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Scott
2006-02-08, 19:01
Congratulations.... this is truly fantastic.

sb

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/09/technology/circuits/09pogue.html

chrisla
2006-02-08, 19:21
Nice,

Is this a hardware only trick, or will it work with all slim players?
(softsqueeze et al)

-Chris

On 2/8/06, Scott <Scott.22xw6b (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> Congratulations.... this is truly fantastic.
>
> sb
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/09/technology/circuits/09pogue.html
>
>
> --
> Scott
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=229
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20894
>
>

sleepysurf
2006-02-08, 19:25
GREAT article. My kudos as well to Sean, and the entire Slim team. Just hoping the upcoming "run" on Squeezeboxes won't overwhelm the tech support guy(s) with the usual... "Help, I can't connect to my wireless network" cries!

seanadams
2006-02-08, 19:44
Thanks guys! Pandora is going to be huge - no doubt the biggest thing to happen to music since Napster.

If you haven't tried it yet, just go to http://www.pandora.com and punch in a song you like. It pretty much blew my mind the first time I used it, and it just keeps getting better as you make more stations and fine-tune them.

More details coming on the exact launch schedule... it's really close though.

seanadams
2006-02-08, 19:46
Nice,

Is this a hardware only trick, or will it work with all slim players?
(softsqueeze et al)


It's a SqueezeNetwork feature, so you'll need SB2 or SB3. I can't promise Softsqueeze support, but it's possible.

shvejk
2006-02-08, 20:18
On 2/8/06, seanadams <seanadams.22xy9b (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> It's a SqueezeNetwork feature, so you'll need SB2 or SB3. I can't


A SqueezeNetwork feature? Interesting.....
Can you give us more details? Server based DRM support?

And please, improve the SqueezeNetwork - SlimServer login/logout interface.
It is far from being slick.....

Thank you!

andyg
2006-02-08, 20:33
It's a SqueezeNetwork-only feature because the interface to Pandora is proprietary. SN allows us to write closed-source plugins that can take advantage of things that wouldn't be possible in the open source server.

seanadams
2006-02-08, 20:38
A SqueezeNetwork feature? Interesting.....
Can you give us more details?

It's really simple. You'll add your pandora account in Squeezenetwork settings, and then from the Squeezebox UI you'll see "Pandora Radio" at the top level. Press right and choose to either view your stations or create a new one by searching for artists or songs.

You can skip tracks and rate songs up or down, much the same as Pandora's flash interface.


Server based DRM support?

It's not DRM in the usual sense, but yes there are reasons why we probably won't put this in SlimServer. Pandora uses standard mp3 streaming with no encryption, because (as i understand it) their deal with the record companies makes them more like an internet radio provider rather than a music store (really smart).



And please, improve the SqueezeNetwork - SlimServer login/logout interface.
It is far from being slick.....


Point well taken. Among our longer-term goals is to make the SqueezeNetwork vs SlimServer distinction irrelevant/invisible, so you'll just get whatever you want to listen to without worrying about where it's coming from.

Kyle
2006-02-08, 20:42
What is the quality of the stream?

andyg
2006-02-08, 20:45
All of Pandora's mp3 files are 128k.

shvejk
2006-02-08, 20:52
On 2/8/06, andyg <andyg.22y0cb (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> It's a SqueezeNetwork-only feature because the interface to Pandora is
> proprietary. SN allows us to write closed-source plugins that can take
> advantage of things that wouldn't be possible in the open source server.


I know SlimServer is open source, but firmware is not.
Could it be done is firmware (hypothetically)?

BTW XMRadio interface is proprietary as well...

Thanks,

shvejk
2006-02-08, 20:56
On 2/8/06, seanadams <seanadams.22y11c (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> Among our longer-term goals is to make the
> SqueezeNetwork vs SlimServer distinction irrelevant/invisible, so
> you'll just get whatever you want to listen to without worrying about
> where it's coming from.


Perfect. I already can't wait for this feature :)

Kyle
2006-02-08, 21:05
Will Pandora be fee-based or free? It looks like they offer both.

seanadams
2006-02-08, 21:09
Will Pandora be fee-based or free? It looks like they offer both.

90 days free for Squeezebox owners. After that, subscribe for $36/yr. Pandora's ad-supported offering is new, so we have to wait and see...

To put it in perspective, $36 is two CDs. :)

seanadams
2006-02-08, 21:15
I know SlimServer is open source, but firmware is not.
Could it be done is firmware (hypothetically)?



Hypothetically, anything is possible. :)

Realistically, it's quite impossible to fit big things into embedded systems, so being a "Slim" client helps a lot.

snarlydwarf
2006-02-08, 21:44
And you're not the one who can change their protocols, I know...

If they're streaming mp3's, then really, the only 'gotcha' is the authentication method. It would be nice (for them, though admittedly it would give less of a lead to Slimdevices) to have it something like the last.fm or xm stuff: authenticate with http somehow and that gives you a magic-tokenized url.

Though there would be a neato side benefit to Slim this way...

Listen to track by Someone Odd, think, "you know, I like this song..." and with a couple rightarrows ... hear similar stuff. No typing with the remote, just some arrowing. (Ie, over in the tags and 'add to favorites', throw in a 'find similar stuff' thing.)

(And the real killer app for something like Pandora or Last.fm... a "I like this album, remind me to buy it when I get my ass off the couch" button...)

That's something that would warm even the cold hearts at RIAA. :P

andyg
2006-02-08, 21:51
Listen to track by Someone Odd, think, "you know, I like this song..." and with a couple rightarrows ... hear similar stuff. No typing with the remote, just some arrowing. (Ie, over in the tags and 'add to favorites', throw in a 'find similar stuff' thing.)

(And the real killer app for something like Pandora or Last.fm... a "I like this album, remind me to buy it when I get my ass off the couch" button...)

This is all there, just wait. :) Try out the Pandora flash player to get some idea how it works.

EnochLight
2006-02-08, 21:57
For the time being I can't seem to log into Squeeze Network to create an account, so I tried the demo on Pandora's homepage. All I can say is - I love it! Can't wait to try this on my Squeezebox, and $36 is a steal for such power.

Rawk on Slim Devices!

snarlydwarf
2006-02-08, 22:00
This is all there, just wait. :) Try out the Pandora flash player to get some idea how it works.

I have, but it's annoying to play music at the pc. :)

There's a reason I have a nice ass-shaped dent in the couch.

seanadams
2006-02-08, 22:06
There's a reason I have a nice ass-shaped dent in the couch.

So tell her to get up and bring a beer to your listening room!

dean
2006-02-08, 22:16
On Feb 8, 2006, at 8:57 PM, EnochLight wrote:

>
> For the time being I can't seem to log into Squeeze Network to
> create an
> account,
We're in the middle of an upgrade right now. Try again in an hour or
so.


> so I tried the demo on Pandora's homepage. All I can say is -
> I love it! Can't wait to try this on my Squeezebox, and $36 is a
> steal
> for such power.
We've been using it here at home with the Squeezebox for a few days
and it's really quite incredible.

> Rawk on Slim Devices!

(...slides across room in stocking feet playing air guitar....)

-dean

Chris Kantarjiev
2006-02-08, 22:35
$36/year? Bah. I have to upgrade my Squeezebox, too! :-)

Congrats. I've wanted this since I first saw pandora (and I'm sure
I'm not the only person who wrote to both companies saying so...)

chris

Ben
2006-02-08, 23:03
Doubtless I'm being dense here, but how is Pandora different then Last.FM?

Ben

radish
2006-02-08, 23:07
Firstly, congrats on the NYT mention, and I hope you have warned UPS to send more trucks :)

The Pandora stuff is interesting. I'm listening now through the flash player and it's not bad - took almost 10 goes before I found a song or artist it had heard of but once I got suitably mainstream it was OK. The only thing that concerns me is that it needs SN, I can understand why, but although I'm an avid SD fan I don't even have an SN account - switching servers is a pain and my SBs live on a private subnet with no internet access. I'd be prepared to let them see the outside world, but the transition from my local server to SN has to be seamless.

Can't you just create a regular server plugin with a closed source component to handle the secret bits (native compiled)? Or have a plugin which talks directly to the SN server and has it do the secret stuff? Gotta be a way around this :)

seanadams
2006-02-08, 23:12
Firstly, congrats on the NYT mention, and I hope you have warned UPS to send more trucks :)

The Pandora stuff is interesting. I'm listening now through the flash player and it's not bad - took almost 10 goes before I found a song or artist it had heard of but once I got suitably mainstream it was OK. The only thing that concerns me is that it needs SN, I can understand why, but although I'm an avid SD fan I don't even have an SN account - switching servers is a pain and my SBs live on a private subnet with no internet access. I'd be prepared to let them see the outside world, but the transition from my local server to SN has to be seamless.

Can't you just create a regular server plugin with a closed source component to handle the secret bits (native compiled)? Or have a plugin which talks directly to the SN server and has it do the secret stuff? Gotta be a way around this :)

They would need internet access anyway to pull Pandora steams - can you explain in more detail?

andyg
2006-02-08, 23:15
Doubtless I'm being dense here, but how is Pandora different then Last.FM?

There was a recent article comparing the two just last week. http://www.stevekrause.org/steve_krause_blog/2006/01/pandora_and_las.html

seanadams
2006-02-08, 23:18
http://www.stevekrause.org/steve_krause_blog/2006/01/pandora_and_las.html

Yes, an excellent writeup!

Kyle
2006-02-08, 23:20
This upgrade you guys are working on tonight -- will that enable Pandora when you're through? Also, did you force a firmware change? I had to update twice tonight.

radish
2006-02-08, 23:26
They would need internet access anyway to pull Pandora steams - can you explain in more detail?

I guess it depends on the details of the Pandora protocol, and which bits are secret (and at this point I'm 100% guessing). I'm assuming it's a single, persistent stream into which the tracks are played - much like the stream.mp3 you can get from slimserver. In that case, the SB connects to the Pandora server via your slimserver just like with a normal streaming station. When you need to login, choose channels, or interact in some way (I assume this is the secret bit) the plugin sends a request to the SN server, which talks over the secure channel to the Pandora server, which changes what you're listening to.

Another option is to put the secret stuff in a binary and ship that with a regular plugin acting as a wrapper - similar to the way closed drivers are sometimes shipped for Linux.

And yet another way (which is what was mentioned earlier) is for a firmware change to allow the SB to transparently switch from local slimserver to the SN server when you select Pandora.

I'd be happy with any of those options, and in the last case would be happy to open up the SBs to the outside world (the other cases wouldn't need that as the local slimserver proxies for them) - I'm not that fussy. I guess I just see a firmware change like that being pretty big and maybe not so fast to happen...whereas plugin stuff tends to move pretty quick.

I guess my main point was that the current situation of having to log out of one server and into another would mean that practically speaking I'd probably rarely use it - which would be a shame. I know it sounds lazy but I've had enough troubles getting SBs to connect that I like to leave them alone once they're working :)

seanadams
2006-02-08, 23:32
I guess my main point was that the current situation of having to log out of one server and into another would mean that practically speaking I'd probably rarely use it - which would be a shame. I know it sounds lazy but I've had enough troubles getting SBs to connect that I like to leave them alone once they're working :)

Radish, I agree that having to switch modes to use one or the other is inelegant. However I think the architecture is sound, and we just need some higher-level polish to make it feel right...

Dan Sully
2006-02-08, 23:40
* Kyle shaped the electrons to say...

>This upgrade you guys are working on tonight -- will that enable Pandora
>when you're through? Also, did you force a firmware change? I had to
>update twice tonight.

The upgrade is our first step to rolling out Pandora on SqueezeNetwork.

The firmware update was accidental - it's fixed now.

-D
--
<dr.pox> NO, NETBSD IS NOT REALLY BUILT WITH ELITE FORTRAN77!!@$#$

andyg
2006-02-08, 23:40
This upgrade you guys are working on tonight -- will that enable Pandora when you're through? Also, did you force a firmware change? I had to update twice tonight.

This was a major code upgrade to get ready for the Pandora service, which we expect to have out by the end of the month.

The firmware upgrade on SN was a bug that we fixed.

Pale Blue Ego
2006-02-09, 00:00
Congrats on the NYT writeup! Nice article and it should drive immediate sales. If you don't watch out the Squeezebox could become the new iPod - then you'll all be billionaires, end up buying Disney and have no time to hang on the forums!

Pandora is a great feature, too. Adding thousands of SB users will help them continue to fine-tune their service. As far as a "buy this CD" feature, it'd be simple for Pandora to send a reminder to your email or squeezenetwork account. I could even see a future where you could set up your Pandora account to automatically ship the CD from Amazon.

Best of luck with sales and I can't wait to try Pandora through the SB.

stinkingpig
2006-02-09, 00:22
>
> Ben Wrote:
>> Doubtless I'm being dense here, but how is Pandora different then
>> Last.FM?
>
> There was a recent article comparing the two just last week.
> http://www.stevekrause.org/steve_krause_blog/2006/01/pandora_and_las.html
>
>

Pandora == Yahoo! or Ask Jeeves, Last.FM == Google or AltaVista.
(Technology-wise, I'm not trying to say that they're backed or owned or
anything.) Two different approaches to the same problem.

I'd like to see what Pandora's classification system thinks of what I'm
listening to right now :)
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/07/free_for_the_downloa.html

Great press coverage, though I'll personally be sticking with Last.fm as
it does a better job of matching my taste
(http://www.last.fm/user/Stinkingpig/). I also like that I pay when I use
it instead of paying for the year up front. Still, I'll keep an eye on
Pandora, as the author's thesis makes sense, and I could see their service
improving at some point.

--
Jack Coates At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin, so across the Western
ocean I must wander" - traditional

KenF
2006-02-09, 01:05
Great news on Pandora. I can't wait.


Radish, I agree that having to switch modes to use one or the other is inelegant. However I think the architecture is sound, and we just need some higher-level polish to make it feel right...
I really hope you'll work on this. The architecture is fine, but the current switching in the UI is a real kludge. It's one of the few areas left where the Squeezebox really lacks elegance / usability.

How it should work:

Integrate everything together. Selecting a service provided through Squeezenetwork would log you in, transparently. Switching to Squeezeserver sourced content would log you out of Squeezenetwork, transparently. Turning the box off, or a predefined period of inactivity, would also log you out of Squeezenetwork.

ceejay
2006-02-09, 01:57
My very limited trials with pandora haven't been very rewarding so far ... but I love last.fm, thanks to James' plugin.

Having read that excellent blog comparison, and the comments thereon, it seems that the two services are "scratching two different itches" and that support for both would be ideal.

If Slim are going to incorporate pandora into Squeezenetwork, is there any chance of maintaining a level playing field by giving a similar integration to last.fm (crudely, putting the last.fm plugin onto the Squeezenetwork servers - though I realise there's a bit more than that!)?

Ceejay.

Craig, James (IT)
2006-02-09, 04:20
I'm guessing this won't be available to non-US users beyond the free
trial?
You can lie on the registration about your location but then that won't
match up with your CC billing address.

James
--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

mherger
2006-02-09, 04:41
> I'm guessing this won't be available to non-US users beyond the free
> trial?

Oh no... I fear you're right :-(

http://blog.pandora.com/faq/index.html#59

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Help translate SlimServer by using the
SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)

Craig, James (IT)
2006-02-09, 04:45
Score one for LastFM then.

Not that I'm biased. Much.

James
--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

simonmac2
2006-02-09, 05:43
if for example...a non-geographic email address (e.g. @gmail.com) and the only zipcode I know (90125 ;-) the Pandora licensing hasn't been explicitly broken...

slim (AT) herger (DOT) net wrote:
> > I'm guessing this won't be available to non-US users beyond the free
> > trial?
>
> Oh no... I fear you're right :-(
>
> http://blog.pandora.com/faq/index.html#59
>
> --
>
> Michael
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Help translate SlimServer by using the
> SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)
>
>

Craig, James (IT)
2006-02-09, 05:49
> if for example...a non-geographic email address (e.g.
> @gmail.com) and the only zipcode I know (90125 ;-) the
> Pandora licensing hasn't been explicitly broken...

And how will you pay for the subscription required for the SlimServer
access?
--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

PAUL WILLIAMSON
2006-02-09, 06:32
>>> James.Craig (AT) morganstanley (DOT) com 02/09/06 7:49 AM >>>
>> if for example...a non-geographic email address (e.g.
>> @gmail.com) and the only zipcode I know (90125 ;-) the
>> Pandora licensing hasn't been explicitly broken...
>
>And how will you pay for the subscription required for the
>SlimServer access?

A buddy who lives in the states or paypal?

Craig, James (IT)
2006-02-09, 06:40
>
> A buddy who lives in the states or paypal?

I couldn't find any details about what methods of payment they take
without signing up.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I think this is great news for SlimDevices!
This is exactly the sort of thing they need to differentiate from the
competition.

Hopefully Rhapsody will come good on their promise to provide the
service outside of the US.
It's always frustrating to see these services (Rhapsody as well)
unavailable elsewhere...

James
--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

kweller
2006-02-09, 06:55
In article
<315FA12EBC7B1441B0AF01EBAF46B2F405725C2B (AT) LNWEXMB33 (DOT) msad.ms.com>, James
(IT) Craig wrote:
> And how will you pay for the subscription required for the SlimServer
> access?

And who would want to when we have Last.FM? :)

Kevin

tom permutt
2006-02-09, 07:21
Thanks guys! Pandora is going to be huge - no doubt the biggest thing to happen to music since Napster.

Do you really think so? I respect your opinion, but I'm not seeing it.

Pandora has a fraction of the music available on Rhapsody Radio or Launchcast. There is no way to browse it, only a clunky searcher. Notwithstanding the highfalutin language ("music genome"), it's no better at guessing what I'd like. It streams in a medium-resolution format that isn't going to sound much better on an audiophile Squeezebox than on a Ratty Old Kopykat Unit.

So why has the premium hardware maker teamed up with the Brand X service provider? Surely not because of their shared philosophy of openness:


It's not DRM in the usual sense, but yes there are reasons why we probably won't put this in SlimServer.
Indeed, Pandora seems to be paranoid not about the rights to the music itself, but about some bot deducing their suggestion algorithm.

Not, I hope, because Slim wants to join a box+service battle: Isomething+Itunes vs. Roku+Rhapsody vs. Slim+Pandora. If so, I fear Slim is on the wrong horse; but, more importantly, it's the beginning of the end of the open-source, open-format idea.

So, what's going on? Are the big players just too afraid of open source altogether to deal with Slim at all?

seanadams
2006-02-09, 07:42
If so, I fear Slim is on the wrong horse; but, more importantly, it's the beginning of the end of the open-source, open-format idea.

We expect this to be the first of many horses, and we're not interested in forcing anyone to use any particular music source. Our goal is ALL THE MUSIC and we're happy to let users decide which services they'll get it from. However, there are practical and legal limits to which non-open/non-mp3 ones we can bring online, and how quickly. Please don't assume that because our software is open source that we oppose non-free-anything - our software roadmap has always indicated plans to support more formats and more music sources including DRM ones. As much as we'd like everyone to use sensible file formats and open interfaces, we're just not big enough to drive that, so instead we'll try to just make it all available and let you decide.

rick's cafe
2006-02-09, 07:46
Great post and very pleased to hear that Pandora will be a part of SN.

my question is .. Will the free service still be offered to SN users. It is not that I am averse to paying 36 bucks a year for the facility.. but as mentioned above.. thoses who live outside of the states (like me in the UK) have issues in getting the paid service.

I have used pandora before (in the UK) but am limited to the free service.. which puts a small ad on screen.... sure it can be a bit of a pain but for free music streams I really dont mind...

sooooo... will us poor folk outside of the US be able to use pandora on our SB/SN beyond the 90 trial period... any chance of them incorporating the free (listen to an ad first) service?

el payo
2006-02-09, 08:04
Great article. And to think it seemed like only a few months ago you guys were placating our questions about Pandora with a 'Let's just say I'm a good friend of the guys over there.'

tom permutt
2006-02-09, 08:11
We expect this to be the first of many horses, and we're not interested in forcing anyone to use any particular music source. Our goal is ALL THE MUSIC and we're happy to let users decide which services they'll get it from. However, there are practical and legal limits to which non-open/non-mp3 ones we can bring online, and how quickly. Please don't assume that because our software is open source that we oppose non-free-anything - our software roadmap has always indicated plans to support more formats and more music sources including DRM ones. As much as we'd like everyone to use sensible file formats and open interfaces, we're just not big enough to drive that, so instead we'll try to just make it all available and let you decide.
Thanks, Sean: that is what I hoped to hear. Your well-known discretion about ongoing negotiations may lead to unrealistic speculation that things like Rhapsody are coming Real Soon Now. Then something like this may seem more a disappointing substitute than a parallel option.

I do hope some of the important "practical and legal limits" can be overcome in time. We like it to sound good and look good, but, as you suggest, we all really want choices in music.

pfarrell
2006-02-09, 08:29
tom permutt wrote:
> I do hope some of the important "practical and legal limits" can be
> overcome in time. We like it to sound good and look good, but, as you
> suggest, we all really want choices in music.

Back when my company was trying to stream our 40,000 CDs (which had
every pop/country/r-b/hiphop/house/.... cd that anyone would want)
the RIAA ran us out of business over their legal limits.

They may have changed a little over the years, but the rules are
convoluted and written for one and only one reason: to maintain
the major label/RIAA business model that they have used for
50+ years. The RIAA wrote the DMCA, the US Congress just
rubber stamped it. The law is clear that radio stations
are legal as long as the proper fees are paid. The key
about radio stations is that the station operator, not
the listener, controls the music selection.

Even if they have learned a little over the years, the
field is a minefield. The RIAA reflects its owners, which
are the four (or it is five this month) major record labels.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

andyg
2006-02-09, 08:45
I have used pandora before (in the UK) but am limited to the free service.. which puts a small ad on screen.... sure it can be a bit of a pain but for free music streams I really dont mind...

sooooo... will us poor folk outside of the US be able to use pandora on our SB/SN beyond the 90 trial period... any chance of them incorporating the free (listen to an ad first) service?

I don't know if there are plans to offer audio ads, but for now the only ads are web-based, so there is no way to have an ad-supported account.

rick's cafe
2006-02-09, 09:09
soooo.. the answer is no then.... for the moment at least?

andyg
2006-02-09, 09:17
Correct, after the 90 day trial you'd need to subscribe.

Kevin O. Lepard
2006-02-09, 12:53
> > A SqueezeNetwork feature? Interesting.....
>> Can you give us more details?
>
>It's really simple. You'll add your pandora account in Squeezenetwork
>settings, and then from the Squeezebox UI you'll see "Pandora Radio" at
>the top level. Press right and choose to either view your stations or
>create a new one by searching for artists or songs.

I'm probably being dense here, but the web page at Slim Devices seems
to suggest that this is ready now, and I can't get it running.

I can't find anywhere in the Squeezenetwork pages where I add my
Pandora information, and I can't seem to find to where to browse
anywhere with my SB2 to find it. Nor can I find a place to enter it
in Slimserver.

Is it not running yet, or alternately, can you explain it to me like
I'm 3? I've been waiting for this and paid my $36 today to Pandora
today. :-)

Thanks.

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

Dan Sully
2006-02-09, 12:55
* Kevin O. Lepard shaped the electrons to say...

>I'm probably being dense here, but the web page at Slim Devices seems
>to suggest that this is ready now, and I can't get it running.

The front page says 'March 1st' - the Pandora detail page doesn't.

I'll get that updated.

-D
--
<nil> It sucks to discover that you are the foremost authority on some set of things when you've got a problem.

shvejk
2006-02-09, 13:03
Congratulations to SlimDevices!

The latest upgrade to SqueezeNetwork better be strong... :)

shvejk
2006-02-09, 13:13
This was regarding amazon.com Movers & Shakers #1 rank...



On 2/9/06, Josef Shvejk <shvejk (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> Congratulations to SlimDevices!
>
> The latest upgrade to SqueezeNetwork better be strong... :)
>

Philip Meyer
2006-02-09, 14:00
>90 days free for Squeezebox owners. After that, subscribe for $36/yr.
>Pandora's ad-supported offering is new, so we have to wait and see...
>
Is it America only, or would there be a pricing structure (albeit rip-off) for the UK, hopefully with a UK server?

Phil

kdf
2006-02-09, 14:06
Quoting Philip Meyer <phil (AT) hergest (DOT) demon.co.uk>:

>> 90 days free for Squeezebox owners. After that, subscribe for $36/yr.
>> Pandora's ad-supported offering is new, so we have to wait and see...
>>
> Is it America only, or would there be a pricing structure (albeit
> rip-off) for the UK, hopefully with a UK server?
>
Pandora is licensed to stream music to US customers only. (they have a
faq on that)
-k

ezkcdude
2006-02-09, 14:40
Nice! Pogue's a big name in the Mac world, so maybe this will get Apple's attention.

fairyliquidizer
2006-02-09, 14:44
Hmmm well I'm a UK user so nothing here for me yet. However I am interested in this. I just entered my first two artists (Beulah and Yo La Tengo) both of whom were recognised. So far so good then :)

Keep adding to the service guys!

Fairy

Philip Meyer
2006-02-09, 15:08
>Pandora is licensed to stream music to US customers only. (they have a
>faq on that)
Oh well, I'll stick with LastFM then. And it's free(ish).

Phil

Philip Meyer
2006-02-09, 15:12
>Pandora is licensed to stream music to US customers only. (they have a
>faq on that)
Thinking about it, the Flash demo streams to me in the UK. I assume they would tell through IP address. Maybe they will provide a UK service.

If SqueezeNetwork is hosting Pandora for streaming to SqueezeBox, would the SqeezeNetwork need to perform some test to check the destination?

Phil

Kevin O. Lepard
2006-02-09, 15:37
>* Kevin O. Lepard shaped the electrons to say...
>
>>I'm probably being dense here, but the web page at Slim Devices
>>seems to suggest that this is ready now, and I can't get it running.
>
>The front page says 'March 1st' - the Pandora detail page doesn't.

Ah. That'd be it then. I didn't read the font page carefully; just
clicked through to the detail page. My mistake.

Well, here's looking forward to March 1st.

:-)

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

Christian Pernegger
2006-02-09, 16:55
> Please don't assume that because our software is open source
> that we oppose non-free-anything - our software roadmap has always
> indicated plans to support more formats and more music sources
> including DRM ones.

Let's just say that a big part of my decision to buy a sb1 and then a
sb2 was that I, personally, oppose non-free-anything. Well, maybe
oppose is to strong a word ... dislike, maybe.

That squeezenetwork would be used for content tie-ins was clear from
the beginning, and I was very much looking forward to that. Only now I
must admit I'm a little bit disappointed as I was hoping for something
more

- global.
At the moment this seems to be US only.

- open
Why use a binary / DRM component at all? An username + password
combination should be enough to make sure everyone has paid up. Yes,
people could share passwords but only on a very small scale before it
raises alarms. Works well enough for: MMORPGs and adult sites. And
yes, people might download some content and save it, but after all
this is like a radio and that I can legally tape all I want. Nobody is
gonna "pirate" content at playback speed.

- high quality
128kbit/s mp3 is just not the state of the art

- less mainstream
People keep saying that you can't dictate the interface protocols to
music services. True, for existing ones. I was still kind of hoping
that you would string together a much more open delivery platform for
indie labels and artists.

Someone else said :

> it's the beginning of the end of the open-source, open-format idea.

It doesn't have to be, let's hope it is not. I'd like openness at a
grander scale that between living room and slimserver.


C.

pfarrell
2006-02-09, 17:09
Christian Pernegger wrote:
> - global.
> At the moment this seems to be US only.

I can understand wny Pandora is US only, the 'legal issues"
are bad enough in the US. Trying to roll it out in many countries
with their many legal approaches to licensing is not
likely to be any fun. We can hope that they get
more countries on line as they mature.


> - open
> Why use a binary / DRM component at all? An username + password
> combination should be enough to make sure everyone has paid up. Yes,
> people could share passwords but only on a very small scale before it
> raises alarms. Works well enough for: MMORPGs and adult sites.

username passwords are not strong enough if you care about
what you are doing, and the RIAA cares tons.
Adult sites are a totally different business model.

More importantly, the DRMs make getting licenses to stream the
music a lot easier to get from the Record Labels.

> - high quality
> 128kbit/s mp3 is just not the state of the art

Agreed, but again, it depends on the business model.
For a streaming site, bandwidth is the most expensive
part of the business. Consumers never see it, it tends
to be burried in their broadband ISP's SLA. But
commercial co-lo contracts are priced by bandwidth
in both peak and monthy numbers.

If people demand better quality, it will show up. But
lots of people are happy with 128kb/mp3, warts and all.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

jmpage2
2006-02-09, 17:24
I've been trying out Pandora for the last several hours.

Wow.

It's very, veryimpressive.

About my only beef is that the bitrate is not as good as I would like (192kbps+ would really help the audio quality).

I hope that the Slim Devices implementation for Squeezebox is as smooth as the web interface for Pandora (easily add songs to a channel, thumbs up, thumbs down, etc).

I agree with Sean Adams, this is going to be huge, it's like XM on steroids.

EnochLight
2006-02-09, 17:28
...this is going to be huge, it's like XM on steroids.

You know, after playing with it for a bit I've come to the conclusion that Pandora is a great idea, but... half the artists I type in - it has never heard of. So, for the most part Pandora works well with pop and more better known artists but the indie artists, abstract, experimental, and a plethora of genres not heard of get left out of the mix.

I can't parse too much blame, however; it's not like they can tap into *EVERY* kind of music out there...

Or then again...

*shrugs*

...so much for the "Music Genome Project".. ;-)

Kevin O. Lepard
2006-02-09, 18:05
>Pandora works well with pop and more better known artists but the
>indie artists, abstract, experimental, and a plethora of genres not
>heard of get left out

I imagine it's like any business. You have to pick the low-hanging
fruit first if you don't want to starve. I'd be surprised if they
don't want and plan to expand with time.

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

jmpage2
2006-02-09, 18:18
You know, after playing with it for a bit I've come to the conclusion that Pandora is a great idea, but... half the artists I type in - it has never heard of. So, for the most part Pandora works well with pop and more better known artists but the indie artists, abstract, experimental, and a plethora of genres not heard of get left out of the mix.

I can't parse too much blame, however; it's not like they can tap into *EVERY* kind of music out there...

Or then again...

*shrugs*

...so much for the "Music Genome Project".. ;-)


Keep in mind that to build the Pandora Database they had to build up lots of information about what people have been listening to over the past 6 years.

Certainly private label or indie records are going to have a much harder time being represented when much of the music isn't even available via normal distribution channels.

The good news is that if the project picks up more steam I could really see it branching out into more genres of music.

As it is I've had it selecting all sorts of things for me that I've never even heard of, and most of it wouldn't be classified as "pop".

Christian Pernegger
2006-02-09, 18:28
> I can understand wny Pandora is US only, [...]

So can I but I don't have to like it, do I? :)

> username passwords are not strong enough

This auth method isn't very strong, but why shouldn't it be strong
enough? It makes sure everone who seriously uses the service pays for
it while not being overly intrusive. It's good enough for eBay and
Paypal after all.

> More importantly, the DRMs make getting licenses to stream the
> music a lot easier to get from the Record Labels.

I'd bet they're just using a blanket license like radio stations have
them, which would explain that you can't chose specific songs and skip
backwards. OTOH they explain that, if you add a certain artist and
song title to one of their "stations", the song will "play eventually"
*winkwink*. Smells a bit like exploiting a loophole to me ... :)

> Consumers never see it, it tends
> to be burried in their broadband ISP's SLA. But
> commercial co-lo contracts are priced by bandwidth
> in both peak and monthy numbers.

In a lot of European countries consumers are billed a flat fee per
month which may or may not include a few GB and a fee per GB after
that. 1GB is ~1EUR for me.

C.

pfarrell
2006-02-09, 18:55
Christian Pernegger wrote:
>>I can understand wny Pandora is US only, [...]
> So can I but I don't have to like it, do I? :)

Not at all. The SlimServer running on Linux and being
Open Source was one of the major attractions for me
to buy the first of what has so far been three SBoxen


>>username passwords are not strong enough
>
> This auth method isn't very strong, but why shouldn't it be strong
> enough? It makes sure everone who seriously uses the service pays for
> it while not being overly intrusive. It's good enough for eBay and
> Paypal after all.

But they use it under SSL. I think a better comparision is
the DRM in iTunes or coming in Vista.

> I'd bet they're just using a blanket license like radio stations have
> them, which would explain that you can't chose specific songs and skip
> backwards. OTOH they explain that, if you add a certain artist and
> song title to one of their "stations", the song will "play eventually"
> *winkwink*. Smells a bit like exploiting a loophole to me ... :)

Yes, the DMCA has explicit allowances for radio stations,
which can take requests, but they are restricted in what you
can do.


> In a lot of European countries consumers are billed a flat fee per
> month which may or may not include a few GB and a fee per GB after
> that. 1GB is ~1EUR for me.

I bet that is coming in the US as well, especially with
TV shows being downloaded legally. The telcos (PT&T) are
having a cow over this now. It is one thing to flat rate
email and text based HTML. Downloading TV and movies is
altogether different. Music hardly counts on the client
side.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

Michaelwagner
2006-02-09, 19:32
[QUOTE=stinkingpig]
Hey Jack!
http://www.last.fm/user/Stinkingpig/.

You like leadbelly?

Christian Pernegger
2006-02-09, 19:54
> But they use it under SSL. I think a better comparision is the DRM in iTunes or coming
> in Vista.

SSL just protects traffic between endpoints from random listeners in
between. There are excellent FOSS implementations. The kind of
encryption I don't like is the kind that tries to protect data
processed by one of my devices from me.
I wasn't trying to compare, I was trying to make the point that
SSL-style encryption to protect the payload / auth info would be
sufficient for streaming low quality audio no faster than real time.

> > I'd bet they're just using a blanket license like radio stations have them,

> Yes, the DMCA has explicit allowances for radio stations,
> which can take requests, but they are restricted in what you
> can do.

If they use such a license, they likely don't have contracts with
individual labels, nor must-DRM clauses on them. OTA radio isn't
encrypted either.

C.

Jude
2006-02-09, 19:59
Nice! Pogue's a big name in the Mac world, so maybe this will get Apple's attention.

That's how I found out about it! But (see beginner post) I don't have enough hardware....

stinkingpig
2006-02-09, 23:06
>
> stinkingpig Wrote:
>>
>> Hey Jack!
>> http://www.last.fm/user/Stinkingpig/.
>>
>> You like leadbelly?
>

yup. So do the kids. I take no responsibility for any Coldplay in there
though, that's the wife.

--
Jack Coates At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin, so across the Western
ocean I must wander" - traditional

mherger
2006-02-10, 00:59
> Thinking about it, the Flash demo streams to me in the UK. I assume they
> would tell through IP address. Maybe they will provide a UK service.

This is the ad sponsored version - which isn't possible with the SB as it
does not display graphical adds :-)

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Help translate SlimServer by using the
SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)

Bennett, Gavin (LDN Int)
2006-02-10, 01:21
Dear SlimDevices,

I love your products (plug for referral scheme!) and have 3 of them around my house. The old Slimp3s still impress many visitors and just keep on running.

But Pandora is useless for me - it looks great.

All I see now is that for the next 6 months your time and resources will be directed at a USA only product that does nothing to improve or help the platform for non-Americans. The forum is going to be swamped with newbies asking the same old questions and existing users loving Pandora whilst I'm left out in the cold (currently -3 Centigrade).

Pandora and Slim should get a lot more customers from this tie-up, but Pandora are losing out due to USA only licensing. Even if they do license for UK I bet it will be 36 ($62) pa instead of $36 - ripped off again.

Please kick Pandora until the wake up to global markets and not continue with the typical Amercian company attitude that ignores other countries.

Um......if I change my server to use an IP hide program will it let me subscribe?

Gavin










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mattybain
2006-02-10, 01:39
> Thinking about it, the Flash demo streams to me in the UK. I assume they
> would tell through IP address. Maybe they will provide a UK service.

This is the ad sponsored version - which isn't possible with the SB as it
does not display graphical adds :-)
[/url])

Am I being a bit thick here as I fail to see from a RIAA perspective what difference it makes whether people from the UK are allowed access to the visual ad version (which I understand they are allowed) or the paid for non ad version (which they are not and which will be supported by SlimNetwork)

I also find it disappointing that a free global service (LastFM) that everyone can use has been ignored by SlimDevices and the SlimNetwork in favour of what appears to be a US only subscription service.

Are Slimdevices getting a cut from Pandora for supplying this service? if not then what it is stopping SlimNetwork support for LastFM?

Also whilst I am on my rant why does the homepage link to Pandora http://www.slimdevices.com/dev_pandora.html not mention this is a US only service? this given the statement "This great service is FREE starting March first for all Squeezebox 2 and v3 owners for 90 days after Pandora account creation" is simply not true.

mherger
2006-02-10, 02:17
> Um......if I change my server to use an IP hide program will it let me
> subscribe?

I'm sitting in the same boat (living in Switzerland). But I don't fear IP
blocking. I think it's a purely legal issue with no technical limitations.
You can't pay as you don't live in the US. No need to check for IP
addresses. I'm sure if I could get a friend overseas to pay for me, it
would work. I'll have to give this a try (I actually do have a friend
living in Fremont :-)).

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Help translate SlimServer by using the
SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)

Robin Bowes
2006-02-10, 02:28
Michael Herger said the following on 02/10/2006 09:17 AM:
>> Um......if I change my server to use an IP hide program will it let
>> me subscribe?
>
>
> I'm sitting in the same boat (living in Switzerland). But I don't fear
> IP blocking. I think it's a purely legal issue with no technical
> limitations. You can't pay as you don't live in the US. No need to
> check for IP addresses. I'm sure if I could get a friend overseas to
> pay for me, it would work. I'll have to give this a try (I actually do
> have a friend living in Fremont :-)).

It does work, but the audio is streamed from the US rather than local
POPs here in the UK so it's not the most reliable of streams.

R.

Craig, James (IT)
2006-02-10, 02:55
> Nice! Pogue's a big name in the Mac world,

Really? I thought it was a pretty poor article technically.
Was anyone else amused by this line?

"Four kinds of audio-output connectors are provided, including RCA (red
and white) and digital outputs (optical and coax)."

James
--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

rick's cafe
2006-02-10, 06:51
none of this explains why the free (listen to an ad) service cannot be applied to the SN model.

It works on the Net. You can get the webbased stream outside the US for free. sure you have to deal with the pop up but if you dont mind that then its all good. The same principle could easily be applied to the new SN service.

I am not averse to paying for tunes, and whilst I appreciate that the current US legistlation requires that any fee based service will have teritorial limitations.. I do not see why the same principles cannot be applied, particulary when the net is streaming to those outside the US.

mattybain
2006-02-10, 07:06
none of this explains why the free (listen to an ad) service cannot be applied to the SN model.

It works on the Net. You can get the webbased stream outside the US for free. sure you have to deal with the pop up but if you dont mind that then its all good. The same principle could easily be applied to the new SN service.

I am not averse to paying for tunes, and whilst I appreciate that the current US legistlation requires that any fee based service will have teritorial limitations.. I do not see why the same principles cannot be applied, particulary when the net is streaming to those outside the US.

From a cost perspective I think it is obvious why the ad based model can't be applied to SN as how are you going to get the pop up adverts? it simply wouldn't work.

What I don't understand is given that the ad based system is available outside the US why then is the subscription based system is not. Surely it makes no difference to the RIAA who Pandora is funded just that the appropriate fees are paid.

I know that strictly speaking that you have to be a US citizen to listen to Pandora in any mode but who is the postcode field really trying to fool Do you not think when the RIAA realise that the majority of the users are from 90210 that they will become suspicious.

Michaelwagner
2006-02-10, 07:24
the majority of the users are from 90210.

lol.

You could also use the zip codes from Manhattan. There are plenty of them and they're mostly easy to remember. I remember 10001, but there's a few more here:
http://manhattanny.areaconnect.com/zip2.htm?city=Manhattan&qs=NY&searchtype=bycity

gvh
2006-02-10, 08:25
or http://maps.google.com/maps?q=12345

after giving it Radiohead, Kaiser Chiefs and the Eels I'm getting US bands. Its not so hot on UK pop. Clever idea and great tie up but not my cup of tea. But none of the streaming radio systems are.
I still choose from New Music and pick an album
Great publicity though and that's always welcome.

stinkingpig
2006-02-10, 08:36
....> Am I being a bit thick here as I fail to see from a RIAA perspective
> what difference it makes whether people from the UK are allowed access
> to the visual ad version (which I understand they are allowed) or the
> paid for non ad version (which they are not and which will be supported
> by SlimNetwork)
>

No idea.

> I also find it disappointing that a free global service (LastFM) that
> everyone can use has been ignored by SlimDevices and the SlimNetwork in
> favour of what appears to be a US only subscription service.
>

It's not ignored, there's an excellent pair of plugins. Slimscrobbler
submits the songs you play to Last.fm, then the Last.fm plugin lets
Squeezebox play your stations. It would be nice if that same capability
was there on SqueezeNetwork, though it gets more complex to do the
Slimscrobbler submissions that way.

....
> Also whilst I am on my rant why does the homepage link to Pandora
> http://www.slimdevices.com/dev_pandora.html not mention this is a US
> only service? this given the statement "This great service is FREE
> starting March first for all Squeezebox 2 and v3 owners for 90 days
> after Pandora account creation" is simply not true.
....

Oh get real, we all know there's no electricity outside of the U.S. How
could people have Squeezeboxes without electricity? :)

--
Jack Coates At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin, so across the Western
ocean I must wander" - traditional

Christian Pernegger
2006-02-10, 08:50
> sure you have to deal with the pop up

I tried the flash based player yesterday ... what pop-up? Is that coming soon?

What would be the point of visual ads accompanying a music stream?
People listen to music, not look at it. I had assumed they'd be
playing radio-style ads every few songs.

C.

mattybain
2006-02-10, 10:45
[QUOTE=stinkingpig]....>

It's not ignored, there's an excellent pair of plugins. Slimscrobbler
submits the songs you play to Last.fm, then the Last.fm plugin lets
Squeezebox play your stations. It would be nice if that same capability
was there on SqueezeNetwork, though it gets more complex to do the
Slimscrobbler submissions that way.

../QUOTE]

Yes very true there are two excellent plugins for LastFM but these have nothing to do with SlimDevices.

On retrospect I was in a very bad mood this morning and my rant was a little bit harsh. I think it is great that SD are supporting things like Pandora I just wish it was available outside the US and that LastFM was available on SN.

kdf
2006-02-10, 11:16
Quoting "Bennett, Gavin (LDN Int)" <GBENNETT (AT) manfinancial (DOT) com>:

> All I see now is that for the next 6 months your time and resources
> will be directed at a USA only product that does nothing to improve
> or help the platform for non-Americans. The forum is going to be
> swamped with newbies asking the same old questions and existing
> users loving Pandora whilst I'm left out in the cold (currently -3
> Centigrade).

big conclusion, for a sample size of one. and newbies asking the same
old questions, is nothing new. As for resources, never forget that
slimserver is open source and there are a number of volunteer
developers spending valuable time and energy on slimserver.
Squeezenetwork is closed, and allows no extra help from volunteers
devs aside from porting what goes into SlimServer.

"whatever it takes" covers a lot.
-k

Mark Lanctot
2006-02-10, 11:44
lol.

You could also use the zip codes from Manhattan. There are plenty of them and they're mostly easy to remember. I remember 10001, but there's a few more here:
http://manhattanny.areaconnect.com/zip2.htm?city=Manhattan&qs=NY&searchtype=bycity

But that wouldn't work though, as it wouldn't match the billing address of your credit card.

ezkcdude
2006-02-10, 11:46
> Nice! Pogue's a big name in the Mac world,

Really? I thought it was a pretty poor article technically.


He's the author of those Mac "Missing" manuals, so he must be doing something right. Maybe audio is not his forte.

shvejk
2006-02-10, 12:41
>Please kick Pandora until the wake up to global markets

I am no expert, but I have a feeling that it has more to do with music
labels policies than Pandora and SlimDevices.
And you have to Steve Jobs to argue with them....

jmpage2
2006-02-10, 12:51
Dear SlimDevices,

I love your products (plug for referral scheme!) and have 3 of them around my house. The old Slimp3s still impress many visitors and just keep on running.

But Pandora is useless for me - it looks great.

All I see now is that for the next 6 months your time and resources will be directed at a USA only product that does nothing to improve or help the platform for non-Americans. The forum is going to be swamped with newbies asking the same old questions and existing users loving Pandora whilst I'm left out in the cold (currently -3 Centigrade).

Pandora and Slim should get a lot more customers from this tie-up, but Pandora are losing out due to USA only licensing. Even if they do license for UK I bet it will be 36 ($62) pa instead of $36 - ripped off again.

Please kick Pandora until the wake up to global markets and not continue with the typical Amercian company attitude that ignores other countries.

Um......if I change my server to use an IP hide program will it let me subscribe?

Gavin



Yes, it's from the U.S. so it must be evil.

Maybe it never occurred to you that the bulk of Slim's customers are in the U.S. and that native Pandora support gives Slim a leg up on the competition rather than being another "me too" who adds a plugin for something like last.FM?

Slim is getting a lot of competition from Roku in the retail channel and this is really an excellent way to have something out there that differentiates them from the competition.

And I hardly see where you get the DATA that indicates that this is going to consume all Slim Devices efforts over a 6 month period of time.

Newbie questions? If you want to sell more players to more people than there are going to be more newbies, in the business world that's referred to as having a "successful product".

Personally I'm rather puzzled with why (for some people) Slim needs to remain this niche player that only the cool kids know about.

snarlydwarf
2006-02-10, 13:49
Slim is getting a lot of competition from Roku in the retail channel and this is really an excellent way to have something out there that differentiates them from the competition.


Other than not sucking? :)

(Geesh, I just wandered around their forums again... now I remember why I chose slimdevices.. not just the 802.11b/WEP that Roku still ships, but the 'community' here is like a million times better...)

ModelCitizen
2006-02-10, 13:58
As always, if you want it enough you can find out how to hack it. Subscribing to Pandora cannot be that difficult.

However,
After recently trying both services It seems to me that Last.fm is infinitely superior if you have anything but very obvious taste (I think non-obvious taste may be called catholic). I have no idea why I like the music I like, which spreads between Arvo Part, Slade, Deep Purple, Maitreya, Mozart, Biosphere, Japanese Kyoto music, Big Bill Broonzy, Jan Garbarek, Pere Ubu, Fall, etc (try and work the etc out), but Last.fm is much better at finding me interesting music in similar veins than Pandora. I imagine this is because Last.fm uses real (complex) human taste for it's relationships rather than the very blunt tool of human controlled categorisation.

It's a pain that you have to pay to stream your own radio station though.... :-(

MC

Ben Sandee
2006-02-10, 14:11
On 2/10/06, ModelCitizen <ModelCitizen.2317mc (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> It's a pain that you have to pay to stream your own radio station
> though.... :-(


Nobody wants to pay for anything any more, do they?

Ben

Michaelwagner
2006-02-10, 19:15
Oh get real, we all know there's no electricity outside of the U.S.

You laugh, but most americans think an american invented the telephone ....

Kevin O. Lepard
2006-02-10, 21:00
>stinkingpig Wrote:
>> Oh get real, we all know there's no electricity outside of the U.S.
>
>You laugh, but most americans think an american invented the telephone

No, he was born in Scotland, but he was in America when he invented
it. (Unless of course you're referring to Reis, Bourseul, and Gray).

And of course, we were the first ones to surgically graft telephones
to every teenage girl in our country. ;-)

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

Victor Brilon
2006-02-10, 21:05
>
> And of course, we were the first ones to surgically graft
> telephones to every teenage girl in our country. ;-)
>

Nope that would be the Japanese. Or maybe the Finns :)

Victor

Kevin O. Lepard
2006-02-10, 21:09
>>And of course, we were the first ones to surgically graft
>>telephones to every teenage girl in our country. ;-)
>>
>
>Nope that would be the Japanese. Or maybe the Finns :)

*laugh* Well, maybe so. :-)

What's more amazing is that virtually no one knows who invented the
television. (And now we're _way_ off topic.)

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

pfarrell
2006-02-10, 21:14
Kevin O. Lepard wrote:
> What's more amazing is that virtually no one knows who invented the
> television. (And now we're _way_ off topic.)

Philo T Farnsworth
At least that is what they taught me ages ago in EE class.


--
-- toc
toc (AT) curmudgeon4 (DOT) us
http://www.curmudgeon4.us/

Mark Lanctot
2006-02-10, 21:53
--- Pat Farrell <pfarrell (AT) pfarrell (DOT) com> wrote:

> Kevin O. Lepard wrote:
> > What's more amazing is that virtually no one knows
> who invented the
> > television. (And now we're _way_ off topic.)
>
> Philo T Farnsworth
> At least that is what they taught me ages ago in EE
> class.
>

Isn't that the professor on Futurama?

stinkingpig
2006-02-10, 22:13
>>>And of course, we were the first ones to surgically graft
>>>telephones to every teenage girl in our country. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>Nope that would be the Japanese. Or maybe the Finns :)
>
> *laugh* Well, maybe so. :-)
>
> What's more amazing is that virtually no one knows who invented the
> television. (And now we're _way_ off topic.)
>

Yeah, TVs have terrible audio properties, and there's not even any
Slimserver support? Lame. Besides, "if it's not Scottish, it's c*ap!"

*l

--
Jack Coates At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin, so across the Western
ocean I must wander" - traditional

Christopher A. Kantarjiev
2006-02-10, 22:19
I'd really really like it if this could be done in firmware. Distributing
binaries seems like a pain - and please remember that some of us don't run
Lintel (I run SlimServer on OpenBSD and on an Unslung NSLU2)...

Michaelwagner
2006-02-11, 07:29
he was born in Scotland, but he was in America when he invented it.
He was born in Scotland, but he moved to Canada and became a Canadian citizen. He was in the US when he did the experiments that led to the telephone, but his citizenship at the time was Canadian. I read in one place that he later acquired American citizenship. He was buried in Canada when he died.

Most people think that the telephone was invented by an American. The final steps that led up to the telephone (the "Mr. Watson, come here" first message) were done in the US, but much of his earlier research was done in Canada.

Interestingly enough, he was really looking for something to help the deaf when he invented the telephone instead. Someone in his family (his parents?) was deaf. He later married someone who was deaf. The foundation he started still exists:
http://www.agbell.org/DesktopDefault.aspx

Kevin O. Lepard
2006-02-11, 07:39
> >>>And of course, we were the first ones to surgically graft
>>>>telephones to every teenage girl in our country. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope that would be the Japanese. Or maybe the Finns :)
>>
>> *laugh* Well, maybe so. :-)
>>
>> What's more amazing is that virtually no one knows who invented the
>> television. (And now we're _way_ off topic.)
>>
>
>Yeah, TVs have terrible audio properties, and there's not even any
>Slimserver support? Lame. Besides, "if it's not Scottish, it's c*ap!"

And I think it's a good policy to never argue with someone man enough
to wear a skirt, er, kilt.

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

jmpage2
2006-02-11, 09:07
He was born in Scotland, but he moved to Canada and became a Canadian citizen. He was in the US when he did the experiments that led to the telephone, but his citizenship at the time was Canadian. I read in one place that he later acquired American citizenship. He was buried in Canada when he died.

Most people think that the telephone was invented by an American. The final steps that led up to the telephone (the "Mr. Watson, come here" first message) were done in the US, but much of his earlier research was done in Canada.

Interestingly enough, he was really looking for something to help the deaf when he invented the telephone instead. Someone in his family (his parents?) was deaf. He later married someone who was deaf. The foundation he started still exists:
http://www.agbell.org/DesktopDefault.aspx

Yes, yes, Americans are self-absorbed, obnoxious and think that their culture is the center of the universe.

Now can we get back to the actual thread topic and cease with the vulgar hijacking and whining about how this is only going to initially be available in the US?

EnochLight
2006-02-11, 09:16
Yes, yes, Americans are self-absorbed, obnoxious and think that their culture is the center of the universe.

Now can we get back to the actual thread topic and cease with the vulgar hijacking and whining about how this is only going to initially be available in the US?

Yeah but, if you are Canadian technically you *are* American. Canadians just tend to forget what continent they live on. Conveniently. ;-)

I kid! I kid!

Anyway yes Pandora rocks; I can't wait to try it out on my SB3. That said, I'm sure a solution will appear worldwide in time.

Michaelwagner
2006-02-11, 09:33
if you are Canadian technically you *are* American. Canadians just tend to forget what continent they live on. Conveniently. ;-)
Surely you jest. You have it backwards.

The continent is called America. It's the citizens of the United States of America, who forget there are other countries on the continent, and another entire continent also called (south) America, and rudely call themselves Americans like they're the only ones on this land mass.

But if you want "real" proof of how this all plays out in the rest of the world, go to Europe. I travelled through Europe by train when I lived there, and I always wore a Canadian flag on my backpack (this is pretty common for Canadians). On the train one time, I met some guys from (Boston, I think, but I could be mis-remembering) with Canadian flags on their backpack.

...

I asked them about it. They didn't want to be known as US citizens.

...

As stated previously, this is somewhat off-topic, although it's hard to spend much time talking about neat products and services only offered in the US without talking about US-centricity issues .... like the original topic ...


Anyway yes Pandora rocks; I can't wait to try it out on my SB3. That said, I'm sure a solution will appear worldwide in time.
That's not so clear to me.
In particular, most US offerings don't even work in Canada, the US' nearest and dearest neighbour, even telephone offers.

For one trivial example, we share one unified phone number system, but extra code in many phone switches actually enforce (billing, etc) border rules. So much for a unified phone system.

Google knows I'm in Canada. If I go to google.ca, I get shown canadian results (makes sense). But when I go to google.com, the US server, it shows me Canadian results and in particular I don't see what a US-based person would see. I know you can get around this, but the average person doesn't know how.

So I'm sure Pandora could do the same thing and effectively lock people out. In the case of copyright issues, I'm not sure they want to allow the rest of the world in.

One of the original points in this thread was, Slim advertised it as being available to all SB owners, and it isn't.

Christian Pernegger
2006-02-11, 10:01
> Yes, yes, Americans are self-absorbed, obnoxious and think that their
> culture is the center of the universe.

That's a pretty neat summary how most people in Western / Central
Europe think of the US and who's to blame them ...

C.

EnochLight
2006-02-11, 10:12
Surely you jest. You have it backwards..

Oivay... yes I jest - hence the "I kid!" after the tongue and cheek remark. ;-) In all honesty, I'm actually Canadian myself. Moved to the States several years ago. So for me: North America, Central, South - we're all Americans. No biggie.

When I stated that a solution would appear worldwide in time, I should have been more clear. I think that in time a solution that may or may not be Pandora could appear for other world markets, that's all. But..Slim are a very small outfit; these things will take time.

All this said, I agree Slim should have dropped the "all" from their product pages regarding the Pandora announcement and clearly stated that at this time it only applies to select markets.

cvj
2006-02-11, 10:45
It's really simple. You'll add your pandora account in Squeezenetwork settings, and then from the Squeezebox UI you'll see "Pandora Radio" at the top level.


Sorry, I must be slow this AM... exactly HOW do I do this? (step by step, please) ( I don't see any place on my Squeezenetwork page where I can add this info)...

Mark Lanctot
2006-02-11, 10:59
It's coming March 1st.

cvj wrote:
> seanadams Wrote:
>> It's really simple. You'll add your pandora account
in Squeezenetwork
>> settings, and then from the Squeezebox UI you'll
see "Pandora Radio" at
>> the top level.
>
>
> Sorry, I must be slow this AM... exactly HOW do I do
this? (step by
> step, please) ( I don't see any place on my
Squeezenetwork page where I
> can add this info)...
>
>

--
___________________________________


Mark Lanctot
___________________________________

Dan Sully
2006-02-11, 12:43
* cvj shaped the electrons to say...

>> It's really simple. You'll add your pandora account in Squeezenetwork
>> settings, and then from the Squeezebox UI you'll see "Pandora Radio" at
>> the top level.
>
>Sorry, I must be slow this AM... exactly HOW do I do this? (step by
>step, please) ( I don't see any place on my Squeezenetwork page where I
>can add this info)...

We'll be rolling out the feature on March 1st.

-D
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

cvj
2006-02-12, 11:29
Perhaps a name change is in order on March 1, when the combined Squeezebox/Pandora product is unveiled?

"Pandora's Box" would be a memorable product name - in which case, however, some serious marital discord might ensue, viz.

"Left alone with the mysterious casket, Pandora became more and more inquisitive. Stealthily she drew near and examined it with great interest, for it was curiously wrought of dark wood, and surmounted by a delicately carved head, of such fine workmanship that it seemed to smile and encourage her. Around the box a glittering golden cord was wound, and fastened on top in an intricate knot. Pandora, who prided herself specially on her deft fingers, felt sure she could unfasten it, and reasoning that it would not be indiscreet to untie it if she did not raise the lid, she set to work. Long she strove, but all in vain. Ever and anon the laughing voices of Epimetheus and his companions, playing in the luxuriant shade, were wafted in on the summer breeze. Repeatedly she heard them call and beseech her to join them; yet she persisted in her attempt. She was just on the point of giving up in despair, when suddenly the refractory knot yielded to her fumbling fingers, and the cord, unrolling, dropped on the floor.

Pandora had repeatedly fancied that sounds like whispers issued from the box. The noise now seemed to increase, and she breathlessly applied her ear to the lid to ascertain whether it really proceeded from within. Imagine, therefore, her surprise when she distinctly heard these words, uttered in the most pitiful accents: " Pandora, dear Pandora, have pity upon us ! Free us from this gloomy prison! Open, open, we beseech you!"

Pandora's heart beat so fast and loud, that it seemed for a moment to drown all other sounds. Should she open the box ? Just then a familiar step outside made her start guiltily. Epimetheus was coming, and she knew he would urge her again to come out, and would prevent the gratification of her curiosity. Precipitately, therefore, she raised the lid to have one little peep before he came in.

Now, Jupiter had malignantly crammed into this box all the diseases, sorrows, vices, and crimes that afflict poor humanity; and the box was no sooner opened, than all these ills flew out, in the guise of horrid little brown-winged creatures, closely resembling moths. These little insects fluttered about, alighting, some upon Epimetheus, who had just entered, and some upon Pandora, pricking and stinging them most unmercifully. They then flew out through the open door and windows, and fastened upon the merrymakers without, whose shouts of joy were soon changed into wails of pain and anguish.

Epimetheus and Pandora had never before experienced the faintest sensation of pain or anger; but, as soon as these winged evil spirits had stung them, they began to weep, and, alas ! quarrelled for the first time in their lives. Epimetheus reproached his wife in bitterest terms for her thoughtless action;


Ouch,
cvj

PAUL WILLIAMSON
2006-02-12, 16:45
>>> cvj.234q0b (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com 02/12/06 1:29 PM >>>
>
>Perhaps a name change is in order on March 1, when the combined
>Squeezebox/Pandora product is unveiled?
>
>"Pandora's Box" would be a memorable product name - in which case,
>however, some serious marital discord might ensue, viz.

Nevermind that in Western NY, there is an "adult" news store with that
same name...