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MrSinatra
2006-10-06, 15:19
hi all,

the last day or so when listening to my college stream here:

http://146.186.221.181:8000/

during the day i have experienced a lot of stuttering. usually SS plays it fine for about 15-30min, and then starts stuttering.

if i use the remote to power off and then play again, or use SS to stop and then play again, its fine for another 15-30. so i am guessing its not net congestion.

i'm not nessarily blaming SS, and i have restarted it, and it seems to be better now, but it was happening.

(one thing i like that seems to be new btw, is that if you quit SS and / or reboot your machine, whatever net stream u are playing keeps going. i love that, b/c i hated when i'd lose the stream just from a reboot).

MrSinatra
2006-10-07, 12:03
still doing it today, and i see nothing wrong with the origin point, or net congestion.

i think its def a 6.5 thing.

bpa
2006-10-07, 12:19
Is it a stream that the SB3 will keep playing when SS it turned off ?

If so then the stream once started goes directly to the SB and SS only updates the display - any audio problems will be between the SB and the radio station.

MrSinatra
2006-10-07, 17:22
yes it is... its a shoutcast stream, .pls

is that a new SS/SB feature? it didn't always use to do that.

however, i didn't mean to imply it was def SS, it could def be the SB, and i think it is b/c of the firmware update.

when i first got my SB2, (right before SB3 came out), the firmware was not ready to handle internet streams longer than a couple of hours at the most, and i would frequently have to power cycle the gear.

however, one of the updates, (i assume a firmware one) fixed this issue. it wasn't doing it as of 6.3 for sure.

i think 6.5 has reintroduced this problem.

one thing i can do, is upgrade the stations shoutcast software, from 1.9.5 to 1.9.7, but i don't think thats it since it was the same with 6.3 and without issues.

any thoughts?

bpa
2006-10-07, 17:38
In 6.5, if a stream can be handled directly by the SB3 (i.e. mp3, WMA and Ogg-vobis), SS will try to set it up - I think this is the way Squeezenetwork works as well.

Around the same time there have been lots of problem with shoutcasts so there may have been updates there as well.

Given the SB3 works well with other MP3 sources, it would indicate the problem is with Shoutcast and/or network between your SB & Shoutcast.

The problem may not have shown up in the past as the Shoutcast stream terminated in the PC and MP3 data was rebroadcast by SS to SB.

At the moment you cannot force MP3 to be handled by SS - I am chasing a bug in this area and I found this anomaly. So the only real way to find out what's going on (don't forget it could be a router issue !) is to fire up Ethereal or similar.

MrSinatra
2006-10-09, 18:49
wow.

the problem is horrible now.

it starts stuttering within minutes... and all 3 streams are using the latest version of shoutcast, ver 1.9.7

i primarily bought the squeezebox2 (not "sb3" btw) to do just this, to listen to this internet station. the problems its having with shoutcast, which is incredibly popular and standard, are most disappointing.

i haven't tried the other two streams, but the highest one they have, 128kbps, is the one i am testing & expecting to work, as 128 isn't that high.

whats interesting is that when connected to SN it has happened, but not as fast nor as hard to fix/restart once started. this then relates to my responses to your comments below:


In 6.5, if a stream can be handled directly by the SB3 (i.e. mp3, WMA and Ogg-vobis), SS will try to set it up - I think this is the way Squeezenetwork works as well.

i would guess you're right, and i would love it to be this way, IF it worked properly, b/c i love the way the stream stays on even if you reboot the computer. but that isn't worth it if it can't handle normal shoutcast streams.

also, do you happen to know if now the power button on the remote is "real" now or has the way it works not changed? it seems closer now to a power cycle, altho i find i still have to often turn off my receiver (and its switched outlet) to get the sb2 to power cycle.


Around the same time there have been lots of problem with shoutcasts so there may have been updates there as well.

well, like i said, it was fine by 6.2 - 6.3

so if this change is that now SS sees its way out of the process and sb2 now does it alone, and thats what has introduced the problem, well, then they need to fix the firmware asap.

is that what you are saying?


Given the SB3 works well with other MP3 sources, it would indicate the problem is with Shoutcast and/or network between your SB & Shoutcast.

i don't see how you draw this conclusion.

it seems to me that the problem is with this "new way" that SS/SB handles .pls streams from shoutcast, esp since it USED to work just dandy w/shoutcast.

i have no problem listening to the stream with winamp for example.


The problem may not have shown up in the past as the Shoutcast stream terminated in the PC and MP3 data was rebroadcast by SS to SB.

right, which once again, would indicate its a slim problem with its "new way" as opposed to a SC/net problem.


At the moment you cannot force MP3 to be handled by SS - I am chasing a bug in this area and I found this anomaly. So the only real way to find out what's going on (don't forget it could be a router issue !) is to fire up Ethereal or similar.

i def think the option should be there to force slim to do it the old way, which i assume was having SS feed the SB, for at least as long as these problems continue.

thx for your comments!

andyg
2006-10-09, 19:05
Don't get sidetracked by Shoutcast, or pls, etc. If it plays at all those are not a problem. You can tune in directly to the stream if you're worried about that.

The real issue here is the bandwidth necessary to stream the radio station. Have you tried listening via a computer with Winamp, iTunes, or Windows Media Player? If the problem is your connection, those will also stutter.

You also may want to try the latest 6.5.1 nightly.

MrSinatra
2006-10-09, 20:28
andy, i really appreciate the reply, but as i said the problem is NOT evident on winamp or anywhere else. it only started with me installing 6.5 and as best as i can tell, its not a coincidence.

i run the shoutcast servers for the station, and we've not had any issues i am aware of.

i know the .pls streams are mp3 encoded, as i set them up btw.

this seems to me to be a SB issue in the firmware.

as a test, i fired up the stream in winamp. i then powered up the SB2 and told it to play the stream while connected to SS.

while winamp STILL plays fine, the SB2 eventually stutters. and its a strange stutter, its as if its catching up, skipping ahead, but it never catches up fully.

and, if i stop the SB, and then restart the stream, (using power or just the play button alone) the problem is gone until the next time it starts a few minutes (or whatever) later.

(it does the same thing with SN, but it takes longer, esp later at night)

i don't install beta software, but i will install it when its released, (which i hear is soon) and i will report then.

if ultimately it is a net congestion issue, then why doesn't winamp do it?

is it because of this new way of sending the stream right to the device?

is it b/c the device might not have a big enough mem buffer for conditions other than perfect net?

if so, for problems such as this, we need a way to force the stream to SN or SS first, which in turn will properly feed the SB without the stutter, (like winamp).

thanks, -mdw

bpa
2006-10-09, 23:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpa View Post
Given the SB3 works well with other MP3 sources, it would indicate the problem is with Shoutcast and/or network between your SB & Shoutcast.

i don't see how you draw this conclusion.

it seems to me that the problem is with this "new way" that SS/SB handles .pls streams from shoutcast, esp since it USED to work just dandy w/shoutcast.


I didn't phrase this clearly - I meant this is Where to look for the problem not What is the cause of the problem.

It may be the interaction between the SB3 MP3/TCP stream and Shoutcasts SB3 MP3/TCP stream that causes the problem but it could be something like a router that is provoking the stuttering (e.g. flow control).

An example:
IIRC there have been 3 cases of mplayer (AlienBBC) problems which caused PC crashes and jerkiness problems when playing BBC stations. RealPlayer played them OK. Updating the network driver cured two of the problems and the other needed router firmware update.

These are rare but interactions along the whole network chain can cause strange effects. In 6.3 - the end point of the Shoutcast stream is your PC, in 6.5 it is SB3 so TCP connection is different. If it is bandwidth related then buffering on the PC may have been bigger or handled differently and so hid this problem which has shown itself with the SB.

I think something like Ethereal needs to be used to definitively state whether it is an SB3 firmware issue or something else like bandwidth, flow control, packet assembly etc.

MrSinatra
2006-10-10, 00:16
i think its too easy to blame the network or the router or whatever...

the SB2 should be more robust if it is changed with 6.5 to handle net-radio alone without SS.

if it can not do this properly, then the problem is in the system / paradigm design, not the net cloud. and all signs point to either the hardware, or the firmware of the hardware.

if it were my router, which is a linksys BEFW11S4 V2, and is probably the most used router ever made, then again the problem is the slim hardware that has to account for it.

i don't mean to beat this drum to death, but the net cloud should be assumed to be filled with numerous vagaries of implementation, and a robust solution should be crafted to handle most of them, including popular routers, (altho i'm sure u meant any along the way, not just mine)

thx again, -mdw

bpa
2006-10-10, 00:29
You have a problem and you need it to be fixed.

Others have a similar setup to yourself but don't a problem so Slimdevices will need more information about your setup to identify and cure the problem.

As it is a network problem, I believe a network log is a good starting point to identify the problem.

Even if you don't know how to interpret it - sending Slimdevices support an Ethereal log will give them evidence of your problem and a chance to analyse it and then either fix it or at the very least explain the issue.

andyg
2006-10-10, 03:31
I've had this stream on for about 20 minutes without any problems.

Try enabling the buffer fullness display from Player Settings. Mine sits at 4%, as it does for most radio stations.

Marc Sherman
2006-10-10, 05:07
MrSinatra wrote:
>
> i don't install beta software, but i will install it when its released,
> (which i hear is soon) and i will report then.

You're missing a real opportunity to get this problem fixed if you're
not willing to install anything that isn't marked "release".

The whole point of a beta test is for users to try it out and report
problems before the release, to reduce the number of bugs in the
release. If you're not willing to try the open beta, you can't expect
the release to have fixed the bugs that you care about.

- Marc

MrSinatra
2006-10-10, 09:07
I've had this stream on for about 20 minutes without any problems.

Try enabling the buffer fullness display from Player Settings. Mine sits at 4%, as it does for most radio stations.


Andy,

since 6.5 i have found that the problem can take anywhere from just a few minutes to close to an hour, (when using the SB with SS).

as i wrote this post, it took 40min to occur.

it could also be that the vagaries of my net connection cloud route are different from yours, as i'm in central Pa, while you're in Pitts. (where i am, "adelphia" is becoming comcast fyi).

is "the buffer fullness display from Player Settings" a SERVER setting or a LOCAL PLAYER setting?

what category is the setting under?

i don't see anything resembling it under player settings. under server settings, network heading, i see "RADIO STATION BUFFER SECONDS" and mine is set to 3 seconds, as opposed to a percent.

is this what you meant?

also i had another thought...

could it be the "lame quality level" under player settings?

mine is set to 0 but it was b4 6.5 too, without problem. and isn't this a server function anyway? why is it under player settings?

does it even come into play if the stream is already mp3? meaning, is it for transcoding ONLY, or ALSO decoding mp3? i assumed this was for streaming music FROM my SS out to others on the net only.


bpa,

if i have to i'll DL and install that program, but i have no exp with it nor did i really want to take on a new learning project to get this fixed. but, if i have to, i will.

btw, my router/SB is setup to be wireless, and SB has 100% strength. the router connects to my motorola cable modem. the router has the latest firmware, and is setup to pass multicast stuff, ...i try to make it wide open. the cable modem is older, maybe a docsis 1.0, i'm not really sure, but its good as far as i can tell. my computer connects to the router via ethernet wire.


marc,

are you saying feedback on released programs is useless and the only valid feedback that will enable changes to the next release is on beta software? b/c that just isn't true. and from what i understand, 6.5.1 will be released very soon, so i prefer to wait. i just don't like beta software, never have, and generally just don't use it.


thx all -mdw

andyg
2006-10-10, 09:19
Andy,

since 6.5 i have found that the problem can take anywhere from just a few minutes to close to an hour, (when using the SB with SS).

as i wrote this post, it took 40min to occur.


I'll listen for a bit longer.



is "the buffer fullness display from Player Settings" a SERVER setting or a LOCAL PLAYER setting?

what category is the setting under?


Yeah it's a player setting. In SlimServer go to Player Settings for <player> -> Basic Settings page -> Now Playing Information, select Show Buffer Fullness. A percentage display will appear in the upper-right where the time usually is. It will report the amount of data in the buffer. Live radio should show about 4%. I expect in your case you'll see it drop to 0% when it stutters.



could it be the "lame quality level" under player settings?

mine is set to 0 but it was b4 6.5 too, without problem. and isn't this a server function anyway? why is it under player settings?


You can check to see that the lame process isn't running. Set Player Settings -> Audio -> Bitrate Limiting to No Limit.

andyg
2006-10-10, 09:22
One thing you may want to try in combination with the buffer fullness is to play with the "Radio Station Buffer Seconds" value. It will pre-buffer more of the stream before beginning playback. When set to 30 seconds the buffer fullness value for your station is at 10% instead of 4%. This means any network drops will have a less chance of causing any audio dropouts. Of course, too many network problems will still cause problems.

Marc Sherman
2006-10-10, 09:41
MrSinatra wrote:
>
> are you saying feedback on released programs is useless and the only
> valid feedback that will enable changes to the next release is on beta
> software? b/c that just isn't true. and from what i understand, 6.5.1
> will be released very soon, so i prefer to wait. i just don't like beta
> software, never have, and generally just don't use it.

No, I'm saying that giving requested feedback on a current nightly build
is an order of magnitude more useful than feedback on the previous release.

Consider the case where the devs aren't certain what's causing your
problem, and can't replicate it themselves. They think the problem might
have been solved by the current beta. Unless you install the beta and
are still seeing the problem, there's a pretty good chance that no
further work will be done on your problem. In that scenario, you're
basically stuck waiting until 6.5.2 is released to see a fix. And
historically, x.y.2 releases of Slimserver take much longer to come out,
if they ever do, than x.y.1 releases do.

If, on the other hand, you do try the beta and can confirm that the
problem still exists, then the devs will keep working on it and it might
actually get fixed in 6.5.1.

- Marc

andyg
2006-10-10, 13:09
OK, I just had this happen to me on a different stream. It's a buffering problem, the audio in the buffer slowly runs out over time due to network problems. We need to add a re-buffering feature where we just restart a stream when the buffer is nearly drained.

andyg
2006-10-10, 14:10
Just checked in some rebuffering code. It won't solve the problem, but will handle this situation better in that it pauses the audio while waiting for more data to come in. If there was ever a time you should test a nightly build, this is it. :) Grab it tomorrow after 4am Eastern. I'll also be rolling this out to SqueezeNetwork soon, but not sure if it will be today.

atlslim
2006-10-10, 15:50
Yeah it's a player setting. In SlimServer go to Player Settings for <player> -> Basic Settings page -> Now Playing Information, select Show Buffer Fullness.

Andy,

A couple of questions re: buffer fullness setting:
1) on SB3, I see spectrum analyzer staying on when buffer fullness is selected? is this expected behaviour
2) should I see buffer fullness displayed in a softsqueeze player? I don't currently

Thanks

Mark Lanctot
2006-10-10, 15:58
A couple of questions re: buffer fullness setting:
1) on SB3, I see spectrum analyzer staying on when buffer fullness is selected? is this expected behaviour

That's the overlay on the spectrum analyzer. Just keep pressing NOW PLAYING and you'll toggle between time elapsed, time remaining and buffer remaining for 3 modes: spectrum analyzer background, no background, and small spectrum analyzer on the right.

andyg
2006-10-10, 17:46
Yes to both your questions. :) I see it with the latest Softsqueeze 3.2 which is part of 6.5.1.

Ramage
2006-10-11, 04:44
Just to kick a few more ideas around:

I have been monitoring a particularly troublesome stream, which started stuttering after I loaded 6.5.1 and Softsqueeze 3.x.x. Now running SS 3.2.1 but effect is the same. (Timing could be coincidence tho')

The stream runs at 192Kb/s - Love Channel on 65.19.173.132:4064 - if snyone wants to try it.

The good thing is that SB3 plays this stream OK and maintains a buffer level of 3% or so consistently. I am unable to monitor the actual network throughput as SB3 connects directly to the stream.

Softsqueeze however will run for a while then start to stutter, the buffer level records 0% from start. Pausing playback will replenish the buffer and when play restarted, the buffer starts to reduce until stuttering begins at 0%.

Significantly, the same stream stutters on Winamp with buffer empty messages being displayed.

I am able to monitor network throughput on my PC, and this is showing the stream average throughput is less than 192K ergo, the buffer will eventually empty.

The conclusion is that SB3 is very much better at dealing with this stream in direct mode than my PC network card. My PC has no problem handling video streaming at much higher rates (I have an 8Mb/s ADSL) - so....

A point to note is that streams which are able to maintain healthy buffer levels transmit at much higher burst rates at startup, and when buffer replenishment needed. Love Channel is limited to a max of about 200K - not much headspace if there are network issues - this could of course be true for many more radio streams.

I get the same effects if I connect through SN.

Monitoring this stream on SB3 and Softsq at the same time, and SB3 is OK and SoftSq stutters.

Whether these observations throw any light on the problems experienced by others is debatable, but I would be interested if anyone else was able to duplicate these observations.

These tests were done on the WinXP setup.
Netgear DG834G Router.
Network monitoring using Ming Bandwidth Monitor and Utilkit DLUL Meter

bpa
2006-10-11, 05:19
When monitoring did you see if any of the stream (video especially) are using QoS measures such as DiffServ ?

Ramage
2006-10-11, 05:26
Can't say my monitoring tools only check bit rates.

How could I check?

Further measurements using my PDA to play back the stream via ActiveSync thro' my PC is stutterless!

bpa
2006-10-11, 06:58
It's been a while since I dealt with QoS and I'm not sure if it is used generally but XP implemented it. I don't know of specific tools just general ones like Ethereal.

Perhaps if you disabled QoS in the XP network interface it would be interesting to see if it makes a difference to Video streams.

atlslim
2006-10-11, 07:10
Andy,

Noticed quite a few recent check-ins in svn re: rebuffering streams. What differences in player behavior should we be looking for at this time?
Also, would the changes impact player performance when a plugin (SuperDateTime) makes async_http call while playing a remote stream?

Thanks.

Ramage
2006-10-11, 07:12
QoS was disabled, but I tried with it on and off with no noticeable difference in results.

This particular stream is marginal as my measurements give it an average bit rate of less than 192K - nominally 185K with peaks and troughs of 201K and 134K.

The interesting thing is that SB3 copes well with it whilst Winamp and SSq do not. In fact Winamp is poorer than SSq. My PDA player also plays without interruption.

Using Netstat showed the retransmitted segments were of the order of 1 or 2 in 15 mins.

I think there may be issues with how SSq manages the buffer, which indicates 0% on a number of streams whilst SB3 will show 3 or 4% on the same stream.

Because of all the variables in play with net radio it is difficult to be definitive about the cause of the problem.

andyg
2006-10-11, 07:17
Andy,

Noticed quite a few recent check-ins in svn re: rebuffering streams. What differences in player behavior should we be looking for at this time?
Also, would the changes impact player performance when a plugin (SuperDateTime) makes async_http call while playing a remote stream?

Thanks.

When playing a stream, if the buffer level drops to below the Radio Station Buffer Seconds value (the number of bytes needed for X seconds of audio at the station's bitrate), the stream will now pause and wait for more data. "Rebuffering..." will be displayed when this happens.

Async HTTP does not affect streaming.

Ramage
2006-10-11, 07:52
Andy

New buffer management works OK on SB3, but not on SSq 3.2.1, is that how it should be?

andyg
2006-10-11, 07:53
Softsqueeze can't benefit from the rebuffering code, it doesn't report buffer status in the same way. I'm sure this will get fixed in a future Softsqueeze version.

Ramage
2006-10-11, 08:00
Thought that might be the case.

Noticed that on start of (my marginal test) stream, SB3 reads about 3% then rapidly depletes to 0% and rebuffers to about 5% and holds steady at that.

Is the rebuffer different to the start-up buffer?

andyg
2006-10-11, 08:01
That's how it works in last night's build. I've made a few tweaks to it today, so it won't rebuffer unless the buffer is completely drained.

Ramage
2006-10-11, 08:10
Thanks Andy

andyg
2006-10-11, 08:28
I've also made another change: the Show Buffer Fullness display on remote streams where the bitrate is known will now display the number of seconds of audio in the buffer, instead of the percentage value which wasn't very useful.

andyg
2006-10-12, 08:52
Any feedback on the rebuffering feature, or the new Show Buffer Fullness display?

luga00
2006-10-12, 13:10
Yes, it works Andy. I now see seconds displayed instead of a percentage.

However, I still get stuttering on all stations in Shoutcast that were absolutely fine in 6.3. Some are worse than others but on the whole they all start stuttering eventually.

I've set the pre-buffer to 30secs but I see this dwindle down to 0 seconds after about 20 seconds or so and it starts stutteting again.

I never see the 'rebuffering' signal either.

With 6.3 I used to be able to listen to shoutcast streams for hours but now it's un-usable after a few minutes even on the most stable streams.

v confusing.

Russ

MrSinatra
2006-10-31, 13:53
Andy,

I have tried to be patient, but i am really getting upset now.

i bought a SB to listen to the LION's internet streams. it now doesn't allow me to do that in any kind of passable way.

I have not tried 6.5.1 b/c its beta, and i don't think it would make any difference anyway based on whats been said in this thread.

I assume that if it isn't working on SN, then its simply not going to work. i can't even listen to 32kbps streams on SN or SB/SS, BUT i can just fine on winamp.

it used to work, now it doesn't. WHEN WILL IT BE FIXED?

thanks, -mdw

andyg
2006-10-31, 13:56
How can you act like that when you refuse to try the fix in 6.5.1?

MrSinatra
2006-10-31, 14:07
based on what was said in the thread, it sounded to me like any discussed changes would not fix the issue, but if i'm wrong, np, i'll happily eat my words. i guess i'm confused as to how using 6.5.1 would matter or make a difference if the problem exists with SN as well.

is there a change to the firmware that actually fixes it with SN?

however, a lot of people don't run beta software, and i TRY to be one of them.

if i HAVE TO go to 6.5.1 beta to get this fixed, then i very reluctantly will, but how about getting it out there now with such a critical fix in an officially released form? save the rest for 6.5.2, i would much prefer that.

can u also please point me to where the link is to get the latest beta? is there anything i need to know to install it properly? (anything different from an official release?)

and should i fully uninstall my current SS install totally first? will it forget all my plugins and prefs if i do? (i installed 6.5.0 right on top of 6.3.1 and that made a mess i still have, not sure how best to fix it)

thanks, -mdw

Gregory Hamilton
2006-10-31, 14:36
On 10/31/06, MrSinatra <
MrSinatra.2gk96n1162329001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> based on what was said in the thread, it sounded to me like any
> discussed changes would not fix the issue, but if i'm wrong, np, i'll
> happily eat my words. i guess i'm confused as to how using 6.5.1 would
> matter or make a difference if the problem exists with SN as well.
>
> is there a change to the firmware that actually fixes it with SN?
>
> however, a lot of people don't run beta software, and i TRY to be one
> of them.
>
> if i HAVE TO go to 6.5.1 beta to get this fixed, then i very
> reluctantly will, but how about getting it out there now with such a
> critical fix in an officially released form? save the rest for 6.5.2,
> i would much prefer that.
>
> can u also please point me to where the link is to get the latest beta?
> is there anything i need to know to install it properly? (anything
> different from an official release?)
>
> and should i fully uninstall my current SS install totally first? will
> it forget all my plugins and prefs if i do? (i installed 6.5.0 right on
> top of 6.3.1 and that made a mess i still have, not sure how best to fix
> it)
>
> thanks, -mdw
>
>
> --
> MrSinatra
>
> www.LION-Radio.org
> Using:
> Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.0 - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28392
>
>

ceejay
2006-10-31, 15:42
however, a lot of people don't run beta software, and i TRY to be one of them.

if i HAVE TO go to 6.5.1 beta to get this fixed, then i very reluctantly will, but how about getting it out there now with such a critical fix in an officially released form? save the rest for 6.5.2, i would much prefer that.

can u also please point me to where the link is to get the latest beta? is there anything i need to know to install it properly? (anything different from an official release?)

and should i fully uninstall my current SS install totally first? will it forget all my plugins and prefs if i do? (i installed 6.5.0 right on top of 6.3.1 and that made a mess i still have, not sure how best to fix it)

thanks, -mdw

Mr sinatra

there is perhaps a misunderstanding about the role of the nightly releases - 6.5.1 at the moment. It's a place where small, safe fixes are applied beyond the official release - this is what allows slim to be incredibly responsive to bug fixes and minor enhancements. If they put every "important" fix into a separate formal release, they'd spend all their time regression testing and we'd never get the new stuff!

So don't be shy, have a go at 6.5.1. Its at http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/6.5/

If you are running 6.5.0 at present, the upgrade is straightforward, just stop slimserver and install over the top. don't forget to let it finish any rescan it does before giving it a hard time. Then let the developers know whether things are any better for you...

HTH
Ceejay

MrSinatra
2006-10-31, 16:34
first, thx a lot for taking the time to post all that, very appreciated.

second, i have a minor problem in that i installed 6.5.0 on top of 6.3.1 and its a somewhat messy deal. for instance, some skins don't work, and other annoyences like that.

will installing 6.5.1 beta fix that? or should i uninstall everything i have now to get rid of the mess, and start fresh?

and if i do, do i need to just use add/remove programs, or also manually delete directories? and will i lose my prefs and settings?

thanks again for the help! -mdw

Gregory Hamilton
2006-10-31, 17:57
On 10/31/06, MrSinatra <
MrSinatra.2gkfwb1162337701 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> first, thx a lot for taking the time to post all that, very
> appreciated.
>
> second, i have a minor problem in that i installed 6.5.0 on top of
> 6.3.1 and its a somewhat messy deal. for instance, some skins don't
> work, and other annoyences like that.
>
> will installing 6.5.1 beta fix that? or should i uninstall everything
> i have now to get rid of the mess, and start fresh?
>
> and if i do, do i need to just use add/remove programs, or also
> manually delete directories? and will i lose my prefs and settings?
>
> thanks again for the help! -mdw
>
>
> --
> MrSinatra
>
> www.LION-Radio.org
> Using:
> Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.0 - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28392
>
>

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 02:28
Gregory,

are u aware your posts say nothing in them? they only quote mine? please edit or delete them. thx. -mdw

Ben Sandee
2006-11-01, 06:45
On 11/1/06, MrSinatra <
MrSinatra.2gl7g01162373402 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> are u aware your posts say nothing in them? they only quote mine?
> please edit or delete them. thx. -mdw


You need to look a little closer. He's been giving you good advice and the
content is there.

Ben

azinck3
2006-11-01, 07:38
On 11/1/06, MrSinatra <
MrSinatra.2gl7g01162373402 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> are u aware your posts say nothing in them? they only quote mine?
> please edit or delete them. thx. -mdw


You need to look a little closer. He's been giving you good advice and the
content is there.

Ben

Actually, I'm with MrSinatra on this one...I don't see anything but the quoted text in Gregory's posts on the forums. Maybe a forum/mailing-list difference?

Mark Lanctot
2006-11-01, 07:48
second, i have a minor problem in that i installed 6.5.0 on top of 6.3.1 and its a somewhat messy deal. for instance, some skins don't work, and other annoyences like that.

will installing 6.5.1 beta fix that? or should i uninstall everything i have now to get rid of the mess, and start fresh?

and if i do, do i need to just use add/remove programs, or also manually delete directories? and will i lose my prefs and settings?

Yes, it is best to uninstall 6.3 before installing 6.5. Uninstall, then delete the SlimServer directory. You will lose any settings and plugins (but regarding plugins, 6.3 plugins are not necessarily compatible with 6.5 anyway).

Ben Sandee
2006-11-01, 07:53
On 11/1/06, azinck3 <azinck3.2gllsn1162392001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
> Actually, I'm with MrSinatra on this one...I don't see anything but the
> quoted text in Gregory's posts on the forums. Maybe a
> forum/mailing-list difference?


Yes, apparently so. I'm on the mailing list and Gregory's posts are plainly
visible.

Ben

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 10:02
i'm not on the mailing list. i only see the forum posts. would love it if he or someone would post his replies. thx.

i'm going to try to uninstall and manually delete it all, and then install 6.5.1 fresh. will let you know how it turns out. thx for the help.

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 10:59
Andy,

i now have the clean install of the current 6.5.1 and as i thought, it did nothing to help the problem.

the stream still stutters badly after just a few minutes or even moments.

i tried it both on SS and on SN. same thing.

i have both set to buffer for 5 seconds, (3 is the default), but as far as i can tell, this merely delays the inevitable.

winamp or other programs have no problem playing these streams.

the problem as i see it is that whatever changes are new since sometime after 6.2 have broken the ability of SB to robustly playback shoutcast streams.

while i am for the SB being able to directly establish a connection to the net streams, (so i can reboot without losing the music) i am not for it if it means it doesn't work.

based on what i had read in this thread, it seemed to me that the proposed fixes would not fix anything, they sounded cosmetic to me.

can you please explain to me why SB used to be able to do this, but now can't? listening to these streams is why i got a SB.

if i had to guess, i would guess the SB hardware is simply not up to the task of DIRECT streaming... altho i think SN used to be able to do it previously.

this is why i'm upset, please respond, thanks, -mdw

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 12:21
and as an extra bonus, now it will only play the first 7 seconds or so of my local music, before it restarts it for no reason, or simply stops all together.

azinck3
2006-11-01, 12:48
and as an extra bonus, now it will only play the first 7 seconds or so of my local music, before it restarts it for no reason, or simply stops all together.

What format is your local music in?

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 12:49
normal, unprotected, EAC made 256kbps mp3s.

worked fine with 6.5.0

mherger
2006-11-01, 13:41
> and as an extra bonus, now it will only play the first 7 seconds or so
> of my local music, before it restarts it for no reason, or simply stops
> all together.

Have you ever tried doing a factory reset on your player? Unplug the
player, hold down the ADD button while you plug it in again. Repeat the
configuration. I sometimes experienced similar problems after firmware
upgrades. The factory reset fixed them every time.

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD
http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 13:50
yeah, its my least favorite thing to do with SB.

i did do a "soft reset" where you hold down the power button for a long time.

i hate doing the factory reset b/c it hasn't been as lucky a "fix all" for me but i still have to re-enter the damn wireless wep code and set it all up again the way i want.

but since u suggested it i'll do it to eliminate the possibility, (not that i hold out much hope for it fixing anything).

mherger
2006-11-01, 14:03
> (not that i hold out much hope for it fixing anything).

Then you might want to offer your SB for sale on ebay.

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD
http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 14:06
actually, i just want it fixed in code, since code is clearly at fault, since it all used to work.

mherger
2006-11-01, 14:21
> actually, i just want it fixed in code, since code is clearly at fault,
> since it all used to work.

Please come down. It's still working perfectly well. There are thousands
of SB users out there, perfectly happy. But there's a problem with your
installation. Let's find out what it is. Nothing can be fixed, if nobody
can reproduce your problem.

As kdf mentioned you should contact support at slimdevices dot com.

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD
http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR

Siduhe
2006-11-01, 14:29
actually, i just want it fixed in code, since code is clearly at fault, since it all used to work.

MrS,

I'm afraid I can't contribute directly to your problem with Shoutcast, and I know you've checked for network interference, but I just want to add a recent experience of mine.

Three weeks ago, I started seeing just the same problems as you, drop outs on a previously rock solid network, stuttering audio, etc, etc. I'd also just upgraded my router firmware, so I spent ages trying to roll back and debug. It turned out my upstairs neighbour has got himself a new pre-n router, not broadcasting his SSID and even though it's as far away from my channel as I can get, it's knocking out my signal even though when his network is up, I can't even see it. Luckily there are a few of us affected in our block and he's been "persuaded" to swop out the router for a less aggressive one.

Is there any chance it might not be the code after all ? Does rolling back to 6.3.0. solve your problem or do you still see the same ?

MrSinatra
2006-11-01, 14:43
couple of quick replies...

1. i'll happily eat my words on the factory reset thing, doing that seems to have made it possible for me to play local music again, so it worked in this instance. (at least thats my initial impression. and while i'm happy about that, it shouldn't be required, factory resets should not be a SOP)

2. i still however have a stuttereing stream. both on SS and on SN.

i live in a semi rural area, and i don't think anyone nearby has any wireless that i can see. also, my SB sits about 2 feet from my router, and it shows 100% signal strength.

i haven't upgraded or changed my router in some time btw.

i can't say for sure when the problem started, if it was 6.3 or later... all i know is that it all was working fine recently, now it never works. i assume its b/c of the changes to code. i'm pretty sure its a result of making the SB connect direct to the stream, (done in a firmware upgrade).

MrSinatra
2006-11-11, 21:31
as a follow up, for the last week or so, my problem seems to have stopped.

i am beginning to think it surfaced and has now submerged as a result of adelphia converting to comcast.

however, it has shown a weakness of the paradigm, in that unless conditions are perfect or near perfect, direct streaming to the hardware is not as robust as say to software, (like SS or winamp).

i also still have only seen percents, not seconds, when initiating a stream. i don't see the "buffer fullness display" even tho i picked it for "now playing."

more later...

SoftwireEngineer
2006-11-12, 22:49
I've had connectivity problems with SB3 Firmware 6x with Slimserver version 6.5.x. I see the buffer does not get filled up in time. My wireless strength is around 50% and I play flac files. I have reverted to 6.3 and firmware version 55. No problems now.
(BTW, do you guys think 6.5.1 sounds better ? Maybe, it is just my mind playing tricks)

MrSinatra
2006-11-17, 01:06
i was mostly talking about net streams, not local files.

if flacs are bigger and your wireless connection isn't strong enough, it could be problematic. i don't know how to view buffer fullness (beyond percents), nor did i know u could for local files.

Greg Erskine
2006-11-17, 17:58
Hi MrSinatra,

I don't know if this information will be helpful.

When I use Tune In URL = http://146.186.221.181:8000/ I get stuttering within a minute.

When I tune into other Internet radio stations things work properly.

Now, when I tune into LION Radio 90.7fm Penn State via SHOUTcast Internet Radio it works properly (I listened for about 15 minutes)

regards

MrSinatra
2006-11-17, 21:19
well, there really shouldn't be any difference between 'tuning in directly' and doing so via shoutcast internet radio directory.

there is only one source for this station, 3 machines (one per bitrate stream) that put it on the net. i know b/c i admin the three machines. we don't relay to anyone else.

the shoutcast dir refers to these 3 machines.

so, i can't explain ur results, BUT maybe SS wouldn't let the SB 'take over' from slim server to get the stream directly as quick (or at all) when going thru via the shoutcast dir to tune in, (as opposed to directly tuning in).

Greg Erskine
2006-11-18, 14:22
hi MrSinatra,

I just redid my tests and confirmed my results. SHOUTcast works.

Have you tried using SHOUTcast? Does it work for you?

BTW: I enjoyed listening to Cootie Brown's funky jazz, excellent.

regards
Greg

MrSinatra
2006-11-18, 14:37
i use shoutcast 1.9.7 to put the lion on the air. shoutcast is the server program.

when u say you use shoutcast to tune in, what exactly do you mean? u use winamp to listen? u use the shoutcast directory in winamp? or you use the shoutcast website to get to it?

or do u mean that you use the shoutcast dir in SS?

i don't know why it would be any different, unless the winamp dsp relays automatically to a shoutcast server at shoutcast.com but i really don't think that's it.

i think u are just using another way, or link, to get to my servers at PSU.

i can't explain why it works for you via the sc link, and not directly. that baffles me.

bobharp
2006-11-18, 15:04
A number of my internet streams seem to have started stuttering today. I will try updating tomorrow. Some stations sound great most stutter. Just started after being rock solid. Seems like an internet issue but better local buffering sould fix it. I like having fullness in my buffer.
Running..
SlimServer Version: 6.5.0 - 9916 - Debian - EN - iso-8859-1

Greg Erskine
2006-11-19, 04:35
when u say you use shoutcast to tune in, what exactly do you mean? u use winamp to listen? u use the shoutcast directory in winamp? or you use the shoutcast website to get to it?

or do u mean that you use the shoutcast dir in SS?

Hi MrSinatra,

On Slimserver "Home" page, I select "SHOUTcast Internet Radio", seventh option under "INTERNET RADIO". Then I type "LION" in the search field and click "Search". The fifth match is "LION Radio 90.7fm Penn State". I clicked on that and it worked for me two times when using the "Tune in URL" didn't.

I doesn't make any sense to me either.

Scardeville
2006-11-19, 07:07
Hi MrSinatra,

On Slimserver "Home" page, I select "SHOUTcast Internet Radio", seventh option under "INTERNET RADIO". Then I type "LION" in the search field and click "Search". The fifth match is "LION Radio 90.7fm Penn State". I clicked on that and it worked for me two times when using the "Tune in URL" didn't.

I doesn't make any sense to me either.

I've been experiencing the same troubles and I thought you'd found a silver bullet here -- my usually rock solid stream, Otto's Baroque (http://64.62.253.223:9030), was stuttering badly today after only 5-10 seconds. When this happens I've taken to pausing the stream for about ten seconds and it seems to fix it, at least for up to a few hours. But no go this morning. So I tried this and it worked -- for about 2 minutes, and then it stuttered just as badly as before.

I'd originally put this problem down to some kind of flow control being used by my cable internet provider. But why it should only happen on some streams and not others doesn't necessarily fit with that diagnosis. It also doesn't fit the fact that I can listen to the same stream in Windows Media Player without any difficulty.

bobharp
2006-11-19, 13:23
Well after attempting to update to the latest testing release (deb http://debian.slimdevices.com testing main) and having my SB2s lock up I went back to the stable release. They would power on after the firmware update but would not respond to other remote control commands.
Tried:
SlimServer Version: 6.5.1 - 10724 - Debian - EN - utf8

No back at:
SlimServer Version: 6.5.0 - 9916 - Debian - EN - utf8

I bumped up my RADIO STATION BUFFER SECONDS to 20. I will try that for a while.

MrSinatra
2006-11-20, 15:10
i'm thinking something else is at play...

first of all, i don't see how tuning in directly vs navigating thru the SS shoutcast pages would make any difference at all. the source is the same, so maybe it just happened that the route was better for some reason, but my guess is its all just strange coincidence.

however, what really isn't explained is how winamp can play the same streams rock solid, while SS can't. if the problem is an isp one, and i tend to think it is, why is SS affected but winamp isn't?

i tend to think it goes beyond the buffer, b/c the buffer only covers short patches. when my isp was bad, big SS buffers didn't help a thing.

bpa
2006-11-20, 15:45
I have a theory and it relates to TCP data acknowledgement. Can you test the following.

Do you get stuttering when playing using slimserver and then does the stuttering go away if you uncheck the "built-in" filetypes option for whatever protocol your stream is using.

MrSinatra
2006-11-20, 18:05
i hope someone still having a problem does, b/c i think ur on to something... to me, this is something about transport, not buffering. fortunately for me, but unfortunately for this thread, i am no longer having a stuttering problem, so i can't help directly for testing purposes.

bobharp
2006-11-21, 08:50
I will check on this possibly tonight or tomorrow. Where is the "built-in" filetypes check box (not at home now)?

Bob

bpa
2006-11-21, 09:11
Under Server Settings/ File Types

There is a separate "built-in" check box for MP3, WAV, Ogg and WMA.

bobharp
2006-11-22, 15:27
Alas, there has been no stuttering today. I will keep an ear out. Is there a bug # for this? A quick search did not turn up anything.

Scardeville
2006-11-22, 19:24
No stuttering here for two days either. But I'm ready to pounce if it does!

bobharp
2006-11-24, 16:21
Stutter came back. Otto's is an MP3 stream.
Changed "Home / Server Settings / File Types"
FILE FORMAT CONVERSION SETUP
Un-checked MP3.
Stutter went away.
Re-checked to see if it will come back.

MrSinatra
2006-11-29, 11:31
i got strange stuttering yesterday ~5pm for a couple of hours...

the seconds dropped to zero and eventually it would try to restart the stream, but that didn't do much good, it would start stuttering again within a few moments.

this was a tad different, as the stuttering seemed faster than b4, and had multiple "screeches" like a digital needle dragged across a digital record.

the problem is it continues today, and yet again, winamp has no problem.

comcast issue? maybe. but i think the SB should be as robust as any other working mass pop solution.

as discussed in this thread, i'm starting to think this is a tcp handling issue on SB's part.

i did uncheck "mp3" and clicked change. upon restarting the stream, it seemed to be playing fine, but only for a short while longer than before, when it was checked.

i guess i'm confused about what "filetypes" does...? i would have intuitively thought that unchecking mp3 would deactivate the ability to play mp3 streams, but apparently this is wrong and file types serves some other function i am unaware of.

MrSinatra
2006-11-30, 14:52
the 32kbps stream stutters today, the 96 and 128 ones when attempted, confound and confuse my SB, which eventually turns itself off. same with the 32 sometimes as well.

this "here and gone again" but mostly here problem, which never affects winamp, is really starting to annoy.

checking or unchecking seems to have little effect.

bpa
2006-11-30, 15:41
The "built-in" option in filetypes means whether the decoding of the stream is done within the PC (built-in unchecked) or within the SB (built-in check).

In 6.3 Slimserver acted as a proxy for all streams - receiving data from a source and then relaying it to the SB. Whether the PC decoded/transcoded depended on the received format and whether the relevant "built-in" for the format was checked. So the PC will either just relay packets to SB or decode/transcode and then retransmit packets to SB
In 6.5 when "built-in" is checked, the slimserver checks the sources URL and then gets the SB to set up a direct connection to the source - slimserver is no longer a proxy. If "built-in" is unchecked, the slimserver will decode the stream and then pass on the data in another format (e.g. flac). So "unchecked " in 6.5. is close to 6.3 in terms of how data packets are sent and acknowledged.

If the 6.5. stuttering was purely due to SB buffering, then unchecking "built-in" will make the Slimserver process the data buffering, validating the stream and then the SB would also have a solid datastream just from PC to SB and not from the internet source. The fact that you get stuttering with "6.5 & built-in unchecked" means that the source/network just cannot provide a reliable stream of packets to the PC to match the audio playback requirements.

The fact that Winamp can play without no problems simultaneously is interesting - it would be worthwhile checking the HTTP headers & protocol on the Winamp stream to ensure that Winamp hasn't downgraded the stream speed in some way if it has problems - I know RealAudio servers can initiate this behaviour.

MrSinatra
2006-12-16, 02:22
The "built-in" option in filetypes means whether the decoding of the stream is done within the PC (built-in unchecked) or within the SB (built-in check).

In 6.3 Slimserver acted as a proxy for all streams - receiving data from a source and then relaying it to the SB. Whether the PC decoded/transcoded depended on the received format and whether the relevant "built-in" for the format was checked. So the PC will either just relay packets to SB or decode/transcode and then retransmit packets to SB
In 6.5 when "built-in" is checked, the slimserver checks the sources URL and then gets the SB to set up a direct connection to the source - slimserver is no longer a proxy. If "built-in" is unchecked, the slimserver will decode the stream and then pass on the data in another format (e.g. flac). So "unchecked " in 6.5. is close to 6.3 in terms of how data packets are sent and acknowledged.

If the 6.5. stuttering was purely due to SB buffering, then unchecking "built-in" will make the Slimserver process the data buffering, validating the stream and then the SB would also have a solid datastream just from PC to SB and not from the internet source. The fact that you get stuttering with "6.5 & built-in unchecked" means that the source/network just cannot provide a reliable stream of packets to the PC to match the audio playback requirements.

The fact that Winamp can play without no problems simultaneously is interesting - it would be worthwhile checking the HTTP headers & protocol on the Winamp stream to ensure that Winamp hasn't downgraded the stream speed in some way if it has problems - I know RealAudio servers can initiate this behaviour.

bpa,

u continue to impress with your knowledge...

however, i don't see any indication that winamp is somehow degrading the shoutcast streams.

also, i can run TWO instances of the 128 lion stream on the PC, and i can't even get the 32 to play right on the SB. and yes, i make sure nothing else is actively using the router when i try to listen via SB.

its gotten to the point where i think SD simply has chosen to believe its not their product when i am fairly certain it is.

i am considering putting 6.2 or 6.3 back on to prove it. but i'm afraid if i do that, they'll still find some way to blame my setup or my network.