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Michael Bowyer
2004-01-08, 07:40
So, SlimDevices have some new competition....

http://www.rokulabs.com/products/soundbridge/index.php

Nice looking box!

Jonathan Greene
2004-01-08, 07:47
I've been waiting to see more on this one... check out the web ui -
pretty damn close!


On Jan 8, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Michael Bowyer wrote:

> So, SlimDevices have some new competition....
>
> http://www.rokulabs.com/products/soundbridge/index.php
>
> Nice looking box!

Jonathan Greene
2004-01-08, 07:48
Of course I send that last one then read that it is running the slim
server open source os. I guess we have a choice in hardware now


On Jan 8, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Michael Bowyer wrote:

> So, SlimDevices have some new competition....
>
> http://www.rokulabs.com/products/soundbridge/index.php
>
> Nice looking box!
>

Roy M. Silvernail
2004-01-08, 08:43
On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:40:31PM +0100, Michael Bowyer wrote:
> So, SlimDevices have some new competition....
>
> http://www.rokulabs.com/products/soundbridge/index.php
>
> Nice looking box!

Nice, indeed. But look what I found on the tech specs page:

Supported Protocols
SlimServer Open Source UDP-based streaming and control protocols

I *thought* that server screenshot looked kinda familiar... kinda
fishboney...
:)
--
Roy M. Silvernail is roy (AT) rant-central (DOT) com, and you're not
http://www.rant-central.com is the new scytale
Never Forget: It's Only 1's and 0's!
SpamAssassin->procmail->/dev/null->bliss

Ron Thigpen
2004-01-08, 10:43
Jonathan Greene wrote:

> Of course I send that last one then read that it is running the slim
> server open source os. I guess we have a choice in hardware now

Does anyone know if Roku staff have made any contributions to the server
effort? It would be nice to think that they were giving something back.

--rt

kdf
2004-01-08, 11:52
Quoting Michael Bowyer <mbowyer (AT) mac (DOT) com>:

> So, SlimDevices have some new competition....
>
> http://www.rokulabs.com/products/soundbridge/index.php
>
> Nice looking box!

and I notice the skin they are using is converted from an old version of Fishbone
-kdf

kdf
2004-01-08, 11:53
Quoting Jonathan Greene <atmasphere (AT) atmasphere (DOT) net>:

> I've been waiting to see more on this one... check out the web ui -
> pretty damn close!
>
That's because they use slimserver. it IS the same web ui.

kdf
2004-01-08, 11:58
Quoting "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy (AT) rant-central (DOT) com>:

> On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:40:31PM +0100, Michael Bowyer wrote:
> > So, SlimDevices have some new competition....
> >
> > http://www.rokulabs.com/products/soundbridge/index.php
> >
> > Nice looking box!
>
> Nice, indeed. But look what I found on the tech specs page:
>
> Supported Protocols
> SlimServer Open Source UDP-based streaming and control protocols
>
> I *thought* that server screenshot looked kinda familiar... kinda
> fishboney...
> :)
I can't wait for the support questions to come in ;) Using open source, yet they
don't seem to have a link to download that skin to see try their version.

-kdf

Dan Sully
2004-01-08, 12:00
* kdf <slim-mail (AT) deane-freeman (DOT) com> shaped the electrons to say...

> Quoting Jonathan Greene <atmasphere (AT) atmasphere (DOT) net>:
>
> > I've been waiting to see more on this one... check out the web ui -
> > pretty damn close!
> >
> That's because they use slimserver. it IS the same web ui.

Does this mean that SlimServer is a Standard(tm) now? ;)

I couldn't find on their site - have they released their modifications?

-D
--
The pig that flies south has the key!!

kdf
2004-01-08, 12:15
Quoting Dan Sully <daniel (AT) electricrain (DOT) com>:

> * kdf <slim-mail (AT) deane-freeman (DOT) com> shaped the electrons to say...
>
> > Quoting Jonathan Greene <atmasphere (AT) atmasphere (DOT) net>:
> >
> > > I've been waiting to see more on this one... check out the web ui -
> > > pretty damn close!
> > >
> > That's because they use slimserver. it IS the same web ui.
>
> Does this mean that SlimServer is a Standard(tm) now? ;)
>
> I couldn't find on their site - have they released their modifications?
>
> -D
From their website:
"Expandable: The SoundBridge players use the open-source SlimServer software.
This software is open to enhancement by end users and third-party developers, so
new features can be added and functionality enhanced over time."

there is a pic, but no links to any skins that I can find. Its for pre-order
now, so perhaps its not all ready for download either. I certianly hope it will
be made available.

-kdf

Richard Purdie
2004-01-08, 13:33
> "Expandable: The SoundBridge players use the open-source SlimServer
software.
> This software is open to enhancement by end users and third-party
developers, so
> new features can be added and functionality enhanced over time."
>
> there is a pic, but no links to any skins that I can find. Its for
pre-order
> now, so perhaps its not all ready for download either. I certianly hope
it will
> be made available.

Under the terms of the open source licence surely they have to make their
mods available?

Out of interest has any contact been made between them and Slim Devices?
Have they put anything into the server software development?

RP

Caleb Epstein
2004-01-08, 13:56
On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 08:33:01PM -0000, Richard Purdie wrote:

> Under the terms of the open source licence surely they have to make
> their mods available?

There is no one "open source license". There are a number of
popular ones, some of which (like the BSD license) allow
modification and commerical release without providing source
code.

That being said, the slimserver code is licensed under the
terms of the GNU GPL, which would indeed require ROKU Labs to
make their source code available to anyone who asks for it.

--
| | It's so beautifully arranged on the plate --
Caleb Epstein | bklyn . org | you know someone's fingers have been all
cae at | Brooklyn Dust | over it.
bklyn dot org | Bunny Mfg. | -- Julia Child on nouvelle
| | cuisine.

kdf
2004-01-08, 14:10
Quoting Caleb Epstein <cae (AT) bklyn (DOT) org>:

> On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 08:33:01PM -0000, Richard Purdie wrote:
>
> > Under the terms of the open source licence surely they have to make
> > their mods available?
>
> There is no one "open source license". There are a number of
> popular ones, some of which (like the BSD license) allow
> modification and commerical release without providing source
> code.
>
> That being said, the slimserver code is licensed under the
> terms of the GNU GPL, which would indeed require ROKU Labs to
> make their source code available to anyone who asks for it.
>
Given that they state it uses the UDP protocol, its probably not modified at
all. The GPL license header isn't included in any of the HTML files so the skin
could be a grey area where they could hold it for release only to those who
purchase the device.

Given that it does use the UDP protocol, it will have limited use when compared
to the Squeezebox. Playback of RAW audio requires the newer protocol and hardware.

-kdf

Ben Sandee
2004-01-08, 14:44
Caleb Epstein wrote:

>On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 08:33:01PM -0000, Richard Purdie wrote:
>
>
>
>>Under the terms of the open source licence surely they have to make
>>their mods available?
>>
>>
>
> There is no one "open source license". There are a number of
> popular ones, some of which (like the BSD license) allow
> modification and commerical release without providing source
> code.
>
> That being said, the slimserver code is licensed under the
> terms of the GNU GPL, which would indeed require ROKU Labs to
> make their source code available to anyone who asks for it.
>
>
>
Caleb,

Not entirely accurate. They only legally have to give the code to those
who receive the binaries (i.e. their customers) -- not anyone who asks
for it.

Ben

Caleb Epstein
2004-01-08, 14:59
On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:44:41PM -0600, Ben Sandee wrote:

> Not entirely accurate. They only legally have to give the code to
> those who receive the binaries (i.e. their customers) -- not anyone
> who asks for it.

I don't think thats correct. From the GPL Revision 2,
see Paragaph 3b (emphasis mine):

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
customarily used for software interchange; or,


--
Caleb Epstein | bklyn . org | Q: What is printed on the bottom of beer
cae at | Brooklyn Dust | bottles in Minnesota? A: Open other end.
bklyn dot org | Bunny Mfg. |

Ben Sandee
2004-01-08, 15:29
Caleb Epstein wrote:

>On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:44:41PM -0600, Ben Sandee wrote:
>
>
>
>>Not entirely accurate. They only legally have to give the code to
>>those who receive the binaries (i.e. their customers) -- not anyone
>>who asks for it.
>>
>>
>
> I don't think thats correct. From the GPL Revision 2,
> see Paragaph 3b (emphasis mine):
>
>3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
>under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
>Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
>
> a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
> source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
> 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
>
> b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
> years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
> machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
> distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
> customarily used for software interchange; or,
>
>
Well, IANAL, but I think it's clearly stated at the end of paragraph 3
that they only need to do either (a) *or* (b) so they can simply
distribute the source with the binaries and their obligations are
fulfilled. Given that the vast majority of the source code is
interpreted Perl, I imagine they will simply let anyone download the
source because it sounds like they are leveraging slimserver on purpose
-- why fork it and lose the goodwill of the community.

It's not like they have deliberately hidden the fact that they use
slimserver -- I can hardly blame them for linking directly to one of
their competitor's websites (slimdevices) but they do mention slimserver
prominently on the product info page and anyone who is interested would
eventually make their way over to slimdevices.com which will end up
being good for everyone in the long run.

Ben

kdf
2004-01-08, 15:46
Quoting Ben Sandee <tbsandee (AT) pobox (DOT) com>:


> It's not like they have deliberately hidden the fact that they use
> slimserver -- I can hardly blame them for linking directly to one of
> their competitor's websites (slimdevices) but they do mention slimserver
> prominently on the product info page and anyone who is interested would
> eventually make their way over to slimdevices.com which will end up
> being good for everyone in the long run.

I'm just miffed that they chose to use the version of the Fishbone skin that
still had that stupid Timer checkbox in there. that's sure to generate
complaints :( The skin was still rather messy back then, and I'm betting if they
have the checkbox, all they've done is change the colours and graphics. I wonder
if they still have the deadly [zap] link in there. The old version used to
actually kill the server.

-kdf

Roy M. Silvernail
2004-01-08, 16:37
On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 16:59, Caleb Epstein wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:44:41PM -0600, Ben Sandee wrote:
>
> > Not entirely accurate. They only legally have to give the code to
> > those who receive the binaries (i.e. their customers) -- not anyone
> > who asks for it.
>
> I don't think thats correct. From the GPL Revision 2,
> see Paragaph 3b (emphasis mine):
>
> 3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
> under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
> Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
>
> a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
> source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
> 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
>
> b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
> years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
> machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
> distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
> customarily used for software interchange; or,

There was a lengthy flame war on /. about this recently. The GNU
website's FAQ says this:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCWhatDoesWrittenOfferValid

"Valid for any third party" means that anyone who has the offer is
entitled to take you up on it.

If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source
code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the
source code later. When users non-commercially redistribute the binaries
they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written
offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from
you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written
offer.

The reason we require the offer to be valid for any third party is so
that people who receive the binaries indirectly in that way can order
the source code from you.
</snip>

I think that's pretty clear. Binary recipients are entitled to source
code, even if they got the binaries through an intermediary. Note that
I'm not against distributing source far and wide. I'm just noting that
GNU says it's not required.

Roy M. Silvernail
2004-01-08, 16:40
On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 17:46, kdf wrote:

> I'm just miffed that they chose to use the version of the Fishbone skin that
> still had that stupid Timer checkbox in there. that's sure to generate
> complaints :( The skin was still rather messy back then, and I'm betting if they
> have the checkbox, all they've done is change the colours and graphics. I wonder
> if they still have the deadly [zap] link in there. The old version used to
> actually kill the server.

Maybe they think that's a feature?
--
Roy M. Silvernail is roy (AT) rant-central (DOT) com, and you're not
Never Forget: It's Only 1's and 0's!
SpamAssassin->procmail->/dev/null->bliss
http://www.rant-central.com

kdf
2004-01-08, 17:05
Quoting "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy (AT) rant-central (DOT) com>:

> On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 17:46, kdf wrote:
>
> > I'm just miffed that they chose to use the version of the Fishbone skin
> that
> > still had that stupid Timer checkbox in there. that's sure to generate
> > complaints :( The skin was still rather messy back then, and I'm betting if
> they
> > have the checkbox, all they've done is change the colours and graphics. I
> wonder
> > if they still have the deadly [zap] link in there. The old version used to
> > actually kill the server.
>
> Maybe they think that's a feature?

Ironicly, it has been for me. If I'm doing some testing when I'm not at home, I
have no way to restart the server. However I can access a web page with that zap
link to kill the server on demand. I have a cron job that restarts the server
on the hour when it finds that it is not running :)

-kdf

Jonathan Greene
2004-01-08, 17:15
quick question...

Is there a way to change the default web load to be artist instead of
genre or any other category for that matter?

kdf
2004-01-08, 17:30
Quoting Jonathan Greene <atmasphere (AT) atmasphere (DOT) net>:

> quick question...
>
> Is there a way to change the default web load to be artist instead of
> genre or any other category for that matter?

The Fishbone skin uses a cookie to store the last selected browser mode.
I dont know of any way in the default skin without editing index.html frameset
to the browse page of your choice.

-kdf

jacobdp
2004-01-08, 18:25
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:33:01 -0000, you wrote:
>Out of interest has any contact been made between them and Slim Devices?
>Have they put anything into the server software development?

Well, their offices are only about 10 minutes away from each
other - see http://tinyurl.com/2cjrk (link to MapQuest)

Considering that Roku's other product is a "hackable"
Linux-based HDTV media player, I'd imagine they're pretty Open
Source-friendly.

- Jacob
--
"Terminak #3 has bad keyboard. Pkease fix."

Robin Cooksey
2004-01-18, 08:12
Hi,

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, kdf wrote:

> The Fishbone skin uses a cookie to store the last selected browser mode.
> I dont know of any way in the default skin without editing index.html frameset
> to the browse page of your choice.


I notice that the Fishbone skin sets the lifetime of this cookie to
only one hour. I (almost) always want to browse by artist, so this means
that I always have to choose that from the drop-down every time I go to
the web interface.

Is there a reason that the cookie doesn't have a longer lifetime?

Cheers,
Robin

kdf
2004-01-18, 12:36
Quoting Robin Cooksey <rbc (AT) hundredacre (DOT) org.uk>:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, kdf wrote:
>
> > The Fishbone skin uses a cookie to store the last selected browser mode.
> > I dont know of any way in the default skin without editing index.html
> frameset
> > to the browse page of your choice.
>
>
> I notice that the Fishbone skin sets the lifetime of this cookie to
> only one hour. I (almost) always want to browse by artist, so this means
> that I always have to choose that from the drop-down every time I go to
> the web interface.
>
> Is there a reason that the cookie doesn't have a longer lifetime?

nope. it can be set for a very long time too. I'll fix that.
-kdf