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cjhabs
2006-03-22, 05:25
So my 3 month experience with the SB3 has gone from initial problems to being happy to now being ready to throw it out.

Ready to kick back for an hour last night and listen to some random mix - the SB3 had no display - no time/date - which means it couldn't communicate with SlimServer. I'd had this a lot under 6.2.1 with FW28 and had to go through the network setup (without changing anything) to re-establish the connection.
Since upgrading to a 6.2.2 nightly and FW35 the problem had gone away.

This time re-doing the settings made no difference. Nor did unplugging/replugging the unit, nor did unplugging/replugging the unit followed by re-doing settings (many times). I also restarted SlimServer, rebooted the PC.

The SB3 connects to the wireless network - I know this because Squeeze Network works.

My error is:
Power up SB3
Connecting to wireless network
Waking up SlimServer
Connecting to SlimServer
Connecting to wireless network
Powers off

I am running SB3 wireless with WPA Personal.
I have a wireless repeater right next to the SB3. I installed this to remedy drop outs when playing FLAC files - it has worked great for a couple of months.

SlimServer is on a Windows XP laptop, SP2. Again this setup has been working great for a couple of months.
I turned off the Firewall - still can't connect.
I turned off the Anti-Virus - still can't connect.
I checked if any recent XP updates had been applied - none.

I can probably get this going again by trying:
A new nightly upgrade (is there newer FW than 35?)
Reset SB3 to factory and re-configure.
Run Ethereal and see if there's a TCP/IP issue.
Rewire the house to use cat-6 :-)
Troll the forums for other suggestions.

But in all honesty, I'd already spent hours resolving my wireless drop outs. I work with computers all day so the last thing I want is to come home and spend all night debugging these issues.

So I guess my question is has someone seen this and know how to fix it quickly?

Just venting - its the last thing I needed last night - I feel like a beta tester!!!!

Habs

mherger
2006-03-22, 05:50
> The SB3 connects to the wireless network - I know this because Squeeze
> Network works.

That's good to know!

> SlimServer is on a Windows XP laptop, SP2. Again this setup has been
> working great for a couple of months.

It has been. Is it still running? Can you access the server's web page
(http://yourserver:9000/)? Can you access this same page from another
computer?

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Help translate SlimServer by using the
SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)

cjhabs
2006-03-22, 09:39
It has been. Is it still running? Can you access the server's web page
(http://yourserver:9000/)? Can you access this same page from another
computer?


Yes, I can access the web page and browse the music collection from the server itself.
I have not tried it from a remote machine.

When I get home I'll also try SoftSqueeze.

joek
2006-03-22, 11:59
I had a similar problem with my SB3 a couple of weeks ago. Frustrating experience! Although, slimserver was working fine from the web interface I bounced the processes (Linux) and everything worked again.

I have never really seen SlimDevices respond to stability issues that customers continually bring up. We all know that there are repeatable problems. There should be patch releases that fix bugs in the current release and not just put into a un-released nightly build.

I am running 6.2.1 and waiting for the next official release. Like you, I rather listen to the music to tinker with it.

kdf
2006-03-22, 12:23
Quoting joek <joek.2534i01143054002 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

> I have never really seen SlimDevices respond to stability issues that
> customers continually bring up. We all know that there are repeatable
> problems. There should be patch releases that fix bugs in the current
> release and not just put into a un-released nightly build.

a patch release is EXACTLY what the 6.2.2 builds are. They are not
"official" until certain target problems are solved (ie, Slim responds
to issues).

-k

cjhabs
2006-03-22, 16:53
OK - I'm a happier camper now. The first thing I tried worked.

I did a factory reset of the SB3, re-entered EXACTLY the same networking information and everything was OK.

How can something like this happen?

Habs

Ben Sandee
2006-03-22, 17:28
On 3/22/06, cjhabs <cjhabs.253i5o1143071702 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> OK - I'm a happier camper now. The first thing I tried worked.
>
> I did a factory reset of the SB3, re-entered EXACTLY the same
> networking information and everything was OK.
>
> How can something like this happen?


Cosmic rays.

joek
2006-03-22, 19:52
Quoting joek <joek.2534i01143054002 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

> I have never really seen SlimDevices respond to stability issues that
> customers continually bring up. We all know that there are repeatable
> problems. There should be patch releases that fix bugs in the current
> release and not just put into a un-released nightly build.

a patch release is EXACTLY what the 6.2.2 builds are. They are not
"official" until certain target problems are solved (ie, Slim responds
to issues).

-k

The last offical release 6.2.1 was over 4 months ago on Nov. 16, 2005. I am hopeful that a new official release is coming out shortly that fixes some of the ignoring bugs.

stinkingpig
2006-03-22, 20:37
joek wrote:
> kdf Wrote:
>
>> Quoting joek <joek.2534i01143054002 (AT) no-mx (DOT)
>> forums.slimdevices.com>:
>>
>>
>>> I have never really seen SlimDevices respond to stability issues that
>>> customers continually bring up. We all know that there are repeatable
>>> problems. There should be patch releases that fix bugs in the current
>>> release and not just put into a un-released nightly build.
>>>
>> a patch release is EXACTLY what the 6.2.2 builds are. They are not
>> "official" until certain target problems are solved (ie, Slim responds
>>
>> to issues).
>>
>> -k
>>
>
> The last offical release 6.2.1 was over 4 months ago on Nov. 16, 2005.
> I am hopeful that a new official release is coming out shortly that
> fixes some of the ignoring bugs.
>
>
>
There aren't any ignoring bugs, or ignored bugs. There are a lot that
are fixed in 6.2.2, which hasn't been officially released because of
issues with the firmware that affect some wireless access point
combinations.

If they release 6.2.2 now, the people with affected WAPs yell about
product quality. If they don't, people in your situation yell about
product quality. Lose-lose situation. Ain't software great? So in an
attempt to please the most people most of the time, they make the fixes
available on an "unofficial" basis. The not-released nightly is to scare
off unsuspecting people with affected WAPs, while people with current
problems can be pointed to the latest.

Obviously it's not perfect, but if you've got a better solution, I'm
sure SDI will be all ears.

Somewhat OT: I'm starting to think that an Open Source Project
Obligatory Checklist might be in order... something like this:
http://www.monkeynoodle.org/comp/politics_obChecklist

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip Since 1996

cjhabs
2006-03-23, 08:00
This thread seems to have drifted a little.
Anyway - just a quick update.
On my way out of the door this morning I noticed that the SB3 again had a blank screen.
I had just started a clear database/rescan on the SlimServer. I don't know if that caused it or if it had lost connection earlier. I also don't know if it'll come back after the rescan completes.

I'll run a few tests when I get home and post back - maybe some useful info can be gleaned from this.

Habs

slimdemage
2006-03-23, 12:37
"I have never really seen SlimDevices respond to stability issues that customers continually bring up. We all know that there are repeatable problems."

So sad, and so true. After wasting many hours of my own time trying to make this product function as advertised I returned it for a full refund. I check back on this site a few times a week, notice the official release is still 6.2.1, and then shake my head in continued disgust. I hope each time I check that I will see a major upgrade, and posts from people saying "this thing finally works!" But no. This is a smoke and mirrors company, and product. They should PAYING US to do all this testing. There is no excuse for selling such poor products and wasting consumers' time. I hope in the near future the company re-structures to create solid products and honor their customers.

Robin Bowes
2006-03-23, 15:40
slimdemage wrote:
> "I have never really seen SlimDevices respond to stability issues that
> customers continually bring up. We all know that there are repeatable
> problems."
>
> So sad, and so true. After wasting many hours of my own time trying to
> make this product function as advertised I returned it for a full
> refund. I check back on this site a few times a week, notice the
> official release is still 6.2.1, and then shake my head in continued
> disgust. I hope each time I check that I will see a major upgrade, and
> posts from people saying "this thing finally works!" But no. This is a
> smoke and mirrors company, and product. They should PAYING US to do all
> this testing. There is no excuse for selling such poor products and
> wasting consumers' time. I hope in the near future the company
> re-structures to create solid products and honor their customers.

At the risk of feeding the troll...

Ask any of the many satisfied customers whether "this thing finally
works" - it does.

You seem to be one of the few who have had such major problems.

The products *are* solid and *most* slimdevices customers are very happy.

YMOV. [1]

R.

[1] Your mileage obviously varied.

cjhabs
2006-03-24, 05:33
Update to my problem.
My SB3 did not come back to life after rescanning. A factory reset of SB3 and re-enter exactly same networking info and again its back up and working.
This morning it was still up - as it had been for the past 6 weeks since updating to FW35.

I'll keep an eye on it during my next clean/rescan, but I don't believe that's the problem as I've done it many times in the past with no problem.

Habs

Pale Blue Ego
2006-03-24, 06:03
I'm not speaking of your specific problem cjhabs, but in general it seems that the most frustrating problems people have are wireless-related and somewhat out of Slim's control.

I think as more wireless devices are deployed, it will become even more of a headache. Wireless technology is nifty in the lab, might be nifty if you live on a 40-acre ranch, but in a crowded city with dozens of devices and networks in one area sending signals at once, maybe not so great.

Then again, we've been using those whole-house phone systems for years and they NEVER lose contact with the base station...

cjhabs
2006-03-24, 06:28
In this case I don't believe that this problem has anything to do with the wireless networking. The SB3 connected to the wireless network successfully every time and SqueezeNetwork worked. It would not connect to the SlimServer.

Having said that, I am not in a position to try running the SB3 wired. From looking at the forums I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it worked flawlessly when wired.

Another observation from my initial efforts to get the SB3 running smoothly was that I feel that the wireless receiver circuitry is not as sensitive as say a laptop's wireless. My laptop (SlimServer) is about 15 feet away from the SB3 and I never have any wireless connectivity problems with it, even when the signal strength is low and throughput is 18Mbps. However the SB3 would not stream FLACs without dropouts until I configured a wireless repeater that sits right next to the unit.

On the plus side my laptop now has "Excellent" signal strength with the repeater in place.

Habs

slimdemage
2006-03-24, 14:43
"but in a crowded city with dozens of devices and networks in one area sending signals at once, maybe not so great."

Sorry but I feel this is a cop-out and bad excuse. I live in a major city and my wireless laptop works perfectly, everywhere! Even in the most dense areas of this major metropolis my wireless connectivity is perfect, from a budget Toshiba laptop. The Squeezebox product is total a mess, so please stop trying to blame the world on Slimdevices's embarrasing wireless implementation and poor QA.

lordypieman
2006-03-24, 15:17
"The Squeezebox product is total a mess"
Sorry, I simply can't agree with you at all. I love my SB2 because,
It works perfectly.
It doubles as a digital radio.
The sound quality is excellent.
The SB2 interface and remote are excellent (but I just wish there was a "back" button like on a browser. This would be useful when assembling playlists).
The PC is safe in the loft - I never have to go there, and it is unlikely to get pinched.
The forums are excellent for support and for bouncing ideas around - you'll get no support from the big manufacturers.
Regular firmware and software updates are freely available - refreshing my SB2 every few months.
And because it is not mainstream.

stinkingpig
2006-03-24, 15:58
slimdemage wrote:
> "but in a crowded city with dozens of devices and networks in one area
> sending signals at once, maybe not so great."
>
> Sorry but I feel this is a cop-out and bad excuse. I live in a major
> city and my wireless laptop works perfectly, everywhere! Even in the
> most dense areas of this major metropolis my wireless connectivity is
> perfect, from a budget Toshiba laptop. The Squeezebox product is total
> a mess, so please stop trying to blame the world on Slimdevices's
> embarrasing wireless implementation and poor QA.
>

You stream FLAC everywhere? Cool!

downloading web pages is not the same as streaming music.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip Since 1996

dhollar
2006-03-24, 18:54
I've just started experiencing (yesterday) a very similar problem to cjhabs. Everything had been working great for my first month with my SB3. I can still connect fine to Squeezenetwork but have problems staying connected to the slimserver - shortly after a song starts it struggles to keep the connection. I connect wirelessly but again the squeezenetork connection is great, leading me to think its not a wireless problem. I have tried all of the things mentioned in this thread .. restarting slimserver (6.2.1 on XP), factory reset of the SB3, softsqueeze (works fine) but with no success getting the SB3 to play again. Are there any other suggestions? cjhabs, was the reset the only you did to get your SB3 going again?

snarlydwarf
2006-03-24, 19:34
Is the server wired or wireless? Wireless will use twice the bandwidth of wired.

Are you running a firewall on the server? Is it one that -works-? NVIDIA's firewall apparently doesn't work, randomly mangling packets which breaks things.

dhollar
2006-03-24, 19:49
The server is wired. I've also turned off the firewall in trying to get this to work.

Pale Blue Ego
2006-03-24, 21:35
"but in a crowded city with dozens of devices and networks in one area sending signals at once, maybe not so great."

Sorry but I feel this is a cop-out and bad excuse. I live in a major city and my wireless laptop works perfectly, everywhere! Even in the most dense areas of this major metropolis my wireless connectivity is perfect, from a budget Toshiba laptop. The Squeezebox product is total a mess, so please stop trying to blame the world on Slimdevices's embarrasing wireless implementation and poor QA.

Fair enough. You may be right about the SB's wireless capabilities. All 5 of the Slim products I have are wired-only, so I'm in no position to judge their WiFi implementation. I just see that the wired SBs have very few problems while the WiFi setups have many, and automatically blamed it on WiFi in general and not Slim's end of it. My bad.

dhollar
2006-03-25, 06:44
Update to my problem:

I've reloaded the firmware (28 in my case) and I'm working again for now.

cjhabs
2006-03-25, 12:34
cjhabs, was the reset the only you did to get your SB3 going again?

Sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, the only thing I did was a factory reset of the SB3, re-entered the networking parameters and everything was OK.

cjhabs
2006-03-25, 12:36
Update to my problem:

I've reloaded the firmware (28 in my case) and I'm working again for now.

The reason I updated to FW35 (from FW28) was because I was constantly losing the connection to SlimServer. I thought the problem was cured with FW35 - but it's definitely better.

hifiresource
2006-03-27, 19:12
Let me know if you find a fix for this, I'm having the exact same problem and Slim support is not responding.

Bob

cjhabs
2006-03-27, 19:41
Let me know if you find a fix for this, I'm having the exact same problem and Slim support is not responding.

Bob

The problem seems to come and go. I've tried everything to reproduce it. I thought it may have something to do with rescanning or using a vpn connection on the server - but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm wondering if its something to do with wireless networks coming online nearby and the arp table getting corrupted. If it happens again I'll look if the available networks have changed.

I don;t have the option of switching to a wired connection. Are you running wireless?


Habs

jmpage2
2006-03-27, 19:54
The problem seems to come and go. I've tried everything to reproduce it. I thought it may have something to do with rescanning or using a vpn connection on the server - but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm wondering if its something to do with wireless networks coming online nearby and the arp table getting corrupted. If it happens again I'll look if the available networks have changed.

I don;t have the option of switching to a wired connection. Are you running wireless?


Habs

Thousands of people run the Squeezebox without such issues, it is certainly a wireless issue, possibly some incompatibility with your wireless AP. Maybe you can provide the make/model and FW of your access point to see if anyone else is running the same combination successfully or have had to tweak any settings in the AP setup.

A message to the people who go on and on about how their wireless cannot be the culprit because "their laptop works great on wireless". Your laptop is not streaming audio over the network and does not need to be continued to it continuously like the Squeezebox needs to be continually connected to the Slimserver, AND, for everyone who has a laptop that "works perfectly" someone else has a laptop/access-point combination that fails miserably to live up to expectations.

danco
2006-03-28, 00:33
Some people (I haven't tried it) report excellent results from using a HomePlug, which provides ethernet over the powerline. If wireless doesn't work well enough, and you can't use wired, this is worth considering.

cjhabs
2006-03-29, 06:30
A message to the people who go on and on about how their wireless cannot be the culprit because "their laptop works great on wireless". Your laptop is not streaming audio over the network and does not need to be continued to it continuously like the Squeezebox needs to be continually connected to the Slimserver, AND, for everyone who has a laptop that "works perfectly" someone else has a laptop/access-point combination that fails miserably to live up to expectations.

I purchased the SB3 specifically to stream hi quality audio wirelessly - which the SB3 is touted as being able to do - and does well most of the time - I have no regrets, it has changed my music listening habits completely - for the better.

However, any problems streaming music are generally much more noticable than hiccups with PC wireless networking, so if the device supports this, as a consumer product, it should do it robustly.

A message to the people who go on and on about how their SB cannot be the culprit because "it's the best thing since sliced bread", the release of 6.2.2 is waiting on FW fixes for wireless issues, so maybe it is a SB problem :-)

I really appreciate the information provided by everyone on these forums as it helps solve a lot of problems and makes for a better product in the long run.

Habs

slimdemage
2006-03-29, 10:58
Previous posts mention the SB2 working well via wireless, and the possible use of ethernet over power lines? Can anyone else comment on either of these? Is the SB2 WiFi more solid than SB3? I am hoping to have a working Squeezebox one day. I bought an SB3 then returned it after the wireless failed, so I am waiting until I hear the problems are really fixed. I currently have my Toshiba/Audigy laptop streaming music wirelessly and without gaps in between tracks (LAME VBR MP3's), but it is bulky when compared to the idea of a working Squeezebox. It was the Squeezebox product that inspired me to turn my laptop into a wireless music player, but at this point I feel my solution works far better in terms of wireless reliability and album playback with no gaps. Any comments about the SB2's wireless being superior to SB3, or using ethernet over power lines would be helpful. I am trying to avoid the major hassle I went through last time before I attempt to purchase a Squeezebox again.

dhollar
2006-03-29, 13:34
I don't think the problem is specific to the router but rather is specific to the connection with slimserver. When I'm experiencing this problem I can still connect and listen to streams on Squeezenetwork without any problem - all wirelessly. My Slimserver PC is wired and my SB3 is wireless.

hifiresource
2006-03-31, 15:32
In myy case it is definitely using WPA that is the problem with my Motorola Sufboard 900.. I switched to 64 bit WEP and it stays connected eternally. Switch back to WPA and it drops within 15 minutes

snarlydwarf
2006-03-31, 15:41
And in slimdemage's case, it was "wireless card was broken".

Electronics stuff breaks all the time. The only thing that makes it forgivable is that the failure rate diminishes over time for a long period. (ie, some X devices will fail in the first 10 minutes, some smaller number in the first day, and a still smaller number in the next week or month.)

The problem in that case was fixed as soon as the wireless card was replaced....

I'd say: relax -- despite some acidic posts, didn't Slim honor their 30 guarantee? Doesn't that prove that they'll do their best if a component fails? (Compare with a certain other manufacturer that mis-sent a "This is the idiot that wrote a bad review" to someone who asked, after months, why he hadn't received his credit for returned merchandise..)

MrStan
2006-04-01, 04:30
I have used wireless for some time using softsqueeze with mixed results. Intermittant dropouts and on one occassion complete loss of connection for a day even though I tried changing channels. Wireless appears to be unable to pass through some wall surfaces and relies upon scatter ot find it's way around your house and it is also liable to interference. mainly from Microwaves although I did notice that I lost connection every time a neighbour used her remote control to open her car. Yes, I know that in the UK these car remotes are no where near the same frequency but the effect was very reliable.

I have now moved to the second generation (85Mbs) HomePlug Ethernet over Mains and have had a stabile connection for the past three weeks. The product worked straight from the box and will even work across mains extensions providing they have to mains filtering within them.

I use mainly flac and can do file browsing and file transfer across the link simultaneously without problems. I might now take the final step and get a squeezebox now that I am happy with the connection.

hifiresource
2006-04-02, 20:05
Well my problem goes away as soon as I switch to WEP 64 bit. It seems that the SB2 is having a problem staying connected to my Motorola Surfboard 900 with WPA encryption. I've contacted Slimdevices tech support and they only said 'hmmmm, that's odd.....'. Hopefully they will get a Surfboard in the shop and troubleshoot. Looks like I'm doomed to WEP until then.

hifiresource
2006-05-06, 07:12
Good news, I found the culprit! I'm using a Motorola Surfboard900 as my wireless cable modem and the SB2 would drop after about 5-15 minutes, onle when WPA was enabled. The Motorola Surfboard is also connected to a Netgear 8 port switch which connects my wife's Mac G4, a Vonage VOIP router and SNAP server for backup. I disconnected all devices from the switch and the SB3 stayed connected for an hour. Great. So then I started to connect each device back into the switch one at a time.

Ultimately I found that the SB3 would disconnect only when the Snap Server was connected to the LAN. That's pretty bizarre, but why? Well, I went into the admin control panel for the Snap and found that I had NetBIOS enabled over TCP/IP and NetBEUI. I changed the setting so that it was enabled only over TCP/IP, rebooted the Snap and the SB3 and voila the SB3 stayed connected all night.

So, it seems that this has something to do with NetBIOS over NetBUI coming from the Snap server. Any ideas? I would assume that this setting causes the Snap to broacast something to all nodes on the LAN and is causing the SB to drop the connection.

Anyway, if you are having this disconnect problem, look for any devices on your LAN that are using NetBIOS enabled over NetBEUI

Malor
2006-05-07, 15:36
NetBEUI is a wire protocol, like the IP part of TCP/IP. It's just a format for data packets on an Ethernet. It's pretty simple and limited, but it works okay for a batch of computers that are locally connected. (it's not routable, so you can't use it to talk with stuff outside a local LAN.)

The bug here is probably in either the WPA encryption code on the router, or the WPA decryption code on the Squeezebox. The packet could be getting munged in either step, or in some combination of both.

The fact that it works okay in WEP mode makes me believe that both devices know they should ignore those packets normally.

If forced at gunpoint, I'd bet that it was something in the Squeezebox's WPA decryption routine that's not quite right. Even if the Motorola device is encrypting the packet 'wrong', I don't _think_ it should matter... the Squeezebox should detect the invalid packet type and throw it away. So that's where I'd look first, if I needed to fix the problem.

That is, however, an extremely unexpert opinion. And obviously, the easy solution is, "don't use NetBEUI anymore". :)

hifiresource
2006-05-10, 20:40
That is, however, an extremely unexpert opinion. And obviously, the easy solution is, "don't use NetBEUI anymore". :)

Amen, bro'