PDA

View Full Version : Genre Question



dfk
2005-10-25, 15:23
Hi

When adding genre such as 60's 70's to my tags I notice that these genre are grouped under 's when browsing genre under SlimServer. Is there anyway to show the genre as it was entered? I suppose I could use sixtees, seventies but I would prefer numbers.

Dan Sully
2005-10-25, 15:26
* dfk shaped the electrons to say...

>When adding genre such as 60's 70's to my tags I notice that these
>genre are grouped under 's when browsing genre under SlimServer. Is
>there anyway to show the genre as it was entered? I suppose I could
>use sixtees, seventies but I would prefer numbers.

Please email me one of the files with that tag offlist.

Thanks.

-D
--
Ya gotta love UNIX, where else do you wonder whether
you can kill a zombie spawned by a daemon's fork?

mherger
2005-10-25, 23:07
> When adding genre such as 60's 70's to my tags I notice that these

Wouldn't "60s" and "60s" be correct and work?

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Help translate SlimServer by using the
SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)

dfk
2005-10-29, 07:01
> When adding genre such as 60's 70's to my tags I notice that these

Wouldn't "60s" and "60s" be correct and work?

--

Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Help translate SlimServer by using the
SlimString Translation Helper (http://www.herger.net/slim/)

SlimServer Version: 6.5b1 - 4925 - Windows XP - EN - cp1252

Hi Michael

No and its driving me nuts :-) I have the latest build, I have deleted the cache folder and let the server rescan. It seems that Slimserver cannot handle numbers in genres... All my 70s, 70's 60s, 60's etc are all coming under the genre of 's

Any chance of a fix?

dfk

ceejay
2005-10-29, 07:17
I don't have the genre "60's" in use, but I do have several albums tagged "20thC" and they are being handled correctly. So its not as simple as "can't handle numbers".

One relevant point might be that mine are all multiple-tagged (e.g. "Classical;20thC") so you might try the workaround of tagging as "zzdummy;60's" and enable multiple genres with a ; separator.

I'm using SS 6.2.0 on Win XP.

Just a thought...

Ceejay

dfk
2005-10-29, 07:25
I don't have the genre "60's" in use, but I do have several albums tagged "20thC" and they are being handled correctly. So its not as simple as "can't handle numbers".

One relevant point might be that mine are all multiple-tagged (e.g. "Classical;20thC") so you might try the workaround of tagging as "zzdummy;60's" and enable multiple genres with a ; separator.

I'm using SS 6.2.0 on Win XP.

Just a thought...

Ceejay

Hi Ceejay

Thanks for the tip but its a bit long winded just to get something that should work, to work! Could you re-tag a few of your files to 60's or 60s and let me know if that works for you using the same build as myself?

Thanks

ceejay
2005-10-29, 08:07
Hi Ceejay

Thanks for the tip but its a bit long winded just to get something that should work, to work! Could you re-tag a few of your files to 60's or 60s and let me know if that works for you using the same build as myself?

Thanks


OK... as a quick test I did re-tag an album with the genre of 60's ... and it correctly shows up as that genre when I browse genres. So there must be some difference somewhere. I'm running 6.2.0 on Win XP Pro SP2, and can't imagine what else might be relevant...

Ceejay

dfk
2005-10-29, 10:13
OK... as a quick test I did re-tag an album with the genre of 60's ... and it correctly shows up as that genre when I browse genres. So there must be some difference somewhere. I'm running 6.2.0 on Win XP Pro SP2, and can't imagine what else might be relevant...

Ceejay

Well I am really baffled now :-) Does 'Browse Genre' show 60's A B C D E F G etc? Do the numbers show up before the alphabetical items? No matter what I do in the genre tag as far as adding numbers are concerned, and even with a complete re-scan, they do not show up in the 'Browse Genre' section of the server. Also using XP(home)SP2 but SlimServer Version: 6.5b1 - 4925.

dfk
2005-10-29, 10:32
so you might try the workaround of tagging as "zzdummy;60's" and enable multiple genres with a ; separator.


ceejay

I tried your idea and it works! Wonder why?.......

dfk

norderney
2005-10-29, 10:46
I too have problems with Gendres begining with numbers. I have set up Gendres 60s Pop, 70s Pop, 80s Pop etc, and when I Browse Gendre they appear as - s Pop !!!!

I am running SlimServer ver 6.2b2 4708.

I hope a fix is possible because I can not face re-tagging the gendre field, I have over 14,500 songs!!!!

Hope this helps

dfk
2005-10-29, 10:54
I too have problems with Gendres begining with numbers. I have set up Gendres 60s Pop, 70s Pop, 80s Pop etc, and when I Browse Gendre they appear as - s Pop !!!!

I am running SlimServer ver 6.2b2 4708.

I hope a fix is possible because I can not face re-tagging the gendre field, I have over 14,500 songs!!!!

Hope this helps

It helps a great deal :-) Same problem as myself and we are using different releases of the server! If you follow ceejay's suggestion it is a way around the problem and would work well for you as you could use 60s;Pop 70s;Pop and you will find that the same albums appear in both genres 60s and Pop, 70s and Pop etc.

Alas, I don't tag that way, I just prefer all my 70's albums under one genre of 70's etc But it don't work :-(

dfk
2005-10-29, 11:14
I have reported it as Bug#: 2423

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2423

David Alexander
2005-10-29, 19:17
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:32:33 -0700, dfk
<dfk.1xockc (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
>ceejay Wrote:
>> so you might try the workaround of tagging as "zzdummy;60's" and enable
>> multiple genres with a ; separator.
>>
>
>ceejay
>
>I tried your idea and it works! Wonder why?.......
>
>dfk


Are you using version 1 or version 2 id3 tags? In version 1 tags the
genres are actually stored as numbers which are indexed to a fixed
table of genre names. If you add a genre that starts with a number
the software will likely misinterpret it. Version 2 id3 tags allow
you to freeform your own genre names. Perhaps you have both v1 and v2
tags at the same time and slimserver is getting confused? Try making
sure there are no v1 tags at all in your files and see if that helps.

ceejay
2005-10-30, 06:26
Are you using version 1 or version 2 id3 tags? In version 1 tags the
genres are actually stored as numbers which are indexed to a fixed
table of genre names. If you add a genre that starts with a number
the software will likely misinterpret it. Version 2 id3 tags allow
you to freeform your own genre names. Perhaps you have both v1 and v2
tags at the same time and slimserver is getting confused? Try making
sure there are no v1 tags at all in your files and see if that helps.

Looking back through the thread, I note that no-one has mentioned what types of files we are working with! I am using FLAC. If others are using MP3's then we probably need to know that, and (as suggested here) which type of tags are in use.

Ceejay

CavesOfTQLT
2005-10-30, 06:49
To be pedantic the tags should be

'60s
'70s
'80s
'90s
'00s

etc. The ' is used to show that the 19 or 20 is missing.

I have my tags set this way and they appear as they should do on the Squeezebox and web UI.

dfk
2005-10-30, 07:31
To be pedantic the tags should be

'60s
'70s
'80s
'90s
'00s

etc. The ' is used to show that the 19 or 20 is missing.

I have my tags set this way and they appear as they should do on the Squeezebox and web UI.

Hey CavesOfTQLT

Thanks for the tip! This works, and shows tags as '70s '60s etc. It is a shame that I can't just have 70's without the leading ' or even just 70s etc.

What happens if you remove the leading '? Do your 70s tags dissapear at all?

This is a good workaround as is the Multiple Items In Tags suggestion but still, a workaround! It is slightly bemusing that after buying this great device the software lets it down.

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 09:37
dfk: Did you ever send the sample file to Dan?
Dan: what did the tags look like?
I'm fairly familiar with ID3 tags ... if I knew what I was looking for, I might find a problem in the code, even with my imperfect perl knowledge.

dfk
2005-10-30, 10:04
dfk: Did you ever send the sample file to Dan?
Dan: what did the tags look like?
I'm fairly familiar with ID3 tags ... if I knew what I was looking for, I might find a problem in the code, even with my imperfect perl knowledge.

Hi

Dan Sully does not accept email on this forum (he may for others but his profile will not allow me to send). I sent him a PM to ask for further advice about sending him a sample file, but to date I have not had a reply. I appreciate he is busy, so have not took it any further.

dfk
2005-10-30, 10:18
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:32:33 -0700, dfk
<dfk.1xockc (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
>ceejay Wrote:
>> so you might try the workaround of tagging as "zzdummy;60's" and enable
>> multiple genres with a ; separator.
>>
>
>ceejay
>
>I tried your idea and it works! Wonder why?.......
>
>dfk

Try making sure there are no v1 tags at all in your files and see if that helps.

David

Hi, I tried yuor suggestion and removed the ID3v1 tags but it made no difference. I am using 'The Godfather' to apply my tags.

http://users.otenet.gr/~jtcliper/tgf/

dfk

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 10:18
Sounds like an oversight to me.

Send it to me, then. Michael at thewagners dot ca

In the mean time, Dan, if you're out there? Here's the snippet of code responsible, I expect. It's in CPAN/MP3/Info.pm


} elsif ($id =~ /^TCON?$/) {
if ($data =~ /^ \(? (\d+) (?:\)|\000)? (.+)?/sx) {
my($index, $name) = ($1, $2);
if ($name && $name ne "\000") {
$data = $name;
} else {
$data = $mp3_genres[$index];
}
}

It's been many years since sed and awk, but this appear to look for TCON (or TCO, for some reason I can't begin to guess) tags (which are always V2) and then tries to figure out if they should be treated as V1 tags - should never happen.

If they start with leading digits and colons, they are totally mishandled.

This code seems to be expecting genres of the form
1: rock
2: pop
3: whatever

But that's not part of ID3, no version I've ever seen.

In any case, it will eat leading digits in genres for lunch. I think this is the problem.

This code is replete with V1isms that seem to have persisted into V2 ID3 tags. Not sure why. I understand this code came from CPAN ... so I'm not sure how one goes about getting it fixed. ...

Pale Blue Ego
2005-10-30, 10:20
60's isn't even correct English. It's a possessive where none is required. 60s, '60s or Sixties would be correct English.

CavesOfTQLT
2005-10-30, 10:21
dfk I've never tried it without the leading ' on SlimServer as I like things to be correct.

Way back when I started tagging my music I used to use the 70's convention, but later remembered that this is the wrong use of English as it implies something belonging to something called 70, and not a collection of things from the 1970s! So I then started changing them to 70s before realising that that's wrong too, so I put in the leading apostrophe. And that's the way I've tagged files ever since... The leading ' doesn't bother me when browsing the music on the SB or WebUI.

dfk
2005-10-30, 10:25
dfk I've never tried it without the leading ' on SlimServer as I like things to be correct.

Way back when I started tagging my music I used to use the 70's convention, but later remembered that this is the wrong use of English as it implies something belonging to something called 70, and not a collection of things from the 1970s! So I then started changing them to 70s before realising that that's wrong too, so I put in the leading apostrophe. And that's the way I've tagged files ever since... The leading ' doesn't bother me when browsing the music on the SB or WebUI.

Hi

Fair enough, you tag your way I'll tag mine :-) My point is that why should it matter to the program how a person prefers to use English in tags? '70s 70s 70's should all be the same to the software should it not? Or can someone give me a good reason as to why it should not?

Thanks

dean
2005-10-30, 10:26
On Oct 30, 2005, at 9:04 AM, dfk wrote:
> Dan Sully does not accept email on this forum. I sent him a PM to ask
> for further advice about sending him a sample file, but to date I have
> not had a reply.
I'm sure that this was not intentional. When I finally noticed that
I didn't have PM notification turned on, I found I had a bunch of
queued up PM messages. Dan can be reached directly at
dan (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com

stinkingpig
2005-10-30, 10:27
dfk wrote:

>Michaelwagner Wrote:
>
>
>>dfk: Did you ever send the sample file to Dan?
>>Dan: what did the tags look like?
>>I'm fairly familiar with ID3 tags ... if I knew what I was looking for,
>>I might find a problem in the code, even with my imperfect perl
>>knowledge.
>>
>>
>
>Hi
>
>Dan Sully does not accept email on this forum. I sent him a PM to ask
>for further advice about sending him a sample file, but to date I have
>not had a reply. I appreciate he is busy, so have not took it any
>further.
>
>
>
>
whatever, dude -- he posted his email address just yesterday asking for
a file. It, like all the other SDI addresses, is pretty easy to figure
out. firstname (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com.

PMs are only seen by people who log into the forum software, which many
of us do not do... for us it is a mailing list.

--
Jack At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin
so across the Western ocean I must wander" -- trad.

dfk
2005-10-30, 10:28
60's isn't even correct English. It's a possessive where none is required. 60s, '60s or Sixties would be correct English.

Hi

I did a quick search term for 70's music using Google, and it came back with:

6,010,000 results. That an awful lot of bad English :-)

dfk

dfk
2005-10-30, 10:33
[QUOTE=stinkingpig]dfk wrote:

>Michaelwagner Wrote:
>
>
>>dfk: Did you ever send the sample file to Dan?
>>Dan: what did the tags look like?
>>I'm fairly familiar with ID3 tags ... if I knew what I was looking for,
>>I might find a problem in the code, even with my imperfect perl
>>knowledge.
>>
>>
>
>Hi
>
>Dan Sully does not accept email on this forum. I sent him a PM to ask
>for further advice about sending him a sample file, but to date I have
>not had a reply. I appreciate he is busy, so have not took it any
>further.
>
>
>
>
whatever, dude -- he posted his email address just yesterday asking for
a file. It, like all the other SDI addresses, is pretty easy to figure
out. [email]firstname (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com[/email

Hey, it might be easy for you to figure out man! I was not having a go or complaining, in FACT I said that I was being considerate of his time. DUDE.........

stinkingpig
2005-10-30, 10:39
dfk wrote:

> ...
>
>>>Hi
>>>
>>>Dan Sully does not accept email on this forum. I sent him a PM to
>>>
>>>
>>ask
>>
>>
>>>for further advice about sending him a sample file, but to date I
>>>
>>>
>>have
>>
>>
>>>not had a reply. I appreciate he is busy, so have not took it any
>>>further.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>whatever, dude -- he posted his email address just yesterday asking for
>>
>>a file. It, like all the other SDI addresses, is pretty easy to figure
>>
>>out. [email]firstname (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com[/email
>>
>>Hey, it might be easy for you to figure out man! I was not having a go
>>or complaining, in FACT I said that I was being considerate of his
>>time. DUDE.........
>>
>>

sorry, didn't mean to start anything.

--
Jack At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin
so across the Western ocean I must wander" -- trad.

dfk
2005-10-30, 10:39
On Oct 30, 2005, at 9:04 AM, dfk wrote:
> Dan Sully does not accept email on this forum. I sent him a PM to ask
> for further advice about sending him a sample file, but to date I have
> not had a reply.
I'm sure that this was not intentional. When I finally noticed that
I didn't have PM notification turned on, I found I had a bunch of
queued up PM messages. Dan can be reached directly at
dan (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com


Dean

Thanks for your reply. I am also sure that Dan has not gone out of his way not to answer my PM. As I said, I appreciate he is busy. I thought that as I was still having difficulty and that the thread was still active, that I might find an answer from other members of the forum. It is not life or death that this works for me, it would just be nice to fathom out why for some members such as ceejay, that the problem does not exist and yet it does for me.

I have every confidence that the "Dream Makers" in this forum will find answers.

pfarrell
2005-10-30, 10:51
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 09:28 -0800, dfk wrote:
> Pale Blue Ego Wrote:
> > 60's isn't even correct English. It's a possessive where none is
> > required. 60s, '60s or Sixties would be correct English.
> I did a quick search term for 70's music using Google, and it came back
> with: 6,010,000 results. That an awful lot of bad English :-)

Just don't google for modifiers to "unique" used by the educated media
folks and copywriters.

And some point, even OED accepts common usage.
Hopefully, it's all the same most unique correct to me.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 10:58
My point is that why should it matter to the program how a person prefers to use English in tags? '70s 70s 70's should all be the same to the software should it not? Correct.

Or can someone give me a good reason as to why it should not?The code clearly has something else in mind. I'm not sure what, since it isn't commented as to why it deviates from standards. In other places in the code, it says "this is to compensate for a bug in iTunes" (or something similar) but there's no indication why this piece of code is there. Perhaps a misunderstanding on the part of the author. But it looks wrong to me.

dfk
2005-10-30, 11:00
sorry, didn't mean to start anything.

--
Jack At Monkeynoodle Dot Org: It's A Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin
so across the Western ocean I must wander" -- trad.

Jack

Thanks for the apology. I found the tone of your email to be in poor spirit. Lets forget about it and shake :-)

I have not been here long enough to cause a riot yet :-)

Dave

dfk
2005-10-30, 11:15
Correct.
The code clearly has something else in mind. I'm not sure what, since it isn't commented as to why it deviates from standards. In other places in the code, it says "this is to compensate for a bug in iTunes" (or something similar) but there's no indication why this piece of code is there. Perhaps a misunderstanding on the part of the author. But it looks wrong to me.

Michael

I have sent of a sample file to Dan, who has just PM'd me to say he has got the file.

Thanks to everyone for your advice over this issue which is appreciated.

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 11:16
I found this confusing section in the ID3V2.4.0 documents:


TCON
The 'Content type', which ID3v1 was stored as a one byte numeric value only, is now a string. You may use one or several of the ID3v1 types as numerical strings, or, since the category list would be impossible to maintain with accurate and up to date categories, define your own. Example: "21" $00 "Eurodisco" $00

You may also use any of the following keywords:

RX Remix
CR Cover
This is confusing because it appear to syntactically conflict with the previous standard.

In the id3V2.3.0 docs, it says:


TCON
The 'Content type', which previously was stored as a one byte numeric value only, is now a numeric string. You may use one or several of the types as ID3v1.1 did or, since the category list would be impossible to maintain with accurate and up to date categories, define your own.

References to the ID3v1 genres can be made by, as first byte, enter "(" followed by a number from the genres list (appendix A.) and ended with a ")" character. This is optionally followed by a refinement, e.g. "(21)" or "(4)Eurodisco". Several references can be made in the same frame, e.g. "(51)(39)". If the refinement should begin with a "(" character it should be replaced with "((", e.g. "((I can figure out any genre)" or "(55)((I think...)". The following new content types is defined in ID3v2 and is implemented in the same way as the numerig content types, e.g. "(RX)".

RX Remix
CR Cover


This seems closer to what our regexp programmer was trying to do, but then he got it wrong. Or else old godfather got it wrong when it encoded your 60's tag and understood it as (60)'s. I'll need to see the file tags before figuring out which is wrong. But I'm pretty sure the code is wrong in any case.

kdf
2005-10-30, 11:38
On 30-Oct-05, at 9:39 AM, dfk wrote:
> . I am also sure that Dan has not gone out of his
> way not to answer my PM.
I am fairly certain that Dan does not use these forums through the web.
Private Messages ONLY appear
when you are logged into the forum web pages. Forum messages also go
out via email (which is how I access this)
as well as gmane news. As such, PM is not a reliable way to contact
anyone, since you cannot know when they might get seen.

bug reports are a good way to get issues addressed, and you have a bug
report on this (I've noticed).

Dan will get to it.

-k

Dan Sully
2005-10-30, 12:12
* Michaelwagner shaped the electrons to say...

>I found this confusing section in the ID3V2.4.0 documents:

Everything about the ID3 specs are confusing. :)

>This seems closer to what our regexp programmer was trying to do, but
>then he got it wrong. Or else old godfather got it wrong when it
>encoded your 60's tag and understood it as (60)'s. I'll need to see the
>file tags before figuring out which is wrong. But I'm pretty sure the
>code is wrong in any case.

I've checked in a fix: http://svn.slimdevices.com/?rev=4947&view=rev

-D
--
Indifference will certainly be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?

dfk
2005-10-30, 12:33
I've checked in a fix: http://svn.slimdevices.com/?rev=4947&view=rev

-D


Dan

Thanks for the fix in 10-31-2005 nightly. I only wish I understood Perl so I could follow what the problem was :-)

Thanks to everyone who replied in this thread.

dfk

danco
2005-10-30, 12:40
So my SB2 with 6.2 SlimServer has been going along fine with WEP set.

I decided to upgrade to WPA2. All seems fine as far as the network
itself is concerned. At least, my Mac sees both the main Airport
Extreme base station and the remote one (set up as WDS network).

The SB sees the WDS network, but refuses to connect to it.

Obvious possible error would be a wrong password, but I have double
checked that it is correct..

Any other suggestions, or should I return to WEP?

It also occurs to me that at some upgrade of the firmware it would be
nice to have more feedback on this, such as "password not accepted"
and other error messages.
--
Daniel Cohen

pfarrell
2005-10-30, 12:52
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 11:12 -0800, Dan Sully wrote:
> * Michaelwagner shaped the electrons to say...
>
> >I found this confusing section in the ID3V2.4.0 documents:
>
> Everything about the ID3 specs are confusing. :)

Very true. And there is no evidence that there is any official
ID3 spec, or process for revision, or design for upward
compatibility, etc.

I've not ever seen a reference to even a committee meeting between the
interested parties. While the IETF and OSI and IEEE process can be
slow and boring, they prevent the kinds of unannounced changes
that plague ID3.


--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

dean
2005-10-30, 14:37
What access point and firmware version are you using?

Is it WPA (TKIP) or WPA2 (AES)? The WPA2 is a newer standard and a
new feature in SB2, so less compatibility testing has been done and
there are likely more bugs in both the access points as well as SB2
with WPA2. Details would be welcome and help us help you find out
what's wrong.

-dean

On Oct 30, 2005, at 11:40 AM, Daniel Cohen wrote:

> So my SB2 with 6.2 SlimServer has been going along fine with WEP set.
>
> I decided to upgrade to WPA2. All seems fine as far as the network
> itself is concerned. At least, my Mac sees both the main Airport
> Extreme base station and the remote one (set up as WDS network).
>
> The SB sees the WDS network, but refuses to connect to it.
>
> Obvious possible error would be a wrong password, but I have double
> checked that it is correct..
>
> Any other suggestions, or should I return to WEP?
>
> It also occurs to me that at some upgrade of the firmware it would
> be nice to have more feedback on this, such as "password not
> accepted" and other error messages.
> --
> Daniel Cohen
>

danco
2005-10-30, 15:59
My post seems to have got mixed up in the wrong thread (I posted by email, not on the forum), as it has nothing to do with ID3 tags. I have posted again, having found the right thread.

As noted (in my post on the other thread), as far as I can see WPA works but WPA2 does not.

I had a bit of a hassle setting up my access points, because I am using a WDS setup.

Both are Airport Extreme access points (the nearer one being connected by ethernet to my router), with version 5.6 firmware and 4.2 software

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 18:17
Everything about the ID3 specs are confusing. :)True. And not truly well specified. And not well obeyed even by those claiming to do so. Witness the comments in the code about iTunes broken-ness.

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 18:24
I only wish I understood Perl so I could follow what the problem was :-)Basically, the programmer who wrote that module misinterpreted the standard and therefore miscoded.

The very first version of the ID3 tag standard allowed for a fixed number of genres, and they were numbered. 60 I think. And had an enumerated list of them.

In the next revision, they decided this was too restrictive. So they made genres character strings. But they left a provision that you could use the old genres, in a multitude of ways:

1. just a single number - means use the old genre

2. (number) - means the same as above

3. (number)(number)(number) - the song fits into several of the old style genres

4. (number)refinement - the song is like old genre "number" but with a text string as a refinement.

The original programmer mistakenly didn't require the opening bracket in case 4, so your 60's tag was being taken as genre 60, refinement 's.

Sorry, it's not a simple explanation, but it wasn't a simple problem to figure out either.

Hope this helps.

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 18:36
there is no evidence that there is any official ID3 specWell, there is this web site: http://www.id3.org


or process for revision, or design for upward compatibility, etc. I've not ever seen a reference to even a committee meeting between the interested parties.Truly the antithesis of an open and transparent process ...

As far as I can tell, it's just one guy writing the standards, although there is some kind of mailing list ...

pfarrell
2005-10-30, 19:26
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 17:36 -0800, Michaelwagner wrote:
> pfarrell Wrote:
> > there is no evidence that there is any official ID3 spec
> Well, there is this web site: http://www.id3.org

Yes, there is, but there is no evidence that it is official.
No list of members, no list of meetings,

> > or process for revision, or design for upward compatibility, etc. I've
> > not ever seen a reference to even a committee meeting between the
> > interested parties.Truly the antithesis of an open and transparent process ...
>
> As far as I can tell, it's just one guy writing the standards, although
> there is some kind of mailing list ...

Real standards either glom onto an existing standards body, like IEEE, W3C, OSI,
ietf, etc. or are setup by a group of vendors who usually trademark the
name, logo, etc. In any case, you can't just say you are compliant
without doing whatever the standards body says.

I agree that it looks like one guy is trying to coordinate and publish
the standards. And he (or she) deserves thanks for the effort.

But as a standard for someone to use to write working and interoperable
code, ID3 is terrible. Maybe the worst that I've ever tried to work
with. (and I have worked with ANS.1, SET, and other really
wonderfully bad specs).

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 20:32
But as a standard for someone to use to write working and interoperable code, ID3 is terrible. Maybe the worst that I've ever tried to work with.True. I've written code to read ID3 tags, and was stymied by ambiguities in the document, contradictions between different versions of the same standard, lack of examples, lack of a test suite, etc.

Maybe the worst that I've ever tried to work with.Oh, I think RFC822 and followons rival it. Not that 822 isn't clear. But in point of fact no one follows the standards much, so what you really have to do to parse email headers is a lot of other stuff besides, that is nowhere documented.

pfarrell
2005-10-30, 21:25
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 19:32 -0800, Michaelwagner wrote:
> pfarrell Wrote:
> > But as a standard for someone to use to write working and interoperable
> > code, ID3 is terrible. Maybe the worst that I've ever tried to work
> > with.

> True. I've written code to read ID3 tags, and was stymied by ambiguities
> in the document, contradictions between different versions of the same
> standard, lack of examples, lack of a test suite, etc.

I think this is the universal reaction. My code, in Java has been on my
website for ages.

> > Maybe the worst that I've ever tried to work with.

> Oh, I think RFC822 and followons rival it. Not that 822 isn't clear. But
> in point of fact no one follows the standards much, so what you really
> have to do to parse email headers is a lot of other stuff besides, that
> is nowhere documented.

I liked 822. Of course, I knew the guys who wrote it, used a
Tops-20/Tenex machine that used the syntax that it refers to,
so it all makes sense to me.

But doesn't everyone just use some library rather than implementing
mail from the RFCs?

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

Michaelwagner
2005-10-30, 22:27
But doesn't everyone just use some library rather than implementing mail from the RFCs?Maybe now. Not sure. I did this work 18 years ago. We wrote our own parsing routines (assisted by a parser generator, if memory serves).

But it was so long ago now, I'm not sure any more.

dfk
2005-10-31, 11:18
Basically, the programmer who wrote that module misinterpreted the standard and therefore miscoded.

The very first version of the ID3 tag standard allowed for a fixed number of genres, and they were numbered. 60 I think. And had an enumerated list of them.

In the next revision, they decided this was too restrictive. So they made genres character strings. But they left a provision that you could use the old genres, in a multitude of ways:

1. just a single number - means use the old genre

2. (number) - means the same as above

3. (number)(number)(number) - the song fits into several of the old style genres

4. (number)refinement - the song is like old genre "number" but with a text string as a refinement.

The original programmer mistakenly didn't require the opening bracket in case 4, so your 60's tag was being taken as genre 60, refinement 's.

Sorry, it's not a simple explanation, but it wasn't a simple problem to figure out either.

Hope this helps.

Michael

I understood that explanation. If the programmer forgot to add (number) then your left whith the refinement of just 's and nothing before it.

The only curiosity I have with any of this, is that how come no one ever noticed that this was a problem before I mentioned it? Either everyone who used a genre of 's was inputting them in (as was pointed out in this thread) correct English :-) Or, no one is using genres of 60's 70's etc.

ceejay said earlier in this thread that he has succesfully applied a test of 70's but if SlimServer was at fault how could he manage that? Just curious....

Regards

Dave

Dan Sully
2005-10-31, 11:29
* dfk shaped the electrons to say...

>ceejay said earlier in this thread that he has succesfully applied a
>test of 70's but if SlimServer was at fault how could he manage that?
>Just curious....

Perhaps he wasn't using MP3s as his test case.

-D
--
<nil> It sucks to discover that you are the foremost authority on some set of things when you've got a problem.

dfk
2005-10-31, 11:37
* dfk shaped the electrons to say...

>ceejay said earlier in this thread that he has succesfully applied a
>test of 70's but if SlimServer was at fault how could he manage that?
>Just curious....

Perhaps he wasn't using MP3s as his test case.



Dan thats a good answer :-) No MP3 no tag problem...

Thanks for the fix BTW.

Dave

ceejay
2005-10-31, 11:44
* dfk shaped the electrons to say...

>ceejay said earlier in this thread that he has succesfully applied a
>test of 70's but if SlimServer was at fault how could he manage that?
>Just curious....

Perhaps he wasn't using MP3s as his test case.



FLAC, actually. See post 14 in this thread ;)

Glad we've got to the bottom of it, though.

Ceejay

Michaelwagner
2005-10-31, 11:50
The code that reads tags in MP3s is different than the code that reads tags in FLAC. So that might be the difference. Also, from my reading of the code, a leading space or other whitespace (that you might not notice) would cause the bug to be bypassed. All sorts of posibilities ... sometimes in code the oddest bugs remain unnoticed for the longest times ...

The ID3 spec says the same tags are used in other situations, like FLAC, but at least in the current Slim code, no advantage is taken of that parallelism (if indeed it's even correct - I haven't taken the time to check yet). Might be something to check out.

Marc Sherman
2005-10-31, 11:54
Michaelwagner wrote:
>
> It's been many years since sed and awk, but this appear to look for
> TCON (or TCO, for some reason I can't begin to guess) tags (which are
> always V2) and then tries to figure out if they should be treated as V1
> tags - should never happen.

ID3v2.2 used 3 letter tag names, such as TCO.
http://www.id3.org/id3v2-00.txt

- Marc

Michaelwagner
2005-11-04, 12:03
ID3v2.2 used 3 letter tag names, such as TCO.
http://www.id3.org/id3v2-00.txtWell, will you look at that! I started getting into this around the time of 2.3, so I never went back and looked. I just assumed the upwards compatability thing worked.

So really, the code should work as follows:
if 2.2 accept 3 letter tags,
if 2.3 or greater, accept 4 letter tags

Right?