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wunder
2006-07-12, 08:55
I think I'm going to love the squeezebox. It has the potential to do for audio what Tivo does for video. However, the lack of any bundled software means that it's only usable by technically savvy users. This is much different from Tivo- pretty much anyone can plug it in and use it. I spent hours tracking down ripping, error checking, tag editing and music playback software and getting them all to work together smoothly (still not perfect, though- no album art). I'm a software developer by trade- if it was this tough for me, I can't recommend this system to very many of my friends.

SlimServer needs an interface which does:

1) Rip- have good/better/best interface with best being Flac.

2) Auto read CDDB/Album art.

3) Integrated Tag editing.

4) Music Playback capability without loading a separate program. This would mostly just be an assist for editing and maintaining the library.

All of this should be set up with a very minimalistic user interface. This could possibly even be sold as a bundled option to recover some of the development cost.

I'm not advocating getting rid of the freewheeling plug-in crazy slimdevice universe, just add a simplified all-in-one software package for non-techies.

bflatmajor
2006-07-12, 10:25
Being a developer by trade also, I understand your point. But I also like the ability to say the SB does what it does with what matters the most, better than any other device on the market.

And what matters is the sound quality. No other device at this price point can match it!!

Steven Moore
2006-07-12, 10:49
"I can't recommend this system to very many of my friends."

I have to agree with this. A lot of my PC owning friends can barely operate their PC's a squeezebox would be a step too far.
They are impressed with the machine but when I explain the operation of it it goes straight over their heads so fixing any problems would be out of the question.

wunder
2006-07-12, 11:02
Being a developer by trade also, I understand your point. But I also like the ability to say the SB does what it does with what matters the most, better than any other device on the market.

And what matters is the sound quality. No other device at this price point can match it!!

I agree, but their current potential market is about 5% of the population. Make it easy to use and you get 80% EAC/Flac and Squeezebox is really amazing. Having full CD-Quality with my entire music collection a few clicks away is just awesome- but right now I would have to configure it for anyone I recommend it to!

kdf
2006-07-12, 11:13
Quoting wunder <wunder.2augmb1152727501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

>
> bflatmajor Wrote:

> I agree, but their current potential market is about 5% of the
> population.

wow. That's pretty good. 5% of 6,355,543,400 is over 317 million
units, and that doesn't even begin to cover those who might want more
than one. That's fabulous news! You'd be doing Slim Devices a great
favour if you pass your market research onto them so they can really
capitalise on this potential windfall of users. Truly brilliant. I
wonder, might you know some reliable distributors in Central Africa to
make it easy for those customers to get their units directly?

Man, all the bad vibes just go away with this news. terrific.
-kdf

Victor
2006-07-12, 11:16
SlimServer needs an interface which does:

2) Auto read CDDB/Album art.




Just out of curiosity, where do you propose that Slim magically get all the album art from?

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:27
I think the album art is a minor point anyway. I agree with his general
point -- a bundled package would expand the market for the SB while not
removing any of the features/benefits we currently enjoy. Unless one of the
features we enjoy is being members of an exclusive club?

On 7/12/06, Victor <Victor.2auhbb1152728401 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> wunder Wrote:
> >
> > SlimServer needs an interface which does:
> >
> > 2) Auto read CDDB/Album art.
> >
> >
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, where do you propose that Slim magically get all
> the album art from?
>
>
> --
> Victor
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Victor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2181
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25462
>
>

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:28
Was this hostility really warranted? Or did I misread the tone of your
message? I think the guy is trying to make a helpful suggestion.

On 7/12/06, kdf <slim-mail (AT) deane-freeman (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> Quoting wunder <wunder.2augmb1152727501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:
>
> >
> > bflatmajor Wrote:
>
> > I agree, but their current potential market is about 5% of the
> > population.
>
> wow. That's pretty good. 5% of 6,355,543,400 is over 317 million
> units, and that doesn't even begin to cover those who might want more
> than one. That's fabulous news! You'd be doing Slim Devices a great
> favour if you pass your market research onto them so they can really
> capitalise on this potential windfall of users. Truly brilliant. I
> wonder, might you know some reliable distributors in Central Africa to
> make it easy for those customers to get their units directly?
>
> Man, all the bad vibes just go away with this news. terrific.
> -kdf
>

wunder
2006-07-12, 11:32
Just out of curiosity, where do you propose that Slim magically get all the album art from?

Wherever all the other players get theirs from. WMP does a nice job. I'm not trying to design the system- just describing what I feel would be a marketable product.

stinkingpig
2006-07-12, 11:34
On 7/12/06, Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> I think the album art is a minor point anyway. I agree with his general
> point -- a bundled package would expand the market for the SB while not
> removing any of the features/benefits we currently enjoy. Unless one of the
> features we enjoy is being members of an exclusive club?
>
>
My club's more exclusive than yours.

Note that the hostility (a strong word, but whatever) is coming from people
who have contributed a great deal of effort to making this product better,
and is going toward a person who is acting like the worst kind of new
manager -- dropping in out of nowhere to proclaim that everything's broken
and in order to fix it, you just need to make a few changes.

Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it... same
thing goes for Slimserver. If it's so easy and valuable, then make the
bundle CD and post an ISO. If it proves popular and useful, SDI might look
into bundling it.
--
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
So across the Western ocean I must wander" -- traditional

Victor
2006-07-12, 11:40
Wherever all the other players get theirs from. WMP does a nice job. I'm not trying to design the system- just describing what I feel would be a marketable product.

Which is my point exactly. Dropping in with pie-in-the-sky ideas without considering their impact on existing users/products is naive at best and frankly insulting at worst.

You proposed solution (idea?) would add a significant cost to the device. Since we're showing off our market analysis chops in this thread, please tell me how much it would decrease Slim's marketshare if the price of the product went up by say a $100 or so.

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:42
I am thankful for the people who have put their time into the product, but I
don't think the reaction was warranted. This guy raised a valid concern,
and is hardly the first to have done so. I guess you could be angry he
hadn't searched the archives and realized this, but I don't see how such
sarcasm is appropriate for making a suggestion.

He never said anything was broken. He said he liked the product the way it
was. He said there were a lot of people who would also like it, if it could
be made more accessible to them. I think the negative responses he got were
over the top.

On 7/12/06, Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org> wrote:
>
> On 7/12/06, Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> >
> > I think the album art is a minor point anyway. I agree with his general
> > point -- a bundled package would expand the market for the SB while not
> > removing any of the features/benefits we currently enjoy. Unless one of the
> > features we enjoy is being members of an exclusive club?
> >
> >
> My club's more exclusive than yours.
>
> Note that the hostility (a strong word, but whatever) is coming from
> people who have contributed a great deal of effort to making this product
> better, and is going toward a person who is acting like the worst kind of
> new manager -- dropping in out of nowhere to proclaim that everything's
> broken and in order to fix it, you just need to make a few changes.
>
> Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it...
> same thing goes for Slimserver. If it's so easy and valuable, then make the
> bundle CD and post an ISO. If it proves popular and useful, SDI might look
> into bundling it.
> --
> "I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
> So across the Western ocean I must wander" -- traditional
>
>

kdf
2006-07-12, 11:42
Quoting Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:

> Was this hostility really warranted? Or did I misread the tone of your
> message?

it wasn't hostile. I 'think' that was obvious.

bogus marketing figures are meaningless. I'm personally never sure if
I trust 'real' marketing figures.
-kdf

aubuti
2006-07-12, 11:45
I spent hours tracking down ripping, error checking, tag editing and music playback software and getting them all to work together smoothly (still not perfect, though- no album art).
For any others potentially put off by the prospect of spending hours doing this, be sure to check out the very lucid Beginner's Guide on the SD wiki. You still need to spend some time learning the new software, just as you would if it were bundled and put on a CD with the SqueezeBox. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?BeginnersGuide

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:45
The guy was just making a point -- I don't think he was attempting to be
mathematically precise. I think it is generally accepted that the number of
non-computer technical people is significantly larger than the number of
technical people. I'm pretty sure that was all he was trying to say.

I apologize for using the word hostility. I think the original poster
described it better as sarcastic and negative. In any case, not the sort of
response I'd hope to get if I made a suggestion to improve a product that I
love.

On 7/12/06, kdf <slim-mail (AT) deane-freeman (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> Quoting Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>
> > Was this hostility really warranted? Or did I misread the tone of your
> > message?
>
> it wasn't hostile. I 'think' that was obvious.
>
> bogus marketing figures are meaningless. I'm personally never sure if
> I trust 'real' marketing figures.
> -kdf
>

Victor
2006-07-12, 11:46
I think the album art is a minor point anyway. I agree with his general
point -- a bundled package would expand the market for the SB while not
removing any of the features/benefits we currently enjoy. Unless one of the
features we enjoy is being members of an exclusive club?


It's not about being an exclusive club. It's about a guy dropping in out of the blue and basically implying that the Slim guys have their heads up their ass because they haven't come up with what *he* sees as the essential feature sets.

I am not saying he's wrong or right. What I am saying is that a bundled package would increase the cost of a Slim device in a non-trivial way. And does the increase in price drive away more customers than the features attract? I don't know, and he doesn't know either. And this, from a business standpoint, (which he claims to represent with his many years of business experience) is a HUGE no-no.

If people want to sit in the forums and pull ideas out if their ass, they're quite welcome to. But this guy acts like no one at Slim has ever done any market research or cost analysis on their own products. So if he wants to come back and start a thread like "How can we help new users get their CDs ripped easier?", I'd be happy to have a dialogue with him. Until then, he's just blowing hot air.

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:47
Yes. No more suggestions from anyone unless they already have a design
document, a feasibility study, appropriate independently conducted marketing
research, and apparently a flameproof coat.

On 7/12/06, Victor <Victor.2auigz1152729901 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> wunder Wrote:
> > Wherever all the other players get theirs from. WMP does a nice job.
> > I'm not trying to design the system- just describing what I feel would
> > be a marketable product.
>
> Which is my point exactly. Dropping in with pie-in-the-sky ideas
> without considering their impact on existing users/products is naive at
> best and frankly insulting at worst.
>
> You proposed solution (idea?) would add a significant cost to the
> device. Since we're showing off our market analysis chops in this
> thread, please tell me how much it would decrease Slim's marketshare if
> the price of the product went up by say a $100 or so.
>
>
> --
> Victor
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Victor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2181
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25462
>
>

kdf
2006-07-12, 11:51
Quoting Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:


> I apologize for using the word hostility. I think the original poster
> described it better as sarcastic and negative. In any case, not the sort of
> response I'd hope to get if I made a suggestion to improve a product that I
> love.

right. I'm sure you feel like you are at your best while you work at
your desk with 20 people standing over you telling you how you coudl
do better...

yup...my dream job.

as I have said. suggestions are one thing. tossed in with arbitrary
emotive garbage, is not just a 'simple suggestion'

sorry you take it so badly, but I guess now you can see from the other
side how easily 'simple' words can cause upset?

look at the topid of this thread. Jsut from that, it's already
insulting. I feel the claim is false, and I don't have to care about
market share, etc etc. But this kind of labelling does have its
effects. There are important people who no longer take part or read
this forum becuase of those effects.
-k

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:53
I did not feel at all that he implied the Slim guys have their heads up
their ass. I guess this is why people misinterpret e-mail frequently. My
reading of his message was just the observations of a new user to the
product, with suggestions for improvement. I thought (and still think) that
the responses were inappropriately harsh.

On 7/12/06, Victor <Victor.2auipb1152730201 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Mitch Harding Wrote:
> > I think the album art is a minor point anyway. I agree with his
> > general
> > point -- a bundled package would expand the market for the SB while
> > not
> > removing any of the features/benefits we currently enjoy. Unless one
> > of the
> > features we enjoy is being members of an exclusive club?
> >
>
> It's not about being an exclusive club. It's about a guy dropping in
> out of the blue and basically implying that the Slim guys have their
> heads up their ass because they haven't come up with what *he* sees as
> the essential feature sets.
>
> I am not saying he's wrong or right. What I am saying is that a bundled
> package would increase the cost of a Slim device in a non-trivial way.
> And does the increase in price drive away more customers than the
> features attract? I don't know, and he doesn't know either. And this,
> from a business standpoint, (which he claims to represent with his many
> years of business experience) is a HUGE no-no.
>
> If people want to sit in the forums and pull ideas out if their ass,
> they're quite welcome to. But this guy acts like no one at Slim has
> ever done any market research or cost analysis on their own products.
> So if he wants to come back and start a thread like "How can we help
> new users get their CDs ripped easier?", I'd be happy to have a
> dialogue with him. Until then, he's just blowing hot air.
>
>
> --
> Victor
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Victor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2181
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25462
>
>

Marc Sherman
2006-07-12, 11:54
wunder wrote:
>
> I didn't realize that ideas/suggestions on this forum would be met with
> dripping sarcasm and negativity. I'll take my 20+ years of business
> experience elsewhere now. Have a nice day.

Don't let the door hit you in the acumen on the way out.

- Marc

wunder
2006-07-12, 11:54
You proposed solution (idea?) would add a significant cost to the device. Since we're showing off our market analysis chops in this thread, please tell me how much it would decrease Slim's market share if the price of the product went up by say a $100 or so.

Obviously I can't answer that definitively, but having a fully functional integrated system would sell a lot more units and cut the hypothetical (since I don't know what they are) return rates.

I didn't intend to cause a heated debate with this- I thought I would share my initial impressions and suggestions since I noticed the Slim Devices employees frequent this forum. I think this product has very large potential but right now it's missing a big component.

I guess as they say, 'no good deed goes unpunished'

kdf
2006-07-12, 11:55
Quoting Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:

> Yes. No more suggestions from anyone unless they already have a design
> document, a feasibility study, appropriate independently conducted marketing
> research, and apparently a flameproof coat.

I'll drink to that! try writing code without full justification for
each line...and the provervial flameproof coat. how delightfully one
sided we all get to be :)
-k

Victor
2006-07-12, 11:56
Yes. No more suggestions from anyone unless they already have a design
document, a feasibility study, appropriate independently conducted marketing
research, and apparently a flameproof coat.


I'd settle for no more suggestions from people who act like the OP and decide they know everything that's wrong with the world and they can fix it. I am all for exchange of ideas and suggestions, but the posts of "This product is doomed unless you do this" are a tad bit insulting to all the folks who have worked so hard on this product.

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 11:57
I think there is a difference between people making suggestions and people
hovering over you while you work. I create and support a lot of software
tools in my current job. I value suggestions, even ones which are clearly
unrealistic or not thought out, because it shows me how users view the tools
I've written. It helps me improve them, even if I don't follow all of the
suggestions or even most of them.

And frankly, while I agree the subject line of this message could be more
diplomatic, I find myself in agreement with it. I bought the SB because I
love music, but I would have had a rough time with it if I wasn't also
computer savvy. I guess I'm glad I didn't post a message to that effect
when I got the product! :)

On 7/12/06, kdf <slim-mail (AT) deane-freeman (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> Quoting Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>
>
> > I apologize for using the word hostility. I think the original poster
> > described it better as sarcastic and negative. In any case, not the
> sort of
> > response I'd hope to get if I made a suggestion to improve a product
> that I
> > love.
>
> right. I'm sure you feel like you are at your best while you work at
> your desk with 20 people standing over you telling you how you coudl
> do better...
>
> yup...my dream job.
>
> as I have said. suggestions are one thing. tossed in with arbitrary
> emotive garbage, is not just a 'simple suggestion'
>
> sorry you take it so badly, but I guess now you can see from the other
> side how easily 'simple' words can cause upset?
>
> look at the topid of this thread. Jsut from that, it's already
> insulting. I feel the claim is false, and I don't have to care about
> market share, etc etc. But this kind of labelling does have its
> effects. There are important people who no longer take part or read
> this forum becuase of those effects.
> -k
>

pfarrell
2006-07-12, 11:59
wunder wrote:
> I didn't intend to cause a heated debate with this- I thought I would
> share my initial impressions and suggestions since I noticed the Slim
> Devices employees frequent this forum. I think this product has very
> large potential but right now it's missing a big component.

Sure could have fooled me, starting with the subject line.

It alone is inflamatory and insulting.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

Victor
2006-07-12, 12:05
Obviously I can't answer that definitively, but having a fully functional integrated system would sell a lot more units and cut the hypothetical (since I don't know what they are) return rates.

I didn't intend to cause a heated debate with this- I thought I would share my initial impressions and suggestions since I noticed the Slim Devices employees frequent this forum. I think this product has very large potential but right now it's missing a big component.

I guess as they say, 'no good deed goes unpunished'

Wunder,

I think that if you started a thread without emotive suggestions such as " it would sell a lot more devices", and a subject that insults the people who use the product, it'd sit a lot better with the people here. There are a lot of people who like doing business with SDI (the company and the people who make it up) and thus feel a bit put off when you imply that SDI doesn't know what they're doing (which you post did maybe unintentionally, but it certainly came off that way none the less).

You don't know (and neither do I) if it's worth Slim's investment to put this functionality in their product. Common sense and logic btw have nothing to do with market realities of what users actually buy and why.

On the other hand, if you want to start a new thread that's entitled something like, "Hey! Let's help newbies get started quicker with the Squeezebox", I'll happily join that (as I suspect would others) and contribute ideas and code as to how to make that happen.

I feel pretty confident that if introducing this functionality would double the sales of Squeezeboxes overnight, SDI might have already thought of it by now :)

wunder
2006-07-12, 12:05
I'd settle for no more suggestions from people who act like the OP and decide they know everything that's wrong with the world and they can fix it. I am all for exchange of ideas and suggestions, but the posts of "This product is doomed unless you do this" are a tad bit insulting to all the folks who have worked so hard on this product.

Wow I really must have touched a nerve. For the record, I did look over several pages of the beginner forum and general discussion before I posted my thoughts. I never said the product was doomed- it's great, just hard to use unless you already have all your music archived in a format that is supported.

How is it that my suggestions were insulting to you? Are you one of the product developers? My company gets product suggestions all the time from new users. If I treated their suggestions like mine have been done here, my company would have been gone in a week!

If it makes anyone feel better, I apologize for posting my comments. I intend to continue posting suggestions for other new users in these forums. I will do my best to not insult in the future.

Jacob Potter
2006-07-12, 12:07
On 7/12/06, wunder <wunder.2auixn1152730501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
> Obviously I can't answer that definitively, but having a fully
> functional integrated system would sell a lot more units and cut the
> hypothetical (since I don't know what they are) return rates.

The thing is, there is such a thing as aiming at too technical an
audience, but expecting users to already have a music library isn't
unreasonable. It puts the Squeezebox in a position of integration with
things like the iPod, rather than conflicting with it. Everyone who
owns a portable media player /or/ subscribes to one of the online
download services already has a library manager, tag editor, ripper,
and so on - that's a huge market.

To give some actual numbers, as of the beginning of this year there
had been 42 million iPods sold - that's an awful lot of people who
already have their music ripped and don't want yet another management
system to deal with.

Compare to the Sonos system, for example. High-end integration doesn't
necessarily lead to a larger market share.

- Jacob

wunder
2006-07-12, 12:08
Wunder,

I think that if you started a thread without emotive suggestions such as " it would sell a lot more devices", and a subject that insults the people who use the product, it'd sit a lot better with the people here.

I apologize for my flip title. I should have put a smiley next to it- it was mostly intended to be funny, but obviously didn't come across that way!

Incidentally- I consider myself a bithead as well :)

Victor
2006-07-12, 12:08
How is it that my suggestions were insulting to you? Are you one of the product developers?

I am not a product developer. Just a long time happy user, and an occasional contributer to some Slim hacks.

See my previous post about why you touched the nerve you did. Again, suggestions and ideas are always welcome in this forum (more so btw than any other online community I've been a part of).

kdf
2006-07-12, 12:14
Quoting Mitch Harding <mitcharf (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:

> I value suggestions, even ones which are clearly
> unrealistic or not thought out, because it shows me how users view the tools
> I've written. It helps me improve them, even if I don't follow all of the
> suggestions or even most of them.

and most of your colleagues, I expect, treat you with respect when
giving those suggestions. Not start off with "I'm a ** with x years
experience, and I think your work is really falling short. What you
need to do is....".

but of course, this is way off topic and no longer even applies to the
original post or poster.

The problem was not with the original post, just the once again
flinging numbers to somehow manufacture an impact behind the 'need to
do this'. No one says you aren't allowed to do that, but don't expect
everyone to then take it seriously. Suggestions are fine. However,
becuase of random numbers, I couldn't be bothered to read that far.
So, how effective are those suggestions on me becuase of that? It is
just somehow wrong to outright blame your audience for how your
message is recieved.

responding to one suggestion: getting artwork...lots of options. SOAP
via Amazon springs to mind. However, you have this minor problem
where Amazon feels that they own the images, and as a company you can
get into problems trying to just grab it, unless you are a much bigger
company. Then they become grateful that you haven't stepped on them
as you pass by.

-k

wunder
2006-07-12, 12:15
The thing is, there is such a thing as aiming at too technical an
audience, but expecting users to already have a music library isn't
unreasonable. It puts the Squeezebox in a position of integration with
things like the iPod
<snip>
Compare to the Sonos system, for example. High-end integration doesn't
necessarily lead to a larger market share.

That's a really good point. I've been on the MP3-player sidelines up to now. I seriously considered the Sonos system, but I preferred the stand-alone design of Slimdevices.

Victor
2006-07-12, 12:23
responding to one suggestion: getting artwork...lots of options. SOAP
via Amazon springs to mind. However, you have this minor problem
where Amazon feels that they own the images, and as a company you can
get into problems trying to just grab it, unless you are a much bigger
company. Then they become grateful that you haven't stepped on them
as you pass by.


*ding*!!!!

That exactly what I was getting at in my post about the artwork. You'd need to license the artwork from someone, and that cost gets rolled into the price of the Squeezebox.

wunder
2006-07-12, 12:27
and most of your colleagues, I expect, treat you with respect when
giving those suggestions. Not start off with "I'm a ** with x years -k

I didn't bring up my experience until after you had drilled me a new hole, KDF (and I just deleted that post). I apologize for my flip title, which I think led to most of this misunderstanding. I think many people here feel a very personal relationship with this product especially considering many of you have put in lots of hours in unpaid development time. I'll tread more lightly going forward.

kdf
2006-07-12, 12:47
Quoting wunder <wunder.2aukjz1152732601 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

>
> kdf Wrote:
>> and most of your colleagues, I expect, treat you with respect when
>> giving those suggestions. Not start off with "I'm a ** with x years
>> -k
>
> I didn't bring up my experience until after you had drilled me a new
> hole, KDF (and I just deleted that post).

and as I said, it was getting off topic and no longer related to you.
Threads change and responses do get directed toward later comments
along the way.
-k

MrSinatra
2006-07-12, 13:07
wow...

its funny, there's two sides to this issue, and both are legit, in some ways... but neither can see the other.

on one side, you have what in sports talk are known as "homers" which are essentially cheerleaders for their own "home" team. think of "da bears" crew from snl.

these people think, for whatever unjustified reason[s], that they can berate anyone or anything they don't like that, in any way, real or not, dares besmirches their team.

on the other side, you have people, generally speaking lets call them "noobs," who have no ill intention of any kind, who merely want to point out an impression or opinion they may have, and unfortunately, moreoften then not, at least one or more of these opinions has not been thought out fully, before they post.

they may in the course of pointing something out, say something that has been said [erroneously to boot] 1000 times before, and / or isn't backed up by fact or research! heresy!

but i am of the opinion that if no malice was intended, no malice should be returned. an advanced lesson for some of us to be sure, even though its first taught in kindergarten.

so, upon the noobs "insultingly arrogant and unknowledgable" comment, which so foolishly strikes at the very heart of dignity & glory above all else; the divine squeezebox! ...those defenders of the faith quickly swarm like army ants over the savage ignorant barbarian invader, making sure his hordes of foolishness is repelled.

this is ostensibly done, b/c time has shown that the elders, (those brilliant and helpful folks of yesteryear with the wisdom of solomon, who now no longer visit the temple) have left precisely b/c of the taint and infection these maruading noobs bore them with, the worst crime of all. there can of course, be no other reason someone stopped visiting at the altar of squeezebox. amen.

here's what i suggest, and i hope everyone has taken this post in the good humor in which its intended...

noobs will always come and rain on your parade, nothing you do will stop that, EVER. that being the case, and since noobs, whatever crimes they are guilty of, 99% of the time show no malice, instead of attacking them, * and chasing away what could develop into a resource which in time could replace the mythical missing elders * why don't you either:

1. expalin, sans malice, sarcasm, and whatever else, why they are wrong, or

2. simply ignore them all together and / or let someone else deal with it?

seems more cordial to me.

jncraig
2006-07-12, 13:13
> wow...
>
> its funny, there's two sides to this issue, and both are legit, in some
> ways... but neither can see the other.

At last, a breath of sanity!


--


Joe

danco
2006-07-12, 13:56
Nobody has yet pointed out to the OP that Slim Devices have a service for ripping CDs. It's not cheap, but not that expensive, and it does involve sending the CDs away.

I think this is the right way for Slim Devices to go about things. It means they don't have to reinvent the wheelby creating a new ripping program when plenty of them already exist. It keeps their product cross-platform, etc.

It's right on the front page of the Web site, but perhaps it needs more publicity.

bpa
2006-07-12, 14:24
Can people help to put this OP's suggestion in context of competitors.

What software Ripping, Tagging and Album Art software comes bundled with competitive products ?

MrSinatra
2006-07-12, 15:12
those that come with music match do for example.

cbemoore
2006-07-12, 16:19
Geting back to the original poster's suggestions, I don't think that bundling CD ripping software with SlimServer is the right way forward.

In my opinion, the whole idea of the Squeezebox is:

If you *already* have lots of music stored on your PC, (for example, you rip it yourself or download it from some reputable source), its easy to play it back on your computer in the office, but its hard to play it back anywhere else (for example, in your kitchen, or on your hi-fi system in the lounge). The Squeezebox is the solution to this problem.

So if you buy a Squeezebox, it kind of assume that you already have your music ripped in the format of your choice. So bundling a ripper is completely unnecessary....

Mitch Harding
2006-07-12, 16:32
To me the other possible target audience is someone who has a very large CD
collection. The main reason I began ripping my music in the first place was
the inconvenience of having to deal with shuffling CDs. Since I am computer
savvy, ripping was the obvious solution for me, and then later I found the
Squeezebox and fell in love.

Just among my acquaintances I know a few people who have large CD
collections but went a different route -- they bought a huge CD changer. I
know they don't consider the solution ideal, but I suspect they'd find the
computer issues daunting without some help.

I don't know if bundling the ripping/encoding/tagging software with the SB
is necessarily the way to go. But it could be as easy as providing a quick
start guide to ripping/encoding music. Just defining the concepts, and
pointing the person to the right resources (the wiki, or maybe some online
guides).

I think it boils down to the fact that I believe the following things to be
true:
- There is a market for the SB outside of people who already have their
music ripped to a PC
- A good percentage of these people do not have their music on a PC probably
are in that situation due to a lack of PC savvy
- The SB would be an appealing product to some of these people, if they
could overcome the PC phobia

The size of this market is obviously debatable, as well as whether it is
worth pursuing, as well as the best way to pursue it.

On 7/12/06, cbemoore <cbemoore.2auv7b1152746401 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Geting back to the original poster's suggestions, I don't think that
> bundling CD ripping software with SlimServer is the right way forward.
>
> In my opinion, the whole idea of the Squeezebox is:
>
> If you *already* have lots of music stored on your PC, (for example,
> you rip it yourself or download it from some reputable source), its
> easy to play it back on your computer in the office, but its hard to
> play it back anywhere else (for example, in your kitchen, or on your
> hi-fi system in the lounge). The Squeezebox is the solution to this
> problem.
>
> So if you buy a Squeezebox, it kind of assume that you already have
> your music ripped in the format of your choice. So bundling a ripper is
> completely unnecessary....
>
>
> --
> cbemoore
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> cbemoore's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=163
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25462
>
>

MrSinatra
2006-07-12, 17:41
i personally agree that SS shouldn't bundle a ripper, or at the very least, should be open to any given ripper.

however, considering that EAC is a free product, and its developer wants people to use it, perhaps SS and EAC can combine forces and promote each other, and maybe they could even develop a plugin jointly.

its just a thought. its funny that as much as i value ease of use and intuitive use, i use two of the most complex products out there, and use WMP to get artwork and winamp to straighten up my tags.

to me, SS is to power SB first, and be a web server second. i think for ripping and burning cds, people already have methods, or have methods they would rather use even if SS offered an avenue.

but, i would certainly not be against plugins.

LHawes
2006-07-12, 18:03
All I can say is WOW. Just got back to my computer and discovered this thread. I had no idea the Squeeze Box folks could be so sensitive to a rather simple request and observation about a product the OP obviously has a lot of respect for.

I happen to agree with his sentiments as one of my first posts tried to explain, perhaps poorly, what I thought was presented as, and would be received as, a suggestion to a great company and a great product.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25168

I'm just curious as to what happened here. I didn't perceive any of the attacks or mean spirited accusations from the OP. Is it just because I agree with him? Or that I don't have anything personally at stake?

Do suggestions to improve the product have to be presented in a form that is acceptable to the readers and members from now on? What is that form?

I just read the OP again and simply do not find anything offensive, and perhaps that's because I'm such a new user, but it might also be that there simply isn't anything offensive there to begin with.

So I have suggestion, when someone makes a suggestion and there is word or two, or a phrase that may not be absolutely perfect, look to the essence of what is being presented.

I read a suggestion to make the product easier to use for non-techies. Hey great suggestion.

It's a little more complicated than that as I found out but shutting down those ideas will only hurt SD in the long.

And isn't making The Squeeze Box the best product it can be the reason we are all here to begin with?

Best to all

Larry

snarlydwarf
2006-07-12, 18:30
I'm just curious as to what happened here. I didn't perceive any of the attacks or mean spirited accusations from the OP. Is it just because I agree with him? Or that I don't have anything personally at stake?

Well, I differ: this particular thread got off on a somewhat different tact. Even the subject sounds derogatory.


Do suggestions to improve the product have to be presented in a form that is acceptable to the readers and members from now on? What is that form?


As the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And that is true of software as well (open source or not: though more true with open source in that you have better access to developers).

If you want something to change, bring it up nicely, and if you can, get someone who can code interested in your problem. Let them see that adding a WidgoMatic plugin would be cool and useful and they will want to code it.

That said, keep realistic with the goals of what you want: some things are Big Problems... The Universal Doall Music Server/CD Ripper/Burner/AlbumArtgetter is not likely to happen. (It brings up not only technical issues involving a ton of code to debug and support, but also legal issues such as licensing mp3 encoders, album art, etc.)

Avoid things like "I have 939 years experience in the Widget Industry," and other condescending comments: it only turns people off, "Okay, if you know so much, go do it.."

Look at how Erland's plugins have developed over the past few months: they are really quite impressive. But the growth has been mostly because the comments have been polite and complimentary... of course he enjoys working on them when he not only gets ideas for how to improve them, he's reminded that his work is... appreciated.

Or how the MusicInfo screensaver has become the "I can replace all your screensavers" toy that it is. The requests are all, "wow, I can do anything with this ... I wonder if it could handle scores from High School football games..." And magically a day later, it does...

I'm not saying that you need to brown-nose KDF... that would probably annoy him. :P But try asking with a "hey, would this work" sort of attitude instead of "you all suck if you don't see it my way!" (Again, your thread started off great: you made suggestions and the comments seemed more civil. So, yeah, some of this is speaking-to-the choir, and lots of the "you's" are referring to "the reader" in general and not specifically... you. :P)

I guess the main thing is to remember it is All About The Music. Yes, we all have wishlists, we all want things, but ... sometimes we have to remember as powerful as music is... it is only music. If a song skips it is annoying, but, it's just a song skipping... our life isn't going to end and we don't need to be rude reporting the problem.

wunder
2006-07-12, 19:21
I'm just curious as to what happened here. I didn't perceive any of the attacks or mean spirited accusations from the OP. Is it just because I agree with him? Or that I don't have anything personally at stake?

I believe my poorly worded thread title is most of the culprit. I meant it as a fellow bithead- I didn't mean it as a putdown. My mistake! I've apologized on the forum for this- unfortunately, I can't edit the title of the post. Those who have put in blood and sweat into the product didn't appreciate (or understand) my intent. I think I raised the bloodpressure and clouded the impression/content of my post.

MrSinatra
2006-07-12, 19:23
Well, I differ: this particular thread got off on a somewhat different tact. Even the subject sounds derogatory.
this is just my opinion, and it in no way devalues yours, but i don't see how it is even possible to misconstrue the words of the first post as being in any way disrespectful, or bearing malice or anything of the sort.

i see no negative intent whatsoever.

i think the reaction to it however, was completely unwarranted.

aubuti
2006-07-12, 19:50
Can people help to put this OP's suggestion in context of competitors. What software Ripping, Tagging and Album Art software comes bundled with competitive products ?


those that come with music match do for example.
I don't follow -- are you saying that music match competes with SB? I haven't used MM in a couple years, but last I saw it served a completely different function. Maybe a complementary function (ripping/tagging/art grabbing/playing), but not competitive.

MrSinatra
2006-07-12, 19:54
i am not making a qualitative judgment... a factual question was asked, a factual answer was given.

some products similar to SB come with music match... some with itunes, etc...

no hidden meanings.

as an aside, i got my Dad the RCA lyra, b/c its "his speed" (he's 70+) and b/c the remote is infinitely better, works anywhere in the house. it perfectly integrates with MM.

having said that, i love my SB.

aubuti
2006-07-12, 20:03
okay, now I follow. I thought you were saying that MM *is* the competitive product, not the software that comes with the competitive product. And indeed, the question was about what software comes with competing products, not about what competing products bundle software.

MrSinatra
2006-07-12, 20:12
i should clarify, this is the specific lyra wireless product i meant:

http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI700436,00.html

apparently there are several totally different products rca calls "lyra."

this one doesn't need or use a wireless router, just usb. and for my dad who needs simplicity, the tight integration with the remote and MM is seamless. he can barely cut and paste, but that doesn't stop him from getting this to work for him.

it would be nice if SD could figure out a way to give the same out of box ease of use and simplicity for users like my dad, for many obvious reasons.

its also available for around $20 shipped... again an important consideration for noobs.

danco
2006-07-13, 00:35
I wonder what sort of wireless quality the lyra has. I've tried wireless headphones and speakers, and it's clear that the quality of the wireless (apart from the sound system itself) is not good.

It's PC only, which is fine for many people, but is not what the Slim people want to produce. Also limited in the formats it will play.

I'm not sure whether I would have got the Squeezebox had I owned a PC. But as a Mac user, it was almost the only choice - and excellent it is too.

By the way, I'm 70+ myself - speed and age aren't necessarily correlated.

agentsmith
2006-07-13, 01:56
getting artwork...lots of options. SOAP
via Amazon springs to mind.

KDF, could you guide me to where I can automatically grab artwork via amazon?

I tried goggling and got results like "Amazon.com: Making Transparent Soap: The Art of Crafting, Molding ..."

Sorry to be thick.

MrSinatra
2006-07-13, 02:09
KDF, could you guide me to where I can automatically grab artwork via amazon?

I tried goggling and got results like "Amazon.com: Making Transparent Soap: The Art of Crafting, Molding ..."

Sorry to be thick.

i never got the soap thing to work.

i use WMP. look for instructions in the "artwork artwork artwork" thread.

Patrick Dixon
2006-07-13, 02:09
KDF, could you guide me to where I can automatically grab artwork via amazon?

I tried goggling and got results like "Amazon.com: Making Transparent Soap: The Art of Crafting, Molding ..."

Sorry to be thick.Try:-
http://www.victorland.com/slimp3/

Patrick Dixon
2006-07-13, 02:14
Can people help to put this OP's suggestion in context of competitors.

What software Ripping, Tagging and Album Art software comes bundled with competitive products ?
Howabout iTunes/iPod?

You could argue that it's not a competitor I guess, but iPod/SB are both serving computer based music, so they are in a similar market area if not quite in the same segment. An iPod + Docking station is an alternative to a SB for some people.

In any event, if no competitor does it, and it's a 'good thing' in the eyes of the customer, then it's a market opportunity.

MrSinatra
2006-07-13, 02:19
I wonder what sort of wireless quality the lyra has. I've tried wireless headphones and speakers, and it's clear that the quality of the wireless (apart from the sound system itself) is not good.

It's PC only, which is fine for many people, but is not what the Slim people want to produce. Also limited in the formats it will play.

I'm not sure whether I would have got the Squeezebox had I owned a PC. But as a Mac user, it was almost the only choice - and excellent it is too.

By the way, I'm 70+ myself - speed and age aren't necessarily correlated.

imo, it sounds exceptionally good, but for those who care there is no digital output.

it'll play anything music match will play. and while i agree it has a different goal then slim has, it undoubtably is suitable for a much larger possible market than SB/SS is. it is the easy solution people so often speak of, or at least, the easiest i know of. and it really is easy.

in my case, i don't want just easy, i also want powerful. but the vast majority wants easy out of the box ready, and it does that just fine. as long as something doesn't sound noticeably bad, most people are happy with it.

mac has a similar thing, except it uses a router. their device even has a built in print server, and of course, it works with itunes.

i'm not saying any one of these is better tahn the other, i am saying that for people who need ease and simple competence, the lyra is far and away the better solution. conversely, for those like myself who are prepared to pay extra for the power, features, and quality of SB, its better.

MrSinatra
2006-07-13, 02:22
Howabout iTunes/iPod?

You could argue that it's not a competitor I guess, but iPod/SB are both serving computer based music, so they are in a similar market area if not quite in the same segment. An iPod + Docking station is an alternative to a SB for some people.

In any event, if no competitor does it, and it's a 'good thing' in the eyes of the customer, then it's a market opportunity.

this is a better example, and its what i was talking about earlier:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/1.RSLID?mco=7D88DA55&nplm=M9470LL%2FA

pretty nifty hardware, but i HATE itunes.

MrSinatra
2006-07-13, 02:27
By the way, I'm 70+ myself - speed and age aren't necessarily correlated.

and they aren't necessarily not... but, i didn't say they were, altho in my dads case vis a vis computers, they are.

;)

bpa
2006-07-13, 02:47
The point about my question was that I know about some products but not recent packaging.

I know that the near competitors such as Noxon, Homepod and Roku didn't come with software but suggested what software would work and where to download it. I believe Philips have their own proprietary software and bundle it.

I am not sure about MP3 players but I have an iRiver H320 - it didn't come with software but again it said what s/w could be used.

I think the market for these Squeezebox/"Media renderers" devices is changing as a result of popularity of iPod type and MP3 players in phones. The sophistication of the Squeezebox devices has also grown from basic SliMP3 to high quality SB3 - perversely the type of customer is also changing from technical users who enjoy the DIY nature to users who want the MS/Apple approach. So the user's expectation of the product bundle has also changed especillay in the last year. Some parallels could be drawn with digital cameras - initially very technical - now for the masses.

The users don't want to read much documentnation (e.g. PC installation changed from a manual to one page with small amount of text), users just want to turn it on, let it go and listen to music ASAP. Many don't really worry about formats or tagging until they get to know and use the product in earnest and then find out the significance of format and tagging.

On competitive products forums it looks like most of the user are happy to use iTunes or WMP and their problem are mainly WiFi, DRM related or unsupported formats.

One approach in the slimserver context would be as part of installation for absolute beginners (or users who have no ripped files) would be to provide a Wizard and help user create a library of ripped CDs (in an appropriate format and tagged) using WMP on Windows or iTunes on Apple as these are default installations. This could be as simple as providing a one page set of instructions rather than expecting the new user to look for and then find the Beginner's entry in Wiki.

Siduhe
2006-07-13, 02:56
KDF, could you guide me to where I can automatically grab artwork via amazon?

I tried goggling and got results like "Amazon.com: Making Transparent Soap: The Art of Crafting, Molding ..."

Sorry to be thick.

The Amazon / Artwork feature is integrated into Tag&Rename, if you have a Windows set up. You just select files, hit F10, select which Amazon store you want to search, find the relevant album, tick the boxes relating to artwork and press save.

stevo
2006-07-13, 03:41
I thought that I would comment since I am a new user, less than a week. It's working like a dream now and I learnt quite a bit setting it up, especially about wireless networks. But quite a few people wouldn't have the patience or basic computer knowledge to get it to work without help.

I think that there is probably a simple route and more difficult or complex approaches.

In terms of a simple approach I loaded up iTunes and set it up to Apple lossless. I looked at FLAC etc and it just seemed a little confusing. iTunes didn't cost me and I have used it before, as many people have. I think that the bitheads would go for the FLAC setup, but iTunes is working for me.

SlimServer loaded up without any problems just following the Owners Guide.

The biggest strength of Squeezebox is also it's biggest weakness - wireless networks! Wireless networks, for many people, are a foreign language. I have a friend that doesn't even know his wireless network password! I find them a little confusing but I am very persistent.

I had a few problems, like firewalls, wireless router settings, and the channel number - it appears that I had possible interference from another nearby network coinciding with setting up the SB.

All the information was available to sort out firewalls etc both in the manual and on the website. I did play around with the wireless router settings since I was constantly having all my network devices disconnecting and reconnecting and found that changing the channel number from the default 6 to 11 fixed the problem.

So not only do I have to know how to use iTunes, SlimServer and the SqueezeBox, but I also need to have a reasonable knowledge of wireless networks!

Maybe 3 or 4 clear examples in the Owners Guide (with pictures for those that are not too keen on reading manuals) showing the SB3 / SlimServer layout and settings, as well as software options for ripping and organising music would be good. The trouble is that there are so many possibilities! It would be good to highlight the quickest way to get things up and running. I think that the last Mac or Dell I bought had very simple pictures on how to set it up and get it running.

Album covers pretty much died for me when cd's came in (showing my age). I can always pull the cd out of storage and have a look.

Back to the music - I'm hooked! I've loaded around 100 cd's so far and am enjoying Lakme at the moment, mixed in with Nelly Furtado, Van Morrison, U2 and BB King - it's just amazing. I am flying down to Adelaide to listen to some speakers and have a short break this weekend. These things, once they are set up, rip. I could go on and on..........

regards
Steve

Victor
2006-07-13, 09:36
KDF, could you guide me to where I can automatically grab artwork via amazon?

I tried goggling and got results like "Amazon.com: Making Transparent Soap: The Art of Crafting, Molding ..."

Sorry to be thick.

<plug type=shameless>
I've written some software that makes this easy (easier?) to do . Check out: http://victorland.com/slimp3
</plug>

Zten
2006-07-13, 11:20
maybe it just should. I feel compelled to comment as a pretty casual observer (you guys do all the heavy lifting!). The bulk of this is just electronic misunderstanding. If folks were talking face to face or even just talking on the phone, this all would have been a non-event. Maybe the simple "smiley face" would have prevented the misunderstanding, maybe not. Interesting how no one from Slim chimed in. They know they have a good thing going with all these unpaid yet very passionate engineers developing SW and in some cases even HW for them.... :o)

For the record, I love my squeezebox and despite its non-idiot proof setup and usage, I talk it up to all my friends. I have paid the price with my own time being used to help friends get their SB going. So, I also am an unpaid consultant!

However, as I posted many months ago, I think the main reason Slim does not market the product through the mainstream is becuase they realize it is not idiot-proof enough yet. Their call center would be inundated and they would have returned SBes coming at them by the truckload if they got agressive on the price and marketed the SB through mainstream channels. I bet they are working on pulling together all the great stuff you guys have done and will one day soon get very rich on a more idiot-proof SB, although I bet they are doing pretty well even now! :o)

Koenraadr
2006-07-13, 16:39
Zten, you are so right, I was getting ready to post but u got there 1st. I am a very, very satisfied SB3 user. But none of my friends except an avid Linux user have adopted the SB. I keep helping out with iPODs for friends tho.

LHawes
2006-07-13, 18:35
If folks were talking face to face or even just talking on the phone, this all would have been a non-event. Maybe the simple "smiley face" would have prevented the misunderstanding, maybe not. Interesting how no one from Slim chimed in.:o)

Yeah - Bravo - Zten. It's so easy to read into a post that which was not intended. So why not read into each post the best of intentions? Well, why not?

Zten
2006-07-14, 11:33
Yeah - Bravo - Zten. It's so easy to read into a post that which was not intended. So why not read into each post the best of intentions? Well, why not?

I don't know. Just human nature I guess. Its not a jab at anyone. Just an observation. I am an engineer (and manager) by profession and I see the same thing all the time at my work.

I think the TRUE root cause of all this is PASSION! The un-paid developers working for Slim are amazingly passionate. They truly care about the product and feel as though they are part owners in its success.

I have seen hyper-passionate engineers and complacent engineers. Even though I have to coddle the hyper-passionate ones frequently, they are the BEST! I'd take a whole team of them any time and develop a product and make it the best product ever with the fastest development cycle time ever. I'd just have to get a secondary degree in human psychology before starting on it! :o)

Steven Moore
2006-07-14, 12:24
SlimServer needs an interface which does:....

I'm not advocating getting rid of the freewheeling plug-in crazy slimdevice universe, just add a simplified all-in-one software package for non-techies.

This was the main point that I think has been skipped over.
Maybe because I'm a Mac user but we like our gui interfaces, the web interface just feels clunky. A dedicated application would be easier for new users to use and troubleshoot.
This is the only aspect of the squeezebox in which I was really disappointed.
Of course It would cost money but once you have easy to use applications for mac, windows and linux I think you will sell more units. I feel the apps development costs will be met by more sales. I have no evidence for this just instinct.

stinkingpig
2006-07-14, 12:43
On 7/14/06, Steven Moore <
Steven.Moore.2ay9nn1152905101 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> wunder Wrote:
> > SlimServer needs an interface which does:....
> >
> > I'm not advocating getting rid of the freewheeling plug-in crazy
> > slimdevice universe, just add a simplified all-in-one software package
> > for non-techies.
>
> This was the main point that I think has been skipped over.
> Maybe because I'm a Mac user but we like our gui interfaces, the web
> interface just feels clunky. A dedicated application would be easier
> for new users to use and troubleshoot.
> This is the only aspect of the squeezebox in which I was really
> disappointed.
> Of course It would cost money but once you have easy to use
> applications for mac, windows and linux I think you will sell more
> units. I feel the apps development costs will be met by more sales. I
> have no evidence for this just instinct.
>
>
http://www.rusticrhino.com/drlovegrove/
http://www.herger.net/slim/detail.php?nr=912&kategorie=slim
http://www.slimdevices.com/dev_telcanto.html

--
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
So across the Western ocean I must wander" -- traditional

bflatmajor
2006-07-14, 13:50
Damn,

I've never had that happened to me before!!
I never believed that it could happened.
I've always heard of athletes and movie stars claiming that 'they were misquoted'

But to actually see it in an internet forum, is really something new!!

If you don't believe me, read my original reply on the first page, then continue reading other replies and you will see..

Does this mean that I have finally arrived!! :-)

I'm famous.. or infamous :-)

Zten
2006-07-14, 14:03
Damn,

I've never had that happened to me before!!
I never believed that it could happened.
I've always heard of athletes and movie stars claiming that 'they were misquoted'

But to actually see it in an internet forum, is really something new!!

If you don't believe me, read my original reply on the first page, then continue reading other replies and you will see..

Does this mean that I have finally arrived!! :-)

I'm famous.. or infamous :-)

Wow, You are right. I missed that the first time! KDF thought you were the one making baseless marketing claims when actually it was Wunder! Oh well, I bet Wunder is right, though. ;o)

I think it sounds great too, dude! I can't say how it compares to other streaming networked players (as I am spoiled and only have ever heard the SB on my system), but I can say for a FACT that it sounds better streaming FLACs than my old CD player ever sounded.

kdf
2006-07-14, 14:08
Wow, You are right. I missed that the first time! KDF thought you were the one making baseless marketing claims

incorrect.

Zten
2006-07-14, 14:17
[QUOTE=kdf]Quoting wunder <wunder.2augmb1152727501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

>
> bflatmajor Wrote:

> I agree, but their current potential market is about 5% of the
> population.

Looks like the forum makes it look its quoting Wunder, who was quoting Bflatmajor, who said : I agree, but their current potential market is about 5% of the population. But Bflat bnever said it. It was Wunder who said it.

Looks like we need to ream the Slim guys for making the forum work poorly.

Oh well, the SqueezeBox ROCKS even if the forum has its pitfalls! ;o)

kdf
2006-07-14, 14:24
Quoting Zten <Zten.2ayezb1152912001 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

>> Looks like we need to ream the Slim guys for making the forum work
>> poorly.
>>
>> Oh well, the SqueezeBox ROCKS even if the forum has its pitfalls! ;o)

no one needs to be reamed. Unless, of course, they are into that.
the forum does a very good job of mixing two worlds: forum and email.
It isn't easy, and it isn't perfect. But without it, the forum/email
battles would probably have killed any chance of anyone getting a
question answered.

In this case, I simply did not cut out as much text as I should have.

-k