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jamullian
2007-01-06, 11:51
Executive Summary:

Winamp (v5.32 basic)has no problem playing Shoutcast Internet radio streams on my system; Slimserver hardly ever manages a connection (although it does OK on Alien BBC, for example).

The full story:

I have been lurking and reading other people's threads on similar issues here for months; I'm the kind of guy who tries everything he can think of and more himself before asking others.

I have SlimServer running on Win XP2 (have tried it on 2 different machines) and an SB3. SlimServer has no problems streaming mp3s from my computer to the SB3, works great. However, when I try to use Slim to connect to even the most obvious of Shoutcast stations, such as SomaFM or Digitally Imported, at best it connects for a few seconds or maybe minute or two before the buffer exhausts and rebuffering never works. I have been downloading nightly updates of 6.5.1 for months in the hope that it might get solved, but it never does.

Here's some of what I've tried:

- Increasing the buffer size, all the way up to 30 seconds, in stages

- Increasing the timeout, up to 60 seconds

- Uninstalling SlimServer and reinstalling (but note that I see the same issue on two machines)

- Deleting the cache

- Disabling anti-virus scanning

There are a number of ways in which the issue can arise - most often the stream never starts (with an Error no items found in playlist showing on the SB3) or at best it plays for a few seconds or minutes, runs out of buffer and does not rebuffer.

My current settings are 20 secs on radio station buffer and 45 secs on radio station timeout.

The important thing to note here is that Winamp (plain vanilla default install) never has a problem, never drops or jitters.

I am very disappointed, I bought the SB3 in major part to listen to Internet radio. BTW, FWIW, Alien BBC works fine, but the Sirius plug-in gets as far as showing the track info but never plays the music.

The only "unusual" thing about my setup is that I'm on a satellite broadband connection, with typical d/l speeds of 2Mb (plenty of bandwidth) and 150-400kb up. Problem (insoluble, due to laws of physics and where I live) is the latency, which is between 800 and 1200ms. BUT I would have thought that the buffer and timeout would take care of this - and again, Winamp never has a problem.

I'm not trying to laud Winamp here - I'm trying to get SlimServer to work. But worst case scenario might there be a way to capture and send the Winamp audio to the SB3?

All suggestions will be read with interest. Any useful ones will be rewarded with praise and acknowledgment!

SlimServer Version: 6.5.1 - 11099 - Windows XP - EN - cp1252
Server IP address: 192.168.0.100
Perl Version: 5.8.8 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
MySQL Version: 5.0.22-community-nt

Dougal
2007-01-07, 03:06
Hi,
Your problems with mp3 radio streams may well be caused by your connection; even with DSL connections some ISP's use technology that is incompatible with the Squeezebox. When I first received my S/B twelve months ago I could happily play shoutcast streams all day long on 1meg DSL connection then in the spring my ISP did something to the line and goodbye mp3 streaming through S/B, although with Winamp etc I had no problems. I gave up on ISP's help line and changed provider.
Out of curiosity what happens if you uncheck mp3 in "file types" and restart slimserver.
If this doesn't work it may be possible to force transcoding to flac but that is beond me.
Doug.

jamullian
2007-01-07, 07:28
Dougal

Glad to see someone else has documented a similar issue.

And yes, I have tried unchecking mp3 in file types; all it achieved was the inability to play files stored locally, it did nothing to improve streaming.

I would not be in the least surprised if the complex system of proxies and accelerators that satellite providers use were "breaking" SlimServer (and for that matter the use of SqueezeNetwork directly from the SB3); however, with Winamp's continued ability to cope my wish is for SS to improve to meet the same standard of performance.

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 15:26
i would guess you've read my posts and threads on this subject.

here are my conclusions:

IF someone can stream a station via winamp with no problems, then their connection is GOOD ENOUGH TO DO SO! (sounds obvious, but sometimes around here it needs stressed).

if winamp, (or whatever), has proven that the connection is indeed good enough, then imo, SD must also make their products, (whether it be software or hardware) able to play the streams equally as well.

imo, the SB is simply NOT AS ROBUST as winamp for tuning in streaming stations.

i btw have a cable modem connection, which is what most of consumer america uses for broadband. (it was adelphia, now its comcast).

here's what i think happened, and this is based on my understanding of the facts, which could easily be wrong:

SS 6.3.1 and earlier used to feed the stream to SS first, THEN to the SB.

as of 6.5 and later, it now feeds the stream DIRECTLY to the SB.

this is the better way to do it from a "usability" standpoint, IF it is in fact true that the hardware is as robust a methodology for tuning in, (as it is in winamp), or as it was in SS/SB in ver 6.3.1 or earlier.

it is my belief however, that the hardware is in fact NOT AS ROBUST and therefore, IF your ISP is in ANY WAY flaky, the SB hardware will reveal the problems of your ISP, while winamp will not, (b/c winamp is more robust).

an interesting test you could do, (which i haven't yet, b/c as of recently, my streaming is working again. as i said in other threads, its a here again, gone again issue), would be to totally uninstall whatever SS you have, delete all dirs, etc... and install 6.3.1 and see if it "fixes" your problem.

if it does, (and if i'm correct that that ver is the last one that sent tuned in station to SS first b4 sending it on to the SB), then i think thats proof positive that the hardware is not robust enough.

one caveat to all this...

AndyG at one point had me tune in some "soma" stations and in the time i listened to them, though of equal kbps, my hardware did not stutter and stall, and stop. it could be i didn't listen long enough, or that they used something other than shoutcast to broadcast... but it was interesting that on those servers, my ISP and my SB seemed up to the task, while on my LION Radio servers, they were not.

please let me know what you discover and what you think of my conclusions so far. i'd like to really get proof that the problem is the SS/SB solution, not my ISP (flaky or not), my wireless, my neighbors, lee harvey oswald, or aliens.

thx, -mdw

jamullian
2007-01-08, 15:58
Yes, I have seen your posts MrSinatra.

And I have tried going back - I think as far as far as 6.3, but I have spent so much time messing with this that memory no longer serves, but at least to versions that appeared to work in the past and do not now.

Whether SD "must" make their products, (whether it be software or hardware), as able to play the stream as Winamp on the same access is debatable; but certainly I would like SS to be as robust as Winamp - which too is not perfect, but far more successful.

The developers - from whom I would love to hear on this - can tell us whether that's feasible or not.

For now I have dedicated an old laptop to playing Winamp out to an Extigy and controlled by VNC; the SQ is almost as good as the SB3, but the power consumption probably 10x. Crude but at least I get to hear the music I want. The silly thing is that when I want to listen to my recorded music collection I have to switch the optical cable to the SB3, that's where any last vestige of elegance breaks down.

Which is why I would like to see SS step up to the plate. Are you reading this, Jim Carlton?

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 16:20
so i take it when u "went back" it didn't fix it?

well, you might then want to try 6.2.x which i am POSITIVE did not have problems tuning in streams, and which i am also positive did not send the stream directly to the SB, (meaning thats what i've been told/read).

i know it is a huge pita to regress versions - firmware, (which explains why i haven't tried it yet). however, if and when the problem resurfaces for me, i will def try it.

i really don't see how debatable it is as far as it needing to be as robust as winamp (or any other solution). why? b/c thats the ENTIRE POINT of this product... to serve music to you, whether it be local or off of the internet. thats what they advertise it does, all without the need of a computer even!

there is a standard out there, WMP/Winamp/iTunes/Real, etc... have set it... they all work equally well with these streams; would SD seriously contend their products should not?

i have never gotten an answer, from AndyG, the support email, etc... as to WHY does winamp work np while SD does not? they simply won't address it.

i'd love to know if u do get one.

(perhaps the closest anyone has come is to say "winamp can buffer more." well, perhaps it does, but i set SD stuff to 30secs, and it takes forever to load, and then still can't [sometimes] handle it... winamp starts playing right away, always problem free, and i don't think it buffers more than 5 seconds, although i don't know that for sure.

it speaks to its robustness that i've never had to find that setting.

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 16:28
one other quick point...

the SB couldn't even handle a 32kbps stream, while winamp and even multiple computers on my network could all play the 128kbps stream (via winamp or wmp or whatever) simultaneously, np.

if SD can't handle a single 128, 96 or even 32kbps stream that other solutions do (even in multiple instances) with flying colors, then i think that says a lot.

andyg
2007-01-08, 16:43
I think we've already been over this... the streams you claim don't work, do in fact work fine for me and others. I have yet to find a stream that works in Winamp and does not work on an SB, so I really can't do any sort of debugging or anything.

jamullian
2007-01-08, 17:02
I think we've already been over this... the streams you claim don't work, do in fact work fine for me and others. I have yet to find a stream that works in Winamp and does not work on an SB, so I really can't do any sort of debugging or anything.

While you are lucky to be on a broadband connection that does not have these issues, clearly there are those in the world - let's just mention myself, dougal and mrsinatra for a start - who do have this problem, and probably many many others who are not posting but simply dismissing SS/SB as a poor product as a result.

I'd be glad to work with you and beta test some kind of setup that would allow you to log the failure, if this could lead to a successful development.

andyg
2007-01-08, 17:04
But if the broadband was the culprit, Winamp would not be able to keep the stream playing either.

jamullian
2007-01-08, 17:14
But if the broadband was the culprit, Winamp would not be able to keep the stream playing either.

Then, in the (paraphrased) words of Sherlock Holmes, the only possible cause is the one remaining culprit, however improbable.

I am not a software author. I am however a technical support specialist. It seems to me rather improbable that Winamp and SS use the exact same engine to decode the stream (please forgive any possible nebulousness in my language). One works. The other doesn't.

What inference can we draw here?

andyg
2007-01-08, 17:17
Could be other things such as a wireless SB vs. a wired computer. Anyway, until we can find a reproducible case where something works in Winamp and fails in SB for everyone regardless of their internet or network setup, we can't really make any progress on this issue.

andyg
2007-01-08, 17:18
BTW, please don't just say something 'doesn't work' on the SB. Please report what happens to the buffer level, and read/understand this FAQ item: http://faq.slimdevices.com/index.php?action=artikel&cat=4&id=236&artlang=en

jamullian
2007-01-08, 17:26
BTW, please don't just say something 'doesn't work' on the SB. Please report what happens to the buffer level, and read/understand this FAQ item: http://faq.slimdevices.com/index.php?action=artikel&cat=4&id=236&artlang=en

I have read the FAQ thoroughly and have described what happens to the buffer level at the beginning of this thread.


Anyway, until we can find a reproducible case where something works in Winamp and fails in SB for everyone regardless of their internet or network setup, we can't really make any progress on this issue.

Do all issues you have to resolve apply to all users? Just because we are in a minority, and you can not reproduce it in your lab, does not mean it does not happen - I can reproduce it at any moment. Do I need to send you screen shots to persuade you? I'd be glad to do so.

andyg
2007-01-08, 17:31
There are a number of ways in which the issue can arise - most often the stream never starts (with an Error no items found in playlist showing on the SB3) or at best it plays for a few seconds or minutes, runs out of buffer and does not rebuffer.


There are 2 completely different issues here. The error about no playlist items is related to a Shoutcast issue where their server gets overloaded and can't return you a playlist. We don't need to talk about this issue here. To avoid this problem you should find the real stream URL for the stream you're trying to play and not go through the Shoutcast plugin which gives you URLs that require the Shoutcast server to be working.

Let's focus on your other issue where the stream does play and then stops. When a stream runs out of data, it should rebuffer if you are using firmware 72 and the latest 6.5.1 build. Enable Show Buffer Fullness and watch what happens to the two numbers from when you start streaming to when it rebuffers, then see what they say after they rebuffer.

Please also post the stream URL that's giving you problems.

jamullian
2007-01-08, 17:54
There are 2 completely different issues here. The error about no playlist items is related to a Shoutcast issue where their server gets overloaded and can't return you a playlist. We don't need to talk about this issue here. To avoid this problem you should find the real stream URL for the stream you're trying to play and not go through the Shoutcast plugin which gives you URLs that require the Shoutcast server to be working.

OK, let's not talk about the fact that Winamp simply tries the next stream in the list and the next until it finds one it can connect to. Time elapsed till connect and playing can be as long as 60 seconds, but once it plays it never drops. I'm currently playing http://205.188.215.225:8006 but I started by tuning to http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=3201


Let's focus on your other issue where the stream does play and then stops. When a stream runs out of data, it should rebuffer if you are using firmware 72 and the latest 6.5.1 build. Enable Show Buffer Fullness and watch what happens to the two numbers from when you start streaming to when it rebuffers, then see what they say after they rebuffer.
Please also post the stream URL that's giving you problems.

The left hand figure varies from around 6 or 8 or even 9, and plays for a little while - maybe seconds, maybe minutes, then starts dropping off. When it reaches 0, the 10.0 to the right of the / starts dropping too, and the dropouts begin. Once both figures get close to or reach 0.0, play stops. Sometimes rebuffering starts for a while but typically stops at around 30-45% and then budges no more. I can't reproduce this on the same stream as above since I can never connect, but SomaFM Groove Salad typically behaves as I describe. Well, except for like now, I can't even start the stream, it just sits at "Now playing 1 of 12" and the buffer sits at 0.0/0.0. I found the URL by doing a search in the Shoutcast list in SS on SomaFM:
http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=9239&filename=playlist.pls

Winamp tuned in about 15 seconds, and plays without a problem.

SlimServer Version: 6.5.1 - 11099 - Windows XP - EN - cp1252
Server IP address: 192.168.0.100
Perl Version: 5.8.8 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
MySQL Version: 5.0.22-community-nt

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 17:56
I think we've already been over this... the streams you claim don't work, do in fact work fine for me and others. I have yet to find a stream that works in Winamp and does not work on an SB, so I really can't do any sort of debugging or anything.

Andy,

i realize that you are doing what you can, but for clarity's sake:

i never claimed the problem was with the streams, i have claimed the problem is with the SD product's handling of the streams.

just b/c u can't reproduce it where you are, doesn't mean it isn't happening, or isn't a SD problem.

and even if its true my ISP is "flakier" than yours, since winamp has no problem with my ISP, the problem would still lie with the SD solution / implementation.

the question to me is, why isn't the SD product as robust?

of course, presently, i'm not experiencing the issue. but it comes and goes, typically for weeks at a time of one way or the other. i can only hope it stays gone.

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 18:02
Could be other things such as a wireless SB vs. a wired computer. Anyway, until we can find a reproducible case where something works in Winamp and fails in SB for everyone regardless of their internet or network setup, we can't really make any progress on this issue.

and btw, this is def not the case with me.

this might apply to others, but since i NEVER changed anything with my wireless setup, over the weeks and months this has come and gone multiple times, i think we can safely put this one to bed. it is NOT the wireless setup i have, and i think we should stop looking in that direction, and start getting a little more introspective.

andyg
2007-01-08, 18:10
OK, let's not talk about the fact that Winamp simply tries the next stream in the list and the next until it finds one it can connect to. Time elapsed till connect and playing can be as long as 60 seconds, but once it plays it never drops. I'm currently playing http://205.188.215.225:8006 but I started by tuning to http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=3201


This station tuned in right away for me, maybe 1 or 2 seconds. To avoid the Shoutcast problems, enter that 205 URL directly in 'Tune In' or you could use a SqueezeNetwork favorite.



The left hand figure varies from around 6 or 8 or even 9, and plays for a little while - maybe seconds, maybe minutes, then starts dropping off. When it reaches 0, the 10.0 to the right of the / starts dropping too, and the dropouts begin. Once both figures get close to or reach 0.0, play stops. Sometimes rebuffering starts for a while but typically stops at around 30-45% and then budges no more. I can't reproduce this on the same stream as above since I can never connect, but SomaFM Groove Salad typically behaves as I describe.


Your initial numbers are just what I see too, and the way most mp3 stations operate (sending an initial burst of many seconds of audio). The only things I can think of that would cause the drop-off of audio bandwidth are wireless problems, internet problems, problems with the broadcaster, or an ISP that throttles the traffic. I think there is at least one ISP (in the UK) that does this for certain ports to slow down p2p traffic.

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 18:29
The only things I can think of that would cause the drop-off of audio bandwidth are wireless problems, internet problems, problems with the broadcaster, or an ISP that throttles the traffic. I think there is at least one ISP (in the UK) that does this for certain ports to slow down p2p traffic.

but as i always have said, why then does winamp work???

your only "other than SD" resort in that case, is to point to "the wirelessness" of someone's setup.

but if it is NOT the wirelessness, as in my case, then it MUST be SD, yes? (local music of 256kbps played fine always)

or would you disagree?

if you would please finally agree with me that my wireless setup is fine, how do you then explain the inability (at the time it was happening) of SD to play a 32kbps stream, that winamp could play fine? not to mention the 128kbps that SD couldn't even load that winamp also played fine?

thats the question that i say you have never addressed. i know you want to help, but it seems to me you feel that if you can't reproduce it then it must be some esoteric weirdness of the troubled user, rather than the product.

andyg
2007-01-08, 18:41
Yeah, your wireless seems fine. You said your SB has been working fine for a few weeks, so that's even stranger. I'm really at a loss for ideas at this point.

jamullian
2007-01-08, 19:24
This station tuned in right away for me, maybe 1 or 2 seconds. To avoid the Shoutcast problems, enter that 205 URL directly in 'Tune In' or you could use a SqueezeNetwork favorite.

Entering that 205 URL directly still gets me the "no items found in playlist" msg




Your initial numbers are just what I see too, and the way most mp3 stations operate (sending an initial burst of many seconds of audio). The only things I can think of that would cause the drop-off of audio bandwidth are wireless problems, internet problems, problems with the broadcaster, or an ISP that throttles the traffic. I think there is at least one ISP (in the UK) that does this for certain ports to slow down p2p traffic.

Yes, I agree that there could be something in the Internet connection - I have mentioned that this is a satellite connection, and as such is full of proxies and latency which can not be bypassed (in-house it's all wired) - that is causing SS/SB not to work. I think we started with that premise ... and Winamp works.

I find it very disappointing that you have no wish to solve the issue.

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 19:48
Yeah, your wireless seems fine. You said your SB has been working fine for a few weeks, so that's even stranger. I'm really at a loss for ideas at this point.

it could be, (and i hope), that it was all a result of adelphia clumsily switching over to comcast. thats my best theory at this point, and one i hope is true b/c it should mean as they work out more and more kinks over time, the problem, for me, will be gone.

however, here's where i would start looking if SD was truly concerned with solving this problem:

i would create a test environment that simulated a flaky isp, and see how well SD handled it. does the SD solution fail far easier then winamp in the environment? try different collisions and other tcp stuff, and combos of them.

i realize how difficult it is for you to try to fix something you can't easily reproduce, so the next best thing is to artificially create an environment and see if u can reproduce conditions that make SD in the test lab act the same way, as whats happening to some of us users.

Cronos
2007-01-08, 19:54
i would create a test environment that simulated a flaky isp, and see how well SD handled it. does the SD solution fail far easier then winamp in the environment? try different collisions and other tcp stuff, and combos of them.

i realize how difficult it is for you to try to fix something you can't easily reproduce, so the next best thing is to artificially create an environment and see if u can reproduce conditions that make SD in the test lab act the same way, as whats happening to some of us users.

Another option would be for you to try to eliminate the possibility that perhaps (very likely) it is your wireless that's creating the problem. Connect your squeezebox via ethernet, and post again when the problem reoccurs.

Although you say your wireless is not at fault, wireless is flaky at the best of times. The fact that you're saying it's working properly now says that the most likely culprit is something where the conditions change, and believe it or not, but wireless networking conditions are changing constantly.

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 20:12
my wireless is at 100%, it sits 2.5 feet from my router, i have no neighbors nearby and likely few if any of them have broadband, and i play local music flawlessly.

and the OP stated quite clearly earlier in the thread that his setup is totally wired.

why do u insist its probably the wireless when there is no reason to think so?

believe me, if it should happen again, i will wire it, to simply eliminate the red herring wild goose chase of the wireless scapegoat, (at least in my case).

Cronos
2007-01-08, 20:23
my wireless is at 100%, it sits 2.5 feet from my router, i have no neighbors nearby and likely few if any of them have broadband, and i play local music flawlessly.

and the OP stated quite clearly earlier in the thread that his setup is totally wired.

why do u insist its probably the wireless when there is no reason to think so?

believe me, if it should happen again, i will wire it, to simply eliminate the red herring wild goose chase of the wireless scapegoat, (at least in my case).

Getting so defensive isn't going to solve your problem. I'm nobody overly technical, just a very satisfied user who has had one problem with his SB since he's owned them, and that problem was related with the wireless networking despite me thinking everything was absolutely 100%.

I insist it's probably the wireless, because 99 times out of 100 it is. Why wouldn't you tackle the known weakest link first rather than clamping your hands over your ears and shouting 'NO NO NO'.

The worst that can happen is you'll prove you were right, and then someone can move on to the next step to help diagnose your problem.

You're saying it's working right now. What has changed?

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 20:41
if i'm defensive, its b/c i KNOW its not the wireless. this isn't the first thread this has been gone over in, don't assume i haven't "tackled" all the possibilities it was in my power to do so. probably half my posts are on this topic.

fyi, it was only SOME streams that had the problem, not all did, and local music didn't. if it were the wireless, that wouldn't be the case. andyg seems to agree that in my case, it probably isn't the wireless.

and the other side of the coin is that all too often people will keep harping on the wireless angle b/c they either believe thats it 99% of the time, or b/c they love SD so much they don't want to admit it might have a problem.

its not personal, its just that your input, in my case, and that of the OP, is not going to help, b/c what u seem to be sure it is, it isn't.

as to moving on, thats exactly what i'm trying to do, but of course now it is working again, (and note, nothing about my wireless is different), so i can't continue working on the issue.

as to what has changed, i wish i knew, but as i said, my GUESS is that i think comcast is cleaning up its act since switching over from adelphia. but its just a guess, i can't say for sure... i wish i could b/c then id know for sure what the cause of the issue is.

andyg
2007-01-08, 21:11
Ah yes, satellite, this could certainly be the problem. Simulating a poor network through a Linux virtual machine is actually something I've done once before so that's a good idea. It will be quite interesting if Winamp can survive such an articifically poor network. I will give it a try later this week.

stinkingpig
2007-01-08, 21:14
On 1/8/07, MrSinatra
<MrSinatra.2k4jgz1168314301 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> if i'm defensive, its b/c i KNOW its not the wireless. this isn't the
> first thread this has been gone over in, don't assume i haven't
> "tackled" all the possibilities it was in my power to do so. probably
> half my posts are on this topic.
>
> fyi, it was only SOME streams that had the problem, not all did, and
> local music didn't. if it were the wireless, that wouldn't be the
> case. andyg seems to agree that in my case, it probably isn't the
> wireless.
>

It's almost as if some streams come from farther across the Internet
than others, and have more network hops... nah, that's crazy talk.
Never mind.

> and the other side of the coin is that all too often people will keep
> harping on the wireless angle b/c they either believe thats it 99% of
> the time, or b/c they love SD so much they don't want to admit it might
> have a problem.
>

I've had SD firmware problems, and I'm certainly willing to believe
that they exist. It was over 3 years ago and I think there's only been
one similar problem since then. That said, wireless problems are a lot
more common. You say nothing has changed, and I'm sure nothing has
changed within your house. Do you live out of range of other equipment
in the 900 MHz and/or 2.4 GHz range though? Maybe your neighbor bought
a microwave. You've said things got better recently... maybe your
neighbor didn't like it and returned it. I'm just trying to point out
that it's really easy to say "I KNOW it's not my problem", but it's a
little harder to be sure that it's not your problem.

I got to spend this morning in my crawlspace after my server/router
decided to barf when the outside temperature dropped to freezing;
turns out that the server's NICs are failing, and the symptoms are
certainly comparable to yours; jiggling the wires puts it all back to
rights for now, but who knows. I've never had good Internet radio or
VoIP or Webex performance, but I've written it off as ISP trouble
until recently. Now, if I only look at one problem in isolation, is it
the failing NICs, or is it some Linux kernel bug, or is it Slim
Devices firmware? Kinda hard to say until the whole thing fails,
right?

--
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
So across the Western ocean I must wander" -- traditional

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 21:15
thx andy!

(and i'll forgo the sarcasm about how long its taken to get to this point...) ;)

MrSinatra
2007-01-08, 21:33
It's almost as if some streams come from farther across the Internet than others, and have more network hops... nah, that's crazy talk.
Never mind.

i live 40minutes from the source of the stream. yet other streams (and all other streams are farther away from me than 40min), did work.

yes, i know geography isn't equal to net distance, but still, i don't think the PSU.edu traffic goes to china b4 it gets to me 40min away.



> and the other side of the coin is that all too often people will keep
> harping on the wireless angle b/c they either believe thats it 99% of
> the time, or b/c they love SD so much they don't want to admit it might
> have a problem.

I've had SD firmware problems, and I'm certainly willing to believe
that they exist. It was over 3 years ago and I think there's only been
one similar problem since then. That said, wireless problems are a lot
more common. You say nothing has changed, and I'm sure nothing has
changed within your house. Do you live out of range of other equipment
in the 900 MHz and/or 2.4 GHz range though? Maybe your neighbor bought
a microwave. You've said things got better recently... maybe your
neighbor didn't like it and returned it. I'm just trying to point out
that it's really easy to say "I KNOW it's not my problem", but it's a
little harder to be sure that it's not your problem.

I got to spend this morning in my crawlspace after my server/router
decided to barf when the outside temperature dropped to freezing;
turns out that the server's NICs are failing, and the symptoms are
certainly comparable to yours; jiggling the wires puts it all back to
rights for now, but who knows. I've never had good Internet radio or
VoIP or Webex performance, but I've written it off as ISP trouble
until recently. Now, if I only look at one problem in isolation, is it
the failing NICs, or is it some Linux kernel bug, or is it Slim
Devices firmware? Kinda hard to say until the whole thing fails,
right?

sorry, but what exactly is your point? that we can't be certain its SD so we shouldn't focus on it and focus on everything else instead?

at the time i was having the problem, i STILL had ruled out all other possibilities within reason. LOCAL 256kbps mp3s worked, SOME other net streams worked, but some didn't.

does the wireless care which stream i listen to???

the OP btw, is NOT wireless, yet his problems sound EXACTLY like what i had.

and how close would a microwave need to be? and would they have it on 24/7?

what i am saying is i had ruled out everything i can think of on my end thats reasonable to rule out. what is left as the most likely culprit is SD/SB/SS.

now, just b/c i can't tell you it isn't my neighbors nuclear powered microwave with the certainty of god, doesn't mean, or imo, SHOULDN'T mean that we can't put the focus where it belongs, on the SD product. this is the reasonable most likely possibility at this point, unless u can explain why you think it should be something else, given the results as i described, (meaning some other streams worked, or the local stuff worked wirelessly).

Robin Bowes
2007-01-09, 05:48
MrSinatra wrote:
> andyg;168410 Wrote:
>> The only things I can think of that would cause the drop-off of audio
>> bandwidth are wireless problems, internet problems, problems with the
>> broadcaster, or an ISP that throttles the traffic. I think there is at
>> least one ISP (in the UK) that does this for certain ports to slow down
>> p2p traffic.
>
> but as i always have said, why then does winamp work???
>
> your only "other than SD" resort in that case, is to point to "the
> wirelessness" of someone's setup.
>
> but if it is NOT the wirelessness, as in my case, then it MUST be
> winamp, yes? (local music of 256kbps played fine always)
>
> or would you disagree?
>
> if you would please finally agree with me that my wireless setup is
> fine, how do you then explain the inability (at the time it was
> happening) of SD to play a 32kbps stream, that winamp could play fine?
> not to mention the 128kbps that SD couldn't even load that winamp also
> played fine?
>
> thats the question that i say you have never addressed. i know you
> want to help, but it seems to me you feel that if you can't reproduce
> it then it must be some esoteric weirdness of the troubled user, rather
> than the product.

I don't normally use Internet radio, but I thought I'd try it to see if
it worked for me.

Shoutcast worked fine. I couldn't work out how to use the shoutcast.com
URL [1] but using the IP address directly [2] worked fine. Also, many
other shoutcase stations played fine.

By "played/worked fine" I mean that I click the URL and the station
begins playing in 1-2 seconds.

Now, this doesn't rule out a problem with the Squeezebox/Slimserver
combination, but it does suggest that there may be some difference in
your setup that triggers the issue.

I can understand your frustration, but it's really hard to fix something
when you can't reproduce it (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

Can you remind me what your setup is, i.e. server OS, SB version,
Slimserver version, firmware revision, network topology, etc ?

R.

PS. My setup is:

Transporter wirelessly connected to Linksys WRT54GS using WPA2
Linksys connected to Cisco ADSL modem/router
Metronet broadband (unlimited, 8Mb/s)
slimserver trunk running on Linux (FC6)

[1] http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=3201
[2] http://205.188.215.225:8006/

oreillymj
2007-01-09, 06:55
Just my 2p worth.

andy's thought's that wireless might be the culprit is based on the info you yourselves have given him.

i.e. In 6.2, the stream went to your slimserver and then on to the SB. This, you say worked fine. Maybe there was some bit-rate limiting happening here or, prior to WMA streams being supported, transcoding using WMADec/Lame.

With 6.5 you have 2 changes, 1 WMA is supported natively and the SB handles the streaming itself.

So there are 2 possibilities I can think of.

1) The stream exceeds the bandwith of your wireless network. It would be interesting to get some info about the stream bitrate.
Prior to 6.5 the transcoding might have covered this up, once your broadband was up to the task of keeping the stream going.

2)Your default gateway is mis-configured. Perhaps you have your default gateway set to your Slimserver and not your router, causing extra hops.

Also, are you in a mixed 802.11b/g environment. Do you have some 802.11b devices you use ocassionally.

It's a pity there wasn't a way to drop back to the old behaviour within a playlist.
i.e a comment in the playlist which forces Slimserver to stream from the radio station and transcode to the SB as it used to.

chris.mason
2007-01-09, 07:50
I've read through this thread, and I've not seen this suggested anywhere, so here's a thought...

Winamp is a software application that decodes a shoutcase stream, and gives it to Windows to play. SlimServer has to direct the SB to connect to the URL and play that, and it decodes in hardware (or perhaps SlimServer streams to SB, not clear on that one).

How about using SoftSqueeze to listen to the shoutcase stream on the same PC as winamp? Two software applications, decoding and handing the sound off to Windows? If that works fine, it would perhaps indicate that either this is a network issue between the SB and the router, OR that there is something odd in the way SB handles shoutcast streams.

FWIW, I listen to a variety of Shoutcast streams, including SOMAs Groove Salad. I'm in the UK, and I have cable. There are occasional hiccups, but it generally works on my wireless SB, which has 75% signal.

Chris.

jamullian
2007-01-09, 07:57
How about using SoftSqueeze to listen to the shoutcase stream on the same PC as winamp? Two software applications, decoding and handing the sound off to Windows? If that works fine, it would perhaps indicate that either this is a network issue between the SB and the router, OR that there is something odd in the way SB handles shoutcast streams.

In my case, attempting to play on SoftSqueeze is no more successful than with the SB3.

chris.mason
2007-01-09, 08:01
In my case, attempting to play on SoftSqueeze is no more successful than with the SB3.

That is very interesting...it suggests to me that the problem is definately NOT the network connection between your PC and SB or router and SB.
Which version of SoftSqueeze did you use? I believe softsqueeze works the same way as the SB does. This would suggest to me that the issue relates to the way the stream is handled.

jamullian
2007-01-09, 08:09
This would suggest to me that the issue relates to the way the stream is handled.

My point exactly.

chris.mason
2007-01-09, 08:12
My point exactly.

Indeed. Could it be a buffer issue? Does winamp handle buffering differently, use a bigger buffer? Is it at all relevant that Winamp and Shoutcast and made by/run by the same company, Nullsoft?

stinkingpig
2007-01-09, 09:04
On 1/8/07, MrSinatra
<MrSinatra.2k4lsc1168317302 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> Jack Coates;168445 Wrote:
> > It's almost as if some streams come from farther across the Internet
> > than others, and have more network hops... nah, that's crazy talk.
> > Never mind.
>
> i live 40minutes from the source of the stream. yet other streams (and
> all other streams are farther away from me than 40min), did work.
>
> yes, i know geography isn't equal to net distance, but still, i don't
> think the PSU.edu traffic goes to china b4 it gets to me 40min away.
>

They have these things called "diagnostic tools" you know. traceroute,
ping, and ethereal are almost everywhere, iptraf or bing would be
great if you're on *nix. Your hesitance to use them and post results
instead of SHOUTING a lot leads to my unwillingness to accept that
you've thoroughly eliminated all the other possible problems. You
haven't posted the results of a network bandwidth plugin test, you
haven't reported if it works when you moved to wired, and you haven't
said that you've used anything like *stumbler to validate your
wireless neighborhood. Maybe you've done all these things and are
insulted that anyone would impugn your troubleshooting capabilities,
but that hasn't been communicated adequately (except for the insulted
part).
....
> > until recently. Now, if I only look at one problem in isolation, is it
> > the failing NICs, or is it some Linux kernel bug, or is it Slim
> > Devices firmware? Kinda hard to say until the whole thing fails,
> > right?
>
> sorry, but what exactly is your point? that we can't be certain its SD
> so we shouldn't focus on it and focus on everything else instead?
>

The point is that focusing on a single device in a complex system is a
great way to chase your own tail. This is what the OSI layers are for.

> at the time i was having the problem, i STILL had ruled out all other
> possibilities within reason. LOCAL 256kbps mp3s worked, SOME other net
> streams worked, but some didn't.
>
> does the wireless care which stream i listen to???
>

Yes, obviously, because the buffer is draining. If the data flow is
marginal upstream of your location, hiccups in the last loop (wireless
in this case) become more prominent. Bear in mind that Winamp on your
PC has more than 25 megabits of buffer to work with.

> and how close would a microwave need to be? and would they have it on
> 24/7?
>

a) Depends how leaky it is.
b) What about a cordless phone? Or a generator? Or a home electronics
kit? Maybe you're down the street from ezkcdude, building DACs in his
garage :) I don't know that there is interference in your wireless
loop, but I haven't seen you effectively rule it out by posting that
the network bandwidth plugin is solidly 100%, so I'm mentioning it.
>
> now, just b/c i can't tell you it isn't my neighbors nuclear powered
> microwave with the certainty of god, doesn't mean, or imo, SHOULDN'T
> mean that we can't put the focus where it belongs, on the SD product.
> this is the reasonable most likely possibility at this point, unless u
> can explain why you think it should be something else, given the
> results as i described, (meaning some other streams worked, or the
> local stuff worked wirelessly).

I'm all done talking. Good luck,
--
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
So across the Western ocean I must wander" -- traditional

MrSinatra
2007-01-09, 11:59
I don't normally use Internet radio, but I thought I'd try it to see if
it worked for me.

Shoutcast worked fine. I couldn't work out how to use the shoutcast.com
URL [1] but using the IP address directly [2] worked fine. Also, many
other shoutcase stations played fine.

By "played/worked fine" I mean that I click the URL and the station
begins playing in 1-2 seconds.

Now, this doesn't rule out a problem with the Squeezebox/Slimserver
combination, but it does suggest that there may be some difference in
your setup that triggers the issue.

I can understand your frustration, but it's really hard to fix something
when you can't reproduce it (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

Can you remind me what your setup is, i.e. server OS, SB version,
Slimserver version, firmware revision, network topology, etc ?

R.

PS. My setup is:

Transporter wirelessly connected to Linksys WRT54GS using WPA2
Linksys connected to Cisco ADSL modem/router
Metronet broadband (unlimited, 8Mb/s)
slimserver trunk running on Linux (FC6)

[1] http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=3201
[2] http://205.188.215.225:8006/

most of my setup info is in my sig. i have a jan 5 07 beta.

perhaps i should repeat tho, that i am NOT saying this is a problem that affects everyone all the time, or one that even affects me all the time. right now, i can listen to the stream i love NP, and thats great. but as the problem has come and gone, (for weeks at a time in either case) nothing, NOTHING, has changed in my setup / environment, EXCEPT the changeover of my ISP from adelphia to comcast.

winamp never failed over this time. SD did.

it also seemed to be introduced with whatever ver change SD made when it sent streams directly to the SB, rather than to SS first.

now, if the problem should come back, i will wire the SB just to end this line of speculation. till then, there's not much i can do, if i can't reproduce the problem myself.

all i can say is there is what is possible, and what is probable. andy seems to agree that based on what i've told him in many previous posts that the wireless is NOT the culprit.

and since the OP is wired, its certainly not the culprit in his case, which sounds a lot like what i had.

but thx for the help. -mdw

MrSinatra
2007-01-09, 12:16
Just my 2p worth.

andy's thought's that wireless might be the culprit is based on the info you yourselves have given him.

if you look in this thread, you'll see andy say that in my case, it doesn't seem to be my wireless.

and the OP isn't wireless.


i.e. In 6.2, the stream went to your slimserver and then on to the SB. This, you say worked fine.

yes, it was good. the one bad thing is i don't know exactly when the versions switched, and when comcast started the switchover... so unfortunately, i can't say for sure what the "test results" were under different versions and conditions, and so on...

suffice it to say, ~6.3 - 6.5 comcast began taking over, and my problems started. unfortunately i can't be more accurate then that. i also don't know exactly when (or what ver) SD changed the code to have SB handle shoutcast directly rather than sending it to SS first, but i am pretty sure all 6.2.x vers did it that way, (ie. send it to SS first).


Maybe there was some bit-rate limiting happening here or, prior to WMA streams being supported, transcoding using WMADec/Lame.

With 6.5 you have 2 changes, 1 WMA is supported natively and the SB handles the streaming itself.

wma? the shoutcast streams encode as mp3. and neither they, nor i had any bitrate limiting setup that i know of, (and i admin the shoutcast servers). also even the 32kbps stream was too much for the SB.


So there are 2 possibilities I can think of.

1) The stream exceeds the bandwith of your wireless network. It would be interesting to get some info about the stream bitrate.
Prior to 6.5 the transcoding might have covered this up, once your broadband was up to the task of keeping the stream going.

like i said, it couldn't do the 32kbps stream, but it ALWAYS could play my 256kbps local mp3s fine.


2)Your default gateway is mis-configured. Perhaps you have your default gateway set to your Slimserver and not your router, causing extra hops.

i am pretty sure this is not the case.


Also, are you in a mixed 802.11b/g environment. Do you have some 802.11b devices you use ocassionally.

no G at all, only b, which is plenty good enough it would seem, since its all working currently, as it had in the past.


It's a pity there wasn't a way to drop back to the old behaviour within a playlist.
i.e a comment in the playlist which forces Slimserver to stream from the radio station and transcode to the SB as it used to.

YES! this is something i think should be optional.

if you experience issues with the "direct to SB" method, as clearly some of us have, then forcing it to go to SS first, then to SB would probably rectify it, (given that winamp works). this would be great.


but i don't know if its possible codewise to give such an option, thats an andy question. and to even be able to push for such an option, we all have to agree that my wireless in my case, isn't the problem, something i guess i can't prove to all the doubting thomas'es out there until the problem resurfaces for me, and i switch the SB to wired to eliminate it as a possibility.

thx, -mdw

oreillymj
2007-01-09, 12:17
Just a further bit of info.

From my Winamp.ini file

[Nullsoft MPEG Decoder]
miscopts=0
allow_sctitles=1
sctitle_format=1
http_buffersize=512
http_prebuffer=84
http_prebuffer_underrun=72
priority=2
8bit=0
downmix=0
downsample=0
max_bufsize_k=128

MrSinatra
2007-01-09, 12:21
That is very interesting...it suggests to me that the problem is definately NOT the network connection between your PC and SB or router and SB.
Which version of SoftSqueeze did you use? I believe softsqueeze works the same way as the SB does. This would suggest to me that the issue relates to the way the stream is handled.

the OP isn't wireless to begin with, but this still only strengthens his point.

however, i have read that softsqueeze is NOT a perfect emulation of a SB, in that some things are not the same and are not emulated. therefore while it certainly strengthens the argument, the naysayers will say its not the same thing.

in any case, its something i will also try (along with wiring my SB) should the problem resurface for me again.

MrSinatra
2007-01-09, 12:49
They have these things called "diagnostic tools" you know. traceroute,
ping, and ethereal are almost everywhere, iptraf or bing would be
great if you're on *nix. Your hesitance to use them and post results
instead of SHOUTING a lot leads to my unwillingness to accept that
you've thoroughly eliminated all the other possible problems. You
haven't posted the results of a network bandwidth plugin test, you
haven't reported if it works when you moved to wired, and you haven't
said that you've used anything like *stumbler to validate your
wireless neighborhood. Maybe you've done all these things and are
insulted that anyone would impugn your troubleshooting capabilities,
but that hasn't been communicated adequately (except for the insulted
part).

actually, in the other threads, you can see my "traceroutes" and so on.

however, i am not an internet routing expert and i am not familiar with all the geeks diagnostic tools. would it be helpful? sure maybe, but i am not aware of them, let alone qualified to use any of them, (beyond ping and tracert).

i do think, your seeming expectation that i do all that when the SB has a problem is lame and ridiculous. first of all, why don't you ASK what i've done previously? secondly, if i haven't done something, why don't you SUGGEST something for me to try and see if i do it before you condemn me? thirdly, and most important of all, the onus is on the SB to work, not on the user to become a card carrying member of geek squad to make it work or prove the problem is the SB's.

before you pop a blood vessel, i understand that frequently the user or conditions the user is in are at fault for something not working properly. i TOTALLY get that.

but what bothers me is when i have explained to you that it isn't a microwave, it isn't a neighbor, and it isn't my wireless, you continue to insist it probably is.

all i can say to you is IF the problem happens again, i will wire it. when i do so, i fully expect the problem to remain, and we'll be right back where i expected us to be, staring at the SB/SS as the most likely probable cause.

all i can hope for at that time, is that you won't then find fault with my router, modem, or cat5.


The point is that focusing on a single device in a complex system is a
great way to chase your own tail. This is what the OSI layers are for.

its not like it stopped working, and i said SD did it. i checked everything, tried different things, and what remained as most probable was SD.



> at the time i was having the problem, i STILL had ruled out all other
> possibilities within reason. LOCAL 256kbps mp3s worked, SOME other net
> streams worked, but some didn't.
>
> does the wireless care which stream i listen to???
>

Yes, obviously, because the buffer is draining. If the data flow is
marginal upstream of your location, hiccups in the last loop (wireless
in this case) become more prominent. Bear in mind that Winamp on your
PC has more than 25 megabits of buffer to work with.

you made no sense at all here.

understand what i am saying:

1.my SB is wireless.
2.it encountered problems with my streams of choice.
3.it couldn't play any of the 3 lion radio streams, even the 32kbps ones.
4.HOWEVER, the SB COULD play some other streams, including a Soma 128 one, as well as my local mp3s.

winamp has nothing to do with what i just said.

so i ask again, does the wireless care which stream i listen to?



> and how close would a microwave need to be? and would they have it on
> 24/7?
>

a) Depends how leaky it is.
b) What about a cordless phone? Or a generator? Or a home electronics
kit? Maybe you're down the street from ezkcdude, building DACs in his
garage :) I don't know that there is interference in your wireless
loop, but I haven't seen you effectively rule it out by posting that
the network bandwidth plugin is solidly 100%, so I'm mentioning it.[color=blue]

thats one leaky new microwave.

i have no landline. my neighbors aren't close enough, and few if any have broadband. i haven't run any diags b/c as i said, i don't have any diag pgms or know how to use them.

and if you mean what SD reports as my wireless strength, i believe i did say earlier in this thread and in other threads that SD says its 100%.

listen, if you want to help me, thats kool and the gang, and i'll appreciate any help i get and i think you'll find i'm willing to try just about anything.

but 1. you gotta give me a chance first, and 2. you don't need to be a smartass.

in the meantime, why don't you focus all that high powered technical insight on the OP, who IS currently experiencing the issue, and who IS wired?

chris.mason
2007-01-09, 13:11
the OP isn't wireless to begin with, but this still only strengthens his point.

however, i have read that softsqueeze is NOT a perfect emulation of a SB, in that some things are not the same and are not emulated. therefore while it certainly strengthens the argument, the naysayers will say its not the same thing.

in any case, its something i will also try (along with wiring my SB) should the problem resurface for me again.

I realise jamullian said his SB was wired. My intention was to find a clearer way of establishing where the problem might lie, which has, as you say, strengthened his point, which is good. Whether or not softsqueeze is a perfect emulation of an SB is not entirely the point. The interesting thing for me is that, on the same computer that winamp can decode and play a shoutcast stream with no problem, softsqueeze can't, and exhibits the same problematic behaviour is the real squeezebox, hence indicating the issue is unlikely to be network related.

Chris.

MrSinatra
2007-01-09, 13:17
don't get me wrong, its an EXCELLENT suggestion, one i'm glad you made, and i agree, the results are very interesting.

its just been my exp that some certain people on here, (pom poms), will point to ANY crack, regardless how negligible, to point away from the precious SB.

whats so great about your test, is that SSqueeze is also a SD product...

so SD got some splaining to do...

MrSinatra
2007-01-22, 00:35
jamullian, any updates?


Ah yes, satellite, this could certainly be the problem. Simulating a poor network through a Linux virtual machine is actually something I've done once before so that's a good idea. It will be quite interesting if Winamp can survive such an articifically poor network. I will give it a try later this week.

Andy,

any results to report? i'm curious.

jamullian
2007-01-22, 07:34
I have heard nothing.

Incidentally, I'm also able to stream reliably using the Hex Radio app on a Roku HD1000. It's a somewhat sparse interface, but works just fine. Not surprisingly, Slim Roku, another app for the HD1000 but which uses SlimServer as its head end, suffers from exactly the same issues as discussed, since it is the same software.

MrSinatra
2007-01-22, 13:55
can u desribe your setup a bit please?

i know your SB is wired, but how exactly does your net work?

you get DL's off of a sat dish? what speeds do you get on DL?

and how do you upload, or send info back? via normal phone dial up? sat? dsl?

also, who is your isp? and this is located where?

Scardeville
2007-01-24, 04:57
I've had much the same problem over the past few months since version 6.5. I mostly listen to CBC Radio 2 in the morning. I've chased the stream around in various forms including the http: link from CBC Radio's links page and the mms:// link. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I had this problem when I had SS 6.5 working on my WinXP machine and I have this problem with my new headless linux box.

For the past two or three months I was happily listening to an Ogg Vorbis stream but CBC has pulled that stream and I'm back to trying to chase their Windows Media stream, and it's a day-to-day thing and very frustrating.

Here's my setup:
SS 6.5 running on Fedora Core 5
D-Link DI-624, firmware 2.76, Static IP addresses
SB3 in wireless mode, WPA encryption
SB1 connected by ethernet, synced with the SB3
Cable internet connection (Rogers)

And here are my results which I find puzzling:
1. SS, of course, works fine streaming my own files (mp3 or flac)
2. I can use my Playlists or Slim Devices Picks to listen to a variety of other radio streams without difficulty.
3. I can listen to the CBC Radio Windows Media streams using Squeezenetwork.
4. I can listen to the CBC Radio Windows Media streams using Windows Media Player or Winamp from either the http:// or the mms:// URLs.
5. But, usually, none of the CBC Radio Windows Media streams will play from SS or from the SB. I've tried connecting from the mms:// addresses (e.g. mms://wm.cbc.ca/cbcr2-toronto), and from the http:// pointers from the CBC webpage (also listed in Slim Devices Picks). When I attempt to play them I get don't get any messages on the SB3. The display suggests it is playing but there is no stream. Occasionally, but not always, I get a display saying "Error decoding WMA: check file types", but usually I just get the little musical note symbol suggesting I'm connected, and if I go to Now Playing it suggests I'm connected.

Yesterday, after multiple attempts to link to the CBC 2 stream it mysteriously started to work. Today it won't work at all. And, as noted, the stream always works on Winamp and Windows Media Player.

6. Just for interest's sake, CBC1 on Ogg Vorbis works just fine but the CBC2 Ogg Vorbis stream appears to be dead -- it won't work in Winamp either. I don't know if it's my connection or CBC's problem -- since CBC Customer Relations is an oxymoron they won't respond to my queries.

Just to add another bit of data, I did a recent setup of SS with an SB1 for my girlfriend on a Windows machine and CBC WM streams work fine for her. I don't consider the difference in platform relevant since I've had my problems on a Windows machine as well. But all this suggests that there are three differences that could be significant; (1) she has a Motorola router, (2) she has an SB1 instead of an SB3, and (3) she has Videotron instead of Rogers cable internet.

Like other posters on this stream I'm prepared to believe that the ISP or the router setup could be involved, but I'm also frustrated that other software can handle these streams just fine but Slimserver and/or Squeezebox cannot. It would seem strange that I need to go and buy a new router or change my ISP to get my SB to handle CBC radio streams when Winamp obviously works fine with them.

andyg
2007-01-24, 07:34
Since you said it works for you on SqueezeNetwork, it's probably just a file type problem in SlimServer. Make sure you have "Windows Media -> Windows Media (built-in)" checked under Server Settings -> File Types. Don't check any other Windows Media boxes.

MrSinatra
2007-01-24, 14:14
i was thinking along those lines for him too andy, i'll be curious to see his reply...

however, assuming that ISN'T it, i would ask how long did you try the SN?

my results were that sometimes SN would last a bit longer than the local SS/SB setup. sometimes worse. very random.

also, have you tried your experiments on softsqueeze as someone noted above? it would be interesting to know.

lately the problem has been coming back for me, BUT not dramatically so. i think it occurs more often during peak usage of the comcast ISP, BUT again, i can have multiple 128 streams on winamp, and not even one stable 32 stream on SD.

if it gets worse, i will try some things on my end, (like softsqueeze, wired, and earlier SS versions) but its only intermittent and not too severe at the moment.

bflatmajor
2007-01-24, 14:34
I used to have a similar problem,

Some shoutcast streams would work and some wouldn't
Some shoutcast streams would work and then low and behold it would stop working.

what I noticed was that my network was dropping packets between my pc and sb 2.

Btw, it's a wireless connection from pc to sb2 . Wired from router to pc.

What seem to have resolved the issue was that I changed my MTU value in the router configuration. I had the linksys tech people on the line and explained to them what was going on and told them I thought it was dropping packets. They walked me through the change and now all my streams play without an issue.

Now that I've said that, watch me go home and tune in and the issue will happen again. :-)

MrSinatra
2007-01-24, 14:37
my MTU is 1492, whats yours?

(btw, some people in here are wired with the problem, fyi)

Scardeville
2007-01-25, 04:56
Since you said it works for you on SqueezeNetwork, it's probably just a file type problem in SlimServer. Make sure you have "Windows Media -> Windows Media (built-in)" checked under Server Settings -> File Types. Don't check any other Windows Media boxes.

No, that's the way it was set, Andy -- just "Winows Media (built-in)* checked. And to answer Mr. Sinatra's question the stream will play on SN for a variable length of time (one minute to an hour) and then stop, at which point I have to restart it.

But I found a fix. Note that I had my SB1 synched with my SB3, acting as a remote. When I unsynch them the SB3 will play the mms stream. When I synch them the stream stops and won't restart. Interesting, since Ogg Vorbis and mp3 streams do work with the players synched. So I added Shadow Play and it works just fine. I also tried Shadow Play (Permanent) but, while it shows up in SS in my list of Plugins, it doesn't actually work, so I'll need to figure that out (yes, I have the correct MAC addresses inserted).

chefgrill
2007-01-25, 13:24
I have, i think the same Problem...

If I'm listening to a stream (doesn't have to be anytime or any stream) it somehow brakes. It's difficult to explain, it's like everything is rumbled. After a few seconds SB is rebuffering, an it all starts again.

foobar plays the streams with no problem.

what i did without impact:
Changed internet router
Changed from wireless to wired
Set up SlimServer on my mac to test.

what i figured out:
softsqueeze doesn't have the problem
if i sync my 2 squeezeboxes, the problem is gone!

in my eyes this proofs that the problem is the squeezebox handling the stream directly. an option to set ss to stream shoutcast through ss and not directly would fix the problem.

I'll let you know as soon as i know more.

chefgrill
2007-01-25, 13:44
the problem seems to be gone for the moment, so i cannot proof my idea at the moment :-(

MrSinatra
2007-01-25, 14:06
imo, i think the reality is as you said, but for whatever reason, SD does not want to admit or even for a moment consider, that what we are saying is true.

i for one, will not purchase a second SB to prove it, but i am fairly confident you have just done so. great experiment.

chefgrill
2007-01-25, 15:09
Had it once again, problem exists, even if i restart the stream it'll happen again... turned on my other sb, problem gone.

I have cable internet, as it is 11pm in Switzerland now, it seems like there's not much load on the network.. maybe this has an impact.

@andyg
please tell me if you have any idea on what else i should test. i can do ethereal/wireshark tomorrow, but only if it makes sense, because it'll be some work to make my environment sniffable.


@MrSinatra
I see your concerns, but shouting around will not help solving the problem.

andyg
2007-01-25, 15:15
I'd be more interested in what the buffer fullness display shows as you're listening to the stream, and what happens if you manually pause the stream for, say, 30 seconds, to let it rebuffer. Is the station WMA or MP3?

chefgrill
2007-01-25, 15:34
Stream is mp3
http://pausenraum.ch:8000/listen.pls

i don't get the problem right now, so i can't check, but I'll let you know.

MrSinatra
2007-01-25, 16:07
chef,

i've been trying to get people to believe this is a real problem that is caused by SD since at least 6.5, (ie. months ago), and only until recently, the going attitude was it must be me, (ie. i must be crazy, incompetent, or both), and so forgive me if i shout, but shouting is the last resort of someone who is not heard.

if u search, you'll see i've been pusing this in lots of posts, not just this thread. i am very glad u made this discovery, please keep after it, obviously this affects a number of people. my only fear is that once acknowledged, it may become evident that the SB does not have the wherewithall to handle the stream in the hardware in this new paradigm.

the streams i have trouble with are at www.LION-Radio.org but others with SBs have tried them without a problem, even while i had one. i think the ISP has much to do with it.

chefgrill
2007-01-25, 16:43
MrSinatra, I'm glad that I'm not the only one having this problem, but you cannot expect SD to solve the problem without letting them know that it is not your setup. I was sure that it's not my wireless, tried wired anyway, was sure it isn't my slimserver, set up another... i hope you see my point.

i think it's important that this thread has as little Off Topic talk as possible, so it's better to concern on the problem.

if you have something more about what we were just talking you can pm me.

regards, nico

MrSinatra
2007-01-25, 16:50
i agree with what you're saying, but my question then would be, how many MONTHS should it take b4 i've convinced people its NOT just me?

you should be glad that unlike me, you weren't the first to bring this problem to the fore. sorry, i'm frustrated, i've been dealing with this for quite some time, and listening to lion radio is the #1 reason i bought the thing.

i am curious, have you tried my streams? do they work without issue?

chefgrill
2007-01-26, 07:31
@andyg

i just made 2 little films showing the SB's display while the problem happens. You can also hear the Sound which is rumbled (i don't know if this is the word to describe that.. so let me know if i'm wrong).

http://www.nicobaumgartner.ch/diverses/MVI_4817.AVI
http://www.nicobaumgartner.ch/diverses/MVI_4818.AVI

@mrsinatra i've listened to lion-radio for about 20 minutes, but had to leave..

andyg
2007-01-26, 08:24
Thanks for posting those, nothing shows the issue quite like a movie. I would be interested to know if a power cycle clears the problem up the next time you see it. What happens if you play another 128k mp3 stream right after you start to see the problem? Try SomaFM or Proton Radio for example.

andyg
2007-01-26, 10:36
Here's what I'm going to do: I will add a pref to 6.5.2 that allows you to disable direct-streaming mode for mp3 streams. This will revert to the pre-6.5 way of streaming that you all report works just fine. I should have this in today so you can try tonight's nightly and see if things improve. The pref will be per-player and will be located under Player Settings -> Audio called 'MP3 Streaming Method' or something like that.

chefgrill
2007-01-26, 11:17
thanks a lot andy

if you want i'll test what happens if i cold start the SB, and what happens if i start another stream.

andyg
2007-01-26, 12:09
OK guys, the feature has been added. Please let me know what you think.

MrSinatra
2007-01-26, 15:05
@andyg

i just made 2 little films showing the SB's display while the problem happens. You can also hear the Sound which is rumbled (i don't know if this is the word to describe that.. so let me know if i'm wrong).

http://www.nicobaumgartner.ch/diverses/MVI_4817.AVI
http://www.nicobaumgartner.ch/diverses/MVI_4818.AVI

@mrsinatra i've listened to lion-radio for about 20 minutes, but had to leave..

first, i have ALWAYS wanted to do the movie, i just don't have a suitable camera, GREAT MOVE!

second, OUCH, had to leave b/c u didn't like the station? or just had to leave anyway?

if u didn't like it, what was on, i'm curious...

chefgrill
2007-01-27, 02:51
it's not what i'm usually listening to, but i didn't leave because of the station ;-)

i'll install the new build right now..

.. got it installed, testing.

jamullian
2007-01-27, 09:29
Here's what I'm going to do: I will add a pref to 6.5.2 that allows you to disable direct-streaming mode for mp3 streams. This will revert to the pre-6.5 way of streaming that you all report works just fine. I should have this in today so you can try tonight's nightly and see if things improve. The pref will be per-player and will be located under Player Settings -> Audio called 'MP3 Streaming Method' or something like that.

Thanks. I had high hopes. Which took only a few minutes to dash.

With the "proxied" setting, I was able to connect to a saved URL that I knew had a good chance of playing directly, and it played for 13 minutes then stopped. Rebuffering did not succeed, it never went past 0% (but there was no interruption in the internet access).

I then tried again going to a Shoutcast playlist URL - by doing a search in the Shoutcast directory for Ambient Psy, then choosing Digitally Imported Ambient Psy. If I understand this correctly (based on what I see both with Winamp and with HexRadio on Roku), this connects to a sort of virtual playlist of streams that the player then cycles through looking for one to connect to. Both Winamp and HexRadio usually settle for about the 8th or 9th on the list - SS/SB3 simply sits there saying "Checking Stream" for as long as I have my Station timeout set (I even increased it to 90 secs), but does not initiate a play. This is actually an improvement or at least change, it used to come back with an "Error getting playlist" most of the time before.

I tried again using the URL (http://205.188.215.228:8006) plucked from winamp's successful play display. Played for another 10 minutes or so then stopped, rebuffering went as far as 4% though. (Not quite enough!).

Tried to play the URL again. This time SS crashed - locked up. had to stop the service and restart it.

Overall I would say we have change, but this does not really constitute a solution for me. Winamp and HexRadio continue to work without a problem.

Update: that last restart of SS seems to have improved something - and of course it might just be a coincidence. I have now been playing the stream (direct URL) for an hour without it breaking, except for one SUCCESSFUL rebuffer. This IS progress.

chefgrill
2007-01-27, 10:41
jamullian
did you do the setting for your sb to always use ss as proxy?


it seems to work for me.. had a few buffer underruns on bassdrive, but i think that's a bassedrive issue, as i didn't have it with groove salad (listened to it for approx 3h) and pausenraum (the one i posted, for about 1h)

i'll keep you guys updated.

jamullian
2007-01-27, 10:47
jamullian
did you do the setting for your sb to always use ss as proxy?


Yes I did. And see the update to my last post: after another restart of SS. I appear to have a stable and rebufferable stream for now.

Elissen
2007-01-27, 18:20
Hi! I'm a brand new SB3-user (just gotten mine last monday). One of the more important reasons for me to buy the SB3 was to listen to premium DI.fm channels where I have a subscription - you guess what, I have the same issues as described here. I am a software developer, but I have never touched a single line of Perl (but I have worked in quite a few other languages). I'll try to make a summary of my experiences and observations. First, my setup:

Debian Sarge, 2.4 kernel, MySQL 4.1 (not using the build in server). SlimServer 6.5.1 and SB3 fw 72 (?). Perl v5.8.4 (I'm currently not at home, can't log into the SlimServer).
That server is doing NAT for my network (one of its tasks) hooked to a 100mbit switch. A Linksys WRT54G router (NAT turned off here, it works more like a switch now) provides wireless connectivity. I have a 6mbit downstream and 768Kbps upstream (ADSL).

When playing a 192Kbps MP3 stream from DI I have very very frequent interruptions, quite often after a few seconds. I tried buffer levels from 3 seconds to the full 30 (and that takes ages). The right buffer puls up to 10 seconds and sometimes the left one to 5 and then it starts to drop. Sometimes it managed to stay stable for 30 seconds, but then it drops and does not pick up again.
WinAmp managed to play that stream uninterrupted for hours and hours.

Now here are two interesting observations: a Windows Media stream at 128 Kbps, also from DI.fm, works quite well. I have listened to DI's vocal trance for almost two hours last night and it only broke up once of twice (which ain't too bad).
And #2: I downloaded ShoutCAST and installed it on my own PC. With the plugin in WinAmp I streamed some MP3's to the shoutcast server at 320Kbps and listened to it with my SB3 without any problems. None, it just flung to full buffers. Which tells me that the SB3 is technically capable of playing streams from ShoutCast servers.

Andy, if you want I can try to set up a portforwarding at my server for you, restricted to your IP, to a troublesome server. That will probaly be some rude networking conditions (USA(?) -> Europe -> USA). Same goes for access to the slimserver, restricted to your IP. Send me an e-mail if you are interested - please put your IP-address in there ;).

andyg
2007-01-27, 18:27
Please try 6.5.2 and enable Proxied Streaming mode, and see if it improves.

Elissen
2007-01-27, 20:10
Please try 6.5.2 and enable Proxied Streaming mode, and see if it improves.

Will do so, I'm installing the testing atm, looking at the package file it should be 6.5.2. I'll try it tomorrow when I get home.

Elissen
2007-01-28, 09:47
DI.fm Vocal Trance - 192 kbps MP3 (premium)
SlimServer 6.5.2

Direct streaming: after 10-15 secs the SB starts playing and within 10 seconds it starts rebuffering
Proxied: within 2 seconds the SB starts playing, the buffers rise to 1.0 / 10.0 seconds within aprox 5 seconds after it starts playing and stays there!

Andy, thank you very much!

MrSinatra
2007-01-28, 14:45
funny...

i was "having the problem again" until the new nightly w/this feature was released. since i got it, the problem has submerged again...

but i fully expect it back come monday, as i think it is related to number of users on the comcast ISP.

in any case, thx Andy for doing it, (altho i wish it hadn't taken it so long and been so hard to convince you guys that it wasn't me).

assuming this workaround works for me too, (and i think it will), we are however still left with some unsettling questions...

why isn't the SB-direct as robust a method?

in other words, why does the workaround work? what is it the SB isn't doing or can't do as well?

will it be fixed?

also, will there be (or is it even possible) to duplicate this feature on SN?

thx again Andy, its gratifying to see a workaround. -mdw

mherger
2007-01-28, 14:57
> why isn't the SB as robust a method?

Why can't you just shut up for a while? Say thanks and take a break.
Please.

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD
http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR

andyg
2007-01-28, 15:00
why isn't the SB-direct as robust a method?


Don't know, we need to look into it.



also, will there be (or is it even possible) to duplicate this feature on SN?

No, SN is direct only.

MrSinatra
2007-01-28, 15:18
> why isn't the SB as robust a method?

Why can't you just shut up for a while? Say thanks and take a break.
Please.

--

Michael


you got some issues pallie, why don't you go kick your dog again?

MrSinatra
2007-01-28, 15:21
Don't know, we need to look into it.

No, SN is direct only.

thx again Andy.

i am interested to know why, would love to hear when you find out, please let us know.

also, has SN always been direct only, or did it ever use to proxy?

the rub of course is that if SN can't proxy, i will need a computer on for when the stream is tanking.

Robin Bowes
2007-01-28, 16:20
MrSinatra wrote:
> Michael Herger;175093 Wrote:
>>> why isn't the SB as robust a method?
>> Why can't you just shut up for a while? Say thanks and take a break.
>> Please.
>
> you got some issues pallie, why don't you go kick your dog again?
>

I'm with Michael.

I, like many, are sick or your persistent whining and insistence that
you are right about *everything*.

Ok, so you have a problem, which Slim Devices are looking into.

You've got a workaround, which fixes the problem. But you "...fully
expect it back come monday...". WTF? It either works, or it doesn't. And
if it stops working, then a mail to Slim Devices support would be more
appropriate.

Please give it a rest for a while.

R.

PS. I don't have a dog.

MrSinatra
2007-01-28, 17:56
look, YOU are the one posting with NO POINT in your post, other than to attack me.

and my friend, YOU suffer from a misunderstanding on YOUR part.

to the people who have followed this or have this problem, they understood what i wrote, it wasn't cryptic.

the problem is: a stuttering stream. sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. anyone following this knows that.

right now currently, i am NOT having the problem, (without the workaround enabled) so i can't test the workaround. however, YES, i FULLY expect it will return monday, if recent past experience is any predictor... i will test the workaround at that time.

the cheerleaders need to give their pom poms a rest, i am going to post whatever i want and it is civil, so there's no problem here with that. not everything i say congratulates SS, but i'm a user who has VALID issues to speak to, you should just be glad you don't have the same issues i do, and stop trying to wish away mention of problems. if u got a problem with that, its YOUR problem, not mine.

i don't care whose back you've got, or why you seemingly feel the need to stick your nose in to attack me, but next time, get the facts straight b4 u attack somebody. wtf yourself. -mdw

Robin Bowes
2007-01-29, 05:25
<more self-important drivel snipped>

<sigh>

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

You just don't get it, do you?

*plonk*

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk )

R.

MrSinatra
2007-01-30, 11:05
hmmm, so its NOT what i say, its HOW i say it, and I'M the one spewing "self important drivel" into the thread?

hahahah, ANYWAY...

as i FULLY EXPECTED, the problem did come back, and low and behold, the new solution fixed it. (guess i was right, huh?)

it wasn't my router, my wireless, my cat5, cordless phone, the neighbors, a leaky microwave, aliens, or the weather afterall. it WAS in fact, the SB. shocker.

and yeah, i see the irony of how i wrote this post, it was intentional, and btw, not directed at Andy or SD.

so, thx Andy, although i do wish it had come sooner. and please let us know what you find out when you know why the SB can't do direct & why it can do proxied. Thx again, -mdw

ps. oh, and ANDY, please answer this: has SN always been direct only, or did it ever use to proxy?