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erland
2006-09-25, 22:35
I'm looking for ideas of new type of browse menus to include with the Custom Browse plugin. So I would like to get some ideas of different ways you would like to browse your music that is not possible with the current version of slimserver.

Try to include a menu hierarchy example in your idea to make it easier to understand how you would like it to work, for example:

Genres
- (List of genres)
-- (List of artists within the selected genre)
--- (List of albums for selected artist within selected genre)
---- (List of tracks on selected album, artist and genre)

So how would you like to browse your music ?

bernt
2006-09-26, 00:29
Genres
- (List of genres)
-- (List of artists within the selected genre)
--- (List of albums sorted by year for selected artist within selected genre)
---- (List of tracks on selected album, artist and genre)

No need for displaying year, just sort by year,

gusi
2006-09-26, 01:01
I think it would be useful to be able to combine searching and browsing.

Specially in Jazz the artist name is not at as meaningful as in rock. Many artist name tags might be:
Oscar Peterson Trio
Oscar Peterson and Ben Webster
Duke Ellington and Oscar Peterson
etc etc

It would then be useful to be able to browse the resultset of a search of artist names containing "Oscar Peterson".

Similarly it would be handy to be able to browse the resultset of two genres. eg browse through bop and hard bop or reggae and dub.

I think the problem arises due to the limitation of tagging. It would be useful if a track could have many genre and artist tags. Of course it could be that I haven't tagged my music correctly.

Dr Lovegrove
2006-09-26, 02:20
On 26/09/06, gusi <gusi.2eqfib1159257901 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> I think it would be useful to be able to combine searching and
> browsing.
>
> Specially in Jazz the artist name is not at as meaningful as in rock.
> Many artist name tags might be:
> Oscar Peterson Trio
> Oscar Peterson and Ben Webster
> Duke Ellington and Oscar Peterson
> etc etc
>
> It would then be useful to be able to browse the resultset of a search
> of artist names containing "Oscar Peterson".

I always thought an interesting plugin to write would be a 'related artist'
search which searches for any of the words in the currently playing artist's
artist/composer/band/etc and offers them as a list. You could maybe have
a dictionary of common words to ignore too.. And sort the list by number
of matching words..

--
- Dr Lovegrove
Free Moose for all at:
http://www.rusticrhino.com/drlovegrove

smc2911
2006-09-26, 03:02
I think the problem arises due to the limitation of tagging. It would be useful if a track could have many genre and artist tags. Of course it could be that I haven't tagged my music correctly.Slimserver does allow a fudge for multiple genres: under Server Settings > Behavior enter a character under Multiple Items In Tags, say ;, and then you can enter "Reggae;Dub" as the genre and Slimserver will create two genre entries.

gusi
2006-09-26, 03:13
A bandmembers or musicians tag(s) would be useful.
I'd hate to type them all in though. Do they exist in any of the internet databases? I have only used EAC/FreeDB thus far.

gerph
2006-09-26, 05:04
A bandmembers or musicians tag(s) would be useful.
I'd hate to type them all in though. Do they exist in any of the internet databases? I have only used EAC/FreeDB thus far.

Related artists and members of groups are available at a few sites; http://www.allmusic.com/ provides a reasonable collection, but I've seen quite a number of people question its accuracy, etc. Also, querying allmusic is a matter of page scraping which really isn't all that fun (or reliable).

In the past I've uesd the 'mood' information from the allmusic site to create a whole new menu within SlimServer for browsing by the moods. However, the moods it provides are per-artist, not per track, and so whilst they might seem descriptive on the face of it, when taken as a whole within the context of a reasonable sized music collection they're not all that useful. http://gerph.org/diary/2006/diary-aug.html#10_Aug_2006 has more information about the experiment. However, that's not quite related to what was being asked about.

I had, a little while back, toyed with the idea of a plugin that let you traverse artist relations; so you could go to an artist and see a menu of the members, and from there you could go to groups that they have been in, and from there to the members of that group, and the groups they've been in, etc. Or the same for the 'similar groups'. I came to the conclusion that the best way to do it would be to write a special server to provide the relational information, rather than to put the information either into every file as an ID3v2 frame, or within the local directory structure. Then I went and did something else.

Marc Sherman
2006-09-26, 06:06
erland wrote:
> I'm looking for ideas of new type of browse menus to include with the
> Custom Browse plugin. So I would like to get some ideas of different
> ways you would like to browse your music that is not possible with the
> current version of slimserver.
>
> Try to include a menu hierarchy example in your idea to make it easier
> to understand how you would like it to work, for example:
>
> Genres
> - (List of genres)
> -- (List of artists within the selected genre)
> --- (List of albums for selected artist within selected genre)
> ---- (List of tracks on selected album, artist and genre)
>
> So how would you like to browse your music ?

Here's what I want to see -- I'd like to be able to partition my
collection with pre-defined genre filters. The filters would be
configurable in the web-UI, preferably with an array of tri-states (ie:
each genere can be included or excluded, not just included like in the
Random Mix). Each filter would have a configurable title (which is how
it would show up in the browse tree).

For bonus points, add a Random Mix feature for each Genre filter.

For _even more_ bonus points, somehow make it so that each of those
Random Mix features can be optionally assigned a shortcut on the remote,
say Hold N (where N is one of the number keys).

Filtered Trees
- My Music (Rock,Pop,Funk,New Wave,Indy,Avant-Garde,!Bonus)
-- (List of artists who match the genre filter)
--- (List of albums for selected genre filter/artist, sorted by year)
---- (List of tracks for selected genre filter/artist/album)
-- Random Album Mix in My Music (Hold 1)
-- Random Song Mix in My Music
- Wifes Music (Folk,Hiphop,Pop,Indy,!LPD,!Bonus)
-- (List of artists who match the genre filter)
--- (List of albums for selected genre filter/artist, sorted by year)
---- (List of tracks for selected genre filter/artist/album)
-- Random Album Mix in Wifes Music (Hold 2)
-- Random Song Mix in Wifes Music
- Kids Music (Childrens,!Bonus)
-- (List of artists who match the genre filter)
--- (List of albums for selected genre filter/artist, sorted by year)
---- (List of tracks for selected genre filter/artist/album)
-- Random Album Mix in Kids Music (Hold 3)
-- Random Song Mix in Kids Music
- Lullabies (Lullaby,!Bonus)
-- (List of artists who match the genre filter)
--- (List of albums for selected genre filter/artist, sorted by year)
---- (List of tracks for selected genre filter/artist/album)
-- Random Album Mix in Lullabies (Hold 4)
-- Random Song Mix in Lullabies
- Bonus Tracks (Bonus)
-- (List of artists who match the genre filter)
--- (List of albums for selected genre filter/artist, sorted by year)
---- (List of tracks for selected genre filter/artist/album)
-- Random Album Mix in Bonus Tracks
-- Random Song Mix in Bonus Tracks

What do you think about that?

radish
2006-09-26, 07:16
I'd like Browse Artists to be split into Compilations and Artist Albums, so:

-- Albums
----Artist Albums
------(all albums with a single artist, or with album artist set)
----Compilations
------(all albums identified as Various Artists either by inference or the compilation tag)

gusi
2006-09-26, 07:19
Marc, Why would you need the !filter, do you multiple genres assigned to each track? A nice idea to be able to browse through named preset filters.

Gerph, I guess we'll just have to wait till fixed media becomes more popular, I am sure the band information mustcome online at some point. For jazz I often get the feeling that there are only 50 or so artists that show up on the recordings in a given year. (Or I'll need to work on my collection)

Verve is bringing its back catalogue online http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/series.aspx?sid=26&ob=bf&src=vault.
Hopefully it will be thoroughly tagged. Alas we can't buy them outside the US as yet.

JJZolx
2006-09-26, 08:22
I'm looking for ideas of new type of browse menus to include with the Custom Browse plugin. So I would like to get some ideas of different ways you would like to browse your music that is not possible with the current version of slimserver.

Try to include a menu hierarchy example in your idea to make it easier to understand how you would like it to work
Genres
- List of genres, ignore itemsperpage
-- Albums within genre, sorted by artist, year
--- Tracks within album

Years
- List of years, sorted in DESCENDING order, ignore itemsperpage
-- Albums within year, sorted by artist
--- Tracks within album

The key is the ability to select a hierarchy and a unique sort order (unlike the current sorting implementation) within the hierarchy.

I've been playing with CustomBrowse and like it, but editing the XML files to modify the behavior obviously isn't ideal. If you could create a user interface for designing a hierarchy and sort order, then that would be tits.

Also, I'd love to have the ability to put a custom browse up on the home menu, rather than needing to go through another menu layer. Any chance this could become a core part of SlimServer's interface, rather than a plugin?

A couple of other points:

In the gallery view of albums, you should display artist and year with the album name.

Until the browse paging and alphapagebar are fixed, all browsing that uses the alphapagebar is of limited use at best. IMO, this is really a critical bug right now.

Marc Sherman
2006-09-26, 08:28
gusi wrote:
> Marc, Why would you need the !filter, do you multiple genres assigned to
> each track? A nice idea to be able to browse through named preset
> filters.

Yes, this has been discussed in detail in the past on this list, when
the original Random Mix plugin was being developed. For example,
consider the Ryko release of Ziggy Stardust. Most of the album is tagged
(in my collection) with the genre tag "Rock;Glam". The bonus tracks at
the end of the album are tagged "Rock;Glam;Bonus". I don't want the
bonus tracks to show up in my regular browsing, hence the "!Bonus" in
the filter.

- Marc

Marc Sherman
2006-09-26, 08:31
JJZolx wrote:
>
> Until the browse paging and alphapagebar are fixed, all browsing that
> uses the alphapagebar is of limited use at best. IMO, this is really a
> critical bug right now.

What's wrong with alphapagebar? Is there a bug number?

- Marc

JJZolx
2006-09-26, 08:42
JJZolx wrote:
>
> Until the browse paging and alphapagebar are fixed, all browsing that
> uses the alphapagebar is of limited use at best. IMO, this is really a
> critical bug right now.

What's wrong with alphapagebar? Is there a bug number?
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3255

I forget sometimes... apparently the current issues don't affect everyone. Enough people have reported it on their systems that it seems to be fairly common, however.

pfarrell
2006-09-26, 08:46
Dr Lovegrove wrote:
>> Specially in Jazz the artist name is not at as meaningful as in rock.
>> Many artist name tags might be:
>> Oscar Peterson Trio
>> Oscar Peterson and Ben Webster
>> Duke Ellington and Oscar Peterson
>> etc etc
>>
>> It would then be useful to be able to browse the resultset of a search
>> of artist names containing "Oscar Peterson".
>
> I always thought an interesting plugin to write would be a 'related artist'
> search which searches for any of the words in the currently playing
> artist's

More that related artists (or even what AllMusic has with 'influenced
by) is just a listing of musicians on the track.
In Jazz, if you hear a great guitar part on an album of Saxophone, I
want to know who the guitarist is. And what albums s/he is on.
And listen to them, or buy them.

I could also see this for types of classical. Say you are listening to
Muti and the Philly Symph Orch doing a standard repertoire piece, say
Beethoven's Eroica, it would be great to be able to see both which
other conductors led the PSO on this, and which other orchestras had
recorded this with Muti

Now that 6.5 has MySql, it is fairly easy to add this, as long as we can
beat the scanner into not breaking the database. There can be critical
information that is not in the tags of the music.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

gusi
2006-09-26, 09:38
gusi wrote:[color=blue]
Yes, this has been discussed in detail in the past on this list, when
the original Random Mix plugin was being developed. For example,
consider the Ryko release of Ziggy Stardust. Most of the album is tagged
(in my collection) with the genre tag "Rock;Glam". The bonus tracks at
the end of the album are tagged "Rock;Glam;Bonus". I don't want the
bonus tracks to show up in my regular browsing, hence the "!Bonus" in
the filter.

- Marc

What a good idea. It would take a while to assign genres to 15,000 tracks though. Was there any consensus on what the genres should be? Has everyone made up there own? Assigning genres is very subjective.

erland
2006-09-26, 09:44
Your ideas are all great, keep more comming.
Some comments regarding some of the already posted ideas:

bernt
- Your idea to sort albums by year when an artist already has been selected in the parent menu seems logical, I will change this.

gusi
- Searching is out of scope for the Custom Browse plugin at the moment.

Dr Lovegrove
- Releated information is currently not in the slimserver database which also makes your idea out of the scope at the moment, a great idea though if the relation information could be retreived from some web site.

Marc Sherman
- Defining menus for different genre combinations should definitely be possible with Custom Browse. I will just have to think about it a bit to see if there is a way to make the menus easy to configure. Today you will have to hard code the genre names in the *.cb.xml files which makes it a bit hard. It might be possible to have some sort of template based solution similar to what I have in the SQLPlayList plugin.

radish
- Your albums menu with separated compilations and artist albums should be quite simple, I'll try to include it in next release.

JJZolx
- The Years menu sorted in descending order seems logical.
- Regarding the Albums within the Years menu that is sorted by artist, its definitely possible. I'm not sure however that I want to make this the default though, it seems logical in one way but I think I would like it to display both the album and artist if this should be the default. I think I have to experiment a litte with it to see how it looks like.
- The Genres menu as I see it is just a more shallow menu since the artist is not a menu level instead the albums are sorted by artist. I think this could be included as a sample.
- Regarding the editing of XML files I have been thinking about a web UI, but haven't found a good solution that makes it both easy to use and not so hard to develop. At the moment I am thinking that it might be a good idea to be able to generate the xml files base on a number of selections and then edit them manually, similar to the way SQLPlayList works.
- Adding the menus to the Home is probably possible, I will add this to the wishlist.
- Someone else has to take the decision if this should be a core part of slimserver or not, at the moment I think its best as a plugin since it isn't very user friendly and the code inside is quite different from the code in the standard slimserver.

gusi
2006-09-26, 09:50
Pat,

Flac comments can do all that the problem is getting it into the database. Freedb has only minimal tags in the database.

This should be possible:
http://reactor-core.org/ogg-tagging.html

The ISRC looks similar to the ISBN for books. I am not sure how thoroughly it is implemented and used but having a unique identifier for each CD-release would be useful in sharing tags.

Marc Sherman
2006-09-26, 10:08
erland wrote:
>
> MARC SHERMAN
> - Defining menus for different genre combinations should definitely be
> possible with Custom Browse. I will just have to think about it a bit
> to see if there is a way to make the menus easy to configure. Today you
> will have to hard code the genre names in the *.cb.xml files which makes
> it a bit hard. It might be possible to have some sort of template based
> solution similar to what I have in the SQLPlayList plugin.

I'm perfectly content with editing xml files to configure this if
there's no webui. Does the current implementation allow tri-state genre
filtering?

Also, what about random mixes (or linking sql playlists to the filters
defined here)? It'd be nice not to have to specify the same filters in
both custom browse and sql playlist.

- Marc

pfarrell
2006-09-26, 10:34
gusi wrote:
> Flac comments can do all that the problem is getting it into the
> database. Freedb has only minimal tags in the database.

Actually there are two parts to the problem:
1) getting the data
2) storing the data into the Mysql tables.

In addition to the command to tell the SlimServer scanner to never
delete things it doesn't know about.

The existing obvious data sources, cddb and freedb are just not well
populated with this level of detail, and they have little or nothing
about Jazz and Classical styles. The obvious solution it to have folks
who care develop it. Let me think about it, I could probably store the
data in one of my servers -- I'll need to develop some web-friendly way
to collect it.

Once it is in my database, it is not hard to setup something like an XML
transfer to your database.

There have been a number of threads on this general topic in the
ripping, audiophiles and even developer sections over the years. The
things folks want for pop/rock/etc. just don't cut it for some "genres"

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

bernt
2006-09-26, 10:38
Your ideas are all great, keep more comming.
Some comments regarding some of the already posted ideas:

bernt
- Your idea to sort albums by year when an artist already has been selected in the parent menu seems logical, I will change this.



Thank you. I'm really looking forward for this.
Keep up the good work. :-)

gusi
2006-09-26, 10:54
Pat,

Nice idea. I just had a look at your home page and saw all the tools you have developed.

For flac files you can use multiple artist comments according to the slimwiki. I am not sure if it is still valid for 6.5. I understand that the mySQL database is new in 6.5 but I haven't had a good look at the slimserver internals yet.

Also had a quick look at amazon. Alas no performer info. That would have been nice as the album art retrieval is almost manual as well. Perhaps it is possible to retrieve it from sites like Verve, Blue Note etc. For Jazz there are less than 10 labels that would cover 80% of most peoples collections.

It would force me to organize the cd collection if I had to get them all out to manually enter all the artist data.

radish
2006-09-26, 10:59
radish
- Your albums menu with separated compilations and artist albums should be quite simple, I'll try to include it in next release.


Awesome - thanks! I did try your plugin out a couple of weeks ago and it worked fine, but browsing the custom menus seemed a lot slower than the regular Browse... menus. Is this expected? I could understand that caching, indices etc could be optimised for the standard queries.

erland
2006-09-26, 10:59
I'm perfectly content with editing xml files to configure this if
there's no webui. Does the current implementation allow tri-state genre filtering?
Sure, you just have to figure out how the SQL should look like. The RandomPlayList plugin (not same as RandomMix) does this in its implementation of random mixes. If I remember correct it does it with a single SQL which also means it will be possible to use a similar SQL in the Custom Browse menu definition. But I think genre filtered menu really have some great potential, so I think it would be worth to try to implement a more user friendly interface for this.


Also, what about random mixes (or linking sql playlists to the filters defined here)? It'd be nice not to have to specify the same filters in both custom browse and sql playlist.
At the moment there is no interaction between Custom Browse and SQLPlayList plugin. The SQL statements also are a little bit different so I think the definitions needs to be done separately. But I have been thinking a litte about how they could be integrated. My current idea is that hold+play on the remote on an item in the menu should show a list of possible actions. The idea is that this actions could be things like:
- Start a SQLPlayList with the selected item as parameter
- Execute a SQL statement returning tracks and load all these tracks to the current playlist
- Browse TrackStat statistics for the selected item
- Create a Music IP mix based on the selected item

pfarrell
2006-09-26, 11:02
gusi wrote:
> The ISRC looks similar to the ISBN for books. I am not sure how
> thoroughly it is implemented and used but having a unique identifier
> for each CD-release would be useful in sharing tags.

I haven't slogged thru tags in my collection lately, my software is old
and dusty these days. But when I was looking at it a lot, the ISRC was
not well supported.

And the question of exactly what a "CD-release" is turns out to be
non-trivial. At OneBigCd, we found things like albums with the same UPC
code (and name and artist) that had radically different CDDB hash
values, sometimes they had different numbers of tracks, lots of times
they had differing track lengths. And it is pretty hard to calculate the
CDDB hash once the files are in FLAC or MP3 or other format (I think you
can do it if they are still PCM files, but who wants to keep them).

But most of this is just a SMOP, once the motivation is there.

--
Pat Farrell PRC recording studio
http://www.pfarrell.com/PRC

erland
2006-09-26, 11:08
browsing the custom menus seemed a lot slower than the regular Browse... menus. Is this expected? I could understand that caching, indices etc could be optimised for the standard queries.
I haven't looked at performance optimization at all yet so its probably possible to make them a bit faster. Also indexes in the slimserver database are optimized for the standard browse menus. In version 1.0 there were some queries that were a more complex than needed but this was corrected in the 1.1 release if I remember correct.

Anyway, so far my main priority has been the functionallity and this will probably also be the case in a few releases more, but after that its probably time to do some performance testing and optimization.

erland
2006-09-26, 11:16
Actually there are two parts to the problem:
1) getting the data
2) storing the data into the Mysql tables.

In addition to the command to tell the SlimServer scanner to never
delete things it doesn't know about.

If you create separate tables for the data slimserver won't delete it. This is what I have done with TrackStat for storing information about ratings and different types of statistics. This of course also means that no standard functionallity in slimserver can use the data since it doesn't know about the new tables. However, plugins such as SQLPlayList and Custom Browse will be able to use it since you enter the actual SQL statements yourself in these plugins.

radish
2006-09-26, 12:35
I haven't looked at performance optimization at all yet so its probably possible to make them a bit faster. Also indexes in the slimserver database are optimized for the standard browse menus. In version 1.0 there were some queries that were a more complex than needed but this was corrected in the 1.1 release if I remember correct.

Anyway, so far my main priority has been the functionallity and this will probably also be the case in a few releases more, but after that its probably time to do some performance testing and optimization.

Sounds good. Thanks again for this - it's filling the one remaining hole in slimserver functionality from my point of view.

JJZolx
2006-09-26, 16:53
You know, while we're wishlisting... How about some of the things that I hope to see in SlimServer some day.

Optional album counts next to artist names when the next level in the hierarchy is album

Home / Artists

...
Cannonball Adderley (9 albums)
Aerosmith (4 albums)
The Allman Brothers (6 albums)
...
Less redundant text and more actual info, such as track duration, in album track listings:


Home / Custom Browse / Genres / Artists / Albums / Songs
...
1. Autumn Leaves (11:01)
2. Love For Sale (07:05)
3. Somethin' Else (08:15)
...
Album art at the top of album track listings, with album information to the right.


|---------------|
| | Something Else
| | Cannonball Adderley
| | 1958
| | 45:24
| |
| |
|---------------|

1. Autumn Leaves (11:01)
2. Love For Sale (07:05)
3. Somethin' Else (08:15)
...

Better breadcrumb navigation, with the main goal of being able unwind the navigation in the same path you took getting to the current page.


Home / Artists / E-G / Ella Fitzgerald / The Best of the Song Books

- or -

Home / Albums / T / Tupelo Honey

erland
2006-10-01, 00:54
A new version (1.5) of the Custom Browse plugin is now available, some of the things mentioned in this thread has been implemented in the new release.

See here for more information:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=141578#post141578

erland
2006-10-07, 09:54
Here's what I want to see -- I'd like to be able to partition my collection with pre-defined genre filters. The filters would be configurable in the web-UI, preferably with an array of tri-states (ie: each genere can be included or excluded, not just included like in the Random Mix). Each filter would have a configurable title (which is how it would show up in the browse tree).
A wizard that makes it possible to create menus like this is available in the 1.6 release of Custom Browse just released. Look for the "Genre Libraries" menu type when creating a new menu from the web interface.

tommypeters
2006-10-12, 13:55
Would it be any problem to copy this browser to a Synology DS-106 running SlimServer 6.3.1 (memory usage, external programs...)?