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jaysung
2007-08-02, 11:52
Hello,
I wonder if the guys over at Logitech are being absolutely mad? Why? Because of pricing changes to the transporter over here in Europe / Germany...
Prices are being constant $2000 for the US ONLY they don't ship to Europe anymore. Why? NO explanation just a link to Logitech.com. Where exactly the same unit is priced arround 2500 Euro! I don't have to tell you about currency exchange rates at the moment.
I was planning to get a transporter as soon as I could afford it... That is to say a month ago I would have been able to purchase it over in the US and get it shipped to to my door and pay via credit card. That would have been arround 1500 Euro for exchange rates at the moment. Now Logitech one of the big players aquired slimdevices. Good choice would I think although their products are not quite mass market I guess. But Logitech has all the developements Sean Adams and his fellows have put so much work in. Being able to manufacture these units on a bigger basis perhaps maybe the prices would drop and with a big name on them the would eventually reach mass market in Europe... But the oposite is true. The funny thing about this is that with all the developement done the units shouldn't be to expensive to make. I think Slimdevices had their calculations and had areasonable chance to actually refund their developement. Why does logitech make such a difference amongst their customers now. Is it all about !SQUEEZING! the last bit of profit out of a company that was only aquired to disapear in Logithech's drawer's? Why should I just because I happen to live in Europe pay about 150% of the price every body in the US pays??? Anyway, it is your decision. The squeezebox REALLY makes music accessable for blind persons because CDs arn't easyly recognisable if you can't see the covers and the perspective of the possibility to browse a music collection by a web browser actually made me buy a decent hifi thinking to hook up a transporter. But I think you have actually lost a customer. :( I know it's just "take it or leave it" and I shouldn't kikc my can all over the place. But just notice that there might be other potential european customers who arn't too happy. And well, "We will rock you!"
But you don't care anyway? To often are good ideas bought ONLY to be thrown into the bin.
But perhaps there is an explanation? Perhaps it's just European power suplys that are out of stock? :o

amcluesent
2007-08-02, 15:25
Corporates will want an internal rate of return of at least 20% on investment, anything less and their Group Treasury would prefer to keep cash on the money markets.

Logitech paid out $20M for Slim Devices IIRC; they know that gouging of UK consumers is easy. $2000 in the USA and £1700 in the UK for a TP when the US:GBP rate is 2:1!

snarlydwarf
2007-08-02, 16:25
No, the winner is the Wireless DJ Music System.

179 pounds.

or on the US site, $99.

Methinks something broke on their exchange rate conversion, that is just plain silly.

UK: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/devices/216&cl=gb,en
US: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/devices/216&cl=us,en

y360
2007-08-02, 23:36
It does seem odd
There are several mail forwarding agents in the US that can forward your merchandise
I can personally recommend http://www.maillinkplus.com/

jaysung
2007-08-03, 00:38
No, the winner is the Wireless DJ Music System.
Yep, maybe bought for 20M bugs just to be out of the way to disapear in the drawers. Favouring that wireless dj music system because yep, that is the mass market trash we are used to I'd bet! Sell it! I won't be up for it! That would indeed be a reason to now a get transporter before those sort of devices disapear completely from the mp3ish audio climate we are living in these days.

killie99
2007-08-03, 01:53
Transporter is approx £1300 in most places I can see in the UK (advancedmp3, broadbandstuff, multitask, superfi). $2000 = £1000, add in vat @ £175 and it not a million miles away from the price you have to pay. Where did you see it for sale at £1700?


Corporates will want an internal rate of return of at least 20% on investment, anything less and their Group Treasury would prefer to keep cash on the money markets.

Logitech paid out $20M for Slim Devices IIRC; they know that gouging of UK consumers is easy. $2000 in the USA and £1700 in the UK for a TP when the US:GBP rate is 2:1!

Siduhe
2007-08-03, 01:58
Where did you see it for sale at £1700?

Here (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/) - on Logitech's own site which is now the "direct" source for Slim customers in Europe.

killie99
2007-08-03, 02:26
I guess it would be unwise to buy direct from Logitech then. I wonder if the 3rd party resellers are going to see this price hike as well?

Anyone from Logitech care to answer?


Here (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/) - on Logitech's own site which is now the "direct" source for Slim customers in Europe.

adamslim
2007-08-03, 05:54
I guess it would be unwise to buy direct from Logitech then. I wonder if the 3rd party resellers are going to see this price hike as well?

It is clearly a matter of time. Most resellers have the Transporter at the old £1,300 price, but have no stock. Assuming a 30% mark-up (low?), they will have to buy at £1,308, so I doubt they'll be willing to sell at £1,300!!

The answer, of course, is to exercise your ultimate right as a consumer - don't buy from that channel. US maildrops or trips to New York anyone? (Or just buy an SB+, still only £1k!)

Adam

bpa
2007-08-03, 06:42
I think the OP has forgotten about duty and VAT - rather than Euro 1500 - I think after tax and delivery charges the cost would be about Euro 1800-2000 - still cheaper but not as big a price difference.

st2lemans
2007-08-03, 07:05
The Swiss price is CHF3500, or about $2900. And Swiss VAT is only 7.6%, so
that's a markup of about $750

Tom

ultra238a
2007-08-03, 08:28
Hi Guys,

Just to confirm that the SRP in the UK will be going up to £1699 inc VAT.

I am sure that there will be a couple of units at the old price knocking around in the UK if you are quick.

amcluesent
2007-08-03, 08:34
>the SRP in the UK will be going up to £1699 inc VAT<

The 2nd hand one I picked up for less than a bag of sand a few weeks back now looks like a great jellied eel:)

mattybain
2007-08-03, 09:13
>the SRP in the UK will be going up to £1699 inc VAT<

The 2nd hand one I picked up for less than a bag of sand a few weeks back now looks like a great jellied eel:)

This is unbelievable, I can't believe they are trying to screw us Europeans. Well screw you Logitech, never going to touch one of your products again.

Makes that Amazon price increase seem less like an error and more like the SB3 is going up £50 here too.

Just when I thought things were looking up.

snarlydwarf
2007-08-03, 09:27
This is unbelievable, I can't believe they are trying to screw us Europeans. Well screw you Logitech, never going to touch one of your products again.


You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?

mattybain
2007-08-03, 09:29
You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?

And? what difference does that make??? still trying to screw us. Makes it even worse.

snarlydwarf
2007-08-03, 09:31
And? what difference does that make??? still trying to screw us. Makes it even worse.

Because you make it sound like an 'us and them' sorta thing with "us europeans"...

mattybain
2007-08-03, 09:52
Because you make it sound like an 'us and them' sorta thing with "us europeans"...

Yep I guess it did, wasn't my intention.

Just makes me angry when any company (doesn't matter where they are based) tries to screw the Europeans and especially the UK. It's the same with most big companies.

SD used to be different, but not any more :(

snarlydwarf
2007-08-03, 10:06
It just confuses me as to why their pricing seems random (see the prior most-bizarre-price: $99US, or 159 pounds... i mean that would make sense if the pound was worth 75 cents or something, but it's not..).

That just convinced me that whoever is doing their prices should be subjected to some random drug testing...

jaysung
2007-08-03, 10:28
HI !
BPA wrote:

I think the OP has forgotten about duty and VAT - rather than Euro 1500 - I think after tax and delivery charges the cost would be about Euro 1800-2000 - still cheaper but not as big a price difference.
Hey, that sounds like the explanation I didn't expect to get. I however had nearly filled the order form and got little more than $2K after shipping costs. I am not aware however which specific taxes would apply. At least those would have to be taxes slimdevices was not aware of! Cause as far as the ordering form told me it was not much more than 2k bugs.
But would be curious for any enlightenment on that.


SD used to be different, but not any more :(
I think that sums it up very well! I just found the idea to buy a unit directly from the producer genious. It made the whole thing trustworthier a bit. After all a dealer is a dealer. I was just into the idea of buying a unit from a company where I could get the ceo here on a web forum!!! Where is he actually? Sean?!
It is about support and future developement. After all slimserver was open source and I liked that! I can't possibly think of myself as a Logitech community member. SD used to be different...

bpa
2007-08-03, 11:20
VAT rate vary by country but examples values are
Denmark 25%
ireland 21%
Germany 16%

This would be applied to product and shipping. I think duty should be zero but in Ireland I knows UPS adds a charge of about 5%


Also UPS has a tax collection fee of about Euro 15.

Example.
I recently received a US$299 SB3 from the US and UPS demanded Euro 76.09

Price: US$299 = Euro 216
Tax: Euro 76
Total: Euro 292

Cost of SB3 in local dealer = Euro 299.

Also - my credit card copany has also started adding a 1.75% cross border fee for any international transactions.

NeilH
2007-08-03, 11:59
I have been a Slim Devices customer for some years. I would like to continue as a Logitech customer, but not with this level of predatory pricing.
Maybe it's time for some open source hardware to match the open source software.

There are a lot of very capable tech types out here ;-)

ultra238a
2007-08-03, 12:06
The Amazon.co.uk price rise is an error and it will return to £195 tomorrow. When the error was pointed out to them today they changed it on their system straight away. Unf. it takes 24hrs to roll out such a change.

SRP for Squeezebox in the UK has actually come down from £229 to £219

killie99
2007-08-03, 12:32
At £1300 I could almost justify buying a transporter, at £1700 I'm afraid it stinks of extracting the urine and Logitech will not be seeing my money.

I think it is a great pity that a company which was once highly regarded by the vast majority of people on this forum has been swallowed up and become something we probably, deep down, all knew too well would become. Corporate bean counters have had their way and I'll be very surprised if sales of the transporter in Europe don't fall through the floor. As a consequence, 12-18 months down the line the product will be dropped for being "uneconomical". Fairwell high end music streamer and retain the mass(??) market product which can be churned out of China for pennies? Let's face it, Logitech are a mass market company whether we like it or not and a non mass market product won't cut the mustard for them.

Slimdevices were clearly not selling a transporter at a loss (unless they had a very peculiar business model) and at an educated guess I'd suspect it costs around $500 to manufacture one (I've worked as an electronic engineer in the computer manufacturing industry for over 20 years so I'd be surprised if i'm far off the mark). Nice little earner if you can sell it for £1700 and make about $2000 per unit and if it doesn't sell you kill if off and get rid of that expensive west coast operation as they can't survive from US sales alone.

I wonder if Jim or Sean would care to comment on the European price rises and the impact they believe it will have on sales and the future viability of what was SlimDevices?

For me, the emperor is wearing no clothes .....

katabasis
2007-08-03, 14:28
I have been a Slim Devices customer for some years. I would like to continue as a Logitech customer, but not with this level of predatory pricing.
Maybe it's time for some open source hardware to match the open source software.

There are a lot of very capable tech types out here ;-)

Same here, i am a happy european owner of two sb, planning to purchase a Transporter instead of upgrading my dac, but after this i will (sadly) forget the idea and look for alternatives

TCM
2007-08-03, 14:53
Sweden [VAT 25 %]

If I'll compare buying from Logitech (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/), with the best prices in Sweden according to http://www.prisjakt.nu.

Transporter:
Logitech SEK 25000:- [$3635] Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
inWarehouse.se SEK 18990:- [$2761]
SlimDevices [US] SEK 13746:- [$1999]

Squeezebox:
Logitech SEK 2999:- [$436]
Komplett.se SEK 2495:- [$363]
SlimDevices [US] SEK 2055:- [$299]

erland
2007-08-03, 17:45
Transporter:
Logitech SEK 25000:- [$3635] Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
inWarehouse.se SEK 18990:- [$2761]
SlimDevices [US] SEK 13746:- [$1999]

Squeezebox:
Logitech SEK 2999:- [$436]
Komplett.se SEK 2495:- [$363]
SlimDevices [US] SEK 2055:- [$299]

When comparing US prices and national Logitech site prices, remember to add VAT on the US price.

Transporter SlimDevices [US] + Swedish VAT(25%): SEK 17183:- [$2499]
SqueezeBox SlimDevices [US] + Swedish VAT(25%): SEK 2596:- [$374]

The Squeezebox price actually doesn't seem that strange, a $299 product in US is usually sold at about SEK 3000 ($446) in Sweden. So the SqueezeBox price is quite normal in my opinion.

But the Transporter price seems strange, if the same percentage was added as on the SqueezeBox this would give a price at about SEK 20060 ($2983) which seems a lot more resonable than the current Logitech price at SEK 25000 ($3635)

Either this is an error on national prices on the Logitech site or they have some sort of strategy to only sell Transporter devices to certain countries.

Hopefully, someone from Logitech will soon read this thread and give us some sort of answer.

TCM
2007-08-03, 23:19
When comparing US prices and national Logitech site prices, remember to add VAT on the US price.

Transporter SlimDevices [US] + Swedish VAT(25%): SEK 17183:- [$2499]
SqueezeBox SlimDevices [US] + Swedish VAT(25%): SEK 2596:- [$374]

The Squeezebox price actually doesn't seem that strange, a $299 product in US is usually sold at about SEK 3000 ($446) in Sweden. So the SqueezeBox price is quite normal in my opinion.

But the Transporter price seems strange, if the same percentage was added as on the SqueezeBox this would give a price at about SEK 20060 ($2983) which seems a lot more resonable than the current Logitech price at SEK 25000 ($3635)

Either this is an error on national prices on the Logitech site or they have some sort of strategy to only sell Transporter devices to certain countries.

Hopefully, someone from Logitech will soon read this thread and give us some sort of answer.

Well, that's true, it was primarily the Transporter price I was "shocked" about. But you've got a product (SB3), that's been on the ever changing technology/home entertainment market for 2-3 (?) years. The prices usually go down after a while (and they have, the 3 lowest prices in Sweden 2495, 2749, 2789). I find it rather strange that Logitech now sets a price of 2999 (incl. VAT I guess, but without shipping costs). Who in Sweden do you think will buy from Logitech, when the Swedish companies selling for a lower price are all well known? [or maybe I'm just naive and they will raise their prices to the same level as Logitech ;-D]

erland
2007-08-03, 23:50
But you've got a product (SB3), that's been on the ever changing technology/home entertainment market for 2-3 (?) years. The prices usually go down after a while (and they have, the 3 lowest prices in Sweden 2495, 2749, 2789). I find it rather strange that Logitech now sets a price of 2999 (incl. VAT I guess, but without shipping costs). Who in Sweden do you think will buy from Logitech, when the Swedish companies selling for a lower price are all well known? [or maybe I'm just naive and they will raise their prices to the same level as Logitech ;-D]
I agree, increased price on existing products is quite unusual in this business, it happens from time to time when exchange rate changes though. But I'm not sure this is actually a price increase, after all the US price is the same as before. The reason is probably that the distribution channels has changed, earlier the products was distributed by SlimDevices or third party companies, the prices we see on the Logitech site is based on the Logitech distribution costs.

The reason for the SqueezeBox increase is probably because Logitech feels like they have higher distribution costs to ship the product from US to Europe than what for example Komplett.se have. This feels a bit strange to me, but if you look at some other Logitech products, you can see similar effects (although the differences is a bit smaller):

Logitech Harmony 1000:
- From Logitech SE: SEK 3699:-
- From some different online stores within Sweden: Below SEK 3400:-

MX Air™ Rechargeable Cordless Air Mouse:
- From Logitech SE: SEK 1499:-
- From some different online stores withing Sweden: Below SEK 1200:-

Maybe they prefer to sell the product through third party online stores instead of selling it from their own online store ?

So unless Logitech recently have raised the Swedish price on all their products I'm not that worried about the SqueezeBox price. It will probably be available from other online stores at the approximately the same price as it is today, and Logitech will try to sell it a with a bit higher price from their online store.

The Transporter is another matter though, as mentioned before it seems to have a lot bigger difference between the US and Swedish price when comparing with other Logitech products.

vrobin
2007-08-04, 05:20
It's strange, being a division of logitech, prices should reasonably drop because logitech already have a big distribution circuit. It's either an error (I hope) or some sort of "yeah, this device is valued by stupid audiophiles, let's sell it 50% more".

I know prices are often calculated like that in this market. Manufactor make a device, give it to a handful of golden ears asking them: "hey, how much can I sell this?". I know for sure that in audiophile market devices are sell for the value buyers would buy it, not for the production value.

msherman
2007-08-04, 06:56
erland wrote:
>
> The reason for the SqueezeBox increase is probably because Logitech
> feels like they have higher distribution costs to ship the product from
> US to Europe than what for example Komplett.se have. This feels a bit
> strange to me, but if you look at some other Logitech products, you can
> see similar effects (although the differences is a bit smaller):

Some manufacturers have deals (either explicit or implied) with their
distributors in certain markets that the manufacturer will effectively
price themselves out of the direct-retail market, allowing the
distributor effective control of all retail sales. That may be what's
going on here; it would certainly explain the sudden lock-down on
out-of-country orders.

- Marc

amcluesent
2007-08-04, 08:21
Logitech's Accountant reviews the outcome of the new pricing policy, "The boys done good!"

jaysung
2007-08-04, 09:38
Hi,
Thank you Bpa for pointing out that national value taxes are aplied to transnational purchases. I wasn't aware of that. We in Germany now have 19% of vat. Then there are only two ways
1. mail forwarding either by a friend in the US or by companies mentioned above. Which I think is being fuzzy and unreliable or buying directly from a local dealer. Which after all I will do despite my repulsion (a bit strong in the sence of the term) against Logitech's politics. In the end for a blind person as explained it is THE WAY to actually get an accessible music collection in good quality.
Or I might stick to the SB3 I have and spent the money on a decent DAC. Not sure actually.
Cheers,
Jeronimo

y360
2007-08-04, 16:49
if your motivation is improved audio, you may want to read this comparison before deciding on the transporter
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35068

st2lemans
2007-08-06, 00:05
> You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?

No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).

Tom

Michel Fombellida
2007-08-06, 00:35
HI !
I am not aware however which specific taxes would apply. At least those would have to be taxes slimdevices was not aware of! Cause as far as the ordering form told me it was not much more than 2k bugs.
But would be curious for any enlightenment on that.


If you purchase a product outside the EU and ship it to your country, the custom in your country will "intercept it" and will charge you the local VAT plus some addtional custom fees (may be 2 or 3%, it depends on the country).

If you purchase a product in any EU country, in that case the custom is not involved, you pay directly the VAT in the country where your purchased.

Michel

mattybain
2007-08-06, 03:45
But the point is that you used to be able to order it direct from the SD website and it would cost you around $2,500 including postage and VAT (there is no duty to pay in the UK) which is around £1,250.

The UK suppliers used to charge £1,300 which seems reasonable based on these numbers.

Logitech have now stopped direct ordering from the US and you are forced to order via their website. Despite the £ getting even stronger against the $ the new price is £1,700, a £400 or 30% increase.

My understanding is that all the UK retailers will also be increasing their prices to a similar level.

As other people have pointed out there are several other Logitech devices which have an even more bizarre European mark up with one product having a 150% mark-up.

Well sorry, but I for one will not buy from a company that treats their customers like this. It is a shame as I was looking at purchasing a new Transporter and SB3’s and will certainly no longer be recommending them to my friends.

Also the Amazon price increase remains, it starts looking less of a glitch and something a little more permanent.

Everyone at Logitech seem very quiet on this subject, there has been no explanation as to why they feel justified in increasing these prices.

Interestingly Sonos have a much more reasonable mark-up and the AppleTV even seems to have no mark-up at all.

mattybain
2007-08-06, 03:46
> You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?

No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).

Tom

But last time I looked it was still part of Europe though.

Siduhe
2007-08-06, 03:51
Also the Amazon price increase remains, it starts looking less of a glitch and something a little more permanent.


In my experience, where Amazon misprice something the error is rectified immediately or (more usually) the product is withdrawn from sale until the correct price can be allocated and rolled through the system. So, I also find it a bit strange that the £245 price remains active on the site if, as suggested, this is an incorrect price and Amazon are aware of that.

st2lemans
2007-08-06, 05:04
> Tom;219217 Wrote:
>> > You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?
>>
>> No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).
>>
>> Tom
>
> But last time I looked it was still part of Europe though.

In the sense that Canada and Mexico are American, yes.

Tom

adamslim
2007-08-06, 05:30
> Tom;219217 Wrote:
>> > You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?
>>
>> No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).
>>
>> Tom
>
> But last time I looked it was still part of Europe though.

In the sense that Canada and Mexico are American, yes.

Tom

That'll be the geographical sense, rather than the political one, indeed.

It's hard to consider this anything but a real rogering of us Europeans. The £1,700 price simply cannot be justified - it's the US price, plus duty and VAT, plus a 47% "bend over forwards and take it like a European" shafting. I'm glad I got a SB+ not a Transporter!

Adam

st2lemans
2007-08-06, 06:19
> It's hard to consider this anything but a real rogering of us
> Europeans. The £1,700 price simply cannot be justified - it's the US
> price, plus duty and VAT, plus a 47% "bend over forwards and take it
> like a European" shafting. I'm glad I got a SB+ not a Transporter!

Yes, the SB+ is CHF 450, which compares favorably to the US price,
300*1.2*1.076+10=CHF 400, only 10% markup or so (at current exchange rate).

But the Transporter is CHF 3500, which is a markup of CHF 900 (35%).
Something is strange here!

Tom

pfarrell
2007-08-06, 06:25
Tom wrote:
> Yes, the SB+ is CHF 450, which compares favorably to the US price,
> 300*1.2*1.076+10=CHF 400, only 10% markup or so (at current exchange rate).
>
> But the Transporter is CHF 3500, which is a markup of CHF 900 (35%).
> Something is strange here!

This is a really long thread that beats against simple truth.
The Transporter is not branded LogiTech, it is not a consumer product,
it is an audiophile product.

Pricing for audiophile products have zero grounding in reality,
economics, etc.

If the unit sells at some price that looks insane to you, don't buy it.
If it doesn't sell, the price will come down.

If the markup is high enough, fly to the US, buy one, plug it in, and
pack it in your luggage home as "used electronics"


--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

tommyz
2007-08-06, 06:42
Pricing for audiophile products have zero grounding in reality,
economics, etc.


:-)

You made my day !!


ciao, TommyZ

vrobin
2007-08-06, 07:35
The silence of slimdevices employees on the question is astonishing... is this holiday time or does that mean something?

Michaelwagner
2007-08-06, 07:51
The silence of slimdevices employees on the question is astonishing... is this holiday time or does that mean something?

Both.

This is a traditional North American vacation time.

But in addition, one of the things that was most certainly lost when Logitech acquired Slim was the squat management hierarchy. In Slim's time, the guy who set the prices also read these forae.

You can be relatively certain that (a) the people who set Logitech prices don't read these forae, and (b) the people who do read and post here are not able to (may in fact be constrained not to) comment on Logitech pricing decisions.

Michaelwagner
2007-08-06, 07:53
By the way, what is OTT supposed to stand for?

jaysung
2007-08-06, 07:58
Hi,
This is the thread opener speaking. ;) After considering value taxes the price difference at a German dealer in comparision with the former price on the SD web site is about $130 or so. I decided after all to get a transporter from a German dealer and will be looking forward to actually hearing it.
I know of the listening test comparing SB3 and Transporter. And yep it is a point made here. Well, the test didn't use symmetric (xlr) interconnects. People state that XLR sound improvement may be a case of "louder sounds better" due to the voltage differences and supposedly the fact that there is the difference between two signals not just between one signal and the noise floor that is actually amplified. Well, I will report on this. Using a Marantz PM-11 and Dali Helicon 400 speakers. And as far as I know my transporter will be labeled "slimdevices"? That's GREAT and VERY IMPORTANT! ;)
I speculate that Logitech may drop the squeezebox in favour of their own streaming solution and stick to SD-labeling for the transporter? But will the continue to manufacture them? Well, no one knows!
Cheers,
Jeronimo
PS.: If it turns out to not improve any thing I'll just return the unit and stick to my SB3 and perhaps and good DAC. But I just have to hear it myself. ;)

pfarrell
2007-08-06, 08:00
Michaelwagner wrote:
> By the way, what is OTT supposed to stand for?

Out To Tree?
Over The Top?
Only Too Tired?
One Terrific Transporter?

From the discussion, it seems to mean some sort of lost in space price
wise.

vrobin
2007-08-06, 08:21
By the way, what is OTT supposed to stand for?

Very good question! I thought it was a mistyping for ODD but not very convinced by this explanation.

Siduhe
2007-08-06, 08:26
Very good question! I thought it was a mistyping for ODD but not very convinced by this explanation.

Over The Top...IMHO ;-)

Michaelwagner
2007-08-06, 08:28
I first read it as OOT (out of touch), then realized that's not what it said. OTW would be off the wall. But I have no idea what OTT means.

Alasdair Wilkie
2007-08-06, 08:36
my view is that it is Over The Top as in the prices we Europeans are
being charged

Michaelwagner
2007-08-06, 08:47
Oh. I guess we in the Americas don't say over the top much, so that didn't occur to me.

jaysung
2007-08-06, 09:01
Hi,
Yeah, I consider myself pationed "old European" (as Rumsfeld would have said)! I meant "over the top"

James_B
2007-08-06, 11:18
I speculate that Logitech may drop the squeezebox in favour of their own streaming solution and stick to SD-labeling for the transporter? But will the continue to manufacture them? Well, no one knows!

Despite being an original moaner I think this thread is going a little OTT itself. Prices are up. No one likes it. An official comment would be good whilst perhaps unlikely. But I dont think this is a sign of radical change to product lines, just business integration.

Now chop-chop and bring out that overpriced remote we are all waiting to complain about ;)

marlowe
2007-08-06, 12:21
I don’t know about the rest of Europe, but in Denmark prices (on several sites) are the same – from 14.500 to 15.000 DKK, roughly around £ 1.350. Unless you buy directly from Logitech – they charge 20.000 DKK – just over £ 1.800! In Sweden prices seem a little higher, but not near £ 1.700 mentioned in this thread. I don’t think prices are up in general.

erland
2007-08-06, 13:35
I don’t know about the rest of Europe, but in Denmark prices (on several sites) are the same – from 14.500 to 15.000 DKK, roughly around £ 1.350. Unless you buy directly from Logitech – they charge 20.000 DKK – just over £ 1.800! In Sweden prices seem a little higher, but not near £ 1.700 mentioned in this thread. I don’t think prices are up in general.

As I understand it the changed distribution channels, through Logitech instead of directly from SlimDevices, changed pretty recently. Earlier one could order directly from SlimDevices to Sweden, this is no longer possible, we now have to order from the Swedish Logitech site.

The new price on Logitech site for Sweden is:
25000 SEK (£1842)

The online stores probably hasn't adjusted their price yet. If this is just some way for Logitech to get us to buy the Transporter from third party online stores instead of their own online site, the prince might not change at all. But if there is some other reason for this raise, the online stores are probably going to raise their prices pretty soon.

If we are lucky we might get some response from Logitech in this thread, if not, we will just have to wait and see if the third party online stores also raise their prices.

mattybain
2007-08-07, 00:19
Hi Guys,

Just to confirm that the SRP in the UK will be going up to £1699 inc VAT.

I am sure that there will be a couple of units at the old price knocking around in the UK if you are quick.

I think it is pretty clear in the UK at least that 3rd party prices are going up as well.

autopilot
2007-08-07, 04:34
I have been saving up for a Transporter for about a year. Talk about being kicked in the teeth.

Not a snow flakes chance in hell am i going to buy one now.

I believe Sono's have some new products in the pipeline, just have to see what they come up with.

Thanks Logitech and Slimdevices!



BTW, just to clear things up for the under-educated here (joking :)) - the EU is a collection of European countries, not Europe itself. There are a few European counties not in the Union. But essentially, the EU can be considered a state in it's own right, legally and economically - thats the whole reason it was formed, to give the small European countries more weight on the world stage.

.And yes, "OTT" is quite a common saying here in the UK :)

Michaelwagner
2007-08-07, 05:00
"OTT" is quite a common saying here in the UK :)

We here in Canada have many phrases that are very british in origin. But that's not one of them. I've heard the expression, but only rarely, so it didn't occur to me.

peter
2007-08-07, 05:20
Tom wrote:
>> You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?
>>
>
> No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).
>

EU != European

Americans... :(

P.

st2lemans
2007-08-07, 05:31
> EU != European
>
> Americans... :(

Actually, I'm Swiss.

Tom

peter
2007-08-07, 05:47
Tom wrote:
>> EU != European
>>
>> Americans... :(
>>
>
> Actually, I'm Swiss.
>


Then ypu're a European.

P.

Michaelwagner
2007-08-07, 06:23
He's just not an EU-ian :D

lyteroptes
2007-08-08, 03:44
No, the winner is the Wireless DJ Music System.

179 pounds.

or on the US site, $99.

Methinks something broke on their exchange rate conversion, that is just plain silly.




..but if you got to one of the US merchant sites it's listed at a higher price - $199 on the only one I have access to from the office so perhaps it's an incorrect price on the Logitech US
site? At $199 it's still a long way from £179 but I noticed PC World had them on the shelves at £129.

peter
2007-08-08, 05:51
Tom wrote:
>> Tom;219217 Wrote:
>>
>>>> You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?
>>>>
>>> No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>> But last time I looked it was still part of Europe though.
>>
>
> In the sense that Canada and Mexico are American, yes.
>

The USA is a country, the EU is not a country and 'we' don't call the EU
'Europe' either...

Regards,
Peter

peter
2007-08-08, 05:57
erland wrote:
> marlowe;219347 Wrote:
>
>> I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in Denmark prices (on several
>> sites) are the same -- from 14.500 to 15.000 DKK, roughly around £ 1.350.
>> Unless you buy directly from Logitech -- they charge 20.000 DKK -- just
>> over £ 1.800! In Sweden prices seem a little higher, but not near £
>> 1.700 mentioned in this thread. I don't think prices are up in general.
>>
>
> As I understand it the changed distribution channels, through Logitech
> instead of directly from SlimDevices, changed pretty recently. Earlier
> one could order directly from SlimDevices to Sweden, this is no longer
> possible, we now have to order from the Swedish Logitech site.
>


The Dutch online shop I just checked still offers them for 1990 EUR.
BTW, they also offer the 'old' SlimDevices branded SB3's with a 30 EUR
markup. Isn't it usual for electronics to be more expensive when you buy
them directly from the manufaturer? So that online and brick & mortar
store can sell them at a nice discount? Aren't the SD products just
being brought in line with this policy?

Peter

Michaelwagner
2007-08-08, 06:03
Isn't it usual for electronics to be more expensive when you buy them directly from the manufaturer?
Peter

One of the nice things about Slim was that they didn't play that game. No longer, I guess.

whitman
2007-08-08, 07:47
In Slim's time, the guy who set the prices also read these forae.

'Forae'? This must be some quaint Canadian expression we Britishers are not aware of.

haunyack
2007-08-08, 07:58
'Forae'? This must be some quaint Canadian expression we Britishers are not aware of.


Sounds like a flowery expression the Aussie's might use to describe the bush.

Perhaps a hybrid flora & fauna?

.

Michaelwagner
2007-08-08, 08:04
Forum is a latin word. I was taught in school to use the latin plurals. Ergo the plural of forum is not forums but fora (or in some cases, I don't remember my Latin grammar, forae).

Just like the plural of datum is data, the plural of referendum is referenda.

st2lemans
2007-08-08, 08:15
> whitman;219694 Wrote:
>> 'Forae'? This must be some quaint Canadian expression we Britishers are
>> not aware of.
>
>
> Sounds like a flowery expression the Aussie's might use to describe the
> bush.
>
> Perhaps a hybrid flora & fauna?

No, it's the plural form of 'forum'

Tom

haunyack
2007-08-08, 08:32
ab adeo abdera facetia?

.

oreillymj
2007-08-08, 09:42
BTW OTT would not be a phrase in common use in the US as it first came about during WW1. Refers to trench warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_over_the_top

Paul Webster
2007-08-08, 10:46
and well enough known in UK for a short run TV series to use the acronym as its name back in 1981
http://www.theoddballs.net/ott.php

TCM
2007-08-08, 10:57
Ok, that's enough! :-D

CardinalFang
2007-08-08, 13:57
Ok, that's enough! :-D

Or as Gus Hedges would say "I sense we may be straying down Tangent Boulevard here."

(c.f. Drop the dead donkey)

slimkid
2007-08-08, 14:45
Forum is a latin word. I was taught in school to use the latin plurals. Ergo the plural of forum is not forums but fora (or in some cases, I don't remember my Latin grammar, forae).

Just like the plural of datum is data, the plural of referendum is referenda.

I don't mean to be anal (ok, I do), but say you are correct. So how would you properly say the following: "I can't live for a day without this 'forum'", and then " I can't live for a day without visiting this 'forum'" ?

And more importantly, do you say it that way in everyday speach, or how many poeple you hear doing it?

Michaelwagner
2007-08-08, 15:03
So how would you properly say the following: "I can't live for a day without this 'forum'", and then " I can't live for a day without visiting this 'forum'" ?

Both are already correct. Both are singular, and forum is the correct singular form. Or else I'm missing your point somehow.


And more importantly, do you say it that way in everyday speach[sic], or how many poeple[sic] you hear doing it?

If you're asking me how I say the plural of forum, I actually say "fora", since I don't know how to pronounce "forae". I only took latin for 1 year and it was 35 years ago. I've forgotten a thing or two.

But look at the top of this page. The header is

Slim Devices : Community : Forums > User Forums > General Discussion > Logitech being absolutely OTT ?!

"Forums" is wrong. Sorry. No one says datums, as in "I got the newest datums on sales of new products today". We say "I got the newest data". So why do we say forums? Referendums?

How many other people do I hear saying "fora"? Admittedly, not many, more's the pity. Worse, I hear people who are supposed to be our examples, TV announcers, political commentators, saying "referendums" all the time around election time. Yeesh!

Michaelwagner
2007-08-08, 15:09
On further research, I was likely wrong to use forae as the plural. It would be fora. Latin class was a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_plural#Irregular_plurals_from_Latin_and_Gr eek

But as someone pointed out, we seem to have strayed far from OTT, and even further from Logitech pricing, which was the original issue.

Ian_F
2007-08-08, 15:59
Worse, I hear people who are supposed to be our examples, TV announcers, political commentators, saying "referendums" all the time around election time. Yeesh!

That's to stop the listening/viewing public saying "Woh dee say? Referenda? Wossat?"

All this rambling and off-topic chat is just a cheap trick to keep this thread alive long enough for the logitech folk to get back from their vacations (vacatia?) and provide us with a possible explanation for their strange pricing structure......

Ben Sandee
2007-08-08, 19:07
On 8/8/07, Michaelwagner <
Michaelwagner.2v0p2b1186610701 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> "Forums" is wrong. Sorry. No one says datums, as in "I got the newest
> datums on sales of new products today". We say "I got the newest data".
> So why do we say forums? Referendums?


'Forums' and 'referendums' are both in every dictionary I could be bothered
to check as plural of 'forum' and 'referendum', along with 'fora' and
'referenda'. You are using false logic if you expect the rules of language
to be applied consistently. This isn't Esperanto... or latin.

Ben

slimkid
2007-08-08, 23:12
...Both are already correct. Both are singular, and forum is the correct singular form. Or else I'm missing your point somehow...


This is off topic, so I aplogize to everybody, but since asked - I'll be brief. There's much more to Latin grammar than singular/plural. Both my examples are not supposed to be right according to your logic. First sentence uses genitive singular (which doesn't even exist in English), so 'forum' would become 'fore'. The second one would require use of acusative singular, so 'forus' would be the right word to use. Now, since nobody would ever use this in English language, I really don't see how use of 'fora', which is nominative plural all the sudden makes sense. And, just in case some doctor or lawyer comes after me for those suffixes, my Latin is 25 years old :).

S.P.Q.R.

Khuli
2007-08-09, 01:04
And, just in case some doctor or lawyer comes after me for those suffixes, my Latin is 25 years old :).

Yes, Latin has probably changed a fair bit in that time...

adamslim
2007-08-09, 01:22
First sentence uses genitive singular (which doesn't even exist in English), so 'forum' would become 'fore'. The second one would require use of acusative singular, so 'forus' would be the right word to use. Now, since nobody would ever use this in English language, I really don't see how use of 'fora', which is nominative plural all the sudden makes sense.

Um, my latin is 20 years out of date too, but I can't resist :)

Accusative singular is deffo forum, certain there
I am also certain that genitive singular is not fore, but not sure whether it's fori (preferred guess) or foro (I think that's the dative)

forum, forum, fori, foro, foro
fora, fora, forarum, foris, foris

That's my call

And also, the first will actually be accusative and the second dative (rather than genitive and accusative respectively). Therefore, it'll be forum and foro.

But most importantly, of course, we rarely actually use the correct plural in english - in most cases, just adding an s is fine. Most people don't even know that "data" is (are?!?) plural. So while fora is correct in latin, in english you can use forums - after all, it's forums.slimdevices.com!

(So after all that, we agree!)

Adam

oktup
2007-08-09, 02:31
Here's an interesting discussion on the forums/fora subject:


http://www.painintheenglish.com/post.php?id=627 (http://www.painintheenglish.com/post.php?id=627)

PS - loved the 'thread direction' pic, TCM ;)

TCM
2007-08-09, 02:51
Here's an interesting discussion on the forums/fora subject:


http://www.painintheenglish.com/post.php?id=627 (http://www.painintheenglish.com/post.php?id=627)

PS - loved the 'thread direction' pic, TCM ;)

But still you ignored the meening of it... ;-D

seanadams
2007-08-09, 07:45
Accusative singular is deffo forum, certain there
I am also certain that genitive singular is not fore, but not sure whether it's fori (preferred guess) or foro (I think that's the dative)

forum is second declension, goes like "bellum". In the following sentence:


In Slim's time, the guy who set the prices also read these forae.

forums is the object of "read" so it would indeed be plural accusative: "fora". But slimkid brings up an interesting one:


" I can't live for a day without visiting this 'forum'"

Here you would use the singular locative case, because visiting the forum is like "going to" the forum. That would be "fori" (pronounced "for-ee").

John Cleese explains: http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=9243

All the endings for forum are here under "Neuter nouns ending in -um":

http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~econrad/lang/ln2.html

adamslim
2007-08-09, 13:05
Reckon someone was thankful for the thread diversion? :)

Fifer
2007-08-09, 13:35
Anyone seen the thread on European Transporter pricing?

nicketynick
2007-08-09, 13:48
You guys are all insane! I can't believe (well, I can.....) that the bunch of gear-heads that hang around here, and the chief of them all (Sean), also seem to be a bunch of dead linguists on the side. (if that term makes any sense).
Anyway, Pat had the right answer - the price is what the market will bear, especially for a niche item like the Transporter. Logitech just seems to be applying a rather crude form of market survey. They may also be trying to push (encourage) the distributor model (vs direct) as well, although I'm not sure how much sense that makes for the Transporter......
Or maybe........ there is an 'in-between' model coming soon, and they just need to open up a price-point for it.......Hmmmmmm

TCM
2007-08-09, 13:57
Or maybe........ there is an 'in-between' model coming soon, and they just need to open up a price-point for it.......Hmmmmmm

Maybe SB4? Maybe...

JJZolx
2007-08-09, 19:43
Why would anyone expect a response from the guys in California regarding pricing in Europe? I would expect that it's out of their hands. And you certainly wouldn't anyone expect anyone from the parent company in Europe to be participating in these forums.

pfarrell
2007-08-09, 19:56
JJZolx wrote:
> Why would anyone expect a response from the guys in California regarding
> pricing in Europe? I would expect that it's out of their hands.

The important part of this thread is the proper declension of the words.

BTW, data are plural.

mherger
2007-08-09, 22:50
> you certainly wouldn't anyone expect anyone from the parent company in
> Europe to be participating in these forums.

I'm sorry, at least Felix, Richard and I are :-). But as probably has been
mentioned earlier in this thread: errare humanum est.

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD
http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR

vrobin
2007-08-10, 01:24
Alea jacta est

bpa
2007-08-10, 01:43
Who said Latin was dead !

Nuntii Latini - News in Latin - is a weekly review of world news in Classical Latin available on the Internet, on RealAudio, at http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii produced by YLE, the Finnish Broadcasting Company

JJZolx
2007-08-10, 02:01
The important part of this thread is the proper declension

Oh yes, that's the part where the fellow was talking about bending over forwards and taking it, eh? Much declension indeed.

nicketynick
2007-08-10, 09:32
Oh yes, that's the part where the fellow was talking about bending over forwards and taking it, eh? Much declension indeed.

Oh, bravo!

Robin Bowes
2007-08-10, 13:25
Tom wrote:
>> Tom;219217 Wrote:
>>>> You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?
>>> No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).
>>>
>>> Tom
>> But last time I looked it was still part of Europe though.
>
> In the sense that Canada and Mexico are American, yes.

They are. Both are on the continent of North America [1]

Just as Switzerland is on the continent of Europe [2]

R.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
[2] p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

adamslim
2007-08-10, 13:41
Tom wrote:
>> Tom;219217 Wrote:
>>>> You do know that Logitech is a European company, right?
>>> No, they are a Swiss company (Switzerland is not a member of the EU).
>>>
>>> Tom
>> But last time I looked it was still part of Europe though.
>
> In the sense that Canada and Mexico are American, yes.

They are. Both are on the continent of North America [1]

Just as Switzerland is on the continent of Europe [2]

R.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
[2] p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Sheesh, the way people are reviving old topics on this thread we may get back to the point, heaven forbid!

Robin Bowes
2007-08-10, 13:58
adamslim wrote:
> Robin Bowes;220157 Wrote:
>> They are. Both are on the continent of North America [1]
>>
>> Just as Switzerland is on the continent of Europe [2]
>>
>> R.
>>
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
>> [2] p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe
>
> Sheesh, the way people are reviving old topics on this thread we may
> get back to the point, heaven forbid!

Hey, I've been on holiday for a few days - just catching up with my
pedantry. :)

R.

Michaelwagner
2007-09-07, 17:44
I can't believe (well, I can.....) that the bunch of gear-heads that hang around here, and the chief of them all (Sean), also seem to be a bunch of dead linguists on the side.
In my day (gosh, that makes me sound old), English was part of the curriculum, even for gearheads. It was called a rounded education, back in the day.

And proper plurals in English (at least, as it was taught in Canada) involved using the foreign plural forms for foreign words, even though the word was being used in English.

So Latin plurals became English plurals for those words descended from Latin. In that sense, Latin isn't dead, because it lives onward (at least parts of it do) in English.

P.S. I'm not a dead linguist. It's not clear I'm a linguist at all (although I speak 3 languages, generally the word linguist is used for people who have specialized in the study of language - I don't really study it, I just speak a few), but I'm certainly not dead. I absolutely abhor the need people have these days to remove all the phrasing that would disambiguate phrases. The phrase "dead linguist" would mean a linguist who is dead. Nick, I assume you meant to write "a student of dead languages". 5 words instead of 2, but then the meaning is clear.