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View Full Version : Release of Beta Development Kits for Squeezebox Jive Target Hardware Platform



MickeyG
2007-08-23, 13:42
A few months ago, we announced a beta release of the Jive software platform, which was designed to power advanced remote control applications for Squeezebox and Transporter.

Today, we are announcing that we have shipped beta development kits of the target hardware platform for Squeezebox Jive to selected developers of the Slim Devices/Logitech open source community. The target hardware platform consists of a remote-control form factor with a color screen, and uses a version of embedded Linux running on an ARM processor.

This is a release of a development platform to our community so they can continue their contributions to the Jive software platform, and not a product announcement. It is Logitech’s policy not to discuss future hardware plans.

Please feel free to discuss the new hardware platform in the forums and update the wiki at http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?Jive.

The source code repository has been updated to include everything needed to create software for the target hardware platform, so ... check it out!

Mickey

mvalera
2007-08-23, 17:23
I just want to encourage everyone who has received a beta kit to please speak up!

Please feel free to speak openly about the Jive hardware platform.

Cheers,

Mike

mrfantasy
2007-08-23, 19:42
Can they post pictures? I want pictures.

mvalera
2007-08-24, 09:50
Yes,

Pictures are ok... beta testers please post them at your leisure.

Mike

dean
2007-08-24, 10:11
While we wait for the photos to start appearing, I'll share a little
about the hardware inside the beta systems:

- 2.4" color TFT LCD, 240x320 pixels, 16bpp
- Mechanical scroll wheel
- 10 backlit buttons (play, add, go, home, back, vol-/+, rew, pause,
fwd)
- Samsung ARM9 CPU (S3C2412), 200MHz
- 64MB NAND flash
- 64MB mobile SDRAM
- Headphone jack
- Built-in speaker
- IR LED
- SD card slot
- 1250 mAh Li-Ion battery
- 3 axis accelerometer (for motion sensing)
- Charging stand
- Expansion connector that brings out: serial, USB (host or device),
audio out, audio in, 3.3v out, 5v in

bklaas
2007-08-24, 10:17
I like being first...

I put it on the "Choose Language" screen, because I had a hand in writing that one :)

cheers,
#!/ben

dean
2007-08-24, 10:53
Ah,Ben, you beat me. Here are a couple more...

dean
2007-08-24, 10:54
and two more for now.

erland
2007-08-24, 11:19
How does it communicate with SlimServer/SqueezeBox ? Is it just IR or something more ?

Can it somehow read data from SlimServer over the communication channel ?

mvalera
2007-08-24, 11:27
The Jive target hardware uses 802.11, and it actually controls SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork. The unique way our devices work means that our hardware (Squeezebox and Transporter) is actually controlled by our server software (SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork) so the Jive actually controls the server which, in turn, controls the players.

Make sense?

Mike

Nikhil
2007-08-24, 11:40
The Jive target hardware uses 802.11

So many questions ....

Is this b/g or perhaps n ?

And what's the IR LED for? Directly controlling an SB/TP or other 3rd party equipment?

And what about the internal speaker?

And what about a bluetooth option if the server is in proximity and has bluetooth? wouldn't that improve battery life? And with A2DP and some newer lossless bluetooth audio protocols that could open up a whole bunch of possibilities.

These are exciting developments. And this stuff looks very promising. Wish the SD/Logitech SMS team all the very best.

dean
2007-08-24, 11:42
On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:19 AM, erland wrote:

> How does it communicate with SlimServer/SqueezeBox ? Is it just IR or
> something more ?
>
> Can it somehow read data from SlimServer over the communication
> channel
> ?
>

Doh, I completely forgot about that. 802.11b/g WLAN built in.

If you've been able to get the Jive software running on your desktop,
it's the same software using the same networking communications to
talk with SlimServer via the HTTP interface.

-dean

peterw
2007-08-24, 11:47
How does it communicate with SlimServer/SqueezeBox ? Is it just IR or something more ?

Can it somehow read data from SlimServer over the communication channel ?

JSON/HTTP. See http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?JiveArchitecture

-Peter, not a Jive beta tester :-(

dean
2007-08-24, 12:16
On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Nikhil wrote:

> Is this b/g or perhaps n ?
>
b/g (with true g)


> And what's the IR LED for? Directly controlling an SB/TP or other 3rd
> party equipment?
>
The software now doesn't do anything at all with it. The intent is
that it could control other hardware. SB/TP control would happen via
wireless.


> And what about the internal speaker?
>
Right now the internal speaker and headphone jack are only being used
for sound effects.


> And what about a bluetooth option if the server is in proximity and
> has
> bluetooth? wouldn't that improve battery life? And with A2DP and some
> newer lossless bluetooth audio protocols that could open up a whole
> bunch of possibilities.
>
There's no bluetooth hardware in there, but I don't see a reason why
somebody couldn't use the expansion port to prototype such a thing.


> These are exciting developments. And this stuff looks very promising.
> Wish the SD/Logitech SMS team all the very best.
>
Thanks! This project is a big deal for us. We're excited about both
the software and hardware platforms as well as seeing the ideas that
the community brings to the table.

mrfantasy
2007-08-24, 18:55
This is awesome! I mean, it would be awesome if something like that was coming out, which you can neither confirm nor deny.

mkozlows
2007-08-25, 20:58
The Jive target hardware uses 802.11, and it actually controls SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork. The unique way our devices work means that our hardware (Squeezebox and Transporter) is actually controlled by our server software (SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork) so the Jive actually controls the server which, in turn, controls the players.

Make sense?


But what if your server isn't wirelessly networked? I've got SlimServer running on a desktop with Ethernet only (and plan to eventually put a server in the basement, away from the living room entirely). Will the Squeezebox be able to catch the signal wirelessly and relay it to the server, or will this configuration just not work at all?

EDIT: Duh, obviously this would work as long as you have a wireless access point available on the same network, which I do. It's too late here, apparently.

Anyway, looks neat. Much, much neater would be a similar such device, except with the capability to be a universal remote to control all your devices, like Harmony makes. If only there were some way that Slim Devices and Harmony could get together...

dean
2007-08-25, 21:50
On Aug 25, 2007, at 8:58 PM, mkozlows wrote:
> But what if your server isn't wirelessly networked? I've got
> SlimServer running on a desktop with Ethernet only (and plan to
> eventually put a server in the basement, away from the living room
> entirely). Will the Squeezebox be able to catch the signal wirelessly
> and relay it to the server, or will this configuration just not
> work at
> all?

The current Squeezebox has both an ethernet and wireless connection.

The Jive beta controller has only wireless, so it needs a wireless
network in range (either an ad hoc network or regular access point)
to connect to your SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork or Squeezebox.

Does that answer your question?

erland
2007-08-25, 23:53
> And what's the IR LED for? Directly controlling an SB/TP or other 3rd party equipment?
>
The software now doesn't do anything at all with it. The intent is that it could control other hardware. SB/TP control would happen via wireless.

Here are some suggestions if/when you make this remote prototype into to a real product.

It seems like this remote could be a really great universal remote control for controlling all your devices and not just the SqueezeBox. I'm guessing that the open source character of Jive would pretty much would make it possible to program an interface on it for any sort of device.

To make it better as a universal remote:
1.
Make sure it is possible to use it for learning commands for other remote controls. The important thing is that the hardware is in place for this, the software part can always be added later. I don't know enough to know if the current IR LED is enough for this or if it would also require some sort of IR receiver.

2.
I would like more hard buttons. Currently the hard buttons seems to be a bit specific for controlling the SqueezeBox, if you added a few more hard buttons it would work better as a universal remote. I'm currently using a Logitech Harmony 688 as universal remote and the reason it is so great is that it has a lot of hard buttons. The advantage with hard buttons is that you don't have to look at the remote when controlling a device, you will learn to feel the correct buttons.

If the product only acts as a remote for the SqueezeBox I'm not sure it would be enough for me to buy it, but if it could replace my Harmony 688 I would be more interested.

)p(
2007-08-26, 00:39
Erland: Something like the Vista sideshow remotes?

http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/12/ricavision_vista_mce_bluetooth_remote-copy.jpg

Personally I would like a remote more like the nokia 770 that doubles as a internet tablet. Mostly because I want a bigger screen then 320x240 to navigate a complex classical library with ease.

peter

erland
2007-08-26, 01:20
Erland: Something like the Vista sideshow remotes?It's a little bit better but I would like still more buttons.

Here is a picture of the Harmony 895:
http://www.logitech.com/repository/152/jpg/857.1.0.jpg

I could live without the number pad, but I'm guessing that people that want to use things like the Lazy Search plugin would like it. As you can see, it doesn't have to be large buttons, those small buttons beside the display works good enough. It is so much easier if you have a button which is a short cut to what you are trying to do instead of navigating through three, four menu levels with the arrow keys.

I guess some people like those big touch screens and some don't, I'm in the crowd that would like to use the display for displaying things and not as an input device. IMHO touch screens looks cool and are great for demoing stuff, but when you are sitting there in the sofa and just want to change channel or raise the volume it can't beat a standard hard button.

bossanova808
2007-08-26, 01:29
So can one use headphones in the audio out? That is - could one stream music to this thing and use it as, say, a mini squeezebox for the bedroom?

That would make it a little portable player as well...could be fun.

amcluesent
2007-08-26, 04:05
IMHO they've missed a trick in not using a touch screen and then minimising the # of hard-buttons needed. I find that the only buttons I use on my Pronto are volume +/-, I use soft buttons on the screen panels for everything else controlling my TP (and all the other kit).

A scroll-wheel like the iPod would be good, esp. if some of the feedback effects from the TP wheel could be used.

It must be a learning remote using the IR, buying a remote just for the TP isn't going to be worth it for me after setting up the Pronto

gb115b
2007-08-26, 05:43
i'm not sure...i quite like my remotes being one-handed...

esp if they are IR based...

anyway..this is just what i've been wanting for years...

as long as this thing is responsive, i'm definitely in the market for one (or two!)


it would be really cool if this thing had bluetooth and a sideshow driver...for windows MCE peeps...

mmm...open-source remote control

Nostromo
2007-08-26, 09:59
Very nice. But it needs a number pad, IMO. The lack of a number pad is a deal breaker.

Any idea how much it could cost?

gb115b
2007-08-26, 10:13
number pad... for universal remote usage...definitely

not sure if i need one for general music browsing...seem to manage fien with my ipod..

but having said that, my music collection is getting pretty cumbersome now, so maybe someway of quickly browsing would be good!

erland
2007-08-26, 10:34
number pad... for universal remote usage...definitely

not sure if i need one for general music browsing...seem to manage fien with my ipod..I think the need for music browsing is when searching when you need to enter letters. Browsing on the iPod works great with the wheel, but searching isn't that good. I'm not sure if the wheel on the iPod has a patent on it, if it has and we can't even get a wheel I think browsing might also be a problem without a number pad. However, from the pictures it somehow looks like there is a wheel similar to the iPod, so this might not be an issue.

max.spicer
2007-08-26, 12:10
You're totally missing the point. It's got nothing to do with how many buttons or how many units it can control. It's all about how comfortable it is...

Max

PS So far, my testing team haven't tried out my Jive remote, but I'll provide feedback as soon as the results are in.


It's a little bit better but I would like still more buttons.

Nostromo
2007-08-26, 12:18
Am I the only one curious about the accelerometer? What will the motion sensing be used for?

max.spicer
2007-08-26, 13:00
Assumedly for working out when the remote's been picked up so it can turn on (or light the display) automatically.

Max


Am I the only one curious about the accelerometer? What will the motion sensing be used for?

andyg
2007-08-26, 13:09
Assumedly for working out when the remote's been picked up so it can turn on (or light the display) automatically.

Max

Yeah, right now that's all it's used for. But I bet someone will come up with other interesting uses... certainly games, or maybe a way to control things using gestures?

kdf
2007-08-26, 14:51
On 26-Aug-07, at 1:09 PM, andyg wrote:

>
> max.spicer;222984 Wrote:
>> Assumedly for working out when the remote's been picked up so it can
>> turn on (or light the display) automatically.
>>
>> Max
>
> Yeah, right now that's all it's used for. But I bet someone will come
> up with other interesting uses... certainly games, or maybe a way to
> control things using gestures?

If it's the standard Logitech accelerometer I don't think I would
want to count on it for a game.
My Harmony 880 is only a few months old and can sometimes require
quite a shake before it triggers the screen to turn on.
Gesturing might risk serious wrist injury

of course, now that we have an open source device to play with, we'll
get to find out for sure if it's a hardware limitation or something
that can be optimised by software.

-kdf

bossanova808
2007-08-26, 15:52
Defintely more hard buttons and less soft ones, and the apple 'feel wheel' is crap! The Sony 'jog' wheels from the early 90s are a hundred times nicer to use.

Given a LOT of people play music in the dark, the more than can be done by feel the better, if you ask me. Those Pronto things are a right pain to actually use....fortunately, based on Logitechs other products, it seems they're button friendly.

I could see two versions of this - one basically just Squeezebox friendly, and another model that had a lot more bells and whistles (ie buttons) for universal remote usage.

gb115b
2007-08-26, 17:08
i hope it doesn't get overloaded with buttons... i have an 865 IMHO its bugly...in fact maybe even fugly...(i mean really c'mon logitech, HCI design...heard of it?)

the slim one looks quite sleek and simple...

maybe a flip down / slide number pad would keep the aesthetic...

i always quite like context sensitive hard buttons, when they're used...

but i'd really like to use the majority of slim functions one handed... (and that's difficult if you have buttons on the side of the screen ala harmony)

also btw, i doubt there is a patent precluding the use of the scroll wheel as A. it's used in hardware form in other logitech products currently, and sonos remotes..and B. the part is produced by synaptics i think, not something apple came up with on their own...

i'd disagree with bossanova808's opinion that the scroll wheel is crap (just my opinion)...when i got my first ipod in 2002 it was absolutely revolutionary...however now that i can fit my entire cd collection (128k compressed) on my ipod, it's not so great at gettign through all my artists...it's a bit RSI inducing! i feel 'ipod thumb' syndrome is gonna get more common...so i'd like the number pad to quick jump to artists of a certain letter.

god i could talk about good UI design all day...but then its what i do for a living... :D

Nostromo
2007-08-26, 17:22
Yeah, scroll wheels are great. But the remote should still get a number pad. And, please, no button-filled monstrosities like the Harmony remotes. Keep it simple, clean and elegant.

gb115b
2007-08-26, 17:25
oh i forgot...shuffle and repeat buttons!

personally, it's one of the main things that annoys me about the ipod ui, its a real pain (too many clicks) to get to those options...

Nostromo
2007-08-26, 18:17
Do you ever turn repeat off? I don't. I could do without a repeat button. But I agree about shuffle.

dean
2007-08-26, 19:32
On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:51 PM, kdf wrote:

>
> On 26-Aug-07, at 1:09 PM, andyg wrote:
>
>>
>> max.spicer;222984 Wrote:
>>> Assumedly for working out when the remote's been picked up so it can
>>> turn on (or light the display) automatically.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> Yeah, right now that's all it's used for. But I bet someone will
>> come
>> up with other interesting uses... certainly games, or maybe a way to
>> control things using gestures?
>
> If it's the standard Logitech accelerometer I don't think I would
> want to count on it for a game.
> My Harmony 880 is only a few months old and can sometimes require
> quite a shake before it triggers the screen to turn on.
> Gesturing might risk serious wrist injury
It's not the same one. The 880 has a little mechanical switch with a
ball bearing in it that just senses motion. This Jive hardware has
a 3-axis accelerometer, which can sense orientation (due to gravity)
as well as motion in three dimensions.

Nikhil
2007-08-26, 21:55
Ben,

Since there is some similarity between the specs of this beta hardware remote and the Nokia 770/800 .. is there any chance of running this platform directly (with the requisite modifications of course) on a Nokia tablet (preferably without booting into the tablet OS at all)?

Nikhil

----------------------------------


I'll share a little
about the hardware inside the beta systems:

- 2.4" color TFT LCD, 240x320 pixels, 16bpp
- Mechanical scroll wheel
- 10 backlit buttons (play, add, go, home, back, vol-/+, rew, pause,
fwd)
- Samsung ARM9 CPU (S3C2412), 200MHz
- 64MB NAND flash
- 64MB mobile SDRAM
- Headphone jack
- Built-in speaker
- IR LED
- SD card slot
- 1250 mAh Li-Ion battery
- 3 axis accelerometer (for motion sensing)
- Charging stand
- Expansion connector that brings out: serial, USB (host or device),
audio out, audio in, 3.3v out, 5v in

mherger
2007-08-26, 22:47
> Since there is some commonality between the specs of this beta hardware
> remote and the Nokia 770/800 .. is there any chance of running this
> platform directly (with the requisite modifications of course) on a
> Nokia tablet (preferably without booting into the tablet OS at all)?

The Jive software has been open and around for a while now. It's already running on desktop class PCs, but I haven't seen a port for handheld devices like the Nokia, yet. But as it's based on Linux, too, I'd assume it should be feasible. I'd be interested in a Zaurus port, too :-)

Michael

gb115b
2007-08-27, 03:04
the hardware looks pretty final from the pics up on here..is there any room for additions at the moment...or is this what logislim are going with?

i would have 3 buttons on each side of the remote (perfect for index middle and ring when holding the controller one handed, and you can still access everything else with your thumb), and put the some of the controls up there, vol up / down...maybe a 'shift' button... (i think shift scrolling would be useful to get through large lists of artists...a bit like the way the ipod does it..but with more control)

still it looks pretty good to me (though not perfect)...

i'm so excited i could wee



has anyone got the software workign on any interesting portable devices?

oh any word on the battery life on this remote?

max.spicer
2007-08-27, 04:37
the hardware looks pretty final from the pics up on here..is there any room for additions at the moment...or is this what logislim are going with?
As Mickey says, "This is a release of a development platform to our community so they can continue their contributions to the Jive software platform, and not a product announcement. It is Logitech’s policy not to discuss future hardware plans." Basically, the end hardware may never be released, it may be released looking exactly like what we've got now, or it could be released in a totally different form. In the meantime, I doubt anyone from Logitech is going to comment further.


oh any word on the battery life on this remote?
As far as I know, the remote currently doesn't go into a proper power down state - it keeps the wireless active and various other bits fully powered. As a result, battery life isn't great at the moment, but this bears no reflection on any final product. Things should hopefully get much better with new firmware releases.

Max

peterw
2007-08-27, 20:10
i'd disagree with bossanova808's opinion that the scroll wheel is crap (just my opinion)...when i got my first ipod in 2002 it was absolutely revolutionary...however now that i can fit my entire cd collection (128k compressed) on my ipod, it's not so great at gettign through all my artists...it's a bit RSI inducing! i feel 'ipod thumb' syndrome is gonna get more common...so i'd like the number pad to quick jump to artists of a certain letter.


I don't much like the wheel, either. I've had Squeezeboxes for years, and just recently bought an iPod Video. I've tried the Apple firmware briefly and now use Rockbox.

With /good/ software, the wheel is alright for *rough* movements through *long* lists. With bad software (like the default Rockbox iPod build), it's *terrible* for moving through long lists. The pre-Jive Squeezebox remote's up/down keys are much better for long lists than wheel software that isn't well implemented.

I dislike both the Apple and Rockbox firmware for wheeling through short lists, or moving only a few steps. If I need to go up three items, I'd much rather press a button three times briefly than wheel up (eyes on screen), and then wheel down again if I overshoot (which I often do).

I'd much rather see something like the Gigabeat "+" control (http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review2817_main14093.html) if
- short presses moved one item
- lists scrolled faster the further your touch was from the center of the "+" (giving you the variable speed benefit of the wheel without the RSI annoyance of having to keep rolling your thumb around the wheel)

Or an old-school jog-dial like that on my VCR's remote control (whereever it is) -- variable speed, and easy to hold the jog dial at any one place to keep moving at the desired speed.

Or simple buttons. The wheel looks nice on this sample hardware, but having used buttons, jog dials, and iPod scroll wheels, I have a low opinion of scroll wheels. I much prefer the 4-way D-pad UI commonly found not only on the current Squeezebox remotes, but also DVD & TV remotes.

To liken tactile UIs to golf equipment, a well-done wheel (emphasis on well-done!) is a pretty good driver, but I have yet to see a wheel UI that's decent on the putting green. And I spend a lot more time navigating through short menus on my Squeezeboxes than I do scrolling through long menus.

Thanks,

Peter

MajorD
2007-08-28, 07:59
After using so many remotes in the past, I've finally settled on the shape, weight and fantastic feature-set of the Harmony series (I've got the Harmony 880). Logitech has secured this customer for a long time. As a strong advocate of a 1-remote living room, how could I justify the purchase of a 2nd remote; albeit a highly-functional super-cool SB controller? I think this will be a hurdle that the Logitech marketing team will need to counter.

If there's a way to take this exciting new Jive remote and combine it into a Harmony I will buy it. It sounds like others within this thread also have Harmony remotes - so hopefully this makes sense to Logitech.

Ben Sandee
2007-08-28, 08:05
On 8/28/07, MajorD <MajorD.2w16pz1188313201 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
> If there's a way to take this exciting new Jive remote and combine it
> into a Harmony I will buy it. It sounds like others within this thread
> also have Harmony remotes - so hopefully this makes sense to Logitech.


It seems obvious to me that any remote control product sold will be part of
the Harmony brand -- they won't make a SB-specific remote with so much power
that lacks the capabilities of their $70 harmony remotes.

Ben

MajorD
2007-08-28, 08:25
It seems obvious to me that any remote control product sold will be part of the Harmony brand -- they won't make a SB-specific remote with so much power that lacks the capabilities of their $70 harmony remotes.

Ben

Agreed, but sometimes companies miss the mark - Palm Foleo - and I hope Logitech really pays attention to all of their markets.

Rick B.
2007-08-28, 08:52
After using so many remotes in the past, I've finally settled on the shape, weight and fantastic feature-set of the Harmony series (I've got the Harmony 880). Logitech has secured this customer for a long time. As a strong advocate of a 1-remote living room, how could I justify the purchase of a 2nd remote; albeit a highly-functional super-cool SB controller? I think this will be a hurdle that the Logitech marketing team will need to counter.

If there's a way to take this exciting new Jive remote and combine it into a Harmony I will buy it. It sounds like others within this thread also have Harmony remotes - so hopefully this makes sense to Logitech.

I agree totally.

Nostromo
2007-08-28, 09:32
If people are willing to pay 400$ for the SONOS remote, why not 70$ for the new Squeezebox/Transporter remote? Anyway, I prefer to use a dedicated remote for certain devices, like my Squeezebox.

Nostromo
2007-08-28, 09:37
If I need to go up three items, I'd much rather press a button three times briefly than wheel up (eyes on screen), and then wheel down again if I overshoot (which I often do).

Weird, I rarely overshoot with my iPod Mini. Anyway, the new remote will sport a mechanical scroll wheel, not a tactile scroll wheel like the iPods. Maybe they're more responsive.

Rick B.
2007-08-28, 11:24
I already use a Harmony remote to control my Squeezebox and many other components. My SB is housed with everything else in an equipment rack away from my listening room. While an SB remote with display is certainly welcome, it does mean going back to using multiple remotes.

When Logitech took over Slim D. I guess I automatically assumed that a new Harmony with SB display would be forthcoming. That said, it will certainly cost me less to get SB display access from my listening room this way!

mvalera
2007-08-28, 13:23
As Dean has said before, plans for the Jive platform predate the Logitech acquisition.

The target hardware platform is solely a SMS biz unit design.

Mike

erland
2007-08-28, 15:26
As Dean has said before, plans for the Jive platform predate the Logitech acquisition.

The target hardware platform is solely a SMS biz unit design.
Even if this is true, I have to say that it would be really good if Logitech actually took advantage of the fact that the Harmony line is within the company. Most people don't want multiple remote controls, so if buying an expensive remote I think most people would expect it to do more than just controlling the SqueezeBox. The Harmony line is one of the best out there with its state remembering technology.

I agree with Rick B, I would have a very hard time convincing myself to buy this product unless it could replace the Harmony remote I currently have for controlling all my devices (including the SqueezeBox).

All people might not agree with me, but I'm pretty sure that all people that have bought a good universal remote control agree that it wouldn't be desirable to go back to multiple remote controls.

mvalera
2007-08-28, 16:03
Products can take a long time to develop. For example I think the MX Revolution mouse took around 2 years from start to launch. Again this platform was already underway when Logitech acquired Slim Devices, and was never intended to be a universal controller. This is the state of the target hardware platform as of today, who knows what the future might bring?

Saying that, the Jive hardware platform does have a IR led/blaster on board so whoever wants to code a plugin to control other hardware, such as an amp, feel free to hop on board with the developers.

bossanova808
2007-08-28, 16:32
I have to say, while it looks cool, I also wouldn't buy it if all it is a cover art displaying remote. If it comes free with an SB4, fine'n'dandy I might play with it, but I'd definitely not use it long term as the main remote.

Once you've gone universal with a harmony, it's pretty much impossible to go back. I agree with the above, integrating this with an existing Harmony platform would be the only thing I'd find interesting I'd say.

Which isn't to say that you'd find it very useful in competing with Sonos etc.

erland
2007-08-28, 17:05
Products can take a long time to develop. For example I think the MX Revolution mouse took around 2 years from start to launch. Again this platform was already underway when Logitech acquired Slim Devices, and was never intended to be a universal controller. This is the state of the target hardware platform as of today, who knows what the future might bring?

Saying that, the Jive hardware platform does have a IR led/blaster on board so whoever wants to code a plugin to control other hardware, such as an amp, feel free to hop on board with the developers.I guess I'm just hoping that you are also talking with the Harmony guys.

IMHO, it will never be able to compete with a Harmony remote as a universal remote control unless the hardware is built with this in mind, I'm afraid there is more to it than a IR LED. The open source philosophy behind it might get some community developers interested, but I don't expect them/(us) to be able to make it a Harmony replacement unless the hardware also has been designed with this goal in mind and Logitech also put in some resources(developers) to make this happened. Of course, it would be silly if another apartment within Logitech had a goal to replace the Harmony which is also made by Logitech, so I don't actually expect any of this to happen.

IMHO the natural next step after this initial product would be to make a Harmony based remote that supports Jive. Anyway, I guess I'll just have to wait and see what the future brings.

mvalera
2007-08-28, 17:40
IMHO, it will never be able to compete with a Harmony remote as a universal remote control unless the hardware is built with this in mind, I'm afraid there is more to it than a IR LED.


Again this platform... was never intended to be a universal controller.

I think I specifically pointed that out. I was implying that, if developed, the volume buttons on the Jive platform might be made to control your amp volume. I'm sure someone could even write a script to turn it on and off and get set it to the right input.


Of course, it would be silly if another apartment within Logitech had a goal to replace the Harmony which is also made by Logitech, so I don't actually expect any of this to happen.

That's not our intention, or the goal of our BU. Jive is a target hardware platform developed to control SlimServer and SqueezeNetwork.

That's the rub, because no remote really controls our hardware directly, only our software controls the hardware.

For example say you punch the track forward button on your ir remote, this sends the ir code to the Squeezebox, which relays the command to SqueezeServer or SqueezeNetwork thru your wireless or wired network. The server software then changes the song, and sends the music file back to the Squeezebox which decodes the file and sends it out the jacks to your amp.

The Jive target hardware does this in a completely different way. It's running the Jive software platform and the Jive UI which is basically a remote SlimServer/SqueezeNetwok interface. So you hit the track forward hard button, or better yet scroll to a completely different song or artist thru the graphically displayed menu of your entire music database. The Jive hardware then sends a message to your SlimServer/SqueezeNetwork via 802.11 to change the track, and the server software then sends the new music file to your SqueezeBox for decoding.

The Jive software platform requires a hardware platform with a wireless 802.11 connection. The Jive target hardware has a wireless 802.11 connection, no other remote in the world that I know of does.

erland
2007-08-28, 18:08
I think I specifically pointed that out. I was implying that, if developed, the volume buttons on the Jive platform might be made to control your amp volume. I'm sure someone could even write a script to turn it on and off and get set it to the right input.I'm sure it can be made to control the equipment that is related to the SqueezeBox. With a universal remote you want to do more than that, you want to control the TV, Media Center PC, DVD player, Projector and you want it all integrated so you can push one button "Play Music" and it sends the correct signal to every device/software involved in your setup and you want it to keep track if a device is on or off. The Harmony remotes does this very good. But as you have already said, this is not the intention with the Jive remote, its purpose is just to control the SqueezeBox/SlimServer/SqueezeNetwork and maybe related equipment need to play music through these devices.

To me this makes it just an expensive cover art browser and an extra remote on the living room table, but I'm sure there are other people that don't own a Harmony that would love it.

So, if I want a universal Harmony like remote that has a graphical interface to the SqueezeBox, is this something I should wish for here that the Logitech Streaming Media Systems department is interested in working for ?
Or is it something that is better placed as a wish at the Harmony forums ?

Nostromo
2007-08-28, 18:24
To me this makes it just an expensive cover art browser and an extra remote on the living room table, but I'm sure there are other people that don't own a Harmony that would love it.


Why do you assume it will be expensive? Is it based on the specs? I also wonder if the specs aren't overkill. I mean, some people already wrote some games for Jive. Who the hell wants to play games on their remotes?

And, no, I don't think its purely a cover browser. It promises to be a much more intuitive way to control your Squeezebox. Being able to see more than one line at a time is a nice improvement over the Squeezebox screen. (It could also mean the end of the VFD screens.) And the album art will make it more visually intuitive. I like it, overall. Except for the lack of a number pad, that is. But if they come up with a decent alternative, I'd be more than happy :-)

mvalera
2007-08-28, 18:52
To me this makes it just an expensive cover art browser and an extra remote on the living room table, but I'm sure there are other people that don't own a Harmony that would love it.

I've had every (almost) Harmony since the 688, and I think I will deal with 2 remotes no matter what the future might bring. The dedicated scrolling controls needed for music browsing and the plethora of buttons that I prefer for anything else means that a combined device would likely not be for me.


So, if I want a universal Harmony like remote that has a graphical interface to the SqueezeBox, is this something I should wish for here that the Logitech Streaming Media Systems department is interested in working for ?
Or is it something that is better placed as a wish at the Harmony forums ?

You should likely do your wishing in both places. However it is Logitech's policy not to comment on... yada yada yada.

erland
2007-08-28, 22:42
Why do you assume it will be expensive? Is it based on the specs?I guess it's a matter of much you feel the need for it is. For me this would just be another way of selecting music and the current way (with my Harmony 688) works pretty good. So if it will be sold at the same price as the Harmony 670, which is sold at $149 and don't have a color screen, it would be a lot for me compared to the problem it solves. If I just look at the problem it solves and ignore the specs I would pay maybe $50 for it, but as I said before I'm probably not going to buy it at all if it means an extra remote.

If you look at the specs with built-in wifi and a color screen, it would surprise me if we are talking about a price at about $50.

I don't want to go back to the situation 5-10 years ago when I had 5 remotes on the living room table, adding one more would be a step in that direction. If it should be interesting for me it would have to either be able to replace my Harmony or replace the laptop. Replacing the laptop means that it needs to be really good as a web browser which I don't think it will be considering the small screen. It won't be able to replace the Harmony unless it is built for it, which it isn't if I have understand things correctly.

Fortunately, there are people interested in it so I think it might still be a success, just not for me.
I'll wait for the future Harmony based version...

I also wonder if the specs aren't overkill. I mean, some people already wrote some games for Jive. Who the hell wants to play games on their remotes? The games were written before the specs were available. There will always be games on a device if it is possible to play games on it, the reason is simply that it's fun and often simple to develop small games. I would be surprise if Logitech has choosed the specs based on that they like it to be possible to play games on the device. The reason for the specs are probably to make it possible to have a nice graphical user interface, maybe with some animations.


And, no, I don't think its purely a cover browser. It promises to be a much more intuitive way to control your Squeezebox. Being able to see more than one line at a time is a nice improvement over the Squeezebox screen. (It could also mean the end of the VFD screens.) And the album art will make it more visually intuitive. I like it, overall. Except for the lack of a number pad, that is. But if they come up with a decent alternative, I'd be more than happy :-)My guess is that the wheel is supposed to replace the number pad, at least it looks like a wheel from the pictures. But it seems like the design would allow a number pad since there is a lot of empty space on the remote at the moment, so it might be added before releasing the real product.

I have a pretty small library and just play random music most of the time, which means that I really don't navigate on the SqueezeBox that much. I guess people that use the browse/search functionality more often might feel a bigger improvement than I am. People that like their SqueezeBox tucked away out of line of site will also probably like it due to the wifi communication with SlimServer.

I don't think it is going to replace the VFD screen on the SqueezeBox it self, because that has another purpose, making it possible to see what is playing across the room. I think it might be able to replace the browse/search functionality in the SqueezeBox interface some time in the future, moving all using interaction from the SqueezeBox display to the remote display. Hardware wise, this wouldn't reduce the cost much, you can remove the IR receiver but nothing more. Software wise, it means a bit simpler firmware in the SqueezeBox and the SqueezeBox user interface code in SlimServer could be removed.

erland
2007-08-28, 22:54
I've had every (almost) Harmony since the 688, and I think I will deal with 2 remotes no matter what the future might bring. The dedicated scrolling controls needed for music browsing and the plethora of buttons that I prefer for anything else means that a combined device would likely not be for me.There is no reason a universal remote like the Harmony can't contain a scroll wheel or a touch screen to make it work good for music browsing. The need for browsing isn't limited to music, you have pretty much the same problems with video on a media center PC where you also have a lot of items to browse among.

But I can understand that you don't want to add a lot of buttons to a remote which main purpose is just to make it easy and intuitive to navigate in your music library on the SqueezeBox/SqueezeNetwork. If you aren't aiming at making a universal remote, a lot of buttons doesn't make sense. So I now understands why the prototype is designed as it is, with only music related buttons.

sbjaerum
2007-08-28, 23:49
The Slimserver/Squeezenetwork just have many more possibilities than what a TV set or amplifier has. A much more advanced remote is therefore needed in order to take advantage of all the possibilities that Slimserver/Squeezenetwork offer.

An all-in-one device usually means a lot of trade offs. Many people buy an SLR instead of using the camera built into their cell phone...

Nostromo
2007-08-29, 07:14
My guess is that the wheel is supposed to replace the number pad, at least it looks like a wheel from the pictures. But it seems like the design would allow a number pad since there is a lot of empty space on the remote at the moment, so it might be added before releasing the real product.

Dean said it was a mechanical scrollwheel. They could probably find a decent alternative to a number pad. Lets just hope it'll be as efficient as Lazy search.


I have a pretty small library and just play random music most of the time, which means that I really don't navigate on the SqueezeBox that much. I guess people that use the browse/search functionality more often might feel a bigger improvement than I am. People that like their SqueezeBox tucked away out of line of site will also probably like it due to the wifi communication with SlimServer.

Not to mention all those people who asked for a SONOS-like remote. ;-)


I don't think it is going to replace the VFD screen on the SqueezeBox it self, because that has another purpose, making it possible to see what is playing across the room. I think it might be able to replace the browse/search functionality in the SqueezeBox interface some time in the future, moving all using interaction from the SqueezeBox display to the remote display. Hardware wise, this wouldn't reduce the cost much, you can remove the IR receiver but nothing more. Software wise, it means a bit simpler firmware in the SqueezeBox and the SqueezeBox user interface code in SlimServer could be removed.

But you don't need to see what is playing across the room if you have the new remote, you just have to look at the remote. So Logitech will save even more money if they remove the VFD screen. But, if that happens, I admit I'll miss the analog VU screensaver . :(

James_B
2007-08-29, 09:39
I have to say i was hoping the remote would have a large touch sensitive screen. I know it is far from the finished product but it looks a little ugly.. I am not so bothered about universal functions though, I just hope it has lots of "ease-of-use."

erland
2007-08-29, 09:48
But you don't need to see what is playing across the room if you have the new remote, you just have to look at the remote. I don't, but the rest of the people in the room need the SqueezeBox display unless I want to pass the remote around among the peoples in the room.

Nostromo
2007-08-29, 11:44
Or they can ask you what's playing ;-)

jclyle
2007-08-29, 11:55
I like what I see! I would pay up to $150 for the device the way it is now. I really like the fact that the unit sends the signal straight to Slimserver. That means my SB3 can be put in a cabinet out of sight, making the table I have my integrated amp on nice & clean, just the amp on top and nothing else. My wife might even buy one for me if it makes the living room look neater :)

Wifi would be an added bonus, but if it can be used like a Nokia 770 and browse album art etc thats fine with me.

Are we able to adjust slimserver settings using the new remote?

Milhouse
2007-08-29, 15:58
Just another vote for more hard buttons and universal remote functionality as part of the plan and not something that the community may develop if we're lucky.

My current Pioneer AV amplifier has a learning remote which controls the TV, Amplifier, DVD, TiVo and Squeezebox. As much as I like this Jive remote control which is Squeezebox savvy, I'll be damned if I'm going back to two remote controls when I've lived for the past several years with just a single do-it-all remote.

If this Jive unit is specific to the Squeezebox/Transporter, you'll be losing a vast number of potential sales. And for what? A few hard buttons (it would need a STOP button!), IR learning hardware (a few cents at most) and the development of software to support the learning functionality? It seems such a shame to ignore the potentital this has to be the ultimate universal remote.

Good luck, it looks great and has bags of potential - but sorry, simply not interested if this is in addition to my current universal remote. On the other hand if it were a replacement, I'd definately be buying one.

dean
2007-08-29, 16:12
The Jive hardware platform was designed to control the Squeezebox/
Transporter/SlimServer/SqueezeNetwork ecosystem via a wireless network.

It was not designed to be a universal remote. I totally agree (and
our friends on the Harmony team will agree too) that a universal
remote needs more hard buttons and possibly a touch screen. For
controlling your music library, we think we found the right balance
of buttons (more than an iPod, fewer than a Harmony remote). Another
key driver was to make sure that ordinary folks could pick it up and
discover how to use it without being intimidated by a vast array of
buttons.

We threw in the IR emitter mostly to see what the community would do
with the functionality, based on the interest that folks showed for
the IR Blaster functionality in Squeezebox. There are a few other
hardware features in there that have yet to be exploited: SD card
slot, headphone jack, 3-axis accelerometer. They don't make it
harder for people to learn to use, but do make it easier for our
smart developer community to add cool new features.

Just like when we introduced SLIMP3 and Squeezebox, we didn't imagine
all of the neat plugins that would result (RSS readers, games,
screensavers, AlienBBC, etc.) and we think that we're only scratching
the surface of what's possible with the Jive hardware and software
platform now.

Milhouse
2007-08-29, 16:29
Hi dean - I quite understand why you have designed it the way you have, however it just doesn't fit in with my requirements, in fact it jars with my requirements. And I don't think I'm alone.

I don't _need_ a fancy remote for my Squeezebox, however I would buy without a second thought a fancy universal remote that also happens to understand my Squeezebox.

We seem to be viewing this device from two different perspectives - Slimdevices view it as something which controls only the SB/TP, while I'm looking at it as something that could control all of my equipment in addition to the SB/TP. Your view is more limited, and imposes a requirement on me to maintain two remote controls which isn't something I find acceptable these days, and therefore I see no real value in the new Jive remote. It's nice, but the negatives outweigh the positives.

Maybe it's due to pressure from the Harmony business unit, but I think this Jive device is missing a major trick and will only have limited success when it could have been massive.

dean
2007-08-29, 16:41
On Aug 29, 2007, at 4:29 PM, Milhouse wrote:
> I don't _need_ a fancy remote for my Squeezebox, however I would buy
> without a second thought a fancy universal remote that also happens to
> understand my Squeezebox.

Me too. :)


> Maybe it's due to pressure from the Harmony business unit, but I think
> this Jive device is missing a major trick and will only have limited
> success when it could have been massive.

We're working very well with our new friends from Harmony. I can't
make any comments on future hardware, but they totally understand
potential of the Jive software and hardware platforms. :)

mvalera
2007-08-29, 16:49
Hi dean - I quite understand why you have designed it the way you have, however it just doesn't fit in with my requirements, in fact it jars with my requirements. And I don't think I'm alone.

I don't _need_ a fancy remote for my Squeezebox, however I would buy without a second thought a fancy universal remote that also happens to understand my Squeezebox.

Unfortunately that's not what we wanted to build. It's meant to do one thing well, wirelessly manage your music. It's a scalpel, as compared to the Harmony swiss-army knife.

Also it's much more then a "remote control". Think of it as a fully functional, multi room capable, music manager that fits in your hand. Or if it creates a better image, a mini-SlimServer.

Milhouse
2007-08-29, 16:52
> Maybe it's due to pressure from the Harmony business unit, but I think
> this Jive device is missing a major trick and will only have limited
> success when it could have been massive.

We're working very well with our new friends from Harmony. I can't
make any comments on future hardware, but they totally understand
potential of the Jive software and hardware platforms. :)

Maybe there needs to be two Jive-based devices... a Squeezebox/Transporter centric version (great in the bedroom etc. for those with multiroom systems) and a Harmony version which adds universal remote support. Can I place an order for the latter? :)

Milhouse
2007-08-29, 16:54
Unfortunately that's not what we wanted to build. It's meant to do one thing well, wirelessly manage your music. It's a scalpel, as compared to the Harmony swiss-army knife.

Also it's much more then a "remote control". Think of it as a fully functional, multi room capable, music manager that fits in your hand. Or if it creates a better image, a mini-SlimServer.

I get it, I (and possibly others) just don't want it - and certainly not in my living room with my single Squeezebox, TiVo and DVD player as it means a second "remote".

I'm sure the other functionality will be great but this controller falls at the first hurdle in terms of my use case - I don't want a second remote control. At the very least this Jive remote must control the volume on my amp... but then I'd want it to power the amp on/off as well. And then I'd wish that I could control my TiVo with this fancy little Jive remote, at which point I begin to realise how much it doesn't do that it *could* do.

Hopefully Harmony will release the Jive-based controller that I want, leaving Slim Devices to target the multi-room Squeezebox market (a pretty negligible market I'd have thought, tbh). I want the Jive controller to be a success (because it's a great concept) but in it's current form (which I realise is only for development) it's just not for me.

erland
2007-08-29, 17:21
> Maybe it's due to pressure from the Harmony business unit, but I think
> this Jive device is missing a major trick and will only have limited
> success when it could have been massive.

We're working very well with our new friends from Harmony. I can't
make any comments on future hardware, but they totally understand
potential of the Jive software and hardware platforms. :)
Thanks dean, this was the statement I was waiting for, now I have some hope again.

A Harmony remote that was able to provide a graphical interface for the SqueezeBox would be great. If this also made it possible to execute third party Jive code on the remote it would be even greater.

kdf
2007-08-29, 17:43
I get it, I (and possibly others) just don't want it

and everyone got that when you said it the first time. Great for you (and as we've seen, others) to say your peace, but please also leave room for others to give their feedback aside from repeating the same things over and over again. It would be a real shame miss the benefit of knowing what works and doesn't work within the scope of what the device is intended to do. That way, those who DO want something to manage their music get the best possible manager.

The past has already proven that SD, now LSMS have listened to customer requests, but do not comment on future hardware. What you see clearly isn't what you want, but no one is going to say whether the next device will or won't be what you want, so there cannot possibly be any back and forth discussion based on "this isn't what I want".

Having tried one out for a while myself, yes a touch screen would have been cool. While it doesn't apply to me, that might mean it puts the cost out reach for some, or eats up battery power too fast. I think it looks nice as a display, however. The accelerometer doesn't excite me much so far, but last night while watching the debug it looks like it might be very responsive. There could be some potential there.

I'm not sure I see a way to fit a text pad, I wouldn't want it crowded or bigger for this purpose but it does need some way to "jump" through very long lists. I've never had the desire to use an ipod so I cannot make a comparison. I do have a Sansa e280 which seems to do well enough with just a wheel on a long list, so I expect there should be some room for firmware to improve the wheel response on Jive. I've tried the few games, and I'm not sure the platform really lends itself to games just yet. As an single-handed information browser, I can see myself getting very used to that for a quick glance at the latest rss headlines.

I have a Harmony 880, and I love it. I do still tend to use the squeezebox remote anyway because it has the specific music controls readily available (the soft buttons are "too far" on the Harmony for stuff you use often). For beta testing, I've put it aside just to seewhether the Jive will serve for the task as well. Only enough time so far for first impressions, so time will tell. I wouldn't mind being able to put away the various SB remotes all over the house, however if a non-line-of-sight device is easy to use.

-kdf

Milhouse
2007-08-29, 18:09
and everyone got that when you said it the first time. Great for you (and as we've seen, others) to say your peace, but please also leave room for others to give their feedback aside from repeating the same things over and over again. It would be a real shame miss the benefit of knowing what works and doesn't work within the scope of what the device is intended to do. That way, those who DO want something to manage their music get the best possible manager.

The past has already proven that SD, now LSMS have listened to customer requests, but do not comment on future hardware. What you see clearly isn't what you want, but no one is going to say whether the next device will or won't be what you want, so there cannot possibly be any back and forth discussion based on "this isn't what I want".


Dude... I've just given my opinion on this device and Dean and Michael have replied, that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned... I actually think it led to some interesting input from Dean, so maybe there is scope for something else beyond what is currently planned. I'm not expecting the product to be redesigned to fit my needs over the course of a few forum posts, however I did feel it worthwhile to confirm what others have already said which is that this product doesn't currently fit my particular needs. If nothing else it should show that there is a market for a more capable device, which can be considered for the future.

The fact that SD/LSMS have listened in the past is why I chimed in with my 2 cents... but if you'd rather we all shut up and get with the programme that's fine by me. :(

Grahame
2007-08-29, 18:21
I'm not sure I see a way to fit a text pad, I wouldn't want it crowded or bigger for this purpose but it does need some way to "jump" through very long lists.
-kdf

A thought for long lists - a similar problem exists with large lists via the knob on the transporter, although you can spin quite quickly though the lists - kudos on the "spin" acceleration.

Any chance of having a "hierarchical" mode for the list.
Instead of having all the items in "flat" list, segment the list by some means e.g. A-Z, the first letter of the item in the list, so initially you have a much smaller (26+ item) list to browse through, then descending a level jumps you into the larger (flat) list at that point.

e.g. Artists
A -> Acoustic Alchemy
...
J-> Jamiroquai
....Lots more Starting with J
....Judie Tzuke
K-> Kate Bush
...
Z-> ZZ Top

Where 10cc end up is left as an exercise for the reader :)

So say you wanted to listen to some Judie Tzuke

You could get to Artists, Start with Acoustic Alchemy then engage in a lot of scrolling to get there.

With a hierarchical Mode , it would be
Artists ->A
Scroll to J ->
Scroll to Judie Tzuke

Or faster yet
Artists ->A
Scroll to K -> Kate Bush
Scroll back 1 to Judie Tzuke

Yes, it adds one more level of indirection to get to where you want, but it means you are much closer in the browse / search space when you get there.

Any comments?

[EDIT]
I wondered where I had seen his kind of hierarchical browsing before, then I remembered - The Rio Karma!
I think the trekstor vibez has the same menu / browsing system

James_B
2007-08-30, 02:21
Since this project looks like it might actually be affordable, will it support multiple devices? Although sadly this is not a requirement of mine yet some people with large houses etc..

mick_w
2007-08-30, 02:58
I think the new remote looks fantastic and would hate to see it grow into a mega-buttoned monster universal remote.

My guess is a new prospective Squeezebox buyer wants an elegant interface to select and play music, not a horribly complicated looking multi-functional ‘techie’ remote control.

To use a musical analogy…

If the current Jive Remote was Jimmy Hendrix, then a Universal Remote would be the crazy man on the street corner with a drum on his back, symbols between his knees, harmonica in his mouth and a guitar in his hands…

Sometime ‘more’ doesn’t equate to being better…

I personally believe Slim/Logitech have got the configuration just right, I’d buy one.

sbjaerum
2007-08-30, 03:30
Since this project looks like it might actually be affordable, will it support multiple devices? Although sadly this is not a requirement of mine yet some people with large houses etc..

From one Jive remote, you will be able to control all players connected to a Slimserver or Squeezenetwork.

Fred
2007-08-30, 03:35
From one Jive remote, you will be able to control all players connected to a Slimserver or Squeezenetwork.

More precisely, from one Jive you can control all players connected to ALL local SlimServers and to SqueezeNetwork.

I doubt many people do run more than one SlimServer, save for Dean :), but Jive does scale.

HTH

Fred

)p(
2007-08-30, 03:42
Anyone else feels like me that it would look better if the volume down icon would point left instead of to the right on the remote?

peter

James_B
2007-08-30, 03:46
From one Jive remote, you will be able to control all players connected to a Slimserver or Squeezenetwork.

Sorry I meant are multiple jive remotes supported?!

mherger
2007-08-30, 05:22
> Since this project looks like it might actually be affordable, will it
> support multiple devices?

Yes, you can select which player to control. This can even be a SliMP3 or SoftSqueeze.

Michael

mherger
2007-08-30, 05:24
> Sorry I meant are multiple jive remotes supported?!

Yes, you can use several Jives to control your single player or any other player.

Michael

boerner
2007-08-30, 17:15
Just throwing my two cents in on the new device...

The one area where I felt the whole Squeezebox universe was lacking was in the remote control arena. The new standard remote addressed some of the issues, and the touch interface for slimserver in combination with my Nokia N800 addressed others (thanks Ben K).

The new Jive hardware platform will complete the ecosystem in my mind. I imagine myself being able to sit in my listening chair and just look at a nice simple interface in my hand to control my music. My eyes are not the greatest, so even at the largest font size the Squeezebox was getting harder to read. Although the N800 skin and hardware are great, it never seemed as elegant as the rest of the whole implementation.

I myself am waiting with baited breath for the new device. It looks much simpler (and hopefully less expensive) than the Sonos remote (which was the one thing I thought Sonos did right :-)To Sean et al, looks like beautiful work. Please keep it up.

Now, if Slim Dev, err I mean Logitech would just introduce an official SlimNAS product...;-)

RobHall
2007-08-31, 03:46
This is a great development. There willl be a good market for a device like this.

Currently I offer my clients the Nokia n800 as a remote control and they are very happy with it. Some really like the fact they can use it as a web browser and check their email etc. I think Internet Tablets have a strong future as web browser / email / home automation control / etc. So please continue to support Internet Tablet skins (lots of potential for cool Flash interface here).

Other clients, usually older clients, just use their Nokia n800 for their music. This piece of hardware would be perfect for them and anyone else that doesn't want to buy something as expensive as an Internet Tablet.

Don't let anyone distract you with talk of Universal Remotes.
A) Frankly it is a little geeky.
B) Not what your "cool" conscious customer is going to get turned on by.
C) Not what you do.
D) Hard enough to get everyone to agree on 5 Buttons....
E) Might not be ready for Christmas 2027.

Very much agree with Logitech branded NAS type thing. I would however prefer a Digital Media Server (DMS). Let's face it NAS doesn't have the processing power, nor much flexibility. Nobody out there is making a Digital Media Server with enough disk space. That's why I make my own.

More people will be wanting a home server, to store all their pictures, music, movies and back up their documents. I set mine up so the user just slips an audio CD into the box and it automatically rips it and then ejects it. A connection to the internet allows for CD information to be downloaded. I use a mirrored 2 disk array to store the data, in case a hard drive fails. The DMS can be tucked away somewhere in the house, with a wired connection to the home network (powerline adapters work well).

jclyle
2007-09-02, 16:11
Does the unit have a hold, or lock feature on it? Since it's Wi-fi based, and small, it would be nice to keep it in my pocket while roaming around the house or wherever and disable the keypad while its in my pocket.

superbad
2007-09-03, 00:47
I've been waiting for this for about 4 years, ever since I returned my POS Creative Sound Blaster Wireless Music box to buy a Squeezebox. That Creative thing sucked, but the remote was fantastic.

So hurry up, I'm ready to buy this today. :) And, FWIW (not much probably), I have no interest at all in any universal remote. I don't even have cable.

fluffybeastie
2007-09-04, 05:47
Don't let anyone distract you with talk of Universal Remotes.
A) Frankly it is a little geeky.
B) Not what your "cool" conscious customer is going to get turned on by.
C) Not what you do.
D) Hard enough to get everyone to agree on 5 Buttons....
E) Might not be ready for Christmas 2027.



I agree somewhat - the comparison with universal remotes is a little unfair in light of the primary purpose.

In my household we use a SqueezeBox connected to an amp that is shared between a number of sources.
From that perspective, i can see the benefit of being able to switch the source of the amp - that I might come into a room, fancy listening to some music and be able to reach straight for the jive without the need to also grab hold of the amp remote or use the amp front panel (because i can't find the remote)
Some moderate control over 3rd party devices would be handy for this.

BlueWombat
2007-09-05, 09:40
I want to voice my opinion that you should stay away from the Universal Remote idea for now. Focus on the Squeezebox/Transporter. The universal remote idea looks like the kind of thing that could be extended later.

I have seriously been frustrated at the fact that I use my squeezebox less than I planned. I really liked the idea of doing away with the CD player and all of the disks, and being able to easily mix tunes, but to be honest, the Squeezebox display/remote isn't enough and I don't want to always get up an go my computer (my kids are doing something at it half the time anyway). I've actually been eyeing the Sonos stuff because the remote looks like just what I need. Yes, I tried a bluetooth connection with my old Palm device, but it just didn't cut it.

The proposed Jive platform device looks like what I need. If you try to make it do too many things for too many people coming out the gate, you will be less likely to see success. Save me from wasting a whole lot of money on a Sonos! ...Bring on the Jive remote (soon!)

erland
2007-09-05, 17:26
Just to set my vision for the future, Apple has just announced the iPod Touch device:
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/

I would be in heaven if I could get something similar that:
- Could control my SqueezeBox
- Could be synchronized with my SlimServer library, so I could take part of my library with me in lossy format when I go out
- Supported Jive, so I could develop my own extensions
- Made it possible to buy and preview music in lossless format and download it automatically to my SlimServer library. The wifi music store features on the iPod Touch really show the potential, it's just too bad that the music probably is in lossy and DRM protected format so it can't be played on the SqueezeBox.

I'm aware of that it isn't exactly the same type of device as the Jive Remote, but maybe something like this could be something to aim at in the future ?

I imagine that a pretty sure thing is that someone will at least make a SlimServer skin that looks nice on the iPod Touch.

I know I mentioned universal remote functionality earlier, but I think I just realized that if I instead could get a combined remote+portable device that would be so much greater.

ezkcdude
2007-09-05, 22:05
Just to set my vision for the future, Apple has just announced the iPod Touch device:
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/

I would be in heaven if I could get something similar that:
- Could control my SqueezeBox
- Could be synchronized with my SlimServer library, so I could take part of my library with me in lossy format when I go out
- Supported Jive, so I could develop my own extensions
- Made it possible to buy and preview music in lossless format and download it automatically to my SlimServer library. The wifi music store features on the iPod Touch really show the potential, it's just too bad that the music probably is in lossy and DRM protected format so it can't be played on the SqueezeBox.

I'm aware of that it isn't exactly the same type of device as the Jive Remote, but maybe something like this could be something to aim at in the future ?

I imagine that a pretty sure thing is that someone will at least make a SlimServer skin that looks nice on the iPod Touch.

I know I mentioned universal remote functionality earlier, but I think I just realized that if I instead could get a combined remote+portable device that would be so much greater.

I started a thread on the Touch in the Audiophile section as soon as I read about it today. Someone replied that they (already) use the Nokia 770 skin on their iPhone (which is pretty much the same interface), and it works great. So, I think the Touch could make a great, if not inexpensive, wi-fi remote. (And it is definitely one sexy beast.)

Pale Blue Ego
2007-09-05, 22:57
I like the idea of the Jive Remote and from what I've seen I like the design. It makes a lot of sense as far as taking the next step forward. The SB3 player platform is solid and one of the most-requested improvements has been for a more graphic controller interface. This will put Slim in direct competition with Sonos.

I'm glad it's a dedicated remote instead of a universal. It can develop into a nice graphical info display and controller, not just for your music but for all the other riches Slimserver can gather. It'll be able to deliver information from the 'net along with much richer graphics.

This should help make it easier for a novice to learn how to use the Squeezebox. It's more of an iPod interface, which a lot of people already understand.

I could see something like this being the standard remote for the next-gen SB, and of course being offered as an upgrade for current SB remotes. Maybe they'll offer the SB3 with standard VFD and candy bar remote -OR- with no player display and the graphic Jive remote.

Again, it looks like a worthy effort and the next logical step for Slim/Logitech.

gb115b
2007-09-07, 05:47
>Don't let anyone distract you with talk of Universal Remotes.
>A) Frankly it is a little geeky.
>B) Not what your "cool" conscious customer is going to get turned on by.
>C) Not what you do.
>D) Hard enough to get everyone to agree on 5 Buttons....
>E) Might not be ready for Christmas 2027.

C it might not be what slim does...but it certainly is what logitech / harmony do.... why no use their expertise...or jsut make it open source like everything else, and let the geeks make it into a Universal Remote...

my better half is getting extremely pissed at the number of remotes i have lying round the place, and the harmony i bought didn't cut the mustard (for her)...

havign said that i will definitely settle for a dedicated remote still (to bring my remote tally to 8)...as i've been crying out for this for a long time....

hope it comes out sooner rather than later...

maybe i can *evaluate* it a bit further for you guys!

rchris
2007-09-07, 09:41
Any idea when a jive remote will be availale to the public?

Thank you,

Chris

funkstar
2007-09-07, 10:57
Any idea when a jive remote will be availale to the public?

Thank you,

Chris
Logitec do not talk about forthcoming products. But it isn't going to be befoer SlimServer 7 is released. Slated for 8th October apparently. We'll see.

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?SlimServer7Spec

EDIT: actually, it should have been in Beta for about a month, but it is still in Alpha, so we can assume it is a month behind schedule.

Balthazar_B
2007-09-09, 11:38
I don't think I've seen this discussed in the couple of Jive platform threads already out there, but the question occurred to me when my brain had nothing better to do:

If the handheld relies on 802.11 (wireless) access for most of its operations, and it has no alphanumeric keypad, how does one enter the proper security codes for WPA2 (for instance) encryption? Will the base allow the connection of a USB keyboard or something?

Just wondering.

max.spicer
2007-09-09, 11:55
I don't think I've seen this discussed in the couple of Jive platform threads already out there, but the question occurred to me when my brain had nothing better to do:

If the handheld relies on 802.11 (wireless) access for most of its operations, and it has no alphanumeric keypad, how does one enter the proper security codes for WPA2 (for instance) encryption? Will the base allow the connection of a USB keyboard or something?

Just wondering.

It has a virtual keyboard - you can enter any standard combination of letters, numbers and punctuation. When you're entering a letter, the scroll wheel moves you up and down through a vertical column displaying the "alphabet" and the centre button moves you on to the next.

Max

Phil Leigh
2007-09-10, 11:50
I think it looks great and will sit happily alongside my 7 other remotes in my little "remote farm"...one day I must finish programming my universal...but I'd be really happy with just the two!

However, please please give it a number/alpha pad! Lazy Search is the best plugin ever and mandatory for a large collection - I can't imagine life without it!

Nostromo
2007-09-10, 19:44
I agree, Lazy search is amazing. I use it all the time. But I doubt there will be a number pad. That said, I bet they'll find a nice alternative. How does the virtual keyboard work, BTW?

Greg Friedman
2007-09-11, 08:21
I agree totally.


Hi dean - I quite understand why you have designed it the way you have, however it just doesn't fit in with my requirements, in fact it jars with my requirements. And I don't think I'm alone....
I don't _need_ a fancy remote for my Squeezebox, however I would buy without a second thought a fancy universal remote that also happens to understand my Squeezebox...

I don't post much here, but I've owned multiple SBs for years and have been an active advocate for the brand. I also own multiple Harmony 880s and have owned a number of other programmable universal remotes.

The simple programmability combined with the flawless statefulness of the Harmony remotes have made them an integral part of my music listening and home theater setups. In both rooms, I click "Listen to Music" and my components go on or off to set up the right state. The Harmony's LCD screen has labels for controlling the SB - "Add, Search, Repeate, Shuffle, Size, Now Playing, ...". Transport controls are all present in hardware buttons.

I've actually been enthusiastic about Jive because I assumed that I'd buy new Jive-based Harmony remotes which extend the experience I've got into my music collection. What I mean here, and I know that this is what others are saying, too, is that I want to click "Listen to Music" and then, on the same device, navigate my music collection. That scenario makes sense to me and enabling it is, frankly, why I thought that there was synergy between Slim and Logitech.

The notion that Jive requires me to keep another remote around and switch back and forth between a Harmony and a Jive is pretty unpalatable. The fact that the Jive beta remotes are so "remotish" looking contributes to this. They just don't look like anything special. They look like another remote, albeit one with power consumption requirements that will require me to set up another charging station and actively keep the thing charged. At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, I'll add that the Sonos remote panels don't impact me the same way - I've used them, and I like them. They're multi-handed with a big screen. Maybe I would have felt better about Jive if you'd initially showed us something other than a remote-control form factor...

Where I think this may land you guys is that the new remote might be an interesting SB accessory if it's cheap. I think $150 at the outside max. I'm not particularly budget constrained but I don't assess the value as greater than this. Above that price, I'll probably hold off.

One final thought about aesthetics. I hope that the remote will be able to lie flat in a charging station rather than sit vertically.

Still a fan, but a little disappointed...

erland
2007-09-11, 11:31
Greg, I think you listed the advantage of a Harmony remote pretty good. As I've stated previously, I pretty much have the same wish as you, a Harmony based remote with a graphical integration with SlimServer.

However, now when I have thought about it some more, I think Logitech is doing the right thing here. It would have taken too long time to wait for a Harmony based solution and the Jive work had already started before the Logitech merge. My guess is that a Harmony based remote is at least a year away, maybe more. The new SqueezeBox Jive remote can also be a good way to test Jive a bit before integrating it into a Harmony based remote. Dean has already stated earlier in the thread that they are talking to the Harmony guys, so if Jive is a success on the SqueezeBox remote we will probably see something similar on the Harmony line in the future.

In the current situation, we just have to face the fact. The SqueezeBox Jive remote will probably be released with similar functionality as the prototype, it won't be the perfect universal remote, so this makes it uninteresting for some people. But as we already have seen in the thread there are people that are very interesting in the remote with the current functionality, mainly:
- People that have a simple setup with few devices.
- People that like to control the SqueezeBox from another room.

As with all products, some people will like it and some won't.

I've two wishes for the future:
1. A Harmony based universal remote control with graphical interface to control the SqueezeBox.
2. A portable device that can control the SqueezeBox and can be synchronized with the SlimServer library.

The first case would replace my current Harmony remote, the second would replace the iPod but still result in two remotes. In the second case I think I would still in some situations control the SqueezeBox with my current Harmony and in other situations I would use the portable device. Last week I looked at the iPod Touch preview videos, a similar portable device that worked good with the SqueezeBox is my dream for the future. The biggest potential IMHO would be an integration with something similar to the new iTunes Wifi Music Store.

kdf
2007-09-11, 14:15
My guess is that a Harmony based remote is at least a year away, maybe more. The new SqueezeBox Jive remote can also be a good way to test Jive a bit before integrating it into a Harmony based remote.

Definitely value in seeing what third party contributors come up with before you commit to something in the Harmony world. Jive is open source. Harmony is not, and may never be, but could benefit from seeing what people do with the open source platform and how they use it.


it won't be the perfect universal remote

It won't even be universal without some third party hacking. It seems very much targetted for the multi-player home network based on the SD hardware players.

-kdf

bossanova808
2007-09-11, 15:59
I'm not really disappointed because it seems a least like a little progress finally - since getting an SB2 about three years ago, Slimserver has barely changed, the SB3 was nothing but a minor aesthetic improvement, and the Transporter while by all reports a lovely thing, is just too expensive for me and seems like a bit of a hack in some areas (two screens instead of one big nice one, stupid fancy knob no one uses since the world is 99% remote now, and those silly carry handles that make it rather unpleasant looking - all my opinion, not facts). In Audio terms it sounds awesome - stick it an SB3 box and charge $600 for it and let the money rain from the sky. Not that I know anything, most likely that wouldn't work/be profitable.

I've been waiting years now for an SB4 or some significant changes to Slimserver - a better audio path (I have a $200 DAC that massively improves the SB2 so I figure some of that clever stuff could be incorporated in a mid range product), maybe a VGA/DVI/HDMI out for those of us that would like a bigger screen option sometimes, smart playlists (I mean seriously Erland's plugin is great but this should have been integrated years ago), much better web interface, etc etc. Slowly, very slowly, Slimserver 7 seems to be getting somewhere, and at least this remote is triggering interest in some new front end development, even if for me like the others above it's the wrong form factor (I agree - Harmony universal or much nicer form factor, not another remote).

So - it's at least some real, visible progress and it seems like we now know what the engineers etc have been doing - even if, so far, it's pretty much not interesting to me, it is at least some move forward.

And I really think a move forward is needed now! I'm not saying Slim haven't been working VERY hard, just that most of what they;ve been doing the last couple years has not had an impact on the lower/mid end of the market which I presume is where most of their business has come from - and quite franly, since the SB2, there hasn't been much of interest happening.

dugbee
2007-09-12, 10:12
I'm not one of the lucky testers of Jive, but I'm curious nonetheless. I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of the Jive. Am I to spend $299 on a Squeezebox, and then another $??? on the Jive remote? I first saw pictures of the Jive, and immediately assumed (hoped) it was an updated Wireless DJ, albeit with a quality DAC and/or digital out.

Meaning, I'd love to be able to get a Jive that had a docking station with quality audio out (be it digital or a DAC), and be done, and not have to spend another $299 for what essentially amounts to a nice VFD display as an accessory to the Jive.

Surely I'm missing something!

azinck3
2007-09-12, 15:08
I'm not one of the lucky testers of Jive, but I'm curious nonetheless. I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of the Jive. Am I to spend $299 on a Squeezebox, and then another $??? on the Jive remote? I first saw pictures of the Jive, and immediately assumed (hoped) it was an updated Wireless DJ, albeit with a quality DAC and/or digital out.

Meaning, I'd love to be able to get a Jive that had a docking station with quality audio out (be it digital or a DAC), and be done, and not have to spend another $299 for what essentially amounts to a nice VFD display as an accessory to the Jive.

Surely I'm missing something!

You're not missing something...it's just that it sounds like your desires aren't precisely in line with the "need" that Jive's targetting. Jive's especially good for folks who have multiple SB's and want an attractive, centralized, mobile interface to control them. I currently use a Nokia770 for this purpose. The Nokia leaves much to be desired and I look forward to trying out Jive.

While I personally like the VFD -- it's centralized, anyone can read it from a distance without having to pick up a remote (people like being able to look over and see the current track), it can display time/rss/weather info and visualizations, it allows me to use any universal remote with it, etc -- you're right that not everyone will need/want the display on the SB if they buy a Jive so I wouldn't be surprised to see a display-less squeezebox marketed at a lower price point in the near future; indeed, it seems like an incredibly obvious and lucrative thing for them to do.

Don't forget that no one's "forcing" you to buy a Jive...you bought your Squeezebox, it does what it does. Offering a Jive *in addition* as an option just gives us more choice and makes the SB even more versatile.

dugbee
2007-09-12, 16:51
Thanks for your thoughts. However, I don't actually own a Squeezebox - yet - which is why I'm curious about this platform. I'm still one of those (gasp) Roku owners, and I can attest to the beauty of the VFD on the SB3. When I saw it in person, I *really* wanted it, including the desire for plugins and flexibility. Though, (like many of us here) I'm a gadget freak and can justify (rationalize) such things. And I've overcome some of the Roku's display limitations by using a PocketPC to control it, so it's just an old-school Jive. :)

However, I do think that presently, the Squeezebox at its $299 price, falls a bit into the "niche" area of the general consumer. Which would make a device with a sole purpose of controlling the SB even *more* of a niche item.

So, I agree that a display-less unit with quality audio would appeal to a much wider audience, versus what in reality amounts to a remote which controls a single device.

So my question still stands - is the target market of the Jive strictly for those that own or will someday own Squeezeboxes? Or is it a we-can't-tell-you-what-other-features-might-be-included and it could really stand on its own? Please? :)

funkstar
2007-09-13, 08:00
Just to clear something up guys. The remote isn't a product at the moment, offiially it is an engineering concept of what could be produced at some point n the future :)

And the remote isn't "a Jive". It is a remote for SlimServer that uses the Jive software platform.

Oh, and another point, Logitec don't discuss future products before release, so any speculation about future hardware is exactly that... speculation.

:)

MrC
2007-09-18, 16:46
I received my unit yesterday, and started to explore it today. I think this is one very nice piece of hardware - nice work!

I have to disagree with those who don't feel this device has a place. In fact, I think it would work wonderfully in our house.

My wife's SB3 is behind her on an end table in her office; she's constantly turning herself around to fiddle with her music choices. The jive remote is perfect for her, sitting right beside her.

I can also see this as an excellent, backyard slimserver remote that controls the outdoor zone. I once brought one of our SB3's to the catered bar station during a work-function / party my wife had here for her co-workers. This device would have been perfect at the time... just hand the remote to the bartender, who then seconds as a DJ as well.

Two comments on the hardware itself.

*) I fumbled a number of times with the forward/back buttons, as they are in different rows. I think those two buttons should be in the same row (eg. swap the Home and Right button). No remote I've used has the two buttons separated the way the jive remote has them, and muscle memory is hard to defeat.

*) I like the wheel. Yet, I keep pressing it either up/down, or left/right. I'm so used to our DishNetwork remote and its placement of up/down/left/right. Again, muscle memory. I suppose if a wheel/4-axis button piece of hardware existed and was available, it would have been used instead.

I'm looking forward to seeing what software is developed for this device. I like the idea of gestures, and basic IR functionality to do some basic component switching.

I'll end with a question. I didn't notice how to Power Off a squeezebox from the remote. How is that done ?

[edit: never mind. I just found that this was a bug, and a fix is now checked in.]

Again, nice work!
MrC

kdf
2007-09-18, 16:58
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5498

update your build tomorrow and you'll have the fix.

-kdf

pfarrell
2007-09-19, 17:47
Since I do embedded wireless systems for a living, I have biases.

I'm totally in agreement with the Jive-remote as a small project. Its not the universal remote that some folks love (I've bought many of them over the years, and still have four remotes on my end table).

Getting the Jive-remote into beta is a big deal. Turning it into a product is a big deal. Some folks will buy it, others will want something more, better, faster, more universal, etc.

Once the Jive-remote for the SqueezeBox/Transporter is working, its a lot easier for the Harmony folks to make something that takes the working layouts and firmware and adds hard buttons, etc.

I've only had mine for a couple of days, but I like it.

bruceleecc
2007-09-20, 19:44
Sorry if this has been discussed, I didn't scroll through all of the pages...

Is it possible to allow the headphone jack to stream the audio that is playing through slimserver? If not, how feasible is that? One great feature of the Nokia 770/n800 is the ability to listen to it as an audio source when in another room other than where your speakers are...

bklaas
2007-09-20, 19:50
Yes, through slimserver's stream.mp3 url, but there's a significant buffer to contend with. I wrote up detailed directions a couple years ago which still apply:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?SlimserverAndNokia770

For listening to streams directly on the 770/N800, I suggest you use Canola on the Nokia paired with a uPnP server on your PC.

http://openbossa.indt.org/canola/

cheers,
#!/ben

bklaas
2007-09-20, 20:04
whoops...I read your post wrong. You're talking about the Jive HW.

on the headphone jack: it's not enabled right now. It has potential to be enabled in the future. If enabled, its potential for streaming slimserver to the headphones is better than what the Nokia will ever be able to provide on that front, because you will not need to contend with the buffer lag.

cheers,
#!/ben

bruceleecc
2007-09-20, 20:19
Sounds good. I think audio stream to the remote, coupled with headphones, would be a great feature, since honestly i don't want to spend an additional $300 for another box in my bedroom or office.

To comment briefly on the whole universal / simple remote... I personally have been debating whether to spring for a $170 Amazon.com Nokia 770 to control the squeezebox... I would love an opportunity to buy a $50-$75 Jive-based remote (simple, not universal for that price) and save $100. However, if it's upwards of $100-$150, why buy it? I'll just spend another $70-$20 and get a great internet tablet. So... personally speaking, make this simple and cheap, but with a great UI.

Oh, and I own a 1991 RCA TV with an Antenna, with my stereo in a different room, so maybe I'm just odd.

bossanova808
2007-09-22, 22:16
Agreed if this thing can stream audio, making it a portable Squeezebox for all around the house, it gets seriously interesting. Even if its MP3 only..

Which makes me wonder - can the server (V7) be set up so that it can stream FLAC/WAV to a squeezebox and MP3 to another device...ie per player streaming rules rather than per server. If not ... that would be a sensible addition, would it now?

Hopefully some attention is being paid to the audio output stage if this IS on the cards....would be a shame to have the headphone socket there but get only something shabby out of it. I presume since Sean has learned so much about audio quality with the TP etc, that this is on the radar.

erland
2007-09-22, 22:32
Which makes me wonder - can the server (V7) be set up so that it can stream FLAC/WAV to a squeezebox and MP3 to another device...ie per player streaming rules rather than per server. If not ... that would be a sensible addition, would it now?
I suppose this would be possible in 7.0 since it is already possible in 6.5 and earlier releases. It's available as the "Bitrate limiting" options under "Player Settings" in the web interface.

toby10
2007-09-28, 12:23
So... personally speaking, make this simple and cheap, but with a great UI.



Well said! Me, being the most unsophisticated person using a SB, could not agree more. I understand peoples desires to want an "all in one" device, but that means making it complicated and adding numerous buttons. Though, to be fair, I've never used a Harmony.

I've played with the Sonos device at Best Buy on several occasions. What makes the Sonos remote so nice is that any moron (myself included) can figure it out. I think any Jive SB remote should be simple enough to hand the remote to a guest who has never even heard of a SB and say "here, you pick what you want to hear".

I'm betting, in time, there may be two SB oriented remotes:
1. the "Jive Squeeze" remote, solely for use with SB
2. the "Jive Squish" remote to SQUISH all of your remotes into one :) but with SB features

Having played with the Sonos remote, I'm hoping the Jive SB remote will have:
- large(ish) screen, bigger is better
- "return" button, takes you up ONE level of file location from where you are now (very handy on the Sonos remote)
- dedicated part of the screen to ALWAYS show bit rate & format whether in Internet Radio (SN) or computer source (SS) (note: this is NOT on the Sonos remote, but should be)
- MINIMAL programmable IR options, like just to control volume & mute on your AV receiver (I don't need this remote to rotate my rooftop antenna)

So, now you've heard from the peanut gallery (me)! Keep it simple for us simple minds. :)

Daryle Tilroe
2007-09-28, 22:44
With a 5 Squeezebox household and as a longtime Slimdevices customer and a sometime contributor I think this device could make a nice addition to the kit/experience. Wish I was on the beta program.

One aspect I haven't seen talked about yet (may have just missed it) is the possibility of using this as a roaming portable player. I assume that with a wi-fi connection it could function off the Squeezenetwork, however, some sort of ability to download to the SD card and playback as a standard player while totally offline would make a nice feature. One less device to own (ie. bye bye mp3 player) and it would help justify a higher price being both a cool remote but also the portable player for your Slimserver library.

PS. I should also note that related possiblity of streaming live over the internet from one's library to a Jive at a remote site is a killer app for me. I often use softsqueeze at work in just this manner. Being able to walk around the office and listen to my entire collection would be awesome.

bruceleecc
2007-09-29, 20:08
Logitech - I'd be interested in testing Jive if that's a possibility. If not, I guess I'll just cross my fingers that you guys make this available and wait till then.

It's nice to see such a huge open community for a retail product. Really adds a sense of ownership to the product and feeling of involvement. Hope it continues under Logitech management.

CardinalFang
2007-10-03, 14:51
Yeah, right now that's all it's used for. But I bet someone will come up with other interesting uses... certainly games, or maybe a way to control things using gestures?

One thing that I would find useful would be a motion to mute sound immediately, like a shake of the handset. Since it's an accelerometer I'm assuming it can't detect steady state orientation? So we're looking at sudden motions? A twist of the wrist to skip forwards or backwards a song would be cool - I'll have to do some research on the Wii we have at home!

mflint
2007-10-04, 04:55
One thing that I would find useful would be a motion to mute sound immediately, like a shake of the handset. Since it's an accelerometer I'm assuming it can't detect steady state orientation? So we're looking at sudden motions? A twist of the wrist to skip forwards or backwards a song would be cool - I'll have to do some research on the Wii we have at home!

Earlier in the thread, I'm sure someone said it harnesses the power of gravity to detect the device's orientation. (Or words to that effect)

It's funny, but when I first used a Wii remote I wondered whether it could be hacked to control SlimServer with the "flick up/down/left/right" actions. Surprised to see that there haven't been more mentions of Wii...

Matthew

Daryle Tilroe
2007-10-04, 19:44
Since it's an accelerometer I'm assuming it can't detect steady state orientation? So we're looking at sudden motions?

So are you in space or a free fall orbit? ;-P Gravity: the acceleration you barely notice.

CardinalFang
2007-10-05, 17:43
So are you in space or a free fall orbit? ;-P Gravity: the acceleration you barely notice.

As it happens, neither.

Accelerometers aren't always used for measuring inclination via static gravity measurements, sometimes they are used to measure vibrations and motion, and sometimes both. I had assumed that because it reacted to motions that it wouldn't give static inclination readings. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Daryle Tilroe
2007-10-05, 22:12
Accelerometers aren't always used for measuring inclination via static gravity measurements, sometimes they are used to measure vibrations and motion, and sometimes both. I had assumed that because it reacted to motions that it wouldn't give static inclination readings. Perhaps I'm wrong.

It really all depends on sensitivity and software. Accelerometers measure vibrations and motion are via the changes in acceleration or jerk and possibly also the snap and higher order derivatives (these are actually the technical terms, crackle and pop have also been proposed as terms for the higher orders for obvious reasons :D ). For example if you accelerated a device to a velocity and then deccelerated it below the accelerometer measurment threshold the software would still think it was moving. The point is, given a modern 3 axis accelerometer of reasonable sensitivity and a predictable gravity/acceleration field you can do anything you want in software. From the specs this seems to be what is in the Jive.

FLMike
2007-10-15, 13:55
Just a note to say that this looks really, really great. I've been toying with the idea of getting a mini PC and a touch screen for the living room or maybe a Nokia, but neither option really satisfied me. I hope this makes it into production and soon because this is the missing piece of the Squeezebox solution from my perspective.

I am a heavy Rhapsody user. Is the device going to support Squeezenetwork/Rhapsody effectively?

Mike

Murph
2007-10-31, 08:06
I'd sum this up in the first technical term that came to my mind as soon as I read what your up to.

SWEEEEEET !!

Loki69
2007-11-08, 18:30
yes yes, a very nice device if i must say so. lovin it

earthbased
2007-11-13, 09:23
The Jive target hardware uses 802.11, and it actually controls SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork. The unique way our devices work means that our hardware (Squeezebox and Transporter) is actually controlled by our server software (SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork) so the Jive actually controls the server which, in turn, controls the players.

Make sense?

Mike

Cool. When is this going to be released for purchase?

Mark Lanctot
2007-11-13, 09:27
Logitech never comments on release dates, and the JHB is still in *very* active development, with multiple changes daily.

earthbased
2007-11-14, 04:26
Is this also going to have IR to control other equipment with Harmony Activities?

Mark Lanctot
2007-11-14, 12:33
It does have IR and it's just been enabled in "testing" mode (it emulates an SB remote).

It would depend if Logitech business units compete with each other. If they do, then Harmony wouldn't want the remote doing what one of theirs could. But it could be developed as a plugin? Just a generic universal IR remote at first, it would depend if Harmony's web configurator allows 3rd parties to use it.

I must say I like the idea! Even just a simple universal remote plugin would be cool.

Dean L. Surkin
2007-11-25, 20:53
Would I be correct in saying that the Jive hardware is meant to compete with the Sonos system?

--Dean L. Surkin

Balthazar_B
2007-11-25, 22:02
No, not exactly. While the Jive remote will mostly eliminate one point of current differentiation between the Slim and Sonos systems, they are still architecturally (and functionally) very different, even though at a high level they are intended to provide similar services to largely the same market. In other words, the two systems already compete with each other, but the Jive platform is (IMHO) a relatively minor part of HOW they compete.

Mark Lanctot
2007-11-26, 15:53
It was mostly at the request of users on this forum from what I can tell. Some users did want what Sonos was offering so it's indirect.

funkincubator
2007-11-28, 13:45
I'm very excited about this, and I'm bummed that I dumped $350 into the Nokia770 a year ago. The Nokia is nice, but I got it to be a Slim remote on the patio, since I couldn't have a squeezebox outside. $350 seemed like a good deal at the time since I was comparing it to Sonos' $400 remote (and lame proprietary wireless access point).

I just thought I'd mention this as a great potential use for the Jive remote. I'm assuming it will be much faster than the Nokia, and you can control a listening zone without looking at the squeezebox display. Logitech should definitely highlight this feature...or send me one to beta and I'll shoot a demo and put it on youtube.

socialxray
2007-12-05, 02:30
This is what I've always wanted for my Squeezeboxes!

If it is anywhere near $50 I WILL BUY AT LEAST ONE MAYBE TWO!

I have 3 music zones and this device would solve so many problems.

I have always wanted a way for a guest to easily browse my music library. I get so tired of explaining how Lazy Search works and let's face it, the VFD does not convey the power of the Squeezebox to a newbie. It stirs the curiosity but does not have that WOW factor. Vain? YES!

It would also be nice to have something that is more intuitive for my wife and kids.

I have always wanted to control my outdoor music zone without having to lug the laptop outside. Once the battery dies its a trek inside to change the music or volume.

I have always wanted to have guests at parties be able to control the playlists without giving them access to my laptop.

The last one is a major problem since I have had incidents where rude people have started mucking around my laptop instead of just browsing my music selection.

I don't see why people are getting confused/perturbed by the current stand alone nature of the remote. I think there is room for both a stand alone remote and a harmony based one. I would actually get both if they were available. A harmony based solution would be great in my home theater but I do not want to carry my expensive Harmony remote around outside or lend it to people at parties.

Mark Lanctot
2007-12-05, 11:16
If it is anywhere near $50 I WILL BUY AT LEAST ONE MAYBE TWO!

Sheer speculation on my part but I bet the screen alone is worth more than that!!

It looks and feels like a ~$200 device to me. And it's competing with the Nokia 770/800/810, so I would expect to see it in that price range.

The Sonos remote is $399 IIRC. Hopefully Logitech can do better than that but $50 doesn't sound realistic based on what's in it - see the specs at the start of the thread.

Bradley
2007-12-08, 09:38
The Jive hardware platform was designed to control the Squeezebox/
Transporter/SlimServer/SqueezeNetwork ecosystem via a wireless network.

It was not designed to be a universal remote. I totally agree (and
our friends on the Harmony team will agree too) that a universal
remote needs more hard buttons and possibly a touch screen. For
controlling your music library, we think we found the right balance
of buttons (more than an iPod, fewer than a Harmony remote). Another
key driver was to make sure that ordinary folks could pick it up and
discover how to use it without being intimidated by a vast array of
buttons.

We threw in the IR emitter mostly to see what the community would do
with the functionality, based on the interest that folks showed for
the IR Blaster functionality in Squeezebox. There are a few other
hardware features in there that have yet to be exploited: SD card
slot, headphone jack, 3-axis accelerometer. They don't make it
harder for people to learn to use, but do make it easier for our
smart developer community to add cool new features.

Just like when we introduced SLIMP3 and Squeezebox, we didn't imagine
all of the neat plugins that would result (RSS readers, games,
screensavers, AlienBBC, etc.) and we think that we're only scratching
the surface of what's possible with the Jive hardware and software
platform now.

I'm wondering if there is a plan for Jive Remote/SB3 Wireless capability that could be set up to be a limited, secure wireless network for the sole purpose of communicating with the remote(s).

I currently have 6 SB3's in my residence, along with a hard-wired network. I don't have or want b/g/n wireless capability in my residence. I view it as a security vulnerability, as I live in NYC in a very congested area and it's extremely easy to monitor wireless network traffic from dozens of wireless networks, right from my doorstep.

However, I would permit a capability where Jive remote(s) could link wirelessly to SB3's provided the buck stops there. No other device could access the network through the SB3's nor would the SB3's broadcast any network packets other than those specifically targetted for the Jive remote(s).

Overall, I think the Jive Remotes sound like an intriguing platform and I am excited about them provided they do not open up my household to wireless security issues.

Dean (SD et al), what are your thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance,

*Bradley

LikeButtah
2007-12-08, 14:55
zomg, that looks so hot. Can't wait for it to be available. I want 6.

pichonCalavera
2007-12-09, 03:48
I just browsed through all this thread and there are a lot of interesting discussions and points, but it would be great if someone posted more pictures or even a video, to give us a better idea of the "feeling" of this remote.

rodney_mckay
2007-12-20, 07:55
Since August, I am the proud owner of a squeezebox. i am very satisfied. Slimserver is running on my WHS server. Works great! And now a remote control, yes i want to test it... Great work guys...

syburgh
2007-12-28, 10:49
Holiday parties are mostly over, and I've seen Sonos remote controls inspire undisguised jealousy among the gadget loving set on both sides of the Atlantic (and Central America). This Jive dev kit could compare quite favorably to Sonos, and appears designed to accomplish exactly that (plugins could make it even better).

This needs to get to market ASAP as without such a remote control it is hard to pitch SB3 compared to Sonos. Harmony integration would also be nice to have, but might be a good way to add value to a later product. The mostly open state of the server software is interesting to the tech savvy but the allure of portable blinkenlights is attractive enough for people to pull down walls and rewire entire homes/rooms. $150 price would be ideal, but I expect to pay more for v1.0.

Note-- 802.11[bg] is near-inoperable in many metropolitan areas (i.e. Manhattan). A Jive device + SlimNAS-type box (with working SoftSqueeze, 802.11 radio, and automatic CDDA extraction) + SB3 package might be as much kit as many new customers ever need...

nicoleif
2007-12-29, 11:09
Holiday parties are mostly over, and I've seen Sonos remote controls inspire undisguised jealousy among the gadget loving set on both sides of the Atlantic (and Central America). This Jive dev kit could compare quite favorably to Sonos, and appears designed to accomplish exactly that (plugins could make it even better).

This needs to get to market ASAP as without such a remote control it is hard to pitch SB3 compared to Sonos. Harmony integration would also be nice to have, but might be a good way to add value to a later product. The mostly open state of the server software is interesting to the tech savvy but the allure of portable blinkenlights is attractive enough for people to pull down walls and rewire entire homes/rooms. $150 price would be ideal, but I expect to pay more for v1.0.

Note-- 802.11[bg] is near-inoperable in many metropolitan areas (i.e. Manhattan). A Jive device + SlimNAS-type box (with working SoftSqueeze, 802.11 radio, and automatic CDDA extraction) + SB3 package might be as much kit as many new customers ever need...

Does anyone have a release date for the new remote?
/Nicoleif

Toy Maker
2007-12-29, 19:40
Just going to add my cent and a half here....

I tried my best to stay away from the "Apple Monster" for years !!! But even I was sucked into the iPhone trap.
After having my iPhone for about 5 months, I have to say, (they nailed it the 1st time) of course there is room for the next versions upgrades, and add-ons.

My point is, Apple nailed the touch screen and the "Coverflow" view. That is what I need when trying to navigate my 6000+ songs in SlimServer.

I would LOVE to see a better, more user friendly interface for SlimServer. The current CP is ok, but no where near the smoothness of iTunes yet. and keep in mind I HATE iTunes, but damn it's sweet.

fredz
2007-12-30, 03:41
Is it still possible to get/buy a JiveBDK remote?

tamanaco
2007-12-30, 08:31
Can someone at SD/Logitech give this "Often-Requested-Long-Overdue" remote some priority. The current prototype shows a lot of promise. A remote one can hold with one hand and do the things one does with a color LCD portable DAP, but using it to navigate large music libraries via the SC and SB3s/Transporters. Com'on guys... is about time... don't wait for the competition to catch up and pass you by. I know that not everyone is asking for this, but it comes up often enough for SD/Logitech to kick it to the next level.

Mis dos centavos

dean
2007-12-30, 15:55
I can assure you, the Jive hardware platform is our highest priority
right now.

Alas, it's a big project and we appreciate the help and patience of
everyone in our community.

Stay tuned for more news. Soon.

tamanaco
2007-12-30, 17:45
I can assure you, the Jive hardware platform is our highest priority
right now.

Alas, it's a big project and we appreciate the help and patience of everyone in our community.

Stay tuned for more news. Soon.

The SB3 is off, but I'm starting to hear celestial voices comming from it... wait... wait... the snow screensaver saver just came up...

Thanks Dean... just what my SB3 wanted to hear.