PDA

View Full Version : Use Common Artist Titles and keep Various Artists



samplesj
2006-01-11, 20:38
I've played around some and I can't get exactly what I want to happen. In the past I've had my lists show various artist for variety compilations. I've got a decent number (good way to hear new artists) and really like that feature. When it is turned off I get entirely too many artists.

Everything was OK until this morning when I went to add more albums. Wally world had pop artist "greatest hits" albums for $10 so I got several for more variety for background music. Of course since "Common Album Title" was off I didn't see my new music right away. After a bit of digging I found the setting and turned it on. I tracked down all of my duplicate titles and now it all matches 100%.

However now I've lost Various Artists. My compilation settings are still "Group compilation albums together" and "List albums by band". I've tried setting them to something else and putting them back. I've rescanned a couple of times even. Once I turned on "Common Album Title" it was gone.

Unfortunately I want both. Is there some way to say use the common album titles, but still give me compilations?

Jeremy

samplesj
2006-01-13, 12:35
This really seems like a bug because I've told it to group compilations as various artists and it isn't. Anyone have any suggestions of other settings to change or should I go ahead and file a bug report?

Jon
2006-01-21, 23:10
I am in the process of ripping my entire collection, and today ran into exactly the same problem you describe. What I think is happening (at least to me) is that when I rip a compilation CD, sometimes my ripping tool tags it as a compilation, and other times it does not (which may have something to do with the tag data coming from freedb). When I looked at the tags in one tag editor (mp3tag) I did not notice anything amiss; but then I decided to try another tag editor (Tag&Rename) and, once I figured out how to navigate it (which seems somewhat tricky, at least to me) I noticed a field titled "Part of a compilation" that did not show up in mp3tag. To make a long story short ... I checked this box for all songs on the compilation, did a rescan in slimserver, and voila! problem solved. I should warn you that I've only tested this with two compilations - but it did seem to fix both.

If you decide to try Tag&Rename (I suspect that other tag editors will have this field available too, as long as they support flac or whatever compression you are using), make sure you click on the proper tag type first; then, if you double-click on a song from the compilation, you'll see the check box for "Part of a compilation" towards the right side of the screen. There must be a way to make this change for all songs at once, but I haven't figured that out yet (that's tomorrow's task).

Also, I tested doing a complete rescan versus just scanning for "new and changed music" in slimserver; thankfully, "new and changed music" appears to be sufficient.

Good luck ... I know from firsthand experience how frustrating this situation is!

samplesj
2006-01-23, 06:50
Thank you for the tip, that did in fact work just fine. Once I added the compliation tag it did properly list all of the albums.

So setting Common Titles requires all albums to be tagged with the compilation tag while not setting it doesn't.

BTW: In Tag&Rename you can actually select a bunch of files and choose the Multi File Tag Editor which has a edit all supported tags button. Choosing that and picking the part of a compliation does mark them all.

gregklanderman
2006-01-23, 09:16
> So setting Common Titles requires all albums to be tagged with the
> compilation tag while not setting it doesn't.

Hmm, this seems horribly broken. In order to get common titles and
various artists to work right I have to use the TCMP tag, which is not
part of the ID3 spec but rather an iTunes invention?

What happens if I have two different compilation albums with the same
name?

Why can't slimserver just compare the directories that songs are in?
Don't put songs from different directories in the same album, and if
the artists on the songs within a directory are different, then treat
as a various artists album.

I just upgraded from 6.1 to trunk (6.5) code last night, so I'll hold
further comment on various artist handling until I've played with it
some more..

greg

Dan Sully
2006-01-23, 09:49
* Greg Klanderman shaped the electrons to say...

>Why can't slimserver just compare the directories that songs are in?
>Don't put songs from different directories in the same album, and if
>the artists on the songs within a directory are different, then treat
>as a various artists album.

Unfortunately, everyone has a different theory on how to organize their
directories. We've seen some bizzare things, like putting all tracks from an
artist, no matter their album into the same directory. Tagging is a more
straightforward way of indicating what you want, and doesn't impact the
directory structure.

-D
--
<dr.pox> do they call it 'gq' because it makes your text fashionable?

gregklanderman
2006-01-23, 12:15
>>>>> Dan Sully <dan (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com> writes:

> Unfortunately, everyone has a different theory on how to organize their
> directories. We've seen some bizzare things, like putting all tracks from an
> artist, no matter their album into the same directory.

I don't doubt you've seen bizarre things, but it seems you can best
support the vast majority of users by looking at the directory. Why
not do that, and then have an option for those who feel the need to
store their files in incompatible ways?

Isn't there an albumid tag? Seems you could support that as an
alternative to using the directory. Would be so much cleaner.

> Tagging is a more straightforward way of indicating what you want,
> and doesn't impact the directory structure.

But even as it is you can't represent what you want with tags alone.
You have to change at least three options from their defaults, and
possibly populate a list of "common album names". Then you have to
add a non-standard ID3 tag iTunes invented and almost no software
supports to your music files, just to get reasonable behavior.

And why are the defaults the way they are? Does anyone really want
two albums with the same name by different artists combined? Does
anyone want every track of a compilation album to be treated as a
separate album?

greg

Dan Sully
2006-01-23, 12:23
* Greg Klanderman shaped the electrons to say...

>> Unfortunately, everyone has a different theory on how to organize their
>> directories. We've seen some bizzare things, like putting all tracks from an
>> artist, no matter their album into the same directory.
>
>I don't doubt you've seen bizarre things, but it seems you can best
>support the vast majority of users by looking at the directory. Why
>not do that, and then have an option for those who feel the need to
>store their files in incompatible ways?
>
>Isn't there an albumid tag? Seems you could support that as an
>alternative to using the directory. Would be so much cleaner.

There is - but that's the Greatest Hits problem. We do try and match by
directory first - the heuristics get pretty messy very fast.

See Slim/DataStores/DBI/DBIStore.pm - and sub _postAttributeCheck for more info.

>But even as it is you can't represent what you want with tags alone.
>You have to change at least three options from their defaults, and
>possibly populate a list of "common album names". Then you have to
>add a non-standard ID3 tag iTunes invented and almost no software
>supports to your music files, just to get reasonable behavior.

All it requires is the addition of the compilation flag, if that album is a
compilation. It may be a "non-standard" tag, but nothing about ID3 is
standard. It's much needed in my opinion. And the FLAC, Ogg, APE & WMA people
have no issues because it's either free-form tagging, or the format has an
explict compilation tag.

>And why are the defaults the way they are? Does anyone really want
>two albums with the same name by different artists combined? Does
>anyone want every track of a compilation album to be treated as a
>separate album?

See above - we try to do directory matching first.

-D
--
<Nigel> Please refrain from fearing the reaper.

Krobb
2006-01-24, 10:54
... you'll see the check box for "Part of a compilation" towards the right side of the screen. There must be a way to make this change for all songs at once, but I haven't figured that out yet ...
In Tag&Rename: select all tracks [Ctrl-A] > right-mouse-click > Edit Tag in Selected Files [Ctrl-F5]

That's it.

gregklanderman
2006-01-25, 16:32
>>>>> Dan Sully <dan (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com> writes:

>> Isn't there an albumid tag? Seems you could support that as an
>> alternative to using the directory. Would be so much cleaner.

> There is - but that's the Greatest Hits problem.

Hi Dan,

The "compilation" and "Greatest Hits" problems are different
manifestations of the same issue: which songs belong with which
albums?

> We do try and match by directory first - the heuristics get pretty
> messy very fast. See Slim/DataStores/DBI/DBIStore.pm - and sub
> _postAttributeCheck for more info.

Yep, pretty difficult to understand by reading the code and the
comments don't really inspire confidence that it's doing the right
thing.

If I understand correctly, you use the directory as follows: two songs
with the same directory, album title, and disc# (if grouping discs)
are put in the same album. This seems reasonable.

Then various other conditions may also result in putting two songs in
the same album: you look for an existing album that has the same title
(and possibly disc#) and

- if the COMPILATION tag is set, the existing album must also be a
compilation. [Q: what happens if I have 2 "Greatest Hits of the
70s" albums from different record labels? Seems the compilation
tag does not help you then.]

- if the album title is "common", the existing album must have the
same contributor.

> It may be a "non-standard" tag, but nothing about ID3 is standard.

I agree ID3 is a mess, but TCMP is much worse than non-standard: I see
no software for Linux that supports it. Someone mentioned Tag&Rename
which is Windows-only, and apparently iTunes supports it. I'm going
to have to WRITE CODE so I can add tags just to get slimserver to work
right (and I'm skeptical it will even then).

> All it requires is the addition of the compilation flag, if that
> album is a compilation.

Well, the compilation flag certainly does not solve the common album
title half of the problem.

Out of the box, slimserver has these defaults:

commonAlbumTitlesToggle => 0
variousArtistAutoIdentification => 0

If an average consumer installs it as is, they (like me) get 10,000
Maniacs' "MTV Unplugged" and Bob Dylan's "MTV Unplugged" combined into
a single album, and any compilation (since I highly doubt they'll have
the TCMP tag set) will have been dispersed across their library into
"single song" albums, and browse by artist will be polluted with lots
of artists with a single song. Will they be happy? Doubtful. I
would never recommend a SB to my dad, even thought he's relatively
computer savvy. Don't get me wrong, I love my SB, and I just got my
second yesterday. I'd just like it to do the right thing out of the
box for a non- technical user.

I'd argue even having commonAlbumTitlesToggle on by default doesn't
really help, as most of my common titles are not in your list. It's a
band-aid, not a solution.

Then there's the reason this thread started -- Jeremy found that
variousArtistAutoIdentification only works if you don't also turn on
commonAlbumTitlesToggle, unless you use TCMP. It's all very much not
intuitive.

The right thing IMO is:

1. if a song has an albumid tag, then that is definitive, group with
other songs that have the same albumid.
2. otherwise, group all songs that have the same directory, album
title, and possibly disc# (based on parameter) into albums.
3. get rid of variousArtistAutoIdentification,
commonAlbumTitlesToggle, etc and a bunch of cryptic logic.

Easy to understand for both developers and end users, and works right.

greg

Should I have moved this over to beta or developers?

Robin Bowes
2006-01-26, 02:41
Greg Klanderman said the following on 01/25/2006 11:32 PM:
>
> The right thing IMO is:
>
> 1. if a song has an albumid tag, then that is definitive, group with
> other songs that have the same albumid.
> 2. otherwise, group all songs that have the same directory, album
> title, and possibly disc# (based on parameter) into albums.
> 3. get rid of variousArtistAutoIdentification,
> commonAlbumTitlesToggle, etc and a bunch of cryptic logic.
>
> Easy to understand for both developers and end users, and works right.

I agree. Greg's explanation expresses perfectly how this should be done.

Two copies of the same track from the same album, but in different
directories should *not* be combined into the same "album".

R.

gregklanderman
2006-01-26, 08:44
>>>>> Robin Bowes <robin-lists (AT) robinbowes (DOT) com> writes:

> I agree. Greg's explanation expresses perfectly how this should be done.

Hi Robin,

Thanks for your support, and for reading through that very long post!

If you're interested in seeing how this would work (I have not yet
implemented the "albumid" part (my step 1) but that would only be
needed if you organize your music some bizarre way), set the "Group
compilation albums together" parameter and then apply the patch below.
You'll have to wipe the cache.

Now back to getting my "sort albums within Browse Artist by year"
patch working in 6.5.

cheers,
greg


Index: server/Slim/DataStores/DBI/DBIStore.pm
================================================== =================
--- server/Slim/DataStores/DBI/DBIStore.pm (revision 5821)
+++ server/Slim/DataStores/DBI/DBIStore.pm (working copy)
@@ -1795,7 +1795,7 @@

$::d_info && msg("_postCheckAttributes: Same album '$album' than previous track\n");

- } else {
+ } elsif (0) {

# Don't use year as a search criteria. Compilations in particular
# may have different dates for each track...
@@ -1874,6 +1874,9 @@
title => $album,
});
}
+ } else {
+ $::d_info && msg("_postCheckAttributes: Creating album '$album'\n");
+ $albumObj = Slim::DataStores::DBI::Album->create({ title => $album, });
}

# Associate cover art with this album, and keep it cached.

MrC
2006-01-27, 12:58
I also agree with this. I keep my music sorted in Artist/Album directories, and was flabbergasted when I discovered that Foreigner's "4" album was merged into Foreplay's "4" album as if they were the same album. I had to add a "4" to COMMON ALBUM TITLES to prevent that from happening.

kdf
2006-01-27, 13:16
Quoting MrC <MrC.22b7qn (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>:

>
> I also agree with this. I keep my music sorted in Artist/Album
> directories, and was flabbergasted when I discovered that Foreigner's
> "4" album was merged into Foreplay's "4" album as if they were the same
> album. I had to add a "4" to COMMON ALBUM TITLES to prevent that from
> happening.

it would have somethign to do with other users who organise their files
differently and are just as flabbergasted when they discover that an
album has been split into pieces JUST because it is in different
directories and ignoring their carefully created tags.

yeah, I know...another pref, and do it without a rescan required :)

-kdf