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dSw
2006-01-13, 16:21
I've tagged some of my DJ mixes with the "Mix" genre tag, together with several other genre tags such as "House", "Techno" etc. seperated by a semi-colon.

These mixes tend to last at least an hour and I was hoping that I could exclude them from Random Mix playlists by un-ticking the "Mix" genre in the "genres to include" setting, however, I am seeing these files being selected by Random mix.

I'm guessing it's because the files also appear in the db under the other genres in the tag, but surely if you exclude a file with a particular genre it should exclude all occurrences of it (no matter what other genres its listed under)?

BTW - it would be great if I could exclude files lasting longer than a certain duration!

ceejay
2006-01-13, 16:37
This was discussed recently in the Audiophiles forum... http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19855

And, no, you can't currently exclude a genre. You can only choose not to include, which if you have multiple genre values isn't the same thing, as you've just discovered!

Ceejay

dSw
2006-01-13, 16:50
Apologies. I did actually do a search before posting and I did read that thread but I obviously didn't fully absorb what you were saying!

I think what we are seeing is that the "genres to include" option does actually imply that un-ticking a genre will exclude it, and that due to SlimServers support for multiple items in tags users (like me) assume this will result in files with any of the un-ticked genres being excluded.

You must admit that the current behaviour doesn't really sit with the multiple item support in other parts of SlimServer.

I can only hope it will be improved soon!

slimpy
2006-01-13, 17:32
Apologies. I did actually do a search before posting and I did read that thread but I obviously didn't fully absorb what you were saying!

I think what we are seeing is that the "genres to include" option does actually imply that un-ticking a genre will exclude it, and that due to SlimServers support for multiple items in tags users (like me) assume this will result in files with any of the un-ticked genres being excluded.

You must admit that the current behaviour doesn't really sit with the multiple item support in other parts of SlimServer.

I can only hope it will be improved soon!
I completely disagree with you.
It clearly says above the checkboxes "Genres to include in your mix:". This does not mean that an unticked box excludes that genre, it merely doesn't include it.
I would hate seeing the current behaviour changed. I have many crossover albums that fit in two genres, eg. Rap;Jazz. I want these albums to be included in the mix if one of its genres is selected. If the behaviour was changed according to your suggestion an album tagged this way would probably never be played because it will not be in the mix if only one of its genres is ticked. Despite matching the selection criteria it would be excluded! If a checkbox is ticked all tracks containing that genre must be eligible for playing.
This is actually the same behaviour if you have a song tagged with two artists A and B: If you play all songs by artist A all songs will be played, including songs together with artist B. Your concept applied to artists would mean that choosing all songs by artist A would not play the songs with artist A and artist B.

Your suggestion can be implemented as an enhancement without breaking the existing behaviour by adding another set of checkboxes specifically for genre exclusion. The implementation must make sure that only one option can be selected at any time for any given genre. I think an enhancement request would be the right thing at this stage (if there isn't one yet).

-s.

dSw
2006-01-13, 17:48
I completely disagree with you.
It clearly says above the checkboxes "Genres to include in your mix:". This does not mean that an unticked box excludes that genre, it merely doesn't include it.

What exactly is the difference between not including a genre and excluding it? Surely they both have the same effect - a particular genre isn't included?


I would hate seeing the current behaviour changed.

OK, so people obviously want different behaviour. Basically what I am after is a way to exclude any files tagged with a certain genre from a mix, even if the file has other genres associated with it.

snarlydwarf
2006-01-13, 18:04
What exactly is the difference between not including a genre and excluding it? Surely they both have the same effect - a particular genre isn't included?


Yes and no.

Take something like Ray Charles singing a Christmas song.

If you tag it with 'R&B;Christmas' ...

With an inclusionary search it would be included as long as either 'R&B' or 'Christmas' was checked.

With an exclusionary search it would be included only if both tags were unchecked (or checked, depending on the wording of the selection screen).

The differenc between 'AND' and 'OR', basically.

(And, yes, it would be nice to exclude Christmas songs when it's not Christmas, hence why I would like a real way to -exclude- things from the mix.)

slimpy
2006-01-13, 18:21
The differenc between 'AND' and 'OR', basically.Right, short and sweat

(And, yes, it would be nice to exclude Christmas songs when it's not Christmas, hence why I would like a real way to -exclude- things from the mix.)Completely agree. As an enhancement to the current behaviour.

snarlydwarf
2006-01-13, 19:12
Right, short and sweat
Completely agree. As an enhancement to the current behaviour.


That works for me... unless I'm hallucinating (which happens :)), didn't someone suggest a tristate for the genres?

+ = Include
- = Exclude
(blank) = include if some other genre allows it

That would actually be a pretty simple way of presenting the UI to the user (at least through the player... the web interface would be trickier).

It would also really be nice to have 'SavedSelections' or something: sort of like a playlist, but really a ruleset for randomplay.

And, of course, a way to specify that in things like the Alarm plugin....

(And Max is probably whimpering "why on earth did I do this plugin?" now...)

JJZolx
2006-01-13, 19:47
That works for me... unless I'm hallucinating (which happens :)), didn't someone suggest a tristate for the genres?
Tristate would be one way. If not, I know I'd much prefer the alternative behavior, that of explicitly excluding those genres that are unchecked.

The example of tracks that are labeled both ROCK and CHRISTMAS comes to mind. Normally, if I want a mix of ROCK music, you can bet that I'd _really_ like to exclude the christmas music.

dSw
2006-01-14, 03:26
The differenc between 'AND' and 'OR', basically.


OK, your explanation makes sense, however that is certainly not clear from the wording "Genres to include in your mix:", which is ambiguous at best.

How about a single tickbox to choose whether you want inclusive or exclusive behaviour?

kweller
2006-01-14, 04:54
In article <dSw.21me7z (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>, DSw wrote:
> How about a single tickbox to choose whether you want inclusive or
> exclusive behaviour?

dBpowerAMP Audio player (dAP - www.dbpoweramp.com) handles this in a
really nice way IMO. A tick box has three states - '-', '+' and space.
'-' means don't include any track that has this genre, '+' means do
include any track that has this genre and space means I don't care.

These can be applied to artists and genres making a really powerful
selection mechanism. Unfortunately, in it's current release, it will
only handle a single genre in the tag although the database will hold
many genres (only the first gets written to the tag). Selection
configurations can then be saved and reloaded so, for example, I added
a dAP db tag of zBL to any tag that contains bad language and created a
selection criteria that excludes it. Whenever we had adults who might
be offended by it or children in the house I'd loaded the 'no bad
language' selection criteria. I did similar things for Exercising and
parties.

Unfortunately there's no way I know of to feed dAP output into
SoftSqueeze or Squeezeboxes so it doesn't help much but it might give
programmers ideas.

I'm staggered there's nothing around to take the output destined for
the audio card and turn it into some sort of input that can be used for
other programs on the PC (such as Slim). I had a play with Shoutcast
but didn't get anywhere although that may have just been me of course!
I confess I like the flexibility and usability of dAP so much that if
there was any way to feed its output into the Slim system I wouldn't
use any other way of playing my music.

Kevin

Robin Bowes
2006-01-17, 12:18
dSw said the following on 14/01/2006 10:26:
> snarlydwarf Wrote:
>> The differenc between 'AND' and 'OR', basically.
>>
>
> OK, your explanation makes sense, however that is certainly not clear
> from the wording "Genres to include in your mix:", which is ambiguous
> at best.

What's ambiguous sbout "Genres to include in your mix" ?

What other way could you read this but as "if I tick the box the genre
will be included" ?

R.
--
http://robinbowes.com

If a man speaks in a forest,
and his wife's not there,
is he still wrong?

dSw
2006-01-17, 14:00
What's ambiguous sbout "Genres to include in your mix" ?

What other way could you read this but as "if I tick the box the genre
will be included" ?


The ambiguous part is that it isn't clear what happens to the genres that are not ticked. For example, I read it as meaning unticked genres exclude any tracks having that genre, which is true.. but only for tracks with one genre.

Several posts have highlighted this confusion so it is clearly not clear! ;-)