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View Full Version : TS101 disk not spinning down - why is it a problem



Seineseeker
2006-10-10, 00:43
Why does it matter that the disk doesnt spin down with the TS101?

I quite like the weather screensaver and the RSS News feed when its not on. But it seems the disk keeps spinning when its doing that.

roamingstudio
2006-10-10, 01:51
Mainly when it is running all the time the system gets warm / hot; and the hard disks increase their risk of failure. In most PC's the HDD spins down / stops when the computer is idle or hibernates.

Some HDD are designed for continued operation - so for them it is less of an issue. The main problem is that the QNAP's change their properties when upgrading - and people were not aware of this.

Seineseeker
2006-10-10, 01:58
Mainly when it is running all the time the system gets warm / hot; and the hard disks increase their risk of failure. In most PC's the HDD spins down / stops when the computer is idle or hibernates.

Some HDD are designed for continued operation - so for them it is less of an issue. The main problem is that the QNAP's change their properties when upgrading - and people were not aware of this.

I think I ought to switch it off at night anyway, there still isn't any power down timer is there.

Jerryacg
2006-10-10, 02:19
Why does it matter that the disk doesnt spin down with the TS101?

I quite like the weather screensaver and the RSS News feed when its not on. But it seems the disk keeps spinning when its doing that.

The disc spinning down feature was the deciding factor for me, and presumably others, when choosing the QNAP over other NAS products. A few months ago this was a major subject on the forums, which took a long time to sort. QNAP themselves taking it on board, and including it specifically in the few release notes of their latest firmware release. If it wasnt an issue, why not just go and buy a Dell PC and dump it all on that. If I recall correctly (sorry if I'm wrong) you've recently bought your QNAP. Well during the, admittably hot summer, mine, and others' QNAPs got too hot to touch for more than a few seconds. Purely down to the fact that they were running all day everyday. Inspite of reassurances that this was OK etc etc. I would not, and neither would any electrician, trust the longevity of any electrical appliance that ran that hot for that long. Obvious other reason is that the QNAP makes a noise. I've got mine sitting next to the sub woofer, so when its playing, the subs drowning the noise. But when theres no sound, the QNAP still whirrs away. I think, fundimenatlly, if you buy a product that claims it has certain features.Then those features should work.

Seineseeker
2006-10-10, 02:39
Fair point Jerry. But you could easily be playing music on it for 8 hours a day non-stop, maybe longer, the disk would keep spinning all that time. Where do you draw the line? Having said that (and yes mine is new) I guess because I have it tucked away in the attic room I don't notice the heat and noise. Out of sight, out of mind. Not necessarily the best policy.

Fifer
2006-10-10, 03:28
A couple of points weren't fair actually:

If it wasnt an issue, why not just go and buy a Dell PC and dump it all on that.

I would not, and neither would any electrician, trust the longevity of any electrical appliance that ran that hot for that long.

A Dell PC isn't fanless, doesn't restart automatically after powerdown, consumes more power, takes up more space and is more expensive.

I'm a qualified electronics/electrical engineer and I understand that many devices are designed to and are perfectly safe to run hot. Do electricians not trust electric heaters or cookers ... ;)

Heuer
2006-10-10, 04:20
There is also the environmental impact of having all those disks spinning for no reason and gobbling electricity. Mind you this comes from the mouth of someone who has three cars with a combined cubic capacity of 12.2 litres and produce a total of 1,104 bhp. Still every little helps!

Jerryacg
2006-10-10, 05:23
Discussion on this issue is (not unlike the the hard drive in my QNAP when running 6.5) just going round in circles. My feeling is that none of us will ever get to the bottom of this problem. Some guys think it is a relevant issue. Some do not. We've now got to the point where more threads are started to discuss whos right about that, than how to fix it. Which in my humble opinion is pretty pointless. I don't feel the need to argue my requirement (again) that the QNAP should spin down and That being the reason I bought it etc etc. What none of us have is a response from Progressive who, to date, have provided a superb and unique degree of support. Presumably after this amount of time they will have an idea what the issue is. I for one, intend sitting back and waiting for their reponse. Because for good or bad, when it comes to QNAPs in the UK, we all rely on them for support..... Now theres a good idea for the subject of a new thread

Seineseeker
2006-10-10, 05:56
Discussion on this issue is (not unlike the the hard drive in my QNAP when running 6.5) just going round in circles. My feeling is that none of us will ever get to the bottom of this problem. Some guys think it is a relevant issue. Some do not. We've now got to the point where more threads are started to discuss whos right about that, than how to fix it. Which in my humble opinion is pretty pointless. I don't feel the need to argue my requirement (again) that the QNAP should spin down and That being the reason I bought it etc etc. What none of us have is a response from Progressive who, to date, have provided a superb and unique degree of support. Presumably after this amount of time they will have an idea what the issue is. I for one, intend sitting back and waiting for their reponse. Because for good or bad, when it comes to QNAPs in the UK, we all rely on them for support..... Now theres a good idea for the subject of a new thread

I agree, I assume when Paul has something to say (about memory upgrade or whatever) he will get in touch.

simonjedrake
2006-10-10, 06:13
Discussion on this issue is (not unlike the the hard drive in my QNAP when running 6.5) just going round in circles. My feeling is that none of us will ever get to the bottom of this problem. Some guys think it is a relevant issue. Some do not. We've now got to the point where more threads are started to discuss whos right about that, than how to fix it. Which in my humble opinion is pretty pointless. I don't feel the need to argue my requirement (again) that the QNAP should spin down and That being the reason I bought it etc etc. What none of us have is a response from Progressive who, to date, have provided a superb and unique degree of support. Presumably after this amount of time they will have an idea what the issue is. I for one, intend sitting back and waiting for their reponse. Because for good or bad, when it comes to QNAPs in the UK, we all rely on them for support..... Now theres a good idea for the subject of a new thread

Good comments Jerry
Last night I actually got my Qnap to spin down for the 1st time all by itself - Qnap Latest firmware - SS 6.5.0
What I did was:-
1. On SS Server Settings - Plugins Tab, I removed ALL options except for "iTunes"
2. Rebooted the Qnap to make the above change.
3. Unplugged the network cable
4. Waited 5 mins (Qnap admin Power Down option set to 5 mins) and then dead on 5 mins it went to sleep.

As this is the 1st time it has gone to sleep since I upgraded to SS 6.5.0 even when the network cable has been pulled, I have now proved that the Qnap can go to sleep by itself.
I believe that the above worked because either:-
1. One of the SS 6.5.0 plugins polls & causes disc activity (Unlike SS 6.3.1 which did not), or
2. The act of rebooting the Qnap cleared out a memory cache which was preventing it from sleeping.

So I think we have some progress which with further trials may lead somewere. I will continue tonight ........
Simon

simonjedrake
2006-10-10, 06:26
There is no need to clean up, expired items are deleted automatically because we have set auto_purge_interval to 1 hour. Yes, a single cache is shared for everything using Slim::Utils::Cache.
It's part of the auto purge feature.

This looks like our answer to our Qnap not powering down problem since we upgraded from SS 6.3.1 to 6.5.0.

Under a Tread in General Discussions called "V6.5 Huge File Cache" I have just found the above from Andy who is a SS Developer. It implies that SS 6.5.0 has built in routines which will cause disk activity..............how many others are there aprt from this purge routine???????

Andy_W
2006-10-10, 07:02
There is also the environmental impact of having all those disks spinning for no reason and gobbling electricity. Mind you this comes from the mouth of someone who has three cars with a combined cubic capacity of 12.2 litres and produce a total of 1,104 bhp. Still every little helps!

It's the thought that counts!!

Heuer
2006-10-10, 07:27
This looks like our answer to our Qnap not powering down problem since we upgraded from SS 6.3.1 to 6.5.0.

Under a Tread in General Discussions called "V6.5 Huge File Cache" I have just found the above from Andy who is a SS Developer. It implies that SS 6.5.0 has built in routines which will cause disk activity..............how many others are there aprt from this purge routine???????

The fix is in 6.5.1 so not available to Qnap users as yet.

Heuer
2006-10-10, 10:42
Good comments Jerry
Last night I actually got my Qnap to spin down for the 1st time all by itself - Qnap Latest firmware - SS 6.5.0
What I did was:-
1. On SS Server Settings - Plugins Tab, I removed ALL options except for "iTunes"
2. Rebooted the Qnap to make the above change.
3. Unplugged the network cable
4. Waited 5 mins (Qnap admin Power Down option set to 5 mins) and then dead on 5 mins it went to sleep.

As this is the 1st time it has gone to sleep since I upgraded to SS 6.5.0 even when the network cable has been pulled, I have now proved that the Qnap can go to sleep by itself.
I believe that the above worked because either:-
1. One of the SS 6.5.0 plugins polls & causes disc activity (Unlike SS 6.3.1 which did not), or
2. The act of rebooting the Qnap cleared out a memory cache which was preventing it from sleeping.

So I think we have some progress which with further trials may lead somewere. I will continue tonight ........
Simon


I tried that and ny Qnap will not sleep. Removed ALL plugins to no avail. But keep trying!

simonjedrake
2006-10-10, 12:45
I tried that and ny Qnap will not sleep. Removed ALL plugins to no avail. But keep trying!

Hueur.
I have just got home to find a nice "cold" Qnap that has slept all day by itself.
1. All SS Plugins apart from "iTunes" unticked on SS Server Plugin tab.
2. Qnap has been plugged into my Network all day.
3. Have now awaken the Qnap using my SB3, & it's happily purring away.

So as this is the 1st TIME it has slept for WEEKS & the only change is per 1. above, my assumption is that one of the SS plugins is stopping it from sleeping....but which one I have to find out over the next few nights.
Simon

Fifer
2006-10-10, 13:17
Hueur.
I have just got home to find a nice "cold" Qnap that has slept all day by itself.
1. All SS Plugins apart from "iTunes" unticked on SS Server Plugin tab.
2. Qnap has been plugged into my Network all day.
3. Have now awaken the Qnap using my SB3, & it's happily purring away.

So as this is the 1st TIME it has slept for WEEKS & the only change is per 1. above, my assumption is that one of the SS plugins is stopping it from sleeping....but which one I have to find out over the next few nights.
Simon

This gets stranger and stranger. I just checked and I've got every plug-in checked and yet mine spins down.

bonze
2006-10-10, 14:55
This gets stranger and stranger. I just checked and I've got every plug-in checked and yet mine spins down.
I've got every plug-in unchecked - but with the network cable still attached. No SB3 attached (it's switched off at the mains)

The QNAP goes to sleep for a while, then whirs back into action, then goes to sleep etc. etc.

peterbell
2006-10-11, 17:53
I've made a few experiments this evening. I set the sleep time to 5 minutes. I unticked all the plugins. I rebooted. It wouldn't sleep.

I unplugged the network cable. It sleeps.

Reconnect the network and it wakes up. I then power down (unplug power cable) from my two Squeezeboxes, and the QNAP still won't sleep.

Something else on the network must be keeping it awake. Windows networking? I'm about to power this PC down, so I'll see whether the QNAP then sleeps.

Heuer
2006-10-12, 02:33
Agreed. My Qnap LAN light flashes every 15 seconds despite the SB3's pointing at a different server. So it seems SS 6.5 is making a LAN request at regular intervals. I only have the random play plugin checked and have just upgraded to the latest Qnap firmware (makes no difference).

peterbell
2006-10-12, 03:34
A further bit of info - I have re-instated all the plugins I originally had active and now, even with the LAN cable disconnected, the TS-101 doesn't sleep.

So, I conclude that at least one of the plugins I have active prevents sleep. Also, some sort of activity, which only occurs when the LAN is connected, also prevents sleep.

Oh, and even with my PC powered down all night, but the LAN connected, it didn't sleep.

Jerryacg
2006-10-12, 07:08
Agreed. My Qnap LAN light flashes every 15 seconds despite the SB3's pointing at a different server. So it seems SS 6.5 is making a LAN request at regular intervals. I only have the random play plugin checked and have just upgraded to the latest Qnap firmware (makes no difference).

Heuer

The LAN on my QNAP has never stopped flashing. approx every 2 seconds. Prior to getting the disc to spin down with the latest QNAP firmware, I was totally convinced that the LAN activity was the issue. But, now, In my opinion it isnt. Its only the HDD activity that'll keep the disc awake. With 6.3 reinstalled and back to rock solid playing waking and sleeping, the LAN light still flashes. Even when the disc has spun down. BUT the Qnap will wake up imiediatly I boot up my wireless laptop, which is connected to the same network as the slimserver setup. even without that laptop being used to access the slim server web interface. Then it'll spin down on cue after 5 minutes, if it isn't being used accessed to browse the hard drive. So LAN activity will wake up my QNAP,But continued LAN does not keep it awake.

Jerry

roamingstudio
2006-10-12, 07:19
Just a thought on the wind.

The OS runs in a RAM drive on the system. If by any fluke the OS is paging the Ram FS to hard disk - then any activity would keep the drive awake?

Smiffy
2006-10-13, 00:56
I don't know if this helps, but I found any plugin that displays the Time will stop the disk spinning down.

roamingstudio
2006-10-13, 06:10
Ok I have TS101 - new - open on my desk (i.e. running no casing - just fresh air), mounted on PCB stand. The hard disk is set to power down after 5 minutes.

Im not sure whether the timer is actually correct - but it span happily away to itself for 10+ minutes before finally going into spin down.

roamingstudio
2006-10-13, 08:04
Ive been sat next to it working for a while. It seems the HDD likes coming alive every hour or so. NO SS is installed; so this is related to the firmware somehow.

Heuer
2006-10-13, 08:40
What version of firmware are you running? Also will it stay asleep if you pull the ethernet cable/

roamingstudio
2006-10-13, 09:21
Sorry - it is 1.2.1 - NO slimserver. The machine was cold with 1.0.0 this morning - and was upgraded in two steps to 1.2.1

Did not try pulling ethernet cable - but was aware that lan lights were flashing even when off.

bonze
2006-10-13, 14:17
Ive been sat next to it working for a while. It seems the HDD likes coming alive every hour or so. NO SS is installed; so this is related to the firmware somehow.
Have you unchecked or changed the 'Date & Time' settings on the QNAP config page? Does that stop the hourly spin up?

Heuer
2006-10-15, 11:17
For some unknown reason my disk has started to spin down and continues to do so after 5 minutes of no activity. Can't for the life of me think what I did to get it to do so!

roamingstudio
2006-10-16, 02:38
Had some time to do some investigations this morning.

System: TS101; Firmware version 1.2.1 - 4 files added (hard disk was brand new 250 GB Western Digital SATA II, 16MB cache). No Slimserver upgrade - so the cycles come from the 1.2.1 firmware.

System set to power down after 5 minutes no activitiy. Both Change Date and Time Manually and Sychronise with Internet were unchecked.

Power down occurs after 5 minutes; power up after 55 minutes; power down after 5 minutes... etc.

Then pulled the LAN cable
Power down after 5 minutes... power up after 55 minutes. Nothing was pressed; so this is coming from a scheduled service running somehow.

Running PHPTerm (installed to QWeb directory) it is possible to list the running processes (ps) - see attached file. Nothing obvious... any ideas to check to see if there are other scheduled functions?

flusk
2006-10-16, 03:52
There are probably a few other things to try and turn off.

rsyncd and proftpd can probably be turned off from the admin web.

After that try apache.

But if that still doesn't work it starts getting tricky!

(also worth looking at how much memory is in use using 'free')

roamingstudio
2006-10-16, 05:06
Tried switching off everything in the administration menu (new PID list attached). Disconnected the LAN... hard disk powered down... then up after 55 minutes. It stayed on for 5 minutes then power down again.

roamingstudio
2006-10-16, 06:02
Yep that is unchecked. I also logged in and killed the rsync and cron jobs - but they restarted automatically :(

So it seems that hourly cycling is a feature of 1.2.1 - and not SS. No idea what it is doing - some maintainence possibly. However since my system is running 'out of case' it is easy to assess the 'heat'. After two hours solid running (no power down) the metal plate (holding the HDD) is very hot to touch - not burning - but not comfortable!. With the 55 / 5 minute cycles; the metal plate was warm but definitely not hot. Within 3 minutes of power down it was 'tepid'.

Certainly this is not the problem which is observed with the SS installation - that appears to be a second issue. :(

roamingstudio
2006-10-16, 23:36
Flipflip posted a link to his SSODS - http://oinkzwurgl.org/ssods/ and mentioned the compatability charts. Interesting observation was that some of the synology products have problems with hard disk spinning down in 6.5.x

roamingstudio
2006-10-24, 13:50
Ok flagging this issue up again as there might be a reason... In the TS101 internals thread it has become apparent that QNAP made a couple of board revisions. Some have a heatsink; some dont (e.g. mine). Some have the Intel chipset; and others have a Realtek. One idea is *possibly* that the different in network drivers might be the cause of the strange spin down. People wont know that their drivers are different without actually opening the circuit boards.

One alternative is to use PHPTerm (google it). Provides console access as a guest account in order to observe what is happening - you would need to put the three files in the QWeb directory. You can then check using dmesg or cat /proc/pci (thanks flusk). DONT FORGET - to change the username and password combo in the .php file!

1. Do you have disk spin down problems - yes / know
2. What is your reported chipset - intel or realtek
3. which firmware are you using; and do you have the Progressive SS patch?

roamingstudio
2006-11-02, 04:00
In the firmware of the U-Boot loader; there is a configuration flag which seems to indicate that there is a standard spin down AND spin up time!