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MrSinatra
2007-10-02, 12:53
in fishbone, when i browse in gallery view, i do artist, year, album.

can someone please verify that the way SS works when it organizes music from a scan, is that it arranges the albums via the "artist" tag, but when it displays the artist name in gallery view, it uses the "albumartist" or "band" tag first if available?

can someone also explain why it does that? and is it possible to change that behavior?

also, is it the case that albumartist as a tag is supposed to account for any given track on a CD which may have an extra artist or be different from the main artist of the CD?

for instance on the billy joel box set, on CD3 there is a track with both billy joel and ray charles performing together.

should artist for that track be billy joel, and albumartist be 'billy joel / ray charles.'?

i just switched it to that, to see what SS will do with it now; but b4 it was reversed, and so SS put the whole CD3 under various artists b/c of that.

MrSinatra
2007-10-03, 11:02
in fishbone, when i browse in gallery view, i do artist, year, album.

can someone please verify that the way SS works when it organizes music from a scan, is that it arranges the albums via the "artist" tag, but when it displays the artist name in gallery view, it uses the "albumartist" or "band" tag first if available?

seemingly i have verified this to myself, but i was hoping someone else could do so as well.


can someone also explain why it does that? and is it possible to change that behavior?

i haven't figured this out yet, if i can change the behavior, and i haven't figured out why its done this way, (not saying its wrong, just wondering what the rationale is)


also, is it the case that albumartist as a tag is supposed to account for any given track on a CD which may have an extra artist or be different from the main artist of the CD?

it does seem to be a secondary only tag.

http://www.id3.org/d3v2.3.0


for instance on the billy joel box set, on CD3 there is a track with both billy joel and ray charles performing together.

should artist for that track be billy joel, and albumartist be 'billy joel / ray charles.'?

it would seem that is the case.

i always figured the opposite: artist should be for that tracks actual artist[s], and albumartist would be for the overall CDs artist.

but it seems the reverse is the right way, according to the standard. would you all agree?


i just switched it to that, to see what SS will do with it now; but b4 it was reversed, and so SS put the whole CD3 under various artists b/c of that.

so far so good, the CD3 of joel is now with his stuff, and not under various artists, and ray charles is now listed only in the albumartist (tpe2) field on that track. (as i said, prior it was the other way, b.j. and ray on artist, and just b.j. on albumartist)

snarlydwarf
2007-10-03, 12:00
i always figured the opposite: artist should be for that tracks actual artist[s], and albumartist would be for the overall CDs artist.

but it seems the reverse is the right way, according to the standard. would you all agree?

I wouldn't agree and that is not how it works for me: The soundtrack to "I'm Your Man," a documentary on Leonard Cohen, has tags like:
TPE1 (Lead performer(s)/Soloist(s)): Martha Wainwright
TPE2 (Band/orchestra/accompaniment): Leonard Cohen

My 'Server/Behavior' setting for that is:

(X) Group compilation albums together
Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software.

See, I want that album to show up as Cohen, even if he only has one track on it: it is effectively a tribute to him, so it should be under his name.

Did you set the 'group compilation' flag? That seems to me to be the most logical setting, but the choice is yours. Just whatever you do, you have to be consisent, but that is the fun of tagging things correctly and there is really no way any software is going to be consistent without your input.

JJZolx
2007-10-03, 13:02
can someone please verify that the way SS works when it organizes music from a scan, is that it arranges the albums via the "artist" tag, but when it displays the artist name in gallery view, it uses the "albumartist" or "band" tag first if available?
It appears to use ALBUMARTIST over ARTIST, when available.

Here's an example from a test I just ran (FLAC files, all tracks tagged identically on the album):

I had the following album tagged as:

ALBUM=Neck and Neck
ARTIST=Mark Knoplfler
ARTIST=Chet Atkins

then I retagged it:

ALBUM=Neck and Neck
ARTIST=Mark Knoplfler
ARTIST=Chet Atkins
ALBUMARTIST=Mark Knopfler

Tagged the first way, it showed up sorted under Chet Atkins, with the artist displayed as 'Mark Knopfler, Chet Atkins'.

After retagging, it shows up sorted under Mark Knopfler and the artist displayed is now just 'Mark Knopfler'.

That's pretty much how I'd want it. With two artists but no clear ALBUMARTIST, it's any one's guess which should be used to sort. I suppose SlimServer might sort them into order, then use the first one, or it might be random, or the first one that is read from the file. The effective ALBUMARTIST is 'Chet Atkins & Mark Knopfler'. But when there's an explicit ALBUMARTIST, it's used both for sorting and for the artist displayed in the album's byline.


for instance on the billy joel box set, on CD3 there is a track with both billy joel and ray charles performing together.

should artist for that track be billy joel, and albumartist be 'billy joel / ray charles.'?

Exactly the opposite. It's a Billy Joel album, so he's the album aritst, but he and Ray are both artists on the track.

TITLE=...
ARTIST=Billy Joel
ARTIST=Ray Charles
ALBUMARTIST=Billy Joel


i just switched it to that, to see what SS will do with it now; but b4 it was reversed, and so SS put the whole CD3 under various artists b/c of that.

It might be required that you have an explicit COMPILATION=0 tag to avoid the album being marked as a compilation. I'm not sure if that's doable with MP3s, or only with FLAC/OGG/APE.

MrSinatra
2007-10-04, 00:37
let me start by saying i apologize for conflating so many issues into one thread. while they all are related, i think i have made it hard to address my own questions, so i'll try to fix that with this post.

also, please understand here my intention is absolutely NOT to be argumentative, but rather nail down the facts, via point / counter-point. the problem is i am not very knowledgeable in tags, and i'm not as knowledgable as all of you about SS either for that matter.

so thx for you help, now on to the tags:

***
1. what is the proper benchmark standard use of certain tags?

i posted a link above, and i'll repost it here, would you all agree that this is the best resource or benchmark reference? would you point to someone or something else as a higher authority? maybe something else as a more popular authority?

http://www.id3.org/d3v2.3.0

(scroll down to like ~4.2)

***
2. if we accept the above, it says the following:


TPE1
The 'Lead artist(s)/Lead performer(s)/Soloist(s)/Performing group' is
used for the main artist(s). They are seperated with the "/"
character.

TPE2
The 'Band/Orchestra/Accompaniment' frame is used for additional
information about the performers in the recording.

tpe1 is aka "artist" while tpe2 is aka "albumartist" or "band" in many programs.

i can not tell strictly from the explanation quoted above which should be used for which, meaning should artist be billy joel, and albumartist be billy joel and ray charles, (on that one track) or vice versa?

my longtime thinking was that tpe1 was for whoever was doing that particular song, while albumartist was for who the CD belonged to artistically. thats also what you guys seem to think.

however, i can now see where tpe1 could be considered the "main" artist, or "lead" FOR THE CD, as opposed to the track, (as per the above site's explantion); while tpe2 would be a tag to say this is the preformer on the album for this track, (as opposed to the whole CD), ie. the "additional performers" as per the above.

i think whichever opinion someone has on it, depends on your POV. the site i quote isn't clear. mine would not have changed from my longtime thinking, EXCEPT that SS forced me into trying to account for how it was handling arranging my albums, per its scans.

(btw, the quoted explanation seems to be designed appropriate for classical, and that would explain its origins. but regardless, its now what pop-music uses as well, and the question is what is the appropriate convention to be used to conform ones pop-music tags as per the authority on tagging; as well as what is the convention the masses use? they aren't necessarily one and the same!)

this then all leads to how slimserver arranges CD based on these tags:

***
3. if you guys are correct, and tpe1 should be for the tracks artist, and tpe2 should be for the overall CD artist, then WHY does SS use tpe1 to arrange CDs in gallery view?

tpe2 is all but ignored as far as SS is concerned (when ordering albums in gallery view). that suggests to me that the people who wrote SS think that tpe1, NOT tpe2, should be the field for overall cd artist, as opposed to specific track artist.

if that isn't the case, then they have made a mistake to use tpe1 as the field to determine gallery view order.

seems to me it has to be one or the other, yes?

***
4. and relatedly, SS uses tpe1 to determine, via its own internal scanning logic, if a CD is a various artists CD.

if any track has a differing entry, it gets considered as a compilation disc, or various artists disc, from what i can tell.

obviously, while sometimes that may be the case, it is not always the case.

so how else can one get the billy joel to NOT be with various artists discs, and instead be with all the other billy joel CDs?

the ONLY way i see to do that, is by making tpe1, NOT tpe2, set to 'billy joel.'

is this not correct?

***
5. and then also very baffling, if it arranges via tpe1, which from my tests it absolutely does, then why when it diplays the name of the artist in gallery view, does it use tpe2 to do so?!?!?! odd!

***

so i simply want to do whatever works best with SS naturally, but if SS is itself wrong, i want SS to be fixed b4 i mess around with all my tags and need to reverse it for a fixed SS.

and btw, i don't use "compilation" tags... seems like yet another step that i would rather avoid. while it may prove a useful workaround, (and please tell me if it is) it doesn't address the point of how one is supposed to do this correctly without that extra tag. thats the question i want to answer.

***

btw, i use EAC to rip CDs, and it uses freedb, right?
i use lame 3.96 or newer.
i think i have it set to write both 1.1 and 2.3 tags. should i set it to just do 2.3 only?
WMP is set to only add MISSING info from tags, not change any existing info.

i have EAC set so that when various artists is checked, it assigns each track its own artist info, and the filename gets written as:

../album/album - track # - artist - song.mp3

and afaict, the tags get set in a similar fashion.

i also have SS set to group compilation albums together.

under that choice, i tell it to list by band, using the tpe2 setting.

i use both of those b/c i want comps grouped together, and i don't want the same CD under all the artists it may have, nor do i want all the individual artists for a CD displayed in gallery view.


Albums that contain songs that are tagged with a band may be listed under that band name or with the other artists for that album. The band tag is also known as TPE2 and may appear as the "album artist" in some software.

this is that confusing second choice.

when i had tpe2 set to billy joel, it still listed it in the various artists section in gallery view. so i can only assume it means displaying the name of the artist under the artwork for gallery view. in any case, i have always had this set to list by band, as opposed to 'list album by all artists for that album.'

***

i realize this is a very long post, but i'm just hoping someone can help me make some sense out of this behavior, and explain if SS is in fact doing something wrong, or if it isn't why it isn't.

thx.

MrSinatra
2007-10-04, 01:04
i was unclear, mainly because i didn't know you could have 'artist' as a field in the tag listed twice, as you do.

in my example all through this thread, my fields were like this:

SS sorting it in the WRONG place:

ALBUM=BJ Box Set CD3
ARTIST=Billy Joel/Ray Charles
ALBUMARTIST=Billy Joel

SS sorting it in the RIGHT place:

ALBUM=BJ Box Set CD3
ARTIST=Billy Joel
ALBUMARTIST=Billy Joel/Ray Charles

this is b/c, imo, SS uses comparisons of other tracks in the same folder via their tpe1 field to determine if its a comp or not.

(remember, ray charles only shows up on one song and so only in one tag on this CD, yet which field he's listed in determined where SS sorted it)

if SS thinks an album is a comp, (determined by tpe1) then it will put it under various artists REGARDLESS of what you set tpe2 to.

more below:


It appears to use ALBUMARTIST over ARTIST, when available.

no, i'll explain why i think u got these results:


Here's an example from a test I just ran (FLAC files, all tracks tagged identically on the album):

I had the following album tagged as:

ALBUM=Neck and Neck
ARTIST=Mark Knoplfler
ARTIST=Chet Atkins

then I retagged it:

ALBUM=Neck and Neck
ARTIST=Mark Knoplfler
ARTIST=Chet Atkins
ALBUMARTIST=Mark Knopfler

Tagged the first way, it showed up sorted under Chet Atkins, with the artist displayed as 'Mark Knopfler, Chet Atkins'.

i think it sorted under chet, b/c it used the last entry of artist to sort. if the last entry had been mark k, i think it would have used that instead. SS seems to use the last or final entry a lot, when 'guessing' at what it should do.


After retagging, it shows up sorted under Mark Knopfler and the artist displayed is now just 'Mark Knopfler'.

maybe thats b/c mark k is now the last artist related entry... but either way this situation is somewhat different from what i am describing.

do any of the files for this CD have differing tpe1 tags? that takes precedence.

and do you use compilation tags?


That's pretty much how I'd want it. With two artists but no clear ALBUMARTIST, it's any one's guess which should be used to sort. I suppose SlimServer might sort them into order, then use the first one, or it might be random, or the first one that is read from the file.

as i mentioned, i think its the last entry used.


The effective ALBUMARTIST is 'Chet Atkins & Mark Knopfler'. But when there's an explicit ALBUMARTIST, it's used both for sorting and for the artist displayed in the album's byline.

no doubt that albumartist is always used for the byline when presnt, but as i mentioned, it is NOT always used for sorting.

if it is ever used for sorting, it is only used for sorting when all the tpe1 fields agree with each other in a given folder.


Exactly the opposite. It's a Billy Joel album, so he's the album aritst, but he and Ray are both artists on the track.

TITLE=...
ARTIST=Billy Joel
ARTIST=Ray Charles
ALBUMARTIST=Billy Joel

i think i addressed this in both this post, and the previous post.


It might be required that you have an explicit COMPILATION=0 tag to avoid the album being marked as a compilation. I'm not sure if that's doable with MP3s, or only with FLAC/OGG/APE.

i have no idea, and i'd rather get SS to be better, rather than have me have to manually add yet another field to tags.

thx.

MrSinatra
2007-10-13, 22:12
i guess my long posts scared you guys off, but i do think i am describing some valid issues here.

no response?

MrSinatra
2008-07-31, 03:54
bug 8001 has fixed this issue.

the confusion above was caused by several factors, notably the fact that at that time, TPE2 wasn't treated like ALBUMARTIST by SC.

also, while there is no doubt that the universal defacto standard for tagging is that TPE1 = track artist[s], while TPE2 = cd artist, i still contend that might be the opposite of what the spec writers intended. (and yes, i am also aware that TPE2 also was intended to ID "Bands" like the Crickets)

in any case, 8001 now allows SC to act in a congruent and logical pattern, and not contradict itself, in what it displays and how it sorts.