but within you local address range? That is how I have my SB's working.

Big AAC
2007-10-09, 15:55
Have you tried to manually assign an address that is outside the DHCP managed space, but within you local address range? That is how I have my SB's working.

Could you tell me how i go about doing this? When the SB3 auto assigns (when WPA and WEP is disabled) it finds the IP address of 192.168.0.2 or 192.168.0.3. Indeed i am currently connected via ethernet (without encryption) and the HOST IP address is 192.168.0.2

pablolie
2007-10-09, 16:08
your wireless router manages your ip space. it acts as the DHCP server, assigning IP addresses as they are requested. certain conditions cause them to be released, and then there can be major trouble if both sides don't agree the IP address has indeed been released. And the SB3 is not a good DHCP citizen, in my experience, but of course YMMV.

go to your wireless router management console. i should allow you to define your address boundaries. in your case, i assume it is
192.168.0.xyz
meaning that you can have quite a few devices there.
The wireless router seems to be claiming 192.168.0.1 for himself, as they often do. That's also your DHCP servers and your gateway's address.

It should also allow you to define where the address space to DHCP begins, and how many active DHCP clients can be there. So if you configure it to start at
192.168.0.20 and tell it it's 20 clients, it means the DHCP server will hand out addresses from 192.168.0.20 to 192.168.0.40 dynamically.

That also means you can assign addresses from 192.168.0.2 to 192.168.0.19 manually. Assign one of them to each SB or other manual devices you have in your network. Caution: Make sure you don't double assign and keep painstaking note of it.

Big AAC
2007-10-10, 14:12
Ok, i've assigned where the DHCP begins (192.168.0.20) and finishes (192.168.0.40)

I have since tried to connect via wireless (no encryption) and it has auto assigned an IP of 192.168.0.20

It still times out and stops playing music after a few senconds though. I've just checked the attached evices records on my NETGEAR control panel and it lists


So i figured that this was becuase it was auto assigning the IP address and (based on your comments above) i need to specify a static IP address (is that right?) so i did this and entered the IP address on 192.168.000.010
with a subnet mask of 255.255.255.000
and a default gateway address of 192.168.000.001
and a DNS server of 192.168.000.001 (i have no idea if this is correct as i couldn't find any mention of a DNS server other than on the ADSL port)

This had exactly the same result. just kept losing connection. when it was connected the NETGEAR logged them as:


1 --- 192.168.0.2 A-D5323A005E9C4 --- 00:01:80:5F:6A:AE (this is slimserver)
2 --- 192.168.0.10 UNKNOWN --- 00:04:20:12:40:45 (the SB3)