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Dave Horoschak
2006-02-18, 10:51
I'm just getting my SB3 up & running with all of the plug-ins, etc. to
my satisfaction and am now working on the arduous task of cleaning my
tags. I have already gone through using MusicBrainz and now 95% of my
collection has consistent files names and relatively clean tags.
However, I found that none of the files have genre tags anymore.

Two questions...

1. Any recommendations on how to get genres entered? I could go through
with a ID3-Tagit and lookup each album on FreeDB, but it seems like
there should be an easier way, considering the fact that most of the
tags are clean. What level of detail do most people put in their genre
tags? I have about 15k files, so generalizing them into Rock, Pop,
Classical, Heavy Metal, etc. is probably not granular enough.

2. I've been playing with MusicMagic and found that the playlists it
generates are very odd. How does MM generate the playlists? Is it
likely that the lack of genre tags is causing some problems?

Thanks.
- Dave

snarlydwarf
2006-02-18, 11:17
Genres are tricky. FreeDB has Genres, but they are completely random. (Why on earth is the last album I ripped, Red Hot and Gershwin listed as 'Soul'?)

With id3v2 tags, you're no longer limited to one-byte genres, you can have a string of whatever you want there, and with 'Multiple Items in Tags' set to something like ';' or '&', you can classify tracks with more than one genre (is it 'romantic' or 'piano'? Make it both!)

The actual content of the tag gets to be really personal, there isn't a good database of genres because, well, it gets to be touchy.

Siduhe
2006-02-18, 11:45
I couldn't agree with Snarlydwarf more. I tidied up all my tags using (mostly) MusicBrainz and some other lookup programs, but then immediately went back and redid all the Genre tags for two reasons:

1) Music classification is personal and genre tagging (IMHO) totally random. I've had each disc of a two disc album classified for genre totally differently. Also, I don't use some of the very common genre tags (Electronica for example).

2) I use multiple genre tags in Slimserver.

A good interface to use to redo your genre tags is Tag & Rename (30 day free trial). Speeds the whole process up.

Re: Music Magic, as far as I know it doesn't use the Genre information at all - it analyses and validates all your music using an algorithm and then matches those with similar results. If you're getting odd results, it may be worth checking your preferences and setting the "variety" options to low. Also, have you let MM analyse and validate the entire library - this can take a good while (overnight in my case) so it may be it hasn't finished reviewing everything yet ?

Pale Blue Ego
2006-02-18, 12:22
I believe MusicMagic needs to finish analyzing all your tracks in order to properly create moods according to song characteristics. It should do better once all tracks are analyzed.

As for Genres, it's truly a personal thing. I might classify "Free Bird" as "Classic Rock", somebody else might want to list it as "Southern Rock", "Hard Rock", or just "Rock".

How about a song by the Supremes - is it Pop, Soul, R&B, or Oldies?

The thing to do is try to establish a reasonable limit to the number of Genres you use. I have 46 different genres, which is probably too many, but I have wide tastes in music and a handful of oddball Genres like Cajun, Celtic, Comedy, Sound Effects, Spoken Word, etc.

Start with 12-20 defined Genres, then if you find you have a large amount of tracks that don't really fit one of the genres, create a new one. Like, I used to list all my ethnic music as just "World", but eventually I decided to split it into "Celtic", "Reggae", "Middle Eastern", etc.

Kyle
2006-02-18, 12:36
Music Magic analyzes your music and uses a proprietary algorithm to classify it. It pays no attention to genres, unless you choose to have certain genres excluded or included from playlists. It takes awhile to analyze all of your music, so you may not be getting lists based on all of your collection yet. Music Magic also has a tag editor that I find easier to use for some tasks than Tag&Rename, which I also use. Just highlight tracks you want to retag and right click to select the tagging function. You can retag a whole bunch of tracks at one time, and I find the interface easier to use than T&R. Tagging is kind of an ongoing process that you never seem to get perfect. I find myself tweaking it regularly. I don't use that many genres, but my collection is only about 4,500 tracks.

ceejay
2006-02-18, 13:37
I'll agree with the comments above and add ... personally I really enjoyed the process of going through my music and tagging it. Obviously its good if you do some crude tagging first (pick everything by one artist and tag it asRock or whatever) before getting more refined.

I certainly would not want to depend on someone elses idea of genres...

Ceejay

Michaelwagner
2006-02-18, 14:01
Often, it's a good excuse to re-listen to things you haven't heard in a while.

joek
2006-02-18, 15:22
I rip my cd's then check them with MP3TAG before moving the files to my slimserver music directory. I've used MP3TAG for some time and pretty happy with it. And it's free.

http://www.mp3tag.de/en/

I am in no way affiliated with them.

Dave Horoschak
2006-02-19, 10:20
Thank you to everyone who provided insight to my tagging question.

Before I start the process of using multiple genre tags - how are these
handled in the iPod? Does it recognize multiple genres, just take the
first one, or does is see the whole string as a genre?

I want to make sure I don't screw up my library for portable listening.

Thanks.
- Dave


Siduhe wrote:

>I couldn't agree with Snarlydwarf more. I tidied up all my tags using
>(mostly) MusicBrainz and some other lookup programs, but then
>immediately went back and redid all the Genre tags for two reasons:
>
>1) Music classification is personal and genre tagging (IMHO) totally
>random. I've had each disc of a two disc album classified for genre
>totally differently. Also, I don't use some of the very common genre
>tags (Electronica for example).
>
>2) I use multiple genre tags in Slimserver.
>
>A good interface to use to redo your genre tags is Tag & Rename (30 day
>free trial). Speeds the whole process up.
>
>Re: Music Magic, as far as I know it doesn't use the Genre information
>at all - it analyses and validates all your music using an algorithm
>and then matches those with similar results. If you're getting odd
>results, it may be worth checking your preferences and setting the
>"variety" options to low. Also, have you let MM analyse and validate
>the entire library - this can take a good while (overnight in my case)
>so it may be it hasn't finished reviewing everything yet ?
>
>
>
>

Michaelwagner
2006-02-19, 11:07
Before I start the process of using multiple genre tags - how are these handled in the iPod? Does it recognize multiple genres, just take the first one, or does is see the whole string as a genre?

I want to make sure I don't screw up my library for portable listening.
A very wise precaution.

The standard (such as it is) defines a way of listing multiple genres in one tag.

http://www.id3.org/id3v2.3.0.txt (search for TCON).

Slim didn't follow this "standard", which is, in fact, rather inflexible and only applies to genres. Slim used a ";" separator and allows this extension in other places too (e.g. artist).

Whether iTunes used the original standard (possible, but not Apple-like), Slims (very unlikely), or their own (most likely) needs to be researched. I don't know. I don't use iTunes. But in my estimation, you can't rely on the standards for this one. It needs actual experience from someone who'se been there.

hdarwen
2006-02-19, 12:35
iTunes will show the whole string as a genre ... it's annoying but you can
use smart playlists to get round it i guess. for this reason, when i convert
my FLACs to lossy, i only copy the first genre in the list.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Horoschak" <dth930 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [slim] Re: Tagging question


> Thank you to everyone who provided insight to my tagging question.
>
> Before I start the process of using multiple genre tags - how are these
> handled in the iPod? Does it recognize multiple genres, just take the
> first one, or does is see the whole string as a genre?
>
> I want to make sure I don't screw up my library for portable listening.
>
> Thanks.
> - Dave
>
>
> Siduhe wrote:
>
>>I couldn't agree with Snarlydwarf more. I tidied up all my tags using
>>(mostly) MusicBrainz and some other lookup programs, but then
>>immediately went back and redid all the Genre tags for two reasons:
>>
>>1) Music classification is personal and genre tagging (IMHO) totally
>>random. I've had each disc of a two disc album classified for genre
>>totally differently. Also, I don't use some of the very common genre
>>tags (Electronica for example).
>>
>>2) I use multiple genre tags in Slimserver.
>>
>>A good interface to use to redo your genre tags is Tag & Rename (30 day
>>free trial). Speeds the whole process up.
>>
>>Re: Music Magic, as far as I know it doesn't use the Genre information
>>at all - it analyses and validates all your music using an algorithm
>>and then matches those with similar results. If you're getting odd
>>results, it may be worth checking your preferences and setting the
>>"variety" options to low. Also, have you let MM analyse and validate
>>the entire library - this can take a good while (overnight in my case)
>>so it may be it hasn't finished reviewing everything yet ?
>>
>>
>>
>

Dan Sully
2006-02-19, 14:48
* Michaelwagner shaped the electrons to say...

>http://www.id3.org/id3v2.3.0.txt (search for TCON).
>
>Slim didn't follow this "standard", which is, in fact, rather
>inflexible and only applies to genres. Slim used a ";" separator and
>allows this extension in other places too (e.g. artist).

Actually we do follow that standard. We also added the flexible way of doing
genres, as we had seen people doing that in the "wild".

-D
--
<ZangTT> berkeley db - it's mostly about the hash()

Michaelwagner
2006-02-19, 15:49
so
(15)(25)(32)Electronic
would work?

I didn't know that. Thanks!

Dan Sully
2006-02-19, 16:11
* Michaelwagner shaped the electrons to say...

>so
>(15)(25)(32)Electronic
>would work?
>
>I didn't know that. Thanks!

Almost. The multiple genres are handled, but the refinement of Classical ->
Electronic isn't. I'll take a look at it.

-D
--
dd if=/dev/sarcasm of=/dev/clue

Dan Sully
2006-02-19, 17:18
* Dan Sully shaped the electrons to say...

>>so
>>(15)(25)(32)Electronic
>>would work?
>>
>>I didn't know that. Thanks!
>
>Almost. The multiple genres are handled, but the refinement of Classical ->
>Electronic isn't. I'll take a look at it.

Ok - the latest 6.5 nightly can handle the above now.

http://svn.slimdevices.com/trunk/server/lib/MP3/Info.pm?rev=6314&view=rev

-D
--
Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.

Michaelwagner
2006-02-19, 18:39
Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.

You have the best quotes. Do you have a generator creating them?


Ok - the latest 6.5 nightly can handle the above now.
Will it be fitted into the 6.2.2 nightly too? Or is it considered new function?

Dan Sully
2006-02-19, 20:11
* Michaelwagner shaped the electrons to say...

>Dan Sully Wrote:
>> Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
>
>You have the best quotes. Do you have a generator creating them?

I've colllected them over the years, and have them in a random generator.

>> Ok - the latest 6.5 nightly can handle the above now.
>Will it be fitted into the 6.2.2 nightly too? Or is it considered new
>function?

I want to give it a few days under 6.5 first.

If you're running under ActivePerl on Windows, or any other platform, you can
drop the MP3/Info.pm file from the SVN website into the existing file.

-D
--
<iNoah> all your base class are belong to us