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Nostromo
2006-10-06, 12:13
I'm in the process of ripping my CD's in FLAC. I'm not quite sure yet what categories to use. I want to keep it as simple as possible and as functional as possible. I also want to use them for dynamic playlists.

Here are some categories I'm playing with.

- Chanson (francophone songs) (I'll probably also use the "franco" genre for those francophone rock songs that aren't chanson in the strict sense.)

- Jazz

- Actual

- Classical; Baroque
- Classical; Classical
- Classical; Romantic
- Classical; modern

(Don't know yet if I'll add "Quartet" or "Piano" in the "genre" or in the "comment" tag field. I'd like to build dynamic playlists with only string quartets or only piano.)

- Drum and bass
- Electronica
- House
- IDM
- Techno
- Progressive
- Electro
- Ambient

(Don't know yet if I'll use "chill out" as a genre or put it instead in the "comment" tag field.)

- Rock
- Alternative rock (includes punk, post-punk, gothic, indie...)

- Rythm and blues

- Hip hop

Nostromo
2006-10-06, 12:37
Mmmm... When I browse my albums, I noticed that the albums I classified in mutiple genres, like "Classical; modern" for example, can only be seen in the "Classical; modern" genre. I would have thought that it would be in the "Classical" and "modern" genres.

Richie
2006-10-06, 12:52
> Mmmm... When I browse my albums, I noticed that the albums I classified
> in mutiple genres, like "Classical; modern" for example, can only be
> seen in the "Classical; modern" genre. I would have thought that it
> would be in the "Classical" and "modern" genres.

Did you enter the ; character on the Server Settings / Behavior /
MULTIPLE ITEMS IN TAGS field?

Richard

Richie
2006-10-06, 12:56
On 06/10/06, Richie <gibbering.idiot (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> > Mmmm... When I browse my albums, I noticed that the albums I classified
> > in mutiple genres, like "Classical; modern" for example, can only be
> > seen in the "Classical; modern" genre. I would have thought that it
> > would be in the "Classical" and "modern" genres.
>
> Did you enter the ; character on the Server Settings / Behavior /
> MULTIPLE ITEMS IN TAGS field?
>
> Richard
>

Oops, I didn't notice you were using FLAC. Whilst the above should
work, FLAC does support the use of multiple genre tags.

Richard

kaen
2006-10-06, 13:11
i dont use genres, i find find them pretty useless, i divide my folders like this

!! - #0to9
!! - various
a - d
e - h
i - l
m - p
q - t
u - w
x - z

each artist has its own folder and within those folders are albums by that artist.

example:

/a - d/arovane/arovane - atol scrap/
00. arovane - atol scrap.jpg
01. arovane - nonlin.r.mp3
02. arovane - tascel_7.mp3
03. arovane - thaem nue.mp3
etc etc..

filename format: track#. artist - title.mp3

id3 v1+2 all in lowercase

well, it works for me :)

Nostromo
2006-10-06, 13:26
> Mmmm... When I browse my albums, I noticed that the albums I classified
> in mutiple genres, like "Classical; modern" for example, can only be
> seen in the "Classical; modern" genre. I would have thought that it
> would be in the "Classical" and "modern" genres.

Did you enter the ; character on the Server Settings / Behavior /
MULTIPLE ITEMS IN TAGS field?

Richard

Ah, I see. Thanks! Now it works.

azinck3
2006-10-06, 13:35
i dont use genres, i find find them pretty useless, i divide my folders like this

!! - #0to9
!! - various
a - d
e - h
i - l
m - p
q - t
u - w
x - z

each artist has its own folder and within those folders are albums by that artist.

example:

/a - d/arovane/arovane - atol scrap/
00. arovane - atol scrap.jpg
01. arovane - nonlin.r.mp3
02. arovane - tascel_7.mp3
03. arovane - thaem nue.mp3
etc etc..

filename format: track#. artist - title.mp3

id3 v1+2 all in lowercase

well, it works for me :)

Sounds like you're missing out on the beauty of a database! Try tags--you don't have to give up your file structure.

edit: sorry--didn't notice your reference to id3 tags at the bottom

ddewey
2006-10-06, 14:05
Quoting kaen (kaen.2f9vyz1160165701 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com):
>
> id3 v1+2 all in lowercase


ACK! You are hitting my OCD trigger! Can I come over and fix this to
'normal' case? Please?

--
Miss October 3rd? Make every day a Day Against DRM (Digital Restrictions
Management), learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm

ceejay
2006-10-06, 14:57
How do I categorize? Here is a full list of the genres in my library. Liberal use of multiple genre values, especially on the classical...

20thC
Baroque
Blues
Chamber
Choral
Christmas
Classical
Classicalperiod
Comedy
Compositions
Concerto
Dances
Easy
Electronic
Folk
Folk-Rock
Jazz
Latin
Loud
Meditation
Metal
Minimalism
Musical
Overture
Piano
Pop
Progressive Metal
Reggae
Rock
Romantic
Soul
Strings
Symphony
Vocal
Woodwind
World

Ceejay.

kaen
2006-10-06, 15:04
Quoting kaen (kaen.2f9vyz1160165701 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com):
>
> id3 v1+2 all in lowercase


ACK! You are hitting my OCD trigger! Can I come over and fix this to
'normal' case? Please?


you may not, i love lowercase.

chiphart
2006-10-06, 16:12
> How do I categorize? Here is a full list of the genres in my library.

I find that, for genres, I have to use as few as possible because
it's so impossible to properly "categorize" everything.

For example, from your list:

> 20thC
> Chamber

Which of these takes precedence? If someone writes 20th century
Chamber music (and I presume you have a 21stC now...), where do
you put it? Or 20thC Choral?

My goal is to have a very limited set of genres so that I don't
miss something I wanted to listen to because I went down the
wrong path. Worse, once you start to sub-categorize things,
you can play semantic games forever. Is KISS really hard rock?
Or Glam? Or Metal?

--
Chip Hart - Pediatric Solutions * Physician's Computer Company
chip @ pcc.com * 1 Main St. #7, Winooski, VT 05404
800-722-7708 * http://www.pcc.com/~chip
f.802-846-8178 * Pediatric Software Just Got Smarter.
Your Practice Just Got Healthier.

ceejay
2006-10-07, 01:21
>

> 20thC
> Chamber

Which of these takes precedence? If someone writes 20th century
Chamber music (and I presume you have a 21stC now...), where do
you put it? Or 20thC Choral?



thats the whole point - neither takes precedence, I use multiple values.

So ALL of my classical music gets the tag "classical". It also gets one of "baroque", "classicalperiod", "romantic", "20thC".

Except sometimes for crossover work when it might get two of those.

Then its likely to get tagged as one of "symphony", "concerto", "choral" or "chamber".

So a Mozart symphony would be "classical;classicalperiod;symphony" and I can browse under any of those genres and find it. Or a Milhaud sonata might be "classical;20thC;chamber;woodwind".

The important thing for me was to think about how I want to choose music. Obviously if you know what you want to listen to, you just search for it and play it. But often I don't know - but I do feel like listening to something like... a symphony, or choral, or baroque, or piano. This system lets me do that.

Personally I find this works very well, as I get a relatively short list of genres when browsing, but without being constrained by a restrictive classification system.... YMMV!

Ideally, of course, I'd like to be able to do a cascaded browse so that having selected "symphony" I could then further browse by period (or conductor, or whatever)... this is the subject of an enhancement request!

Ceejay

PS - in your example, why not have KISS = "hard rock;glam;metal" and then you can find it under any of those... stop worrying and enjoy the music! :)

)p(
2006-10-07, 02:28
Ideally, of course, I'd like to be able to do a cascaded browse so that having selected "symphony" I could then further browse by period (or conductor, or whatever)... this is the subject of an enhancement request!


I have not had the time to take a better look at it, but Erland's custombrowse plugin might be able to do something like that.

peter

ceejay
2006-10-07, 02:43
I have not had the time to take a better look at it, but Erland's custombrowse plugin might be able to do something like that.

peter

It does, but only (AFAIK) if you are prepared to hard-wire the browse sequence (although you can define several such sequences). As such it is a step forward, but not the fully flexible solution I'd really like.

Ceejay

chiphart
2006-10-07, 05:05
ceejay wrote:
> thats the whole point - neither takes precedence, I use multiple
> values.

Oh, oh, oh. That makes a lot more sense. [Mark that the second
message I've replied to today where I misunderstood someone.]

I've given some thought to multi-tagging genres. I've certainly
done a few hundred artists that way, but have been reluctant
to learn of some unintended consequence and my wife isn't happy
with how much time I've spent tagging already (>20K tracks).

> But often I don't know - but I do feel like
> listening to something like... a symphony, or choral, or baroque, or
> piano. This system lets me do that.

Indeed. The thing I'm always afraid of is feeling like I want
to hear, say, some jazz and I miss seeing Jonas Hellborg or John
McGlaughlin thing because I sub-categorized it poorly. Using
multi-tags would work. OK, John Coltrane is 'jazz' with every
not he ever played...but maybe Sonny Sharrock isn't.

...but do you actually go through every piece by hand? Aren't
there Kronos Quartet albums, for example, that might need a
half-dozen different tags - in addition to "Classical" - on a
track-by-track basis? I see my OCD kicking in.

--
Chip Hart - Pediatric Solutions * Physician's Computer Company
chip @ pcc.com * 1 Main St. #7, Winooski, VT 05404
800-722-7708 * http://www.pcc.com/~chip
f.802-846-8178 * Pediatric Software Just Got Smarter.
Your Practice Just Got Healthier.

ceejay
2006-10-07, 05:24
...but do you actually go through every piece by hand? Aren't
there Kronos Quartet albums, for example, that might need a
half-dozen different tags - in addition to "Classical" - on a
track-by-track basis? I see my OCD kicking in.



Yes.

For new rips of classical music, this is a tiny overhead given the amount of time I take to get the rest of the tags right!

For each piece (or for a whole CD if all the pieces are similar) simply select the tracks in mp3tag and type in a genre string. Done!

My record so far, I think, is 6 values on one piece...

Of course, I'd already ripped most of my music when I decided to go down this route so I did have to retrofit it. It wasn't as bad as you might think: mp3tag will allow you select whole chunks of tracks so you can do them in big batches. And the ones where I had to stop and think about it were very interesting: I found myself listening to bits of tracks I hadn't heard for ages, and looking up composers and pieces in wiki or allmusic.com for more information. It took a weekend and was worth every minute!

Ceejay.

Marc Sherman
2006-10-07, 06:39
ceejay wrote:
>
> So ALL of my classical music gets the tag "classical". It also gets
> one of "baroque", "classicalperiod", "romantic", "20thC".
>
> Except sometimes for crossover work when it might get two of those.
>
> Then its likely to get tagged as one of "symphony", "concerto",
> "choral" or "chamber".
>
> So a Mozart symphony would be "classical;classicalperiod;symphony" and
> I can browse under any of those genres and find it. Or a Milhaud sonata
> might be "classical;20thC;chamber;woodwind".

What do you do with Philip Glass? His work is currently tagged
"Classical;Avant Garde" in my collection (mostly -- the Low and 'Heroes'
symphonies add "...;Glam;Eno", and the soundtracks add
"...;Soundtrack"), but it just feels weird tagging music composed in my
lifetime as "classical". Is there another word for describing serious
music written in the modern era?

- Marc

ceejay
2006-10-07, 06:55
Well, I haven't got any, but if I did I'm sure I'd categorize it as "Classical;20thC". I can see that AvantGarde might be a useful value if I had much of that sort of thing.

The distinction between Classical and non-classical is *mostly* clear... and isn't, in my mind at least, just a question of period. I mainly struggle when it comes to modern choral works such as those of Richard Allain.

But at least the benefit of multi-value genre tagging is that you don't have to worry for long - if in doubt just give it multiple values and let it go!

Ceejay

chiphart
2006-10-07, 20:00
ceejay wrote:
> For each piece (or for a whole CD if all the pieces are similar) simply
> select the tracks in mp3tag and type in a genre string. Done!
> My record so far, I think, is 6 values on one piece...

I've got 20K tracks, 20% of which (I bet) could be properly
multi-genre'd.

> And the ones where I had to stop and think
> about it were very interesting: I found myself listening to bits of
> tracks I hadn't heard for ages, and looking up composers and pieces in
> wiki or allmusic.com for more information. It took a weekend and was
> worth every minute!

1) I believe you, and that sounds like an awesome and
interesting pre-children project :-)

2) One weekend? My God, it would take me months. 2004 was
already known as the "Great CD Ripping Year" and is not to be
repeated, mild as it was.

--
Chip Hart - Pediatric Solutions * Physician's Computer Company
chip @ pcc.com * 1 Main St. #7, Winooski, VT 05404
800-722-7708 * http://www.pcc.com/~chip
f.802-846-8178 * Pediatric Software Just Got Smarter.
Your Practice Just Got Healthier.

Nostromo
2006-10-07, 20:43
What do you do with Philip Glass? His work is currently tagged
"Classical;Avant Garde" in my collection (mostly -- the Low and 'Heroes'
symphonies add "...;Glam;Eno", and the soundtracks add
"...;Soundtrack"), but it just feels weird tagging music composed in my
lifetime as "classical". Is there another word for describing serious
music written in the modern era?

I would tag him as "classical;contemporary". A term people use often to describe contemporary classical music is "contemporary music". And I would use "classical; modern" for composers such as Stravinsky or Bartok. I think I would even use "classical; modern" for neoclassical stuff.

ceejay
2006-10-08, 00:50
1) I believe you, and that sounds like an awesome and
interesting pre-children project :-)

2) One weekend? My God, it would take me months. 2004 was
already known as the "Great CD Ripping Year" and is not to be
repeated, mild as it was.



(1) Well, more like post-children in my case!

(2) You'd be surprised how quickly you can work through these if you put your mind to it, using mp3tag and its filter and sort capabilities, especially if your music is consistently tagged in the first place. You can also use its regular expression capabilities to write scripts to add a value to a multi-valued tag, which can be helpful. I'll bet you could cover 90% of almost any classical collection in a weekend...

Ceejay

Nostromo
2006-10-10, 13:42
I tried 6.5.1 and it went horribly bad. Slimserver wouldn't even start anymore. So I reverted to 6.5.0. Now, it works OK, except for multiple genres. They don't seem to work anymore, even though I told Slimserver to consider tags with semi-colons as multiple genres.

ceejay
2006-10-10, 13:59
If 6.5.1 wouldn't start that may be because of plugin problems (there have been some issues with some versions of plugins crashng slimserver). Before you leap to the conclusion that its slimserver's fault, try eliminating plugins, or look at the error log while starting up.

Multiple genres with a ; delimiter worked for me in 6.5.0 and the 6.5.1 I am using now, so some more investigation may be called for...

Don't forget to do a full clear and rescan of your library...

HTH
Ceejay

Nostromo
2006-10-10, 14:08
I didn't install any extra plugins. Not yet. I'm waiting for Slimdevice to fix 6.5.0's annoying bugs. I know, I'm not sure that 6.5.1 is the culprit. But I don't have the time to identify what, exactly, is wrong. So I flushed it.

I finally fixed the problem. I simply had to remove the space between the semi-colon and the genre. "Chanson;francophone" instead of "Chanson; francophone". I don't understand why's that, since it worked well before.

tommypeters
2006-10-12, 13:00
> Mmmm... When I browse my albums, I noticed that the albums I classified
> in mutiple genres, like "Classical; modern" for example, can only be
> seen in the "Classical; modern" genre. I would have thought that it
> would be in the "Classical" and "modern" genres.

Did you enter the ; character on the Server Settings / Behavior /
MULTIPLE ITEMS IN TAGS field?

Richard
I have the same problem, and an additional question:

* I'm running SS 6.3.1 on a Synology DS-106 (using the latest version of SSODS, but this doesn't seem SSODS/Synology related).

* The install on that disk is a fresh install, I use FLAC and everything is tagged.

* My intention has been to use multiple genre tags, so I immediately entered the ; character in the "Multiple Items in Tags" field. Music that can interest my wife has gotten an extra "wife" tag, so I have (for instance) an ambient;wife genre tag. I don't know if it's significant that I don't have a space before or after the semicolon?

* Yesterday I ordered a complete rescan, the first scan on the NAS. Today it didn't say the rescan was completed, but on the other hand when I ran SlimServer on my PC it always said it was scanning indefinetely (on my PC I never tried multiple tags, so I can't compare experiences with that). When I'm browsing around it anyway looks like everything is indexed in the database.

* But - when I Browse Genre I see the composite genre tags ambient;wife and similar untouched. There are several albums under the wife tag, but only a few of the total combined genre tags. Should really the composite tags be shown here? Any ideas why some are resolved and some not?

* Any ides why I never get a "Scan Completed" type of message? Do you normally get one?

* Why isn't there a "Search Genre" in the standard browser? Is it possible to configure it to add that menu alternative/functionality?

* Other comments?

ceejay
2006-10-12, 14:54
tommypeters: If the multiple-genre bit is working properly for you, there should not be any "ambient;wife" genres showing up in the genre list.

I don't know why some would be split and others not, unless you perhaps look very carefully at the tags and try to spot a difference (somebeody reported an issue if there is a stray space in there).

Only one other thing - I know you said you'd rescanned, but you might want to try a clear and full rescan again.

I'm not sure what a Search Genre would do for you? There's a Browse Genre, which should show you all your genres: and you can specify Genre in the Advanced Search. What else are you looking for?

HTH
Ceejay

tommypeters
2006-10-13, 00:49
Thanks for your answer. I have started a "just-in-case" complete rescan again, something might have gone wrong the previous time...

Regarding browsing/searching I'm (for now) only talking about using the remote.
I want to simplify as much as possible for my wife, and it's easier (especially faster) for her to search for a specific artist than to browse through our large common library. So I thought I should have search for genres as well, but there maybe browse is better for genres. I'm not at home now, so I can't test, but can you press a button to get the first letter and then browse from there?

Best would be a filter functionality, so that nothing that doesn't have the "wife" tag shows up on that SB. Haven't seen that functionality in the standard browser, is it to be found in any custom browsers (like Erland's)?

Since I don't seem to "get back" from my rescans it indicates the rescan crashes somewhere. Is there any logfile one could check for info, any debug parameter to set to get more? Almost everything is FLAC, a small minority MP3, everything is tagged with the same program, and the .m3u file is created by that. All .cue files are "hidden" stashed in .RAR files together with my log files and other info.

Is there a way to know with which files the scanning starts and how it continues? I can't directly see that anything is missing in the scan, but knowing how the order is determined would help greatly to check if and where a rescan stops.

gutted
2006-10-13, 04:32
Multiple genre tags. I can't believe I'd never considered this before now. My music library is based solely on individual tags and it's been a nightmare to go through each track by hand and try to slot it into an appropriate genre.

Hah! My life would have been so much easier had I thought of using multiple tags!

I read this thread with great interest, and am grateful for the ideas it's given me :)

And may I say - the "wife" tag is a stroke of genius and I may have to implement that here, too :) :)

EDIT: do you use trackstat plugin? I undesetand this can cause problems in 6.5 rescans, and can cause a crash during the scan. If you use it, try disabling it and then rescan.

tommypeters
2006-10-13, 04:56
No, and I use 6.3.1 since the memory usage with 6.5 is said to be a tad high for the 64MB in the Synology DS-106.

gutted
2006-10-13, 05:09
Apologies - I should have read this thread in more detail, as I'm sure you will have already mentioned that </embarrassed>. I got kind of excited by the idea of multiple genre tags and skipped a lot of the other stuff!

Regarding multiple tags... If I have a multiple tag like "House;Mainstream" will that then mean that I will see both "House" and "Mainstream" listed separately when I browse genres?

tommypeters
2006-10-13, 05:17
Yes, if you have the ; character set in the "Server Settings / Behavior / Multiple Items in Tags" field. For me it works for some, not all. But I will see if the rescan has done wonders when I come home...

probedb
2006-10-13, 06:43
To be honest I've never paid any attention to genres as I never use the tag for anything. I just let whatever freedb or whatever sends down fill the tag...unless I notice it's totally wrong then I'll alter it :)

Khuli
2006-10-13, 07:54
I use some tags quite often. I've currently got about 50 tags (mostly because that's how they got ripped, not because I chose them), but want to get it down to a more useable 10-15.

The biggest challenge is what to call stuff that's not quite Pop or Rock.. e.g. Bjork, Kate Bush etc

Nostromo
2006-10-13, 10:05
I would put Bjork in electronica

bklaas
2006-10-13, 11:51
the first thing I ask myself when listening to music is "What am I in the mood for?" I'm guessing I'm not the only one...

to that end, my music collection is divided by genres, mostly of my own invention, at the top level:

80s (e.g., INXS, B52s, Devo)
downbeat_grooves (e.g., Massive Attack, Thievery Corporation, Zero 7)
electronica_and_dance (e.g., Bjork, Gorillaz, Basement Jaxx)
jazz (e.g, Sade, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk)
latin_influenced (e.g., Orishas, Calexico, Cafe Tacuba)
loud (e.g., Tegan & Sara, System of a Down, Everclear)
new_additions (everything gets dropped here until I've backed it up to CD/DVD)
not_easily_classified (e.g., Talking Heads, Ali Farka Toure, Movie Soundtracks)
rap_hip_hop_funk (e.g. Fugees, MC Solaar, The Streets)
soft (e.g., Emiliana Torrini, Sia, Kings of Convenience)
twang (e.g., Uncle Tupelo, Neko Case, Chris Isaak)

amazingly, this has scaled pretty well. I have a bit more than 1000 albums now, and don't find any of these categories too difficult to manage, at least not yet. not_easily_classified is a catch-all for anything that doesn't fit elsewhere.

I never browse by ID3 Genre tags...too confusing to keep all of 'em straight and consistent. I browse by music folder instead, which pretty much accomplishes that goal with my organization.

Works for me. YMMV.

cheers,
#!/ben